Is it possible to separate CHURCH & STATE?

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   poeticmentorposted 12 years ago

   Is this idea causing our youth to become immoral? Why go to these extents just to SEPARATE GOD & KNOWLEDGE..does it make sense? When I was young my class said the pledge of allegiance every morning and spoke the words "one nation under GOD", now it's a crime, really? What are your thoughts about how this has affected our teachers and our children and our world.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      There is no such thing as separation of church and state.  Even though the Left would have us believe that, and even though there is (in America) a separation of anti-Christian religions and state.  Or should be.
      
      The Founding Fathers never meant for faith in God to be separate from politics.  They simply meant that no one should be forced to be a Christian.  However, our laws were (and should remain) based upon the fact that there is a Creator, and that that Creator's laws are the correct basis for human law.

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         livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         If that were the case, divorce would be illegal. It isn't. Aren't you happy about that?

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            Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            What's the matter, livelonger?  You didn't want to answer the question about Obama in the other thread?   My my.  Your diversion attempts have become so obvious, it ain't even funny.
            
            However, it is rather flattering that you find me more interesting than Obama....

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               livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I asked you a question that I thought it would be easy to answer, and which is certainly relevant to your assertion that all laws should be based on Biblical law. I'm not surprised you didn't want to answer it, because it would expose how you don't believe that assertion yourself.

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                  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I'll say this in the radically-optimistic hope beyond hope that you might be able to get a glimmer of understanding about it----
                  The old Jewish laws were correct, yes; they were God's laws.  And those laws aren't dissolved at all; the literal punishment for them in this life has just been softened.  People who lie or steal or do adultery or homosexuality are worthy (according to those strict laws) of being stoned, even to death, just as ALL sin is death-worthy!  God's laws are strict, because He is holy!  And He gave us those laws to show His omnipotence, to draw us to Him as worshippers of Him, to make us thankful for the things He did for us because He loved us.  Some of those laws (actually, most of those) weren't "doable" by mankind.
                  
                  Ezekiel 20: 25:
                  "Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should (could) not live."  Verse 26 says it was so that "they might know that I am the Lord."
                  
                  Jesus was (and is) the intermediary (mediator) between God and man.  He was the only person who was able to live a totally sinless, perfect, pure life on earth.
                  
                  So, when Jesus came and offered us the option of repentance leading to forgiveness, it made it possible to avoid both physical punishment for those sins PLUS eternal punishment IF we repent.  Today's laws follow that combination of old Jewish law plus the mercy contained in Jesus's teachings.  The Apostle Peter was sent a vision whereby God told him that eating certain meats was no longer forbidden, etc.   The old Jewish laws were ritualistic, using animals as sacrifices, etc.   Jesus's entry into the world made Him the ultimate sacrifice, His blood replacing the blood of animals as worthy sacrifices.
                  
                  America's laws have integrated that type of mercy on many sinful ways and crimes.  Of course, we have to have some sort of literal punishment for murdering, rape, etc., because we cannot allow committers of those types of crimes to go freely unpunished or restrained.  But sins of the heart like adultery and homosexuality are indeed still wrong too (with some qualifying factors of course like unfaithfulness in marriage or a person being seduced or raped whether heterosexual or homosexual) but are no longer subject to the literal punishment of stoning,  they're covered under the blood of Christ in the cases of those who accept His sacrifice and Love Him and follow Him.
                  In America, you don't see anyone stoned to death because they're liars nor adulterers nor homosexuals.   So, each person has the right to conclude their own responsibility for those things.  However, it is NOT right for people to expect America to incorporate the sanction of those laws into our legal system.   
                  So.  What I'm glad of is (since you asked) is, yes, that divorce laws don't subject people to stoning and death.  You should be happy, in turn, that homosexuals aren't subjected to stoning and death.   But you should not force others to legally sanction your sins.   Me?  I think it would be good if there were stricter laws about divorce and remarriage!  Actually, although you've never brought this up (and I bet you do know about it, but of course wouldn't want to admit it) there ARE stricter laws these days about marriage.   Over the last 20-some years, counseling has become required of couples who have children and want to divorce, etc.  And there has always been (for as long as I can remember) church rules in many denominations that bar a divorced person from being a Pastor, etc.   There's a stigma attached to divorced people in many areas,  some of them even to people who weren't the guilty party.  Because, indeed, there are two people in a marriage, and one person cannot always control what the other person does.
                  
                  Conservatives HAVE been tightening the laws about divorce, etc., over the years.  It apparently just isn't enough for the Left.  They jump in and insert their own agenda into our laws, instead of waiting for the Right to actually fix things.  It's typical.  No forgiveness from the Left, that's for sure.  Because they in fact do not even care; they just want to use human frailties as the scapegoat for insertion of wrong laws into our legal system.

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                     livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Matthew 19:6: "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
                     Not a Jewish law, which allows divorce. A Christian law if there ever was one.
                     
                     And yet evangelicals scream and moan about gay people, never making a remotely serious effort to ban divorce. Even their churches condone divorce and remarriage.
                     
                     Like I said, you are not a true-to-the-Bible Christian, although you play one on HubPages.

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                        Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        No, they don't condone divorce and remarriage.  At least not the ones I've seen or heard of.  They simply understand that there is forgiveness for sin, and try to show the same mercy that Christ showed to sinners.  Incidentally, of course, those who accept Him are no longer considered sinners in His eyes, nor in the eyes of most churches.
                        Once again, you've exhibited your close-minded judgmentalism and the lack of forgiveness in your heart.
                        Such is the habit of left-wingers.

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                           livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           And are gay Christians who accept Christ as their savior accepted in evangelical churches? (I mean the ones that continue to be in same-sex relationships, just like the remarried continue to be in what Christ called adulterous relationships)

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                              Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Not that I know of.
                              For precisely this reason (as I've told you before)---
                              The union between a man and a woman contains nothing inherently wrong.
                              But a union between two same-sex people is inherently wrong from the get-go.  So there's no "fixing" it within that basis.
                              Don't get mad at me. That's just the way God made people from the beginning.

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                                 livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 Thanks for being honest about the double standards applied by most evangelical churches.
                                 
                                 Well, gay relationships are not inherently wrong according to the Bible. The Bible doesn't talk about same-sex relationships at all, actually. I understand many evangelicals like to read between the lines, but as I said earlier, their hypocrisy on the divorce/remarriage issue makes them poor judges of morality. If they didn't have gays to obsess about, they'd have to answer for their own sins, right?
                                 
                                 I personally believe most countries without an official religion can have a clear separation between church and state, but vigilance is important and necessary.

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                                    Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    You have raised a valid point that has troubled me before. Jesus didnt talk about homosexuality but he did clearly state that divorce and remarriage was adultery. Yet churches I have been to happily tolerate remarried couples, but condemn same sex relationships.

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                                       Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       Jesus didn't have to talk about homosexuality in no-uncertain terms.  His Father had already spelled out the natural and Godly form of union in the book of Genesis.  AND the entire Bible is about Jesus anyway.  If you'd like to take a look at the book of Jude in it, you'll see confirmation of the Genesis plan.

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                                       livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       That's what I keep on reminding Brenda of, but, she's heterosexual and divorced/remarried, so she's inclined to put words in Jesus's mouth instead.

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                                       Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       I'm not inclined to take much notice of Jude on account of the fact that the writer endorses the Book of Enoch.
                                       
                                       Besides which Brenda, do you believe that divorce and remarriage (except in the case where one spouse was sexually unfaithful to the other) is adultery? If so then those that remarry are living in sin to the same degree as same sex couples.

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                                          livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          Not to split hairs, but the exception is for fornication (premarital sex) not infidelity. A bride had to be a virgin for marriage in Biblical Hebrew culture, so finding out that she was, in fact, not a virgin, was grounds for divorce.

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                              Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Its kind of hard to be forgiven of a sin if you are continuing the sin. Not that I'm saying homosexuality is a sin, I have no idea if it is or not. But, if a murderer is asking for forgiveness and still commits murder, well, you get the point. And just to be clear there is no double standard, a person divorces and asks for forgiveness they are forgiven. The marriage that follows is not a continuation of sin.

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                                 A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 Yes, anyone can commit murder, once. It's a good thing we have laws made by rational human beings and not gods.

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                                    Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    You can also be punished for committing murder once, twice if you ain't careful. Too much for you to grasp?

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                                       A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       Not by gods, I won't, according to your logic. As long as I ask for forgiveness, it's all good.
                                       
                                       Of course, the family and friends of the person I murdered might not be so forgiving. But, as long as I point out that God forgave me, they should be happy, especially if they believe in the same God, right?
                                       
                                       God is good and He forgives, that's all that matters.

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                                          Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          Yes it is, all that matters. As for the family seeking retribution, they will have to ask for forgiveness also.

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                                             A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                             Of course, if what you say is what you believe, then you obviously have no problem with someone murdering a member of your family, or you, for that matter.
                                             
                                             And, your family should have no problem with that either, as long as the murderer asks God for forgiveness.
                                             
                                             I now retire to bedlam.

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                                                Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                How did you decipher that bit of logic? Murder someone in my family and I will return the favor, of course I will ask for forgiveness but I wont expect it from the state.

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                                                   A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                   From you, of course.

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                                                      Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                      Ahhhh, there you are.

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                                 livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 That's not true at all. Jesus is clear: it's the marriage that's the sin, not the wedding. Marriage is not a one-time act.

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                                    Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Jesus is clear? Show me, I'll be glad to follow Brenda around and call her a sinner just like you do.

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                                 Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 ????? Jesus said that anyone who divorces and marries another commits adultery. So you think that if they ask for forgiveness on the wedding day, God turns a blind eye thereafter? It simply isn't credible to say a second marriage is not sin but a same sex relationship is.

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                                    Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Jesus said, well great. Are you saying if they ask for forgiveness they won't be forgiven?

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                                       Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       Ok so if they ask for forgiveness and God forgives them to continue in their second marriage, then the same sex couple only have to ask forgiveness and they too can continue in their relationship. Unless you think God ony forgives adultery but not homosexuality.

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                                          Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          I never said homosexuality was a sin to be forgiven. I'm still waiting on proof that after divorce a remarriage IS a sin. I'm just going by your word.

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      Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      We all know that 'under god' was added after the fact. Heck, you've got a hubber arguing that 'In God we trust' is a tribute to Satan. You guys need to give things a rest.
      
      If you are incapable of abiding by your religion....raising your kids with your values.....upholding your morals... unless the law forces you to, then I am truly sorry.
      
      As for me, it doesn't matter what the law may say... what words are included in the pledge of allegiance...what the schools might teach; I believe in freedom of conscience and living by my own morals. And teaching my kids right from wrong because it is the right thing to do. Not because some government regulation suggests that I do it.
      
      We are supposed to be adults and we are supposed to take responsibility for raising our own children. Do you need to be led by the nose?

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      pedrogposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Morality does not come from any god, there is some twisted morality that is imposed through religions but now we know better, and do you really need a book to understand that murder is wrong?
      
      Secularism began some centuries ago and it is in place to protect your freedom to believe in any baloney you want, if you are against this i will present you a list of secular countries and a list of non-secular countries and please choose in witch country you really want to live, in a secular one or in a non-secular.
      
      Secular countries:
      
      USA, Canada, European countries, Japan, Australia, New Zeeland, Brazil, etc...
      
      Non-Secular Countries:
      
      North Korea, Iran, State of Qatar, Iraq, Lybia, Morocco, Afghanistan, Vatican, Pakistan, Egypt.

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         Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Don't put the USA on that list of secular Countries.
         Because it isn't.
         Nope, not even with all the secularists and atheists who would like for you to believe it's secular.  The USA is a Christian-based Nation, but we don't force people to be Christians.  We do, however, defend its basis, especially these days as it's under social attack by some of its own citizens.

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            pedrogposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Be free to correct this entry in Wikipedia:
            
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_state
            
            And please include "god" or "christ" in here:
            
            http://www.house.gov/house/Constitution … ution.html
            
            And don't mistake secularism with atheism!

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               Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Wikipedia might stand to use a bit of correction.
               But not the original Constitution.
               
               
               I don't have to.  It's already there.
               
               
               
               
               
               "The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same.
               
               done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,"
               
               etc...
               
               
               
               
               There is only one person meant when "our Lord" is referred to.  And that is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who IS God.
               
               
               
               
               That graph in your link about which Countries have a "State Religion" is an indication that the U.S. doesn't impose Christianity upon anyone.  We're not like Muslim Nations, whose laws are Islamic and are strictly enforced via Islam laws.  That's why it's impossible for a devout Islamist to truly be a U.S. citizen.  If they're "Islamists" then they should support and reside in Islamic Nations. We provide freedom to those who want to be Americans.  That does not, however, cancel out the expectation that anyone who wants to be a citizen should be compelled to follow our Nation's laws, which ARE based on Biblical law.  Even our bankruptcy laws were and are based on Biblical principles.  It's called the "year of jubilee".  I can find you Chapter and Verse if you'd like, or tell you to look it up in the Holy Bible.
               
               That's why I can say honestly and with all patriotism that Barak Obama is unfit to be our President.  He has immediately and consistently tried to shred the Constitution and the Bible.  That's both unpatriotic and antiChristian. 
               And just because he's been allowed to be in our Oval Office simply indicates an error on the part of the Democratic Party.   And the fact that he's allowed to remain there for this long is simply an indication of how corrupt our Legislative branch and Judicial branch has become as well.
               Republicans should've already had him removed from Office.  But our hands are tied, apparently, at the top.  That, or else the people who have the power to speak for this Nation are afraid.   Hopefully, things will change soon, in November, and we'll return to properly governing this great Nation.

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                  poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  excuse me but Obama has nothing to do with this sorry for bursting the OBAMA BASHING BUBBLE BUT..if you want to blame him for EVerYTHING wrong than you are being unfair and biased. Separation of School & State has been an ongoing debate for many years..BEFORE OBAMA! why do you Obama haters blame him for things that is clearly not his doing..grow that up immediately. thanks.

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                  pedrogposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Well, if you would like to see your country in the same group as Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Syria and South Korea, i have no will to argue with you and our discussion is over.

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            A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yes Brenda, that is exactly the kind of damage I was referring to that beliefs do to societies and humans. It makes them say things that are entirely false.

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               Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Some religions do I suppose.
               And just what's your excuse?

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                  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  What am I saying that is false and what would make me say false statements, Brenda?

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                     Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     You first.  After all, it was you who made the statement in the first place.

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                        A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        There you go. False statements made as a result of your religion.

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         poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         No morality does not need a book so why make it against the law to worship during learning? Either way it is forced upon our children to think it is wrong to pray inside a school and in doing so this indirectly changes the school environment and moral.  We all know that most religion is based on LOVE not HATE. so why not incorporate as much love as possible within our failing school systems? You must admit it would not hurt anyone! Murder and prayer are two different things..some children are becoming unaffected by violence and it's consequences.  this is about our children not about politicians attempting to get votes.  This issue should not be taking away from the learning process it should add to it. It's a sad day when everyone is soo sensitive about GOD.  God is God whether you are Muslim, Jewish or Christian and if one is truly dedicated to their faith, they would also see that we are all ONE RACE, UNDER ONE GOD..if they cannot see this then they are not truly walking in what they believe to be God's will and I do not agree with separation. This issue is disturbing because I think if children and teachers were allowed to pray at school, our schools would be places of positive support systems and not jungles and prisons. God exists with or without our belief, government cannot control how and when we pray and if that means praying at school to get motivated or to believe in myself.. so be it.  Who's right is it to tell me or my children they cannot?  As far as "secular" goes, those are just words that someone made up to make us think about the possibility of no GOD existing? Not buying it. Even in non secular countries God is a BIG DEAL, if it wasn't maybe there would be no conflict of people trying to be FREE. does secular mean FREE?

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            pedrogposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Well, i and many people who attend to public schools are not Jewish, Christian or Muslin, we are Atheists, Agnostics, Deists, Pantheists, or something non-theist... Are you thinking about this people too? Or is your opinion based on your own view and beliefs?
            
            You are free to pray in school, as long as it does not have nothing to do with the process of learning or as long as anyone who does not want to have anything to do with your particular cult is affected by your form of worship of your imaginary friend.
            
            Public schools are exactly that, public schools, and they must be friendly environments to all kind of people and free from imposed superstition.
            
            And Secular is a pretty important word that someone "made up" to protect your freedom, learn a little more about it, it's very important...
            
            Well, i guess your holy book is the bible, i'll put here some verses of your book about "love and freedom":
            
            Slavery:
            
            Leviticus 25:44-46
            New International Version (NIV)
            44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
            
            Ephesians 6:5-8
            New International Version (NIV)
            5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.
            
            1 Timothy 6
            
            1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves.
            
            Women condition:
            
            Colossians 3:18
            New International Version (NIV)
            Instructions for Christian Households
            
            18 Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
            
            1 Corinthians 11:3
            New International Version (NIV)
            3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God.
            
            1 Corinthians 14:34-35
            King James Version (KJV)
            34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
            
            35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
            
            1 Timothy 2:11-12
            New International Version (NIV)
            11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet.
            
            Divorce:
            
            Matthew 19:9
            New International Version (NIV)
            9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
            
            Values:
            
            Luke 14:26
            New International Version (NIV)
            26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.
            
            Children:
            
            Exodus 20:5
            New International Version (NIV)
            5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
            
            I could find many more but it's 8:02 in the morning and i need to sleep, i hope you appreciate the time i spent to answer this and, please, reflect on it.

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               poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               TRY REFLECTING ON THIS:Abdullahi ibn Mubarak said:
               
               “The people of knowledge and insight do not consider themselves safe from four things:
               
               1) A past sin he committed which he does not know what Allah will do with it (either forgive and pardon him for it or punish him with it);
               
               2) What is left of his life, whether there is something therein waiting to destroy him;
               
               3) A favor that Allah bestowed upon him, perhaps it is a plot which will lead him step by step to his eventual destruction and ruin;
               
               4) Deviance which is beautified for him so that he sees it to be guidance and in a split second, his heart can deviate and he will be stripped of his deen and he doesn’t even realize it.”.
               
               {Siyar A'lam an-Nubala', Volume 8, pg.106}
               
               no one protects my freedom but GOD! I definately don'y need the government to protect me they have did enough damage..just look at you "secular" advocates..wow.. SO YOU CAN KEEP YOUR SCRIPTURE I KNOW IT. AND THE POINTS YOU MADE PROVE MY POINT.(either decision) IT IS NEVER FORCED UPON ANYONE AND YOU MAY CALL IT A CULT BUT I GUESS YOUR ATHEISM WOULD BE AN ABOMINATION. WHETHER THESE ARE PERSONAL BELIEFS OR NOT IS IRRELEVANT BECAUSE THIS ISSUE WILL ALWAYS EXIST.  IT IS PEOPLE SUCH AS YOURSELF WHO SEE SEPARATION AND NON BELIEF OF GOD AS A RIGHT..OK..WELL THESE CHILDREN CAN BE ACCOMMODATED, IT SHOULD NOT BE A PROBLEM, BUT DO I DISCRIMINATE AND TRY TO CONVINCE THESE ATHEIST YOUTH THAT THERE REALLY IS A GOD AND THAT THE VERY GOD THEY DENY IS proof THAT WELL IN ORDER TO DENY SOMETHING YOU MUST FIRST RECOGNIZE IT'S EXISTENCE.!! I do appreciate the extensive biblical research that you did to prove that GOD IS???? thanks you indirectly admit that GOD must exist if you are digging to find fault in him. <read above over & over..then reflect> blessings

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      getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      When I was a child in school, we had prayer and the pledge.  However, I witnessed the assassinations of JFK, RFK, MLK, segregation, Vietnam, Watergate, legalized child abuse, sexual abuse, legalized exclusion of people of color, and many other evils.
      
      Implying that prayer in school is somehow a deterrent to foul behavior is absurd.

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      Hokeyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Replying to the original post. I dont believe this has any effect on the morals of children today. People have always been mischevious and sought pleasures of the flesh through all of time. In my opinion religion should have nothing to do with government and vice versa. People have always done good deeds as well as committed horendous acts. No more now than in the past. The only difference is that in the present we have mass media that makes this knowledge immediately available to the masses. The morality and teaching of children is the soul responsibilty of the parents. Not the government.

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         poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Have you ever heard "IT TAKES A VILLAGE" I bet your neighbors looked out for you as a child and you had caring teachers who taught you some valuable lessons.  Learning is a part of life.  In the home it begins yes and that is where it continues, but that does not take away the responsibility of educators who are with our children for eight hours a day, five days or more out of the week.  Please, parents are forced to abide by government standards like IMMUNIZATIONS & HOME SCHOOL RULES & REGULATIONS, yet they can't be held accountable for making sure our kids continue on the right path morally?  There are many lesson plans that teach manners, parables, fables etc..Life skill classes are another example, I guess you expect parents to take over those classes too? get real, I agree parents play a very important role in educating their children, but then what happen to "LOVE THY NEIGHBOR"..is it relevant only outside of the school doors or just to Christians while they attend the church house? wow.really

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            poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            and on a final note.  The government is quick to LOCK UP our youth and try them as adults just to make profit but deny rehabilitation options for non violent offenders..Is this what happens when everybody blames the other person. This is what happens when teachers and mentors turn a blind eye to a youth who may need spiritual guidance or moral support. People who know better are educators, those who have been to school to learn a trade in order to HELP children. Why deliberately exclude the love of God from a lost soul who may be transformed? Maybe avoided prison or a life of crime and adversity.  I guess the ripple effect is not clear to most who choose to stay in a tiny bubble of "fin for yourselves but pay me when you get into trouble".

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      Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The USA has been allowing newly adopted,Non-Christian citizens to express their rights and flex their muscles as new citizens. Wrong Wrong Wrong. The USA used to tell its new arrival citizens "if you don't like our ways, go back to where you came from." Not anymore. The USA has corrupted itself and will never find its way back.

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         A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Yes Dave, let's make sure we keep the world divided using your belief system so that we always hate and despise others who are Non-Christian.
         
         Maybe we should have more holy wars? Would that make it work for you, Dave?

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      Titen-Sxullposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The words under God weren't in the pledge originally, you can go back to WW2 era footage and see people delivering the pledge without those words. It wasn't officially added until 1954. It also ISN'T a crime, those words are STILL IN THE PLEDGE.
      
      Also STATE is not equal to KNOWLEDGE.
      
      Belief in God is separate from knowledge as it is contingent upon faith and not upon evidence or KNOWLEDGE.
      
      Why are kids today immoral? Depends on your definition of immoral doesn't it? If you're like me than you think the fact they're all glued to their cell phones 24/7 is immoral

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         poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         So are you telling me that no consequence will come if I suddenly began to pray with my classroom of students? No constitutional violations etc will result..of course it's against the law if i continue to do this. Charges could be filed against me.  Knowledge and state are separate matters but not really.. We must center our lesson plans around criteria that the GOVERNMENT says is credible and valid, We must make sure we teach all the history, the religion, the social studies and current events of the world yet we are ADAMANT about separating things that go hand in hand. Why exclude FAITH and things unseen..we don't dismiss the theory of evolution often taught in science classes. It not about knowledge and state..it's CHURCH & STATE. Also you cannot not say that FAITH is not knowledge.  It is knowing and believing what you experience from a higher power is real.. How does one know? of course they must be knowledgeable about GOD.  This would allow us to make decisions on our faith and teach us how to share KNOWLEDGE of God's love to others who are willing to accept him.
         
         BTW..kids with cellphones glued are mislead by materialistic society. Most do not have time to pray or spend time in silence.  This is what should happen in those chaotic schools that have impossible learning environments. You would be amazed by the results.

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            Titen-Sxullposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            "So are you telling me that no consequence will come if I suddenly began to pray with my classroom of students?"
            
            Of course consequences will come your way because you're violating Freedom of religion by forcing your students to pray. What if one of the students is Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, surely you can't condone violating their beliefs by forcing them to pray a Christian prayer can you? Leading a religious ritual is NOT THE PLACE for a teacher, at least not in PUBLIC schools run by the government.
            
            "No constitutional violations etc will result..of course it's against the law if i continue to do this."
            
            The only way you won't get consequences is if all the students are the same religion as you are AND agree to pray voluntarily otherwise you ARE VIOLATING the FIRST AMENDMENT.
            
            "Why exclude FAITH and things unseen..we don't dismiss the theory of evolution often taught in science classes."
            
            Are you a POE? I have a hard time believing anyone could actually hold these opinions. Evolution has objectively verifiable evidence, faith is belief without that evidence. One doesn't need faith to accept evolution because it's science, it presents genetic, behavioral and fossil evidence (among other evidence). One DOES need faith to believe the claims of a religion, because religions do not have evidence for their supernatural claims.
            
            What you're talking about is violating the freedom of the students to believe whatever religion they choose by leading them in a particular religion's form of prayer right? How can you not see how WRONG that is?
            
            "Also you cannot not say that FAITH is not knowledge."
            
            Yes I can. Faith is a belief without evidence or proof, it is not knowledge.

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               poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I sooo disagree with you. but whatever you just said. read my post again.  I WOULD NOT FORCE ANYTHING ON ANYONE such as the way non beleivers DO. Evolution can be debated over and over again ..what if I don't want my child to learn evolution is that a violation of my rights as a parent?  It is not a RITUAL..you use these over the top words to make a point.  Where did you get ritual? sounds like witchcraft.
               
               FAITH is evidence not seen.  Man has made up his own understanding of how the world came to be, yet he does not know WHY. That's the part where GOD steps in.  All those scientist who do trial and error or experiment with truth all must begin with the UNKNOWN. They hypothesize and make predictions but they NEVER KNOW FACTS because the FACTS change constantly.  So FAITH is KNOWLEDGE to me. You cannot not define KNOWLEDGE for another being, you are imposing your beliefs onto me now. lol..by the way who told you about FAITH? and how did you know? Can y0u or a scientist explain WHY when you plant a seed in the soil does it sprout flowers instead of watermelon? WHy does the SOIL itself grow things? don't tell me HOW..TELL ME WHY.  & then tell me my faith is not knowledge of my OMNIPRESENT GOD.  Those unexplained deteail that science over looks because they are forced to ignore the GOD factor, is in fact evidence that GOD's presence is real. <good try..and wth is a POE> lol

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                  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Hilarious. What is invisible must be true but where there is evidence to be seen, it is a violation of a parents right to teach their children that observed evidence.
                  
                  
                  
                  The invisible is knowledge to be embraced, yet gravity changes constantly and cannot be known.
                  
                  
                  
                  Yes, by imposing gravity on you, it prevents you from floating away.
                  
                  
                  
                  If the explanation were made as to why, would it be useful to you somehow, or are you stating that why has more value then how? Perhaps, if you actually understood the how, you would not need to ask why.
                  
                  
                  
                  

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                     poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     
                     
                     
                     
                     YOU GUYS ARE HILARIOUS. WHERE IS EVIDENCE? HOW DO YOU KNoW? I guess FAITH would be the answer huh? I am no where ashamed of my FAITH. & as for those HATERS of GOD..HE STILL LOVES YOU. I FORGIVE YOU FOR BEING MISLEAD & DAMNED.  It's not your fault. I guess NO ONE taught you about the LOVE OF GOD. sorry for you and your children.  I am soo glad you worship NOTHING,,but YOURSELVES. sad case of NARCISSISM & VAINGLORY. It's expected though.  You cannot separate GOD from knowledge..as much as we have tried..it doesn't WORK! but you continue in your dream world of scientific data analysis..I will always ask the WHY. Never stated that the HOW is not important that's just your way of debating something that cannot be. but I like how you think, it shows God supplied you with a mind to question and problem-solve..except God is NOT the Problem..maybe you are. As far as being your teacher..well that makes two of us. good day my GOD FEARING FRIENDS.  LOLOLO

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                        A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        So, you've never attended school, never read a book other than the Bible?
                        
                        
                        
                        One cannot hate what one does not believe exists.
                        
                        
                        
                        How nice of you to patronize me. It's not your fault.
                        
                        
                        
                        Is that what you're doing?
                        
                        
                        
                        Sorry for your insanity.
                        
                         
                        
                        I don't worship. Period. It is a waste of time and accomplishes nothing but delusion and insanity.
                        
                        
                        
                        Yes, it does work.
                        
                        
                        
                        Yes, it's called reality.
                        
                        
                        
                        Try asking a philosopher instead. Science does not deal with the why as it accomplishes nothing to do so.
                        
                        
                        
                        Too bad he didn't supply you with one.
                        
                        
                        
                        Maybe, but you'll never show that.
                        
                        
                        
                        I have no fear of your irrational beliefs.

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                           poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           bahaha.  I will no longer entertain the likes of "devils".  I am much better than to argue or debate something I know to be TRUTH.  now for you two who wish to mock me and continue your bashing...feel free.  It's a free country remember. Believe this..
                           @AtroubledMan----well..your named says it all doesn't it.
                           &getitrite----take your own name and study.
                           lollolol <this is all in fun by the way, no way will I take any of your BS ranting and personal shots PERSONAL> I apologize for "damning" you,,i guess I should not JUDGE YOU.. but it's so hard when you are idiots..yet that's for God to work out.>
                           
                           Philosophy huh? is that not considered knowledge? or am I guessing about things just like scientist do!! lol you guys are beautiful.  I will leave you with this..
                           
                           
                           BLESSINGS MY BLINDED FRIENDS.. <humor is so good..LOL>

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                              A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              
                              
                              
                              
                              When you call people "devils" because they don't believe the same as you, expect to be mocked by spouting such childish, kindergarten name calling.
                              
                              
                              
                              Personal insults get you nowhere and only make you look all the more childish.
                              
                              
                              
                              Calling us idiots will get you banned. Should we report you or will you stop?

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                        getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Which god?
                        
                        
                        
                        And I forgive you for not worshipping the Pink Unicorn.
                        
                         
                        
                        Yes, someone did teach me about the love of God.  I've been "saved" since I was twelve. I soon grew up however.
                        
                        
                        
                          My children are great.  They both have advanced degrees, never been in trouble with the law, and are a shining example of what parents would want their child to grow up to be...oh, and they were never made to go to church and they don't believe in your absurd IMMORAL delusional beliefs.
                        
                         
                        
                        You seem to have great difficulty understanding reality, therefore you invent your own.
                        
                         
                        
                        The separation is:  knowledge exist, but your silly imaginary god doesn't.
                        
                        
                        
                        Your god is IMAGINARY!!!!  These claims have no validity at all.
                        
                        
                        
                        God is imaginary, therefore fearing him would be tantamount to fearing monsters under the bed.  Sadly some of us never grow out of this phase.

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   Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years ago

   I dunno.  Is it possible to seperate Christian priests from the little boys they prey upon?

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      Eric Newlandposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Ah, yes. All priests molest children, and all atheists gun down their classmates in Colorado schools.

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         Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         What a ridiculous statement.
         
         I'm sure there are 1 or 2 priests who have (so far) controlled their urge to rape a young boy...

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            Eric Newlandposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            More like 97% of them, as a rough average of most existing estimates. Do you also think all black people steal, or is the priesthood pretty much the limit of your ignorance?

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               Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               A little hint here free of charge...
               
               If you're going to link to a site in an attempt to support your assertion, read the site first to make sure that it actually does.

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                  Eric Newlandposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I did. The figure was a rough average of the figures found further down the page with the results of different reports and studies. I might back down to 96%, since that matches the percentage who have been "accused" mentioned near the top of the page and that 0.27% or whatever is obviously an outlier.
                  
                  But we can quibble over how big that small percentage is for days and it wouldn't make your original comment any more in line. I don't excuse pedophile priests. Frankly no punishment can be severe enough. But shame on the ones that did it, not everyone.
                  
                  As for the OP, I accept separation of church and state as meaning the church, as an institution, is not intertwined with the government, which is the case. But there isn't and never will be separation of RELIGION and state. People can vote, and elected officials can make policy based on their religious convictions, which is not to say they always should. But if they couldn't it would effectively destroy freedom of speech.

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                     poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Church & religion are merely the same thing.  I think you just want to disagree.  Freedom of speech would involve me going to a school or institution to study and PRAY. it is my religion, which is symbolic of "the church", and I have the freedom to worship when and where I need. Is that hard to respect?
                     We can play the definition game if you like, but it's the same context.

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               pedrogposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Defending pedophiles? Really? Only 3%? WOW that's great!!!
               
               Are you relaxed to send your children to Sunday school knowing that there is only a 3% chance that the priest is a child molester? Can you live with this?
               
               You should check NAMBLA, they need supporters...

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      poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      haha. real funny reply. smh. ???

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   Michael Willisposted 12 years ago

   To the OP's question?___No. As long as people with faith are making decisions, there will be no separation.
   
   
   How does this apply to teachers and youth? ___ It is Not the Teachers responsibility to teach our youth about non-religious, religious ideas or morality. It is the Parent's responsibility.
   
   And in reference to the term: Year of Our lord...this is a term used for the date, not religious affiliation of the time. It can easily be Googled and found in history books.
   Here is one link on the meaning of the term.
   
   Year of Our Lord

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      poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Last time I checked teachers make decisions and most worship GOD or believe in a higher power.  Do a poll and ask the teachers( i am one) who make decisions on the future of our YOUTH. We are all people who do or do not have FAITH. in what? dunno. about some. yep I want like minded teachers to teach my child.  Continue to allow atheist to teach your young. ok.

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         Michael Willisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         If YOU decide to help the youth...that is your decision. No one has said you could not. If you read my words (as a teacher you say...you should be able to see my words and their meaning).
         I said it was not the Responsibility of the teachers, but the Parents!!! Clear enough for anyone to read. Maybe I should find a better teacher for my kids if understanding a sentence is so hard.

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            poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            haha funny. I read clearly, you seem to not understand that parents may be responsible but should be supported by teachers and administrators. This fact does not exclude responsibility and right action from teachers. Parents rights are limited when it comes to the system and i would know that. I am both. Why does it have to be either or.  PARENTS ARE A GIVEN. some are decent others are NOT. What happens to the kids without parents? um, I forgot the government steps in and gets money for all orphans. wow. good deal.  Don't teach our children morals so when they are adults we can OWN THEM. smart. It's working too. count how many prisons being built, but oh yea.. that's worth the effort.

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               Michael Willisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               My understanding is just fine. And it really is not funny. You mis-read my comment to the OP and are trying to turn it into something it is not.
               I appreciate a teacher who will help any student. But it is not the right of an adult to ONLY drop their responsibility off on a teacher!  Like I said, it is not a teachers responsibility, but good for you as a teacher if you step in to help with students.
               But at the same time, I would want to know about the teacher. I would not just want any teacher influencing my child!

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                  poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  This is why parents must be involved!! That's why we can choose what schools our kids attend and if we don't like it we remove them! and I am not turning it around you are. As for "knowing" the teachers, do you REALLY know your child's teachers? If you are honest or if you are a father who works like 90% of families..you do not know every teacher..all you know is that they are "suppose to be qualified to TEACH and GUIDE children for success. Not discriminate because of the way a child worships. Maybe I am rare, and from my experience some teachers have this mentality that you have and therefore forget their jobs. They burn out or get frustrated with what comes sometimes but I stand by my belief and you are of course entitles to yours sir, I just would like for you to understand that teachers are not pardoned because it's the parents responsibility.

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                     Michael Willisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Go ahead and believe whatever it is you choose to. I know my original statement and it is in Print for everyone to see, as is your response.
                     I may not know every teacher, but you do not know anything about me!

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   2. 0

      Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It most certainly did have meaning, and it referred like I said to God.  The fact that it was taken for granted was simply evidence that the Founding Fathers took as a normal matter of course that Americans believed in God.  The Christian God.  The God of the Bible.
      Not Buddha or the Muslims' "Allah" nor some statue, nor some British king or queen, nor even "government" itself, nor did they worship the document the Constitution itself, nor anyone or anything except God Himself.
      
      The Founding Fathers' only possible error was that they kinda took it for granted that people would continue to use their common sense in reading documents like the Constitution.   Sadly, many have apparently lost their ability to do so!

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   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   Reading the above comments raises a question in my mind so I'm asking a not so well thought out question.
   
     I don't know if I can properly phrase my question but I;ll try.
   
   I think most people have a shallow understanding of what adultery actually entails
     Adultery? Is it being guilty of causing something or someone to be adulterated?
   
   This implies a change of some kind having taken place.
   If so, exactly how can one tell if something or someone has become adulterated?
   
     We know how it happens; But what is the condition having been created after we have been adulterated. 
   
     I'm not doing well in getting to the point that I wanted to make.  Maybe someone can help me express the question properly?
      And then have an answer?
   Thanks.

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      poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Not really sure what you mean but again adultery is sin period. If it causes harm or hurt to the person you "become one" with..your partner..by dishonest extramarital activities, then I think adultery is committed.  They argue over terms and definitions because this is way around the consequences of our sins.  We attempt to reason and find new ways to evade GOD's Laws. His forgiveness should not be made a mockery, it is deep and healing and if all parties are sincerely involved in it's process, it's not the physical results you reap, but the internal peace that is given.  Those who think that the bible is always LITERAL need to rethink and those who think they know who I worship need to stop making assumptions because you only make an a@@ out of yourself.  No sin is different from another, there is no degree of a sin. It is US as HUMAN BEINGS who are perfect but yet our behaviors is what make us imperfect.  When one is void of faith they cannot see how a godly humbled person sees and it is ok. but they do not escape the wrath.  it may not come when you think, but KARMA is another mother. lol ijs. people can reason and justify alnight long but they have felt the punishments when they do someone wrong! You may not "label" this GOD but you do not see it coming..until you get that WAKE UP CALL that forces you to submit that FAT EGO that wants to KNOW it all! not even your ego can offend GOD.

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         Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         taking this to a new thread

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   Will Apseposted 12 years ago

   Just to go back to the original question- separation of Church and State.
   
   Which religion would you want blended into the state? The Methodists, Episcopalians, the Catholics? I could see a lot room for dangerous discord.
   
   How could concentrating power by lessening the independence of religion be in any way helpful to democracy?
   
   The leader of the Church of England is appointed by the UK Government. Do you want your church leaders appointed by the US government?
   
   Frankly, religion in the US has done well to keep away from state domination. And the state has done well to keep away from religious domination.

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      poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Sounds good but they have not! Can't  you see this. They regulate it as much as they can.  This is clearly not keeping away.

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   Will Apseposted 12 years ago

   I am pretty appalled by the petty regulations in the UK concerning where people can pray and how they can show evidence of their faith. There was a recent case of prayers being banned in local council meetings. The National Secular Society won a court case to impose the ban.
   
   The ban was, in fact, reversed by the Government which is finally starting to become alarmed by aggressive secularism.
   
   I am not sure about the oath of allegiance invoking God's name that you mentioned, though. Oaths are serious things. Should a non believer or a non Christian really be made to swear an oath that they cannot whole-heartedly feel comfortable with?

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      poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      why not? .  As long as they are US citizens and this is the reason I believed I was regurgitating the Pledge of Allegiance.  For patriotism and GOd who protects us all. UNITY.  I mean it's written all over the dollar bills you kill yourself for everyday just to make ends meet. Most have replaced their FAITH with GREEN MONEY..haha.relying on it as if it worthy to be praised...which also has written on it IN GOD WE TRUST!! So do I force non believers to give up money because it says GOD? I think not. Secularism is thriving and in my opinion a bit too much and not to say people should be "religious" because I am not religious, I guess I would "label" it spiritual.tho when you label things you are separating it from it's WHOLE...if everyone stops separating GOD from each other and, dividing and attempting to destroy UNITY AMONG MANKIND, then I believe this world would be a better place and the school system would thrive.

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   getitriteposted 12 years ago

   "In God we trust" should be removed from our currency.  "under God" should be removed from the pledge, as it should never have been inserted in the first place.  And bibles should be removed from courthouses...and these psychotic games should be relegated to the ancient past where they belong.
   
   I agree with Christopher Hitchen's view:
   
             "The concept of a god or a supreme being is a totalitarian belief that destroys individual freedom. Free expression and scientific discovery should replace religion as a means of teaching ethics and defining human civilization"

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      poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That's laughable..and sad at the same time!

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         getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I see you didn't read a word that I stated...and you then respond in a condescending, patronizing way.  Another tactic from those who just outright refuse to think. 
         
         Keep laughing...while your nonsensical religion has been removed from schools, and is being challenged in every public sector.
         
         Keep laughing...while your primitive myths are under attack[finally]by people who know that believers are fearful brainwashed sheep.
         
         As the world becomes more intelligent, your beliefs become more and more absurd.
         
         And please stop attaching your ridiculous beliefs to morality, as morality was here long before your fairytale religion.
         
         We need to KEEP your religious garbage out of our public schools.

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            poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            yes sweetie i will laugh all the way to heaven. haha. But you do agree ETHICS should be taught.but hOW dO YOU teach ethic without a faith based approach? school me. DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD WANT DONE UNTO YOU!! I did not mean to be condescending but I disagree with tht quote. So yes I will laugh when all those who fight GOD's place in education and the world for that matter.. because no matter how hard they try to rid GOD from everyday life,,He just REMAINS CONSTANT,,NEVER FAILING, AND RIGHT ON TIME!! AS LONG AS SCIENTIST DEBATE HIS EXISTENCE HE WILL REIGN! As LONG AS SCIENTIST attempt to find cures and explain the UNexplainable..THEY ARE HUMANS..they are not ALL KNOWING LIKE MY GOD. They make mistakes..GOD DOES NOT. Let's not forget WHY scientist are able to be SCIENTIST..umm they study.. for knowledge, and then apply that knowledge. Now with that same concept why then do they not see that the reason they are NOT able to figure it all out is because their brain capacity is not equip to handle the real TRUTH.. I think GOD purposely MADE IT THAT WAY because man's EGO has gotten so far out of control..God must have KNOWN THIS FACT..so he simply made it to where we cannot fathom his miracles. Our brains are not prepared for the TRUTH.  So he said.. SEEK YE WITH ALL YOUR HEART & MIND..Keep seeking, Keep searching because as long a you do.. YOU WILL KNOW.
            good try tho. LOLOLOLOLOL

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               getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               There are so many different gods, that I can't see where your rant makes any sense at all. 
               
               Which god would you like me to choose...and why?

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                  poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  It doesn't matter which GOD you choose there is only ONE!!! now if you choose to worship your EGO then that's on YOU.  WHY humm ask a scientist?

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                     mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     But how do you know there's only one God? Because that's what you were told? Or were you suckered in like oh so many others?

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                     getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     So you would have no problem with my choosing Thor or The Flying Spaghetti Monster. right?
                     
                     
                     
                     This statement is pure drivel.  I am asking you which god should I worship, and all you can do is accuse me of this nonsense.  Please get it through your head...I worship nothing!
                     
                      
                     
                     Incoherent drivel!!!  Is this what happens when schools teach from the bible instead of focusing on real education.  lol
                     
                     I am so grateful you are not MY teacher.

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   Will Apseposted 12 years ago

   'The concept of a god or a supreme being is a totalitarian belief that destroys individual freedom. Free expression and scientific discovery should replace religion as a means of teaching ethics and defining human civilization'
   
   Hitchins... The adolescent never died in him.

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      howtosolutionsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Reality wise, it is quite impossible to separate these two in our society. One has always have to say something with another.

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         poeticmentorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         THANK YOU!!

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9. 59

   Paul Wingertposted 12 years ago

   Yes, there is seperation of church and state in our Federal Laws. As far as some of some of these smaller communities, if they had it their way, they would be teaching creation in schools and stoning to death people who mow their lawns on Sunday. Most Islamic countries in the Middle East is a prime example of a church/state.
   
   
   

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