Charleston Tragedy-Now Out Come the Apologists from the Right

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   Credence2posted 8 years ago

   NRA Board of Directors Member Charles Cotton blames Pastor Pinckley, a vicitm of the church massacre,  for his own death because as a legislator he voted against the universal concealed carry laws in South Carolina. According to Cotton, if he had have supported the law, the members of his church would have been armed and could have thwarted their attacker with bullets of their own.
   
   Thank God that as part of a search for a new home, after leaving Hawaii,  in the 'lower 48' we decided not to live in this South Carolina.
   
   Now, that is a crock of Right Wing rubbish without dispute
   ----------------
   
   Jeb Bush says that just because Dyllan Roof said that he; wanted to foment a race war, accuse black men of rape, say  that blacks had the goal of taking over the nation in addition to wearing and spouting all paraphernalia and verbage associated with white supremist groups,  we should not jump to the conclusion  that Roof's attacks were  racially motivated.
   
   That has got to be as dumb as a sack of rocks! Following the path of your brother, are you?
   --------
   Fox News says that this attack was an assualt on Christianity, what a spin. So why not Dyllan just decide to shoot up white church members in his own neighborhood if that was the case?
   
   Gotta tune in and see what Bill Mauer has to say about this tonight!!
   
   That's Fox News for you, winner of the esteemed Ted Baxter award for excellence in broadcast journalism!

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   janesixposted 8 years ago

   Well that's silly, because the guy ADMITTED he wanted to start a race war.

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      Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Oh, Yes!

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   ahorsebackposted 8 years ago

   So now what of the rumors of drugs ?    Does that still make it a race war ?

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      NO

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         ahorsebackposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         +   Seriously , The KKK still exists in this town .!?*%

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            wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Haven't you heard?  The KKK is no longer a racist, white supremacy group!  They only do good things now.
            
            (And I've got a bridge for sale, if you're interested...)

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

               So do you think this twenty one year old was inspired by
               1. Pure racism
               2. Substance abuse
               3. A messed up psyche due to who knows what  family/environmental influences?
               4. All the above
               5. 2 and 3.
               6. 1 and 2
               7. 1 and 3
               8. A satanic force
               9. political:
               UPDATE 1:25 a.m. : According to NBC News, two sources have confirmed that State Senator Clementa Pinckney, the senior pastor of Emanuel AME, is among the dead.
               And everybody knows what the president thinks of our overly lenient gun laws.
               
               For what its worth:
               
               http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/the … snewsreu11

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   ahorsebackposted 8 years ago

   It isn't guns , it isn't the KKK,  It's inside the man [ boy] !     One more sign of a broken  soul , a twisted mind , a free range druggy    and a society-culture  that really doesn't care enough  about laws .     Someone growing up without a soul , without an identity . So they have to go out and buy one by striking it rich with instant notoriety .    While the rest of the world  looks to the simple answer .
   
   I am however amazed at the bond hearing ,the judge  letting the victims advocates speak !What a  farce the justice system is !      A fifteen million dollar trial  , life in prison  ,    a media and culture war about  reasons .   Why not just hang him and be done !      We  in America , have become a factory for soulless  kids ,  truly blind to real justice and punishment   ! And a soulless , heartless mental health system .   
   
   But lets blame an inanimate object - while he could have used a car , a bomb , a knife , a sword , a  truck , a bulldozer !   What a world !    America - when will you stop raising kids , mindlessly .

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      +1
      However, I still say this incident cannot be taken to represent the whole.
      it is an aberration. Be careful with those broad strokes.
      
      It would be interesting to know this kid's whole history; to let us understand this as a case study.
      Will they let us in on it? I doubt it. But, it could serve as a lesson in how NOT to raise a child.

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         Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

         You could say the same thing about Ted Bundy or Tim McVeigh. You can have a case study, that is fine. But unless he is discovered as criminally insane, he should be subject to due process like anyone else that commits horrific crimes of this magnitude

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            I really do not know why you are stating the OBVIOUS!!!!
            
            You really do not get that there is a way to prevent this incident from EVER HAPPENING AGAIN?
            The kid is MESSED UP.
            
            
            By understanding this as a case study we could gain some insights on how to avoid creating this kind of psychotic mind in children everywhere.
            
            Of course, he should be given a death sentence. His parents have something to do with this… I go one step further and say punish them as well.
            
            .

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               Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

               Just clarification....... that we are saying the same thing.
               
               It is not appropriate to punish the parents of an adult child who commits crimes. That is a point of contention between us. Being part of the age of majority, we are all responsible for our own behavior and must accept the consequences. I am not so quick to issue a death sentence, I expect a judge to use discretion under the circumstances, but the minimum should be life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. This is about justice, not revenge.

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Uh, he killed nine people in cold blood. Are you OUT OF YOUR MIND?
                  
                  Dear ahorseback :
                  I agree
                  
                  <"I am however amazed at the bond hearing ,the judge  letting the victims advocates speak !What a  farce the justice system is !      A fifteen million dollar trial  , life in prison  ,    a media and culture war about  reasons .   Why not just hang him and be done !      We  in America , have become a factory for soulless  kids ,  truly blind to real justice and punishment   ! And a soulless , heartless mental health system .">

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                     Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

                     The Unibomber, Jeffrey Dahlmer all committed horrendous crimes. They are in prison, (correction Dahlmer is dead) . I don't know where the line between being sentenced to life imprisonment verses the death penalty is drawn. But even this blood thirsty kid is entitled to be judged with aforementioned evaluation criteria.

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                        Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                        To see if he is criminally insane?
                        
                        Updated:
                        The criminally insane should be evaluated based on this:
                        Were they BORN this way?
                        If not, then their parents contributed.
                        Why do they (the parent/s) get off scott free?
                        They should NOT
                        IMHO

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                           Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

                           Yes, that is fair, as one evaluative factor
                           
                           Who can really establish a cause and effect relationship between behavior of the parents toward a criminal offender and causal factors related to the commission of the crime?
                           
                           The evidence will be tenuous at best. It is an impossible standard to apply within our legal system, and you should go elsewhere. The parents did not commit the crime. Klebold of the infamous pair of boys that shot up Columbine High School back in 1999 was a 17 year old at the time. I would have charged the parents with contributing to the delinquincy of a minor through their sheer negligence as to what the boy was doing in their home, right under their nose. This is only possible because the boy was a minor and is the responsibility of his parents.

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                           wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                           Are you assuming that all parents are perfectly suited to the job?  That they have total control over their children?
                           
                           Or were they "thrown" into a job they can't handle, without the control necessary to assign blame?

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                              Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                              WHAT?
                              I did mention that the person should be evaluated by whether or not he was BORN this way.

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                                 wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                 "If not, then their parents contributed.
                                 Why do they (the parent/s) get off scott free?
                                 They should NOT"

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                                    Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                    see above

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                                       wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                       "I do not believe they are born insane."
                                       
                                       "If not, then their parents contributed.
                                       Why do they (the parent/s) get off scott free?
                                       They should NOT"
                                       
                                       Conclusion: parents should be held responsible for mental illness of their children and punished for it.

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                                          Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                          You say it is impossible to prove that the parents cause mental illness?
                                          In some cases, NO

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                                             wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                                             Proving that parents caused mental illness with the intent to do so and with the knowledge and ability to NOT to cause it?  Outside of drug addiction from feeding the kids Cocaine or something, rather hard to prove.

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   ahorsebackposted 8 years ago

   Mix of word meanings , part of justice is the revenge of a society on the perpetrator . call it what you will for wording , this culture has reduced the most major of criminal infractions to misdemeanors.  We can't stand the thought of punishments ....until we are victims ourselves !
   
   And so typical a story of late ,broken family ,  mixed up adult child , on drugs , on alcohol , under the influence  of  some cult or another . And yet , we keep reinventing "who's to blame "

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   ahorseback:
   Can you please expound upon what you know as far as what you wrote here:
   < "And a soulless , heartless mental health system .">

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   Death Sentence is a good deterring factor for even the criminally insane, I would say.
   If you do not want to be put to death, don't put anyone to death.
   What is wrong with the death penalty, credence2?

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      Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I dont like the death penalty, I would rather see a guilty one live than an innocent one put to death, because it is irreversible.
      
      Most modern democracies have dispensed witrh the death penalty. I speak again of civility, it is impropriate to punish the insane, who it can be shown was guilty, but not responsible. Just like I believe it is inappropriate to execute people who commit crimes as a minor. That is why the younger of the pair of snipers running around Virginia a few years ago was spared the death penalty while his adult partner was not.
      
      All of that aside, I accomodate the death penalty as part of American culture, but if it is to be applied it has to be in a non cavalier fashion, taking into consideration mitigating circumstances regarding the crime and the defendent.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         But, what about in this case. How criminally insane can a 21 year old be?
         he was practically just born. 1994!
         I do not believe they are born insane.
         ( If the child is born insane it is because of poor prenatal care, in which case the mother should be held accountable.)

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            Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Anybody can be insane, the malady does not discriminate. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to feed their children on milk and honey, economics play a role in all of this.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   A child is very much influenced by his parents/environment especially the first six years of his life. If the parents did not do their research and give him what he needed, they are to be held responsible, in my opinion.
   What is my opinion based on?
   This:
   It is a fact of reality that the first six years is the growth of the mind, brain and personality. The combination of these is the psyche which is built through the child's absorption of the environment. The psyche is completely influenced by the treatment given by the parents.
   
   If parents are not smart enough and loving enough to do the job adequately, that is a REAL problem. Punishing the parents will help to prevent others from being so cavalier, so irresponsible and so callous as to bring a child into the world; a child they had no ability to deal with what-so-ever.

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      Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Who knows what is smart enough and loving enough, these days....
      
      This isn't Ozzie and Harriet, we are in a new world with 10 year olds having access to communication tools linking them to a world fraught with danger without supervision. Things that were unimaginable when I was that age.
      
      Who decides which parents are guilty and under what criteria can we really really judge the outcome of a defendent's life with the crime committed based upon the the parents and how he or she was raised?
      
      So, I have to disagree with your premise.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

         It is true. I do not agree with handing technology to children younger than fifteen. or only with very close supervision for short periods of time.
         I think this technology is dangerous for growing minds. I work in the public school and I see how these computer apps are used. The kids only get addicted to them.
         Isn't it time we start holding parents accountable for their offspring on a more intense level?
         I think so.
         ...and teachers as well, while we're at it.

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            Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

            Yet, everybody has a cell phone, that can connect to the internet. There pretty darn handy and useful when used by responsible adults. Yes, I say that it is proper to hold parents responsible for the behavior of their children. Teachers as well to the extent of their capacity as loco parentis.

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            wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

            And the parents of the teachers that failed to properly teach not to kill?  And the professors that taught the teachers to teach, but did so improperly?  And the legislators that require particular curriculum that doesn't teach not to kill?  And the citizens that elected those legislators?
            
            Punish them all!

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               Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

               You are certainly coming out with battle ax this morning!!!

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                  wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

                  Sure - why not?  As long as we're going to punish innocent people, we should simply eliminate the human race altogether.  Do the job right and turn the planet over to the cockroaches. 

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                     Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

                     definitely food for thought....

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      janesixposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I'm certainly glad YOU don't make the laws in this country.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

   If the death penalty is in place it should act as a deterrent. If someone commits first degree murder, the criminal should realize he is committing suicide as well.  He is willingly accepting that fate.

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      Credence2posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with that...

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years ago

    Well, they will inherit the earth at the rate we're going. Why NOT speed up the process?

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       wildernessposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       I'm old and decrepit; please wait until I'm in the ground before doing it.

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          Kathryn L Hillposted 8 years agoin reply to this

          won't be long to wait? okay.

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    Moshkaposted 8 years ago

    More like out come the left wing gun grabbers. Starting with our illustrious, incompetent President.
    

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