The case of the woman to be stoned bec. of adultery
Interesting story. You know things happen for a reason. Perhaps in the bigger picture of it all she is a sacrifice for inhuman treatment. In a higher awareness of it all, if we would look at it as she chose this to happen to her subconsciously or before she was born... Lets say that it was in her 'life chart' to occur so she could draw awareness to this insane treatment/punishment of the people. Being accused of it regardless of it being true or not. Maybe on a higher spiritual level her divine spirit/ soul chose her fate to teach mankind of the modern day backwardness of her society.
If we look at it not from a religious perspective: It's about moral obligation more than anything else. And therefore, ban her from the village, from the country, but why kill her for adultery?
At first she was to get whipped for it, and then issues about her husbands death threw suspicion on her even more, and her fate changed.
There is no proof that she is 100% guilty. It is assumed (according to the story). I don't have all the information... but even if it did happen and she had an affair, physical violence towards her for adultery is absurd!!
It is outrageous and preposterous to carry out such punishment by law for adultery. That is like living in a barbaric age. It is a society rules by spiritual ignorance, hate, and a lack of understanding, and common sense.
I disagree with you here LDT. I think you give up a major principle - live and let others live, and side with control freaks.
If being American means not murdering this woman by throwing rocks at her then by all means they should act American.
Or is that the wrong way to approach this?
Never mind, you answered that in the post I replied to.
Probably waiting in line.
Good to see they let you back on!
I don't agree with capital punishment...you can't take it back if your wrong. Of course I have no idea how to eliminate problems such as massive prison over crowding or funding for correctional facilities...
I am afraid this will leave the country without population
Is it obvious that I have no compassion for cheaters? If you want an open relationship say so up front and be honest. I have no problem with that at all. But don't lead someone to believe you will be faithful and then break that trust and drop the cheater bomb on them. Stoning might actually be too good for those people. Maybe we should bring back torture and burning at the stake.
Must admit that I largely agree with Misha on this one (this is happening far too often for my liking!). I have never bought into the idea of natural law, I am afraid - to me, the only right that nature gives you is that you have no rights. You either live, or you die. It is that simple.
I cannot stand the poison dwarf and his theocracy, but interfering in Iranian internal affairs is what led to the Islamic Revolution in the first place. I am confident that the Iranians will fix this themselves if we let them get on with it. Other countries in the Middle East are developing their own way of doing things - the likes of Kuwait and Bahrain are a world away from Iran and the KSA when it comes to women's rights. Not perfect, but that applies to most of the West, too
Unashamedly, I am a moral relativist - even moving from the UK to Greece, you notice that there are many things here that are very different. The Greeks have different morals, laws, ethical beliefs and cultural idioms than I was brought up with - there is always some overlap but, ultimately, they developed what works for them over the millennia.The touching moment of unity, and tears on my eyes
Isn't it a coincidence that China man, you, and me are people who live in a culture different from their own? I think not.Absolutely right, except that in my own case it was no coincidence, this is the main reason I came here.
When faced with differing ideas and thinking It soon becomes clear that most supposed 'morals' and 'rights' and 'freedoms' are in fact their precise opposites. Yet, when faced with those opposites that show this up - nobody wants to talk about them. Maybe the biggest 'sin', the biggest 'lie' the worst 'atrocity' is the deliberate mis-information fed to people, who then replace their own thinking with the lie.
I think that the way you responded to China Man suggests that I am on the right track.
"That's exactly what I would expect from someone who lives in a nominally Communist country. If you aren't allowed to keep what you earn through your labors, how are you any different from a slave? And that, friend, is the definition of freedom."
That was an ideological attack, which failed to take into account his individual experience and the everyday experience that he has of Chinese culture. You imply that your ideology is better than his ideology, and refuse to recognise his individuality, which already infringes upon your three ideals. It is *your* definition of freedom, not *the* definition of freedom, and I suspect that China Man has his own view of freedom, equally as valid as yours.
The Anglo-Saxons had a feudal structure - they certainly did not live up to idea of 'Life, Liberty and Property. I fail to see how that example is relevant to your three ideals, because they did not exist in Anglo-Saxon culture - most people were the property of somebody else. As for the Iroquois example - that is an attempt at distraction.
I cannot answer that fully until I know what societies you believe are the most successful in history. The Greeks, the Persians, the British Empire, the Islamic Empire, and the Chinese are just some examples of societies that did not adhere to your three principles, but did pretty well.
I still have no idea how you arrived at those particular three principles, and why you believe that they are 'better' than any other moral world view. I agree with China Man on this - you are implying that *your* morals are superior, with no basis - other cultures have a different idea, and who are we to make that particular judgement? For example, the Greeks realized along time ago that, if you take the divine out of the picture, there can be no fixed morals, only vague references to 'that which is good.'The point I was trying to make is that this view is based upon your particular ideology - the fact that the 'Great Powers' carved up the world further reinforces the reasons for my shift towards pragmatism. This idea of life, liberty and property is an ideological position that, IMO, fails every time it meets reality - I liken it to Plato's doomed idea of the 'Perfect Philosopher King.' Just because you can conceive that it could exist does not mean that it does exist - I prefer to go by the idea that if something exists it is true - Greeks have a moral code that has worked for them for over 2000 years. I argue that this practical experience is more valid than ideology (it is more 'scientific'
)
I can go with that definition. However, you still had chattels, who were owned by somebody else and had no liberty or property rights. There was also a class system, which made it impossible to move up the social ladder. Therefore, they did not hold to your three ideals, making the comparison invalid. I still have no idea about which three societies you hold as the most successful - it is difficult to understand what point you are trying to make without knowing that. I also would like to know how you arrived at those three ideals - why are they more valid than any other idea of 'rights?'
That is part of the problem - with the US, it often appears to an outsider that it is a case of do as we do, not as we say - they were very happy to support the suppression of a Greek's right to liberty, freedom and property when it suited their agenda. Of course, I am grateful that the US did not remain isolationist during WWII - it shows the difficulty with a historical approach to rights; history is never neat and tidy!
Again, I appreciate that you are an isolationist and, before you all kick my arse and think that I am picking on the US, the English were amongst the worst oppressors. I am merely trying to make the point that ideology rarely matches reality - humanity is too flawed for ideology, IMO.
Of course, I am speaking cross-culturally here - I have no doubt that you are trying to change American society for the better and wish you well with that particular goal.
EDIT: Past midnight here and nearly time for bed. Have a great evening!
Please don't 'sigh' me, LDT - I hate that - it implies that I am incapable of understanding, whereas I merely disagree
My point is that, IMO, the Great Powers never actually practiced those basic rights - the ideology failed in the face of human condition. Whether you blame progressives, Commies, fascists or religions makes little difference - these rights are an ideal that is, at best, transient, and society always moves away from them. Therefore, I question their validity - it is a case of Ideology vs Pragmatism; Plato vs Aristotle.
Fair enough - if you think that those three work best for the US, then that is a sound viewpoint. My argument is that, just because they 'suit' the US does not necessarily mean that they are the best for everybody else. As I said, I believe that rights are relative, and develop to suit a particular culture at a particular point in history.
That happened, although Churchill and the British were the ringleaders in thaty particular intervention. It is more to do with the Fascist Regime of 1967 - 1974; the removal of a democratically elected government and the propping up of the particularly nasty regime by the US. That is why Greeks still do not trust the US (administration, policy and government, not the people!). To be fair, it tended to be the CIA - this quote sums that up:
"Phillips Talbot, the US ambassador in Athens, disapproved of the military coup, complaining that it represented "A rape of democracy", to which Jack Maury, the CIA chief of station in Athens, answered, "How can you rape a whore?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mili … _in_Greece
Good to know, thanks - I have a lot of respect for your intellectual honesty. You are right about the Balkans - there is still a simmering unrest here.
Re. Decriminalization - Something else that we agree on!Sigh retracted.
Perhaps, Sufi, you have a point about the Great Powers, but you don't have a similar point about the US. It was the US which attempted (poorly) to keep China intact through it's Open Door Policy. Of course subsequent (Progressive) leaders twisted those ideals to suit their own purposes. You can't really talk about the US without talking about the Progressives and how they betrayed the ideals of the Founders.
I simply don't understand the idea of relative rights. Probably in the same way you can't understand absolute rights. If rights really are relative to time and culture why was it right for Aztecs to cut people's hearts out, yet Southerners are condemned for holding slaves? Why is it OK for druids to practice human sacrifice, yet conversion by the sword is an evil thing?
Don't feel bad about not trusting the US government or it's policy, but I have to bring up the moral relativity thing again. According to moral relativism wouldn't the US and UK have been justified in supporting a fascist regime against a communist one in Greece? If not, why not?
I know that I confuse a lot of people who think in terms of current political views because most current views don't take individual rights into consideration. Just about all of my views are from an individualistic perspective, which is why a can support a supposedly lefty idea like decriminalization; yet be opposed to many forms of (government-mandated) welfare, a supposedly right wing view.I must admit, my knowledge of US history is limited, especially when it comes to China - I will try to find the time to read up on that tomorrow. I did read some information you gave on the progressive movement, but that was a long time ago.
Note that the people criticizing the Druids for human sacrifice were the Romans, those noted experts on human rights. The same for the Aztecs and the Spanish conquistadores
That is a fair viewpoint (and I detest those things on a personal level), but I could bring up the Spartans. To a modern viewpoint, most people find the idea of leaving weak and disabled babies in the forest barbaric. Living here, I know what a hard country this is, and feeding mouths that cannot contribute jeopardizes the rest of the family. Is that morally good, bad, or in the 'grey area' - I tend to see shades of grey in most things and take each case on an individual basis. In my experience, a 'one size fits all' approach to morality and rights does not work - your experience may well be different
By those criteria, is it acceptable to have the idea of life and liberty, yet have prisons and executions? Morals and rights certainly are a tricky concept - I have read about the enlightenment but, ultimately, I find most of their work to be far too black and white, and it does not fit with my personal experience of human society and culture. I don't believe in natural law as a concept (difficult when you have a background in studying biology), so we are probably always going to disagree on this. Still, there is much overlap in our views, so that is always a positive.
Another tricky one - after WWII, and the Civil War, your argument has validity. Unfortunately, Greece was just another front in the Cold War.
This does not, IMO, apply to the fascist regime - the Greeks elected Papandreou, fairly, yet the CIA decided to remove him and support the coup because they perceived that he leaned left. That is not the same as saying that Greece would have become a communist regime - there is very little to suggest that, only that Greece was sympathetic to Russia (the two nations have a shared religion, and have always been allies). Bringing us back to the OP, it is exactly the same way that they removed a government elected by the Iranian people and replaced them with the Shah. Again, the British government does not have a glowing record in respect to rights - they liked taking other people's property.
Exactly - I long since removed myself from the tired old left-right thing. That is BS, IMO - I see shades of grey again. Looks like we are actually in a very similar place, although we may have arrived there via different routes.
Anyway, I must head off to bed. Thanks for the great debate, as always - enjoy the evening
Silly me! 
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