It has been reported that a 20 year old anglo male entered a predominantly black church and opened fire killing 9. This is to be considered a "hate crime". I have always said that there are too many incidents that involve race to chalk them all up as random occurrences. It is disturbing that so much hatred is found in one so young. When I read this article I was taken back to a church bombing in Birmingham AL in September. 1963 that killed 4 little girls. Maybe we are all being a little premature about improving race relations... I don't have to pull the 'race card', it is all on the table in plain sight.
Would you feel more comfortable if I said caucasian, white?
I don't care. I am just curious about the use of "anglo" and "anglo-saxon" lately. Is it the new PC term,or is it some kind of subtle insult? I'm just wondering.
Why this is not being described as an act of terrorism?
Because they (?) want it to be seen as racism. I see it another kid on pharmaceuticals.
Have you seen the latest reports, this fellow has taken up the mantle of white supremacy and racial resentment, combine that with his probably being disturbed in some way and you have a disaster in the making.
The kid even said he did it because he wanted to start a race war.
What pharmaceuticals was he on,and how do you know they had anything to do with his behavior? Or is it just another one of your conspiracy theories?
I just watched CNN announce they are now calling it an act of terrorism. They also had a panel discussion about why the "default" for white killers, even right-wing terrorists, is to label them mentally ill, while the default for certain other demographics is to label them terrorists or thugs.
Yes, I would go so far as considering this an act of domestic terrorism, the radical Islam has got nothing on this kid in the sheer ferocity of the crime and its setting.
This is a hate crime. It comes right from his own mouth and backed up by his behavior. They strongly believe he acted on his own.
And was the kid given Ritillin or Adderal all the years of his life? and we need to analyze whatever else has been going DRASTICALLY wrong in his young life. Yeah, lets bring up racism… cause we whites are such prejudiced types of people, aren't we?
All people have empathy, compassion and goodness in the make-ups of their very beings. It is only when we mess with what we naturally are that the nature of a human goes bad. Racism is learned. It is not natural.
Why don't we try to find what went wrong in this kid's life?
I would say the same thing if a black twenty year old walked into a white church and shot nine people.
A blurp of story. Thanks for nuthin'.
Kathryn, I knew that this was coming, the apologists
You know they say that among those that commit crimes: Black are thugs
Muslims are terrorists and Whites are mentally ill.
Regarding our race relations there is this colorless oderless gas in the air that like oxygen is the component for starting fires, but no one wants to really hone in on it.
The gun people are saying that the pastor and that part of the congregation should have been armed. I am expecting any number of excuses throughout the day!
Racism is natural. It is natural to fear/be intolerant of someone different from you.
Tolerance is a learned trait.
Well, if we expect to survive as an ever greater multicultural civilization and society, we had better learn tolerance quickly. It is natural to pick your nose, but a little civility teaches us not to do this in public. Thats what we need 'civility"
I disagree. watch kids in a room. All these kids of different nationalities accept each other.
Why wouldn't they?
They're just kids and thats all they see: Kids, kids and more kids.
No one is born racist.
No one is born racist but their parents and the culture is and teaches the young this if not overtly, subconsciously.
The same culture (American culture-white dominating) that statistically prove differing life outcomes based on race, we are far from colorblind yet. It is why I get Bull Connor and you get Andy Taylor. We can go for the stats and discuss this in depth, if you like, I explained a few of these things to Janesix in an earlier thread.
" I don't have to pull the 'race card',
it is all on the table in plain sight."
No it isn't!
To say so, is racist against whites.
You're welcome. We have our own homegrown terrorists right here which as part of American history is as American as apple pie. Maybe we need to put more focus on the rightwing hate group who is probably responsible for filling this kid's empty head with all this nonsense. It is interesting to note, how I complained about the radical Islamic groups who send their young as suicide bombers while the old ones who direct them sit and scratch their beards..... This situation may be a redux.
"probably" isn't good enough.
You are surmising.
Are you guessing?
Yes, you're right, we do not know that he was affiliated with anyone, which would be more terrible than his having done this on his own volition. But it is a hypothesis, not a guess.The clothing and his statement at the time of the shooting indicated a racial resentment characteristic of white supremacist hate groups.
Get this: now Fox says that this attack may be an attack against Christianity itself, the spinmeister never stops. If that were true, there were plenty of churches in his neighborhood that could have been the focus of his violence.
Oh my gosh! No! this is a crazy mixed up kid. All the political distortions really NEED to be done away with. Scientifically speaking… This issue needs to be dealt with as a case study.
The Kid's whole entire history needs to KNOWN.
Thats the problem with the news.
They give us bits when we need all.
I wish everybody could have shown the same understanding and patience about the motivation of the participants during the Baltimore riots.
People that engage in the mass shootings are not all necessarily mentally ill to the point that their judgment is so askew that they cannot be held responsible for their crimes.
I respectfully disagree, the shooters in the Columbine High School and the movie theatre in Aurora, Colorado. How about the incident at the Connecticut school or at the mall in Tucson, are you saying that all of these people were mentally ill? Would you say that the mass murders committed by the Islamic radicals today or by the Nazi's in the past are the product of 'mentally ill' people?
I doubt it, this fellow was caught well over 200 miles from the scene of the crime, he was of sound mind enough to flee, for what purpose?
The difference in this and Baltimore is extensive and yet you wish to simplify and compare the two somehow ? Right . ........ya , makes sense to me , Not !
So, you want to give this kid he benefit of the doubt too?, The only real difference is that one group are black and the other is a white fellow. Are you making an excuse for him too?
Mentally ill, yes. So ill they cannot be held accountable, no. Or at least must be removed from society for protection of the rest of us if that means "accountable".
I concur.... Depending upon a trial his crimes reach the level of deserving capital punishment or if criminally insane spend the rest of his life in an institution. That what the 'law and order' guys would say.
It would be extremely difficult to convince me that he didn't know that killing is wrong, both morally and legally. He knew both; he just doesn't care (and for our system the only one that matters is the legality of murder).
So does he get the chair or a plush private bedroom with the excuse we're trying to "cure" him while knowing we cannot?
If I were judge, the leniency that I could allow is life imprison without the possibility of parole That will depend upon remorse and or the malicious intent surrounding the crime.. Otherwise, since they retired 'ole sparky' sometime ago he will have to be relegated to the " bench'. Since he is over 21, I cannot be lenient based upon his youth. All this assuming that an insanity plea won't wash....
Can/will we protect the people he is locked up with? Either fellow inmates (that may have had an ounce of weed on them) or the truly insane? Both really ARE our responsibility as we forced them into contact with him.
Yes, if necessary. The 'truly' insane do not belong there. They should be institutionized/hospital prison. (Cuckoo's' nest). We cannot be decieved by that cherubic face of his. He could always be sent to that maximum security facilty in Southern Colo, where the hard core are stored. That is if he turns out to be that much of a threat
But at least this post gives those who want to discuss/argue something
This is just disturbing on so many levels. I'm not going to play any race card or even bring up religion because it happened at a church. The only thing I can say is that there was a lot of misdirection on the part of the shooter and mental illness could have played a role. Side note: the amount of homicides by gunfire continues to be absurd and I've haven't seen much progress lately.
Nor will you (see much progress) until we accept as a nation that the murder tool isn't the problem.
Wilderness, always good to have you weigh in. There is that 2nd amendment reflex from the conservative. A lot like the reflex action you get when the doctor hits a knee with a mallet? I am not advocating anything in this regard but I will say that it is a pretty efficient tool that can kill 9 people in a matter of seconds, so what ever the perps problem be it mental illness or premeditation, it instanly translates into death for so many. Powerful tool, I would say....
Poor little white boy has been misguided by mommy, daddy, psychiatrists, teachers, and the list goes on.
Poor black protestors are stupid thugs who could better themselves if they just stopped feeling sorry for themselves and worked harder and longer.
Case closed. No more discussion needed. We've been schooled.
Thanks, Pretty Panther, I going to bring the teacher a polished apple!
I think it's entirely possible that this kid is both mentally ill and a racist.
I'm sure there are plenty of racists out there who wouldn't think to actually grab a gun and kill 9 people. There's something not right with anyone who can walk into a building and kill a bunch of random strangers. I'm sure he's mentally ill, as is anyone who commits similar crimes. But there's also a difference between being mentally ill and being not criminally responsible on account of mental illness. The latter is actually quite rare and most people know exactly what they're doing when they commit these crimes. Does that mean that they're not ill? Nope. Does it mean that they can still function well enough to know the difference between right and wrong? Absolutely.
I'm not sure what the answer is. I think a lot of it comes back to the parents. People need to know how to spot and treat tendencies towards dangerous thoughts/behaviours and not pass down hate and prejudice. Teach your kids kindness and empathy from the beginning and get help if you notice they're severely lacking it. Oh, and don't give your troubled child a freakin' gun for their birthday.
I am not in a position to speak of the soundness of mind of this young man, It is the attempt to excuse his behavior so easily, when if the situation were different people would not have been so charitable.
No, I don't think this kind of thing should ever be excused. I think people correctly assume that someone capable of something like this is mentally ill but then incorrectly assume that it means the person didn't understand what they were doing. In most cases like this I think that mental illness is necessary but not sufficient.
Speaking as a "mentally ill" person who has had several psychotic episodes and spend much time in psych wards with other mentally ill people, I can attest that even very floridly psychotic people certainly know right from wrong,and are even capable of strategic planning.
Mental illness is no excuse for criminal acts, accept in very rare cases.
Absurd. And I speak as someone who has extensively cared for mentally ill people and work with an agency that does so. Yes, it's true that some can tell right from wrong. Others aren't even capable of using a bathroom.
This kid has shown that he is more than capable of using a bathroom as well as automatic weapons...
I can tell you from experience, I certainly knew right from wrong.
SOME people can't. I would say more can than can't, a lot more.
Sad fact , Unless he actually is completely stupid , he deserves the death penalty . Period . Almost always , these acts of human indecency are an evil choice . As already stated one has to be" out there crazy" to be mentally excused .
<"This is to be considered a "hate crime". I have always said that there are too many incidents that involve race to chalk them all up as random occurrences. It is disturbing that so much hatred is found in one so young.">
I am saying it is NOT innate hatred.
It is a messed up psyche.
That's all I am saying.
I'm NOT saying people with messed up psyches should not be held accountable.
I am saying we need to look at the messed up psyche and determine what caused the psyche to get so messed up..
...before we call it racism.
I'm asking why call it racism???
until we know for sure. and the kid says Yeah, I hate blacks and I hate God so I thought would kill some off… two birds with one stone.
It is a horrible story. It goes way beyond racism
To even mention racism is inappropriate.
There is some form of racial resentment operating, he made racial antogonistic comments prior to the shooting. Why a black church? Look at his car and his clothing all having white supremist labels and placards. No, this guy just did not snap.... I am not dismissing your idea, but some kind of racism is evident in his behavior. And, you can bet that your take on this is going to be an uphill climb from the standpoint of most all of us. Believe me, the African American community of Charleston are going to need more substantive explanations and proof before your suggestion can be taken seriously. Of course, he is not going to openly admit he is a racist and bring the heavy hand of the law on him further. His actions will do the talking for him, his associations, etc. No more than Tim McVeigh admitted his resentment.
I know, that little cherubic face of his has grab your heartstrings?
I know nothing of the incident. I have not seen his face. Coming from someone who loves children and knows how sweet they are, I deduct that something went drastically wrong with this kid's upbringing.
Racism is learned, but I don't think anyone in today's world is teaching racism.
I could be totally wrong. If so, it is something "we ?" need to work on. It is sad and it is not fun.
Is it fear? Is it enjoyment of hating?
It starts out as psychological issue, I think.
As far as this incident, it is wrong to call it pure racism and pinpoint that which it is not.
Who would implant racism into a child?
That's where the blame should be.
...whoever is teaching racism.
There is no reason for it. It is illogical, as Spock would say.
The number of white supremist organizations have grown exponentially since Obama's inauguration in 2009. I would hazard a guess that they are preaching and teaching racism, otherwise what is their purpose for existence?
This 'child' is an adult and consequently can and must be held responsible for his actions, do not forget 9 people were murdered. No one can afford to take that lightly.
Oh! Well, why didn't you say so.
Is there some logical reason for such racism?
What is their reasoning?
You did not ask me.... As for their reasoning it is as old as the pyramids, one race says and wants to promulgate that it is better than another. What reasoning, it is part of the human condition and has been around since we have been able to identify differences from one group and another. Ask the KKK, Aryan Nations, or Christian Identity to explain themselves. They will do better than I.
The KKK felt that newly released slaves should not be allowed to vote, as they would vote a certain way... not sure which way.
"The first (KKK's) sought to overthrow the Republican state governments in the South during the Reconstruction Era, especially by violence against African American leaders. It ended about 1871. The second was a very large, controversial, nationwide organization in the 1920s that especially opposed Catholics. The current manifestation consists of numerous small unconnected groups that use the KKK name." W
But they are still here, or their offshoots and as I said there are more prominent now then 10 years ago, so so much for our becoming more enlightened with the passage of time.
We have our Black panthers and Black muslim nationalist groups , but besides rhetoric, they have not bombed government buildings nor murdered members of congregations in white own churches as a form of protest.
. So there is a matter of level and degree. I know this nation's sordid historical moments,and there is no one clever enough to have me waltzed around them.
...pretend I am an "atheist."
Prove your theory.
...what is it again?
It would help us to know, in one sentence, what your point is. And then present why you think so. So far, you have used the word "probably" too much.
( If I do not believe in God it is because I do not see God anywhere. Where I live here in So Cal, I do not see any racism.)
I will try to be succinct for you, the last sentence, You dont see racism in Southern California? I lived there for a few years, it does not exist in a bubble. Talk to the people of Souith Central, Compton, or East LA and see what they tell you. Dont forget the famously GOP Orange County?
The only time I said probably was in reference to the perps involvement with hate groups in this shooting.
<"This 'child' is an adult and consequently can and must be held responsible for his actions, do not forget 9 people were murdered. No one can afford to take that lightly.">
This is a second issue. No one will argue what you have said here.
I'm NOT saying people with messed up psyches should not be held accountable.
<…we are all being a little premature about improving race relations…">
This is your point.
It is just when people talk about a postracial society and that white folks don't see racism, it is events like these and what has happened over the last few months with police issues and such that remind us that we still have a considerable way to go.
Issue One: The incident was one of pure racism. No.
Issue Two: He needs to be held accountable for his actions. Yes. (Messed up psyche or not, he is accountable.)
Issue one: Why not, I have seen racists take bold actions such as this in the past. That is not what the Black community of Charleston believes. Why is this the exception?
A 'hate crime' is defined as assault on another solely because of their race,gender or sexual orientation, etc. If he is accused of a hate crime then an element of racism has to be involved by the very definition.
The hate is caused by a messed up psyche. Humans are not born to hate.
Racism is caused by Ignorance.
The kid is ignorant of a better way to think and be.
He could be an evil racist, like Mengele or McVeigh, there are plenty of examples, why is he (this kid) the exception?
so these guys were born evil?
You tend to put words in people's mouths.
I did not say he was an exception.
Even Adolf Hitler was not born evil, but he became so, all the same. Racism is more than ignorance, many that practice it know what they are doing for their own self serving ends.
No, racism is the result of people seeing differences in another group or person,and becoming defensive. Or just not liking them because of perceived differences. It's a natural, territorial response.Older than the hills.
+1. Right on all counts, particularly that it is a natural response. Of course, when that scary other race becomes a part of our own "group" (particularly when it happens before our own birth) racism has a strong tendency to disappear.
Generally to be replaced with something else - religious differences, homophobia, etc. - anything that is not common on our personal mini-society.
What would the people of Souith Central, Compton, or East LA and the famously GOP Orange County tell me?
You cannot prove it was a racist act.
Nor have you proved one thing here.
Using the laws of probability I can say that similar acts performed under similar circumstances in the past were more likely than not a racist attack. I have to act on precedent and the preponderance of evidence, not the unlikely probability that you speak of.
What is the way to go to eradicate the remaining embers of racism?
Without isolating the difficulty, one cannot solve the problem.
What do you think the difficulty is?
First, I have got to get you people to admit it exists before we can begin to look at remedies and solutions. The first and formost difficullty is getting so many of you to acknowledge its existence. We can't solve a problem, if you deny that there is an object that we need to focus upon.
We already figured that out. Lack of love.
Love is a given, however, so it is a matter of people not having love as a priority. Not valuing love over material stuff… the mini society as opposed to a universal society…
Its just a lack of awareness.
Raising consciousness of the people is the solution. Consciousness IS increasing. We can have faith in that.
Execute patience, and give love for hate.
And enforce the laws of justice.
AND the shooter needs to be in Jail For The Rest of His life.
I am interested to know who would not agree with that?
We really need to know this person's history. That would be a good start to raise consciousness.
Will we ever Know it?
Probably not. "They ?" would rather we surmise, guess and suspect that it is hatred on the part of whites (increasingly) toward blacks.
All of that is easy to say on a full belly, a roof over your head and having your material needs met, those that are in want in any of the essentials that most of us take for granted are not going to be as gracious.
Yes, the minimum sentence for the shooter must be life imprisonment with no possibility of parole.
What does any of that mean?
Ask any homeless person if he is racist and he will say hell no.
"Ask any homeless person if he is racist and he will say hell no"
Once again, you presume knowlege you have no way of knowing about any particular individual.
Sure, I believe you go up to homeless people and interview them on their racial predudices and beliefs.
I know and have talked to plenty. they are great people. Those who are already suffering would never put suffering onto anyone.
Is that the topic of this forum?
Credence2: The solution is civility. I agree.
Then don't bring up a topic if you don't want it to be discussed.
The prevalence of racism in our society is a reflection of that lack of civility which undermines our future prospects for co-existence.
Laws regulating behavior and a high standard of living.
Atheists don't like the ten commandments and anarchists don't like laws, in general… I guess... I don't know... Anarchism is a mysterious philosophy and I don't really understand it. I just know they don't like gov't.
I guess I'm trying to please everybody, universally.
Who said anything about the ten commandments? I was merely talking about laws regulating behavior that are already in place. We have the laws,all we need is a high standard of living for everyone. Problem solved. I doubt it's possible though.
what sort of "high standard of living?"
based on what?
Standard of living is free choice.
In this country there are laws.
The laws and The Constitution are for all citizens.
Every person makes his own luck.
No one or force can hold us back except from our own doubts.
I would like to know how to bring about a higher standard of living except by individual effort.
And this needs to be taught early on.
Like I said, it is probably not possible. There aren't enough resources in the world to get everyone to as high a standard of living as the well-to-do have in the richer countries like the U.S.
You're right, of course people are free to live in ghettos if that's their "choice".
They do not choose to live there but their absorbed mind-set (as a child) keeps them there in many cases.
and some do rise out of it!
because in America we are given equal opportunity, but not outcome.
However, until we recover from the civil war and the institution of slavery in our past, we will not have equal opportunity.
Some people on this earth are STILL in slavery.
If you are not in slavery, EMBRACE your freedom... against all odds ... against all stupid ignorant people!
Thats what I have to say.
If you are falsely arrested, be able to say, I do not do drugs and I believe in a clean life style.
"Please do not profile me based on your past experiences with people of my skin color…"
And if you are the cop, Listen.
If you are Black and not hired for a job you could do well, tell the employer he is missing out on hiring someone who would have given his all. And when you are being interviewed, be able to say, "I will give you my best efforts."
If you are in school, try your best, you have great odds to conquer in the world. (Hint: study business.)
And if you are a teacher of black kids, teach harder.
I believe, we are on an upward curve.
It seems like there is an opposing force.
It should make those of us who want to see justice and goodness manifest in this world work harder.
You did not complete your last post before I replied. I was of the distinct impression that you wanted some sort of lenient consideration. What it mean in a nutshell is that kumvbaya is not going to work in the world as it is currently structured. I could ask most of you, "are you racist' and you will say no. But the disparities in our society, racial profiling, disparate treatment/ more harsh by law enforcement and the judicial system, the higher rates of unemployment, and the documented disparity in opportunities and virtually all aspects of American life tells me someone is racist, despite what they may say when I ask them. This stuff is all over the internet, you can find it without having me have to go dredge it up...
<"Well, if we expect to survive as an ever greater multicultural civilization and society, we had better learn tolerance quickly. It is natural to pick your nose, but a little civility teaches us not to do this in public. Thats what we need 'civility'">
Can't we leave it at this?
Too many of you are not getting the message. Change is necessary, rather than just accomodation. So we can't leave it there, because there is more.. The way you like to dissect things, we need to understand what it is that prevents more of you from becoming more tolerant faster in preparation for the America of the future
so what prevents us (in this case, whites) form being civil?
if you do not want to believe that individual human nature cannot be changed, you can live out YOUR personal hell. Don't inflict it onto the rest of us.
I presumed you were giving a reason why racism can never be eradicated.
Actually, I don't believe it can be eradicated either.
People are just plain stupid.
Let's say the problem can be solved with love.
Where would love be applied.
To avoid the agony of waiting for an answer, here is my answer:
By allowing kids to grow up with the perfect love of their hearts they were born with.
To preserve and protect that love.
By learning love ourselves.
and By reading/understanding the words of the great saints and avatars.
and going to where love is:
Love is within us, coming from our hearts.
Jesus said God's kingdom comes as His will (love) is done on earth the same as it is done in heaven.
It wouldn't be called heaven if it wasn't for love.
Is love fantasy, JS?
Sure, how many people do you really think are going to sit under a tree and contemplate the meaning of God and love?
Let's be practical here.
No, it has to be found under the tree and then executed beyond the tree. Sitting still below the boughs of the tree comes first.
Again, I say you aren't being practical or realistic. People don't behave that way. (Mostly).
If you still your mind, you find love and joy from the peace of your own being.
This is what the world needs. Self mastery:
The ability to pause.
Willful ignorance of how human beings actually behave.
Willful denial of our (human) ability to pause, reflect and sense reality.
Doubt away. That is YOUR hell.
Great prose, Kathryn, but it hardly gets to the root of our problem which is based on fear, greed, traits much more reliably found in the human experience
universal love is the answer.
love eradicates all that BS.
I acknowldege that, but I also have to acknowledge that the roads are not made of chocolate ice cream and is not likely to in the near future.
So, the question is, how do we get people to love?
By adults loving their children enough not to instill/infuse them with hatred and false doctrines.
And that has to be of their(adults) own free choice.
Loving is more enjoyable than hating.
When we topple the table give everybody the same good life that everybody has, People only have to luxury to survive and kumbaya does not work. People are under extrordinary financial and economic pressure that is just a small dissonance in their life. What you say always sound good but it is impractical in reality.
What I say is possible and any human can practice it.
When you come across a racist, you can think to yourself, that person was never trained to meditate.
Never read the Bible, never read the Gita, never given the love of protective parents. It is a sad sad person who ends up with racial prejudice… or any sort of prejudice for that matter.
When we pre judge, we do not reflect on the actual reality: Prejudice people do not say to themselves:
There is another human a person… just like me.
They do not see the soul.
Because they don't realize they are a soul, I guess… with feelings, hurts and fears.
Empathy is destroyed somehow...
I know kids have it. (empathy)
"When you come across a racist, you can think to yourself, that person was never trained to meditate.
Never read the Bible, never read the Gita, never given the love of protective parents, It is a sad sad person who ends up with racial prejudice… or any sort of prejudice for that matter."
BS. You have no idea of any individual's particular upbringing.
You can ask me that question with incredulity or you can say to yourself, let me think about all those ideas...
They have been thought about for centuries, pondered by the most brilliant minds and most open hearts. A classic line in the film "Time after Time" (1979) speaks of a time traveller, George Herbert Wells and his machine where he wants to go into the future to find utopia. When he was told by his antagonist (Jack the Ripper) that since the Dawn of Man we hunt and are hunted, the idea of a utopian, harmonious society is drivel now and in the future. What we did with rows of chariots in the past we will do with fleets of spaceships in the future. Man has not changed although his technology does which multiplies the pain he inflicts on his neighbor. That fundametal change in the nature of man, will be of more import than his creation itself. Such is the magnitude and subsequently the improbability.
...so a universal society would be better. That is a great solution based on isolating the difficulty.
and thank you.
Racism will not exist if we allow children to love… which they naturally do. As they get older they must learn the principles of karma yoga which Jesus, Krishna and Buddha teach. These principles provide appropriate boundaries and guide behavior toward universal harmony.
"They ?" would rather we surmise, guess and suspect that it is hatred on the part of whites (increasingly) toward blacks.
You may carry on with your unproven theory.
I am one you have not convinced.
Better luck next time.
1. racial profiling,
2. disparate treatment
3. more harsh treatment by law enforcement and the judicial system,
4. the higher rates of unemployment,
5. the documented disparity in opportunities
6. virtually all aspects of American life (please list)
We need PROVEN instances to accept what you say as truth.
Cmon Kathryn, we are not children, you have a computer, look it up. All of this is common knowledge, you can come down from Mount Karma to the earth that the rest of us live upon. A lot of what you say is pie in the sky, where Google cant help, all the things I am telling you about have been documented for some time, just turn on your browser and see for yourself...
I have never been convinced they were cases of pure racism.
Pure racism against our dark skinned people is diminishing because slavery has been gone for more than a whole century. Racism does not make sense expect to stupid ignorant people.
If you say the United States is populated by many many stupid ignorant people, I would agree. More than you are even considering.
How about this:
You whites who are racist,
wherever it exists…
Stupid ignorant people:
1. profile racially
2. issue disparate treatment
3. give more harsh treatment (those who are stupid and/or ignorant in the law enforcement and judicial system)
4. do not employ minorities for the inane reason they are of some other skin color.
5. refuse to issue employment and...
6. other opportunities based on skin color/nationality/culture.
In other words, the problem can only be tackled one person at a time.
We cannot enforce civility.
I forgot to add:
<"what it is that prevents more of you from becoming more TOLERANT faster in preparation for the America of the future,">
What is "America in the future?"
What would "more tolerant" look like?
America in the future: far more culturally and ethnically diverse than it is today. We accept people at their face value instead of wondering why they are not more like us, shake off the provincial nature. Its Capt. Kirk, rather than Capt. Bligh. When the disparity in racial experiences and statistics as applies to this society are gone, that is a big start. Tolerant? we can continue to improve without ever really reaching some optimum ideal. How many decimals can you add to the value of pi, approaching an optimum value but never reaching it. But are we on the way toward reaching it? These events over the last few months tell me no. YOU refers to you and others like you that may want to see a different society but has yet to appreciate the depth and width of the problem and really have no reliable transport to get to a solution even if you would be honest enough and forthcoming enough to look harder to SEE what you say is not seen.
If creating tolerance includes giving kids less pharmaceuticals, more good nutrition, more exercise/freedom and less stupid ignorant racist indoctrination, I agree.
If "you" is the pharmaceutical industry, the media, the politicians, I agree.
If America is still the land of the free under the Constitution of the United States of America in the future, I agree:
"You" need to get with the program.
I think Ben Carson says it all very well...very presidential, unlike our own POTUS, who made it a political issue.
I don't know what makes me more sick -- the extremists with their love of guns or an American society that for the most part doesn't care about these mass murders.
My daugher took all of her clases in that building where the shootings of 32 students took place at Virginia Tech, and three of her friends were among the dead.
The idea that more guns will stop gun violence is just plain stupid.
This isn't a race problem as much as it is a gun problem and a violent, uncaring society problem.
If no one cares, why is everyone talking about it?
Really? Who is everyone? The ones who are talking will move on in a day or two. And nothing will be done about it. Like usual.
What should be "done" about it?
The guy is obviously going to get a trial and then go to prison. What more can be "done"?
Good question. We need more information about this guy's background, but in the case of the Virginia Tech killer, Tech professors had graded papers describing horrific acts of violence and said nothing. His high school had plenty of information about his severe mental illness and said nothing. The courts had him treated for mental illness and convicted him of stalking women, but did nothing more because Virginia hates gun laws.
Despite it all, he could buy guns anyway. To your question, close more loopholes to start, identify mentally ill people who show an inclination to violence and do more to stop them if possible from buying guns.
That would take a lot of money,and they won't do it. The mentally ill can't even get into a psych ward unless they specifically say they are going to harm themselves or others.
The mentally ill are basically let loose on the population. Meds are thrown there way, but many won't take them.
Agreed. Can more be done? Yes, definitely. Is our society willing to do it? So far, only in small steps.
<"YOU refers to you and others like you that may want to see a different society but has yet to appreciate the depth and width of the problem and really have no reliable transport to get to a solution even if you would be honest enough and forthcoming enough to look harder to SEE what you say is not seen.">
Okay good to know.
I will never respond to you again.
... why would I?
Cmon, don't go away mad. It is not an insult but reality that many white folks have a problem with...
I am not going away mad. I do not take it as an insult. As I said there are many stupid ignorant people and to you, I am one of them. Not an insult, just a fact of the matter in your mind.
So, there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise.
- why would I bother?
You have a mind set and you are comfortable with it.
Have a good time in YOUR hell.
You are not stupid, and I did not say that, but you could be naive. Have you ever sat down with a black adult and ask them about their take on your view as to the race question in America? I have been around here for over a half century, and as one of the people who go through this, I am eminently qualified to speak to many of these issues. Trying to share and reveal to you things that can only been seen and appreciate from my side, with the exception of very few. I am trying to educate you to a world with which you are unfamiliar. It is not your fault that you don't know, from what I have seen most of you don't know.
I am one white person who is not in the slightest bit racist.
I take all people on the basis of their character. I recognize those who are of bad character and those who are of good character and everything in between.
My question to you is: Do I seem racist?
Q. 2 how have you accomplished this in this forum?
"I am trying to educate you to a world with which you are unfamiliar."
Case studies/examples of those who " ...in reality practice or accomodate racism around them even unknowingly," would help.
...such as "I have a cousin who could not find a job because he was black. The interviewer told him to his face, 'Sorry, you do not have the proper uh… appearance…'" My cousin understood just fine.
"My sister was stopped on the street for no reason and the officer said to her, 'You look like a hooker because you are … uh, black.'"
You can't take offense, when I am trying to share. Some of the things that I have to share are not always pleasant. I don't know if I have accomplished this but it is my mission to get some things across. We need to understand one another better, as communication and REALLY listening is the key...
We need to have it spelled out for us, then:
1. In what SPECIFIC ways do people "practice or accomodate racism around them?"
2. In what ways do people unknowingly practice racism?
3. In what ways do people unknowingly accommodate racism?
It is good to bring it to a conscious level.
- consciously becoming aware of what we are doing in our day to day thoughts and lives would help. Is the problem obvious? Not to us who don't deal with/recieve this level of discrimination.
(Actually, I have been profiled and discriminated against in the work world because of my long hair… and I am a female! It is better now… long hair in the work place for females has become much more acceptable.
Once, I applied to be a maid when I lived on the coast, up north in Mendocino. I was told I was overly qualified!!
Another time I was profiled to be hippie, called every name in the book, hair yanked back as I sat on the floor with a boot on my back by the arresting officer and thrown in the holding tank for five hours… for nothing! I've told this story before, and Cgenaea said it can happen daily to blacks.)
It will take a little time to gather my evidence to support my point, its coming
So you don't have incidents to tell us this very second?
Are you saying you are black but, you yourself have never been dealt a racist hand?
That does not mean that my explanations will be any less convincing upon its presentation.
Yes, I have been dealt a racist hand: Embarking on my new federal job 28 years ago, my immediatre supervisor resented my presence and would not properly mentor me into my new position. She was a white female, her boss was the reason I got the job. Regardless of the fact that I had a college degree, had prior federal procurement experience, passed the aptitude test with a 96 was a former military officer with leadership experience, I was black and that reduced me to an affirmative action hire in her mind and in that of many co-workers, never mind that I was qualified far beyond the levels of the disgruntled. This woman was eventually forced to leave because of me and conflicts with her boss as to whether I was being treated fairly.
http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/21/news/ec … nequality/
http://www.crf-usa.org/brown-v-board-50 … stice.html
I provided some data to janesix when I told her that studies showed that white felons had a better chance of getting a job at interview than those blacks without records, that is astounding and I will dredge the evidence if you insist.
Was your boss white?
and did it all end in your favor, or did it not?
These links prove nothing:
From link 1:
" Blacks ... typically have lower incomes than whites, which also makes it harder for them to save and build wealth. The median income for black households is less than 60% that of white ones."
From link 2:
"The question remains whether these statistics come from racism in the criminal justice system or from other causes. Social scientists and politicians have argued about this question for decades."
yes, the boss was white and it ended in my favor, but with the workplace hostility based on race, it could have easily have gone the other way. How do you succeed without a mentor. They won't prove anything if you are not looking did you cherry pick one sentence or did you look at the evidence provided in the rest of the article. I wonder if you would admit you were in error even if all the evidence was put before you. These kinds of people are not open to considering an alternative to what they believe about people and a situation that they no little if anything about. Hopefully, you are not one of those. My brother and I argued one time about the birth year of Calvin Coolidge, i knew the correct year from memory, he disputed it. When I proved my case with the World Book, he said that encloypedias could be wrong...
You are always dissecting things so why the great disparity in wealth, it is not that you white folks are so much smarter than the rest of us. You put forth much that you cannot prove beyond your intuition. How about the hard core of statistics, will you discount that as well?
I am a white person at the $30,000 level of income. Is this somehow important at all in some grand scheme?
Is it because I have been labeled a hippie who refuses to cut her hair?
The problem that I have with a lot of you is that you take your personal experiences and observations and want to apply them to society in general and that is incorrect. I have to use objective sources to suppoprt claims one way or the other.
You seem to be against the GOP and against whites across the board.
The majority of conservatives and whites are NOT racist. And conservatives are also fed up with the GOP.
Yes, it is not seem, it is. I am against the GOP, but its ideology and platform is clearly stated and it is opposed to my value and principles.Your saying that I am antagonistic toward all whites is incorrect. If you are a rightwinger black or white, I am coming after you. My problems are not racial but ideologically based. By the policies of the GOP, it is hard to believe that there is not racial animosity coming from that party.
<They won't prove anything if you are not looking did you cherry pick one sentence or did you look at the evidence provided in the rest of the article.>
- did you read more than the first couple of paragraphs?
here is something just for you, you can dispute these studies but you must counter with factual based data to support your intuitive statements and observations
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/fergus … cial-bias/
From link 3
'"Many whites -- including many millennials -- believe discrimination against whites is more prevalent than discrimination against blacks.'
Racism has evolved, but our language for describing it hasn't, he says."
"Colorblind racism is the new racial music most people dance to," he says. "The 'new racism' is subtle, institutionalized and seemingly nonracial."
Here is the link,,,
The fact being that whites hold 88 percent of the national wealth, and these generation Y people thinks they are being discriminated against, they have no idea.
Colorblind racism, while seemingly non-racial is anything but.. It certainly is institutionalized and subtle, now that is true.
him… Janesix is not transexual as far as I know.
Yes, there is the working while Black syndrome. Many Blacks in professional and managerial positions are quite aware of this phenomena. Thankfully, the offender left. Many times the offender doesn't leave and create a less than pleasant atmosphere for Black professionals and managers. Blacks have to be 4X to 6X as good as Caucasians in similar positions to get noticed. Caucasians in many workplaces can get away with things that Blacks would be disciplined for a fraction of. That is a fact in the corporate world.
Thank you Grace for helping me explain the unexplainable to the incredulous
Working while Black is an undeniable fact in the corporate world. Everyone regardless of race knows this whether he/she acknowledges it or not, IT DEFINITELY EXISTS. This reminds me of an article when Viola Davis, Academy Award Winner, pointed out that there is racism in Hollywood and the dearth of roles for Black actresses particularly. Well, Charlize Theron admonished her to be more positive in her attitude and not to say such a statement. Ms. Davis as a Black woman, a dark-skinned Black woman knows that racism in Hollywood is VISIBLE while Ms. Theron, a blonde Caucasian, hasn't not experienced Hollywood racism.
Don't you think it is getting better?
This country has a tainted past which we are recovering from.
Spock says to Kirk during one of his pugnacious moments "Captain, its the gas, the Xenon gas'. Yes this unseen, unbelieved gas that affects ones behavior
Now that I have corrobaration with my account of things, are you more amenable toward listnening.? Grace has shown you that the disperities are real and not being made up.
As for is it getting better? During this thread you denied that there was anything that needed to improve, as you did not see racism in your environment. Trust me, it is there! It is quiite evident for most of us as quite invisible to you.
My spouse gave me an example, she said that when in college, she said that the rape threat permeated the thoughts of young women much of the time. As a male, I understood the crime as unfortunate random occurrence much like having my house robbed. But for the women that lived with it day by day, their reality was different. So who do you think has the more pertinent and accurate perspective on this problem, certainly not me, the man, for which it poses no danger? So I don't go around claiming to know and understand that that is outside my experience.
As for it getting better, I would say that what was once overt is now covert, as most have learned to accomodate rather than really change. But that is ok, as from an objective standpoint it is better than it was before.
Tainted past, so you do acknowledge that there has been a problem, and as a result there is a circumstance or a something from which we need to recover?
I said this in my first comment:
"Yeah, lets bring up racism… cause we whites are such prejudiced types of people, aren't we?
All people have empathy, compassion and goodness in the make-ups of their very beings. It is only when we mess with what we naturally are that the nature of a human goes bad. Racism is learned. It is not natural."
This is what I have been trying to back up.
You said racism in our country is obvious/apparent based on this terrible incident caused by this messed up kid.
That this incident is somehow indicative pervasive racism of whites.
I am just saying racism has been/is subsiding. That it is not completly gone is disturbing and unbelievable to me.
I see every person as just a person.. and as Ben Carson, the surgeon, said: Every brain looks just the same.
I said in the thread that racism is an attitude held by the ignorant and stupid. They focus on the outer. The problem is one of prejudice.
If we people could go inward toward the heart, the problem would disappear.
That you want to pinpoint the problem irritates me because it does no good. What do you want to accomplish by doing so?
Ben Carson for President!
I pinpoint the problem because it is fundamental to understanding why we have difficulty getting along.
Ben Carson is too rightwing wacko for my consideration
we don't get along because of our differing points of view.
let me tell you a true anecdote:
My daughter was friends with a black girl she met in high school. She went with "Jill" to her choir practice for a couple of months and loved it. They put on a performance and I went to see it, not knowing I would be the ONLY white there! (AME in Altadena, a mostly black community, but also mixed.)
I was not greeted warmly. I was looked at with askance glances. I complimented one man I was introduced to on his beautiful and colorful suit and he just backed away.
I am not kidding, it was chilly. Why they allowed my daughter in there, I have no idea. (They seemed to like her just fine, maybe its just me.)
Anyway, there she was singing away with the rest of the smiling, singing, soulful dark faces... the only pale face in the choir. And I LOVED the music!
WHY would a twenty year old hate blacks in today's world to the extent that he would KILL them in CHURCH?????
It makes no sense.
I hope we can learn why. Its not racism.
Its a way bigger problem.
Why do you think so? People have commited much worse atrocities in the name of racism. Look at the Holocaust.
I don't know why either, but obviously he does, explaining the true nature of bigotry is partt of your education.
If you think the Holocaust was the result of the ideas of one insane man, you are kidding yourself.
They had a leader who was nuts. Germans are still embarrassed about what took place in the name of national pride.
...maybe it was a matter of ethnic cleansing for the sake of national pride for this twenty year old.
Yeah, he was on pharmaceuticals.
Cmon, Kathryn, he is a racist, from how many sources do you need to have that confirmed for you? Ethnic cleasing, my foot. He is a cold blooded killer that needs to be dealt the appropriate penalty.
You are close.
"That's what Roof told investigators, according to one of the officials.
CNN's Evan Perez and Wesley Bruer were the first to report Roof's confession. Others earlier gave a glimpse into his twisted motivation -- including at the time and site of the shooting, Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church. There, a survivor told Sylvia Johnson that Roof answered one man's pleas to stop by saying, "No, you've raped our women, and you are taking over the country ... I have to do what I have to do."
A friend recalled a drunken Roof ranting one night about his unspecified six-month plan "to do something crazy" in order "to start a race war." And the Berkeley County, South Carolina, government tweeted a picture of him in a jacket with flags from apartheid-era South Africa and nearby Rhodesia, a former British colony that was ruled by a white minority until it became independent in 1980."
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/19/us/charle … ting-main/
Hitler clearly laid out his plans for world conquest and his racial resentment in his book "Mein Kamph'. While he was mad, there was a method to his madness.
I honestly don't think the kid was crazy. Just a racist <snipped>.
Right. Right. Right.
I mean, I whole heartedly disagree.
He was deranged and mentally impaired due to some substance. I could bet a million virtual dollars.
Blood test results please.
Is that too much to ask?
Is it too much to ask to know his background?
Was he raised in daycare since he was six months old?
You insist he was on "pharmaceuticals" yet you have provided no information on this. Yet again.
Its pretty obvious.
It is exceedingly likely.
It is an impossibility he was NOT influenced by the habitual use of some type of mind altering substance.
An utter Impossibility!
If not substance abuse, abandonment by parents on some level since he was born.
If this turns out to be the case, put 'em all in jail.
Hold 'em ALL responsible!
No it isn't. You know nothing and have no proof.
...something is wrong with his psyche. What caused it, is the question.
His actions PROVE there is something wrong with his psyche.
Maybe all racists have impaired psyches.
I am not using this to excuse racism,(of course,) but maybe this where we can fix the situation.
As I have mentioned many times before:
**** In Childhood ****
Jerks are created, they are not natural.
Why do I believe this? Because we are in reality souls of God. Some loose their way due to outer circumstances. All racists are jerks. All have been created by bitterness, hatred, arrogance, etc... all negative crap - not natural to the soul.
THE WAY I SEE IT
Nope. You don't seem to understand much about human nature.
Have fun in YOUR hell. I offer a way to fix and understand and you say it is impossible.
True for you only.
Furthermore from link 2:
"... sociologist William Wilbanks rejected the discrimination argument. In his book, The Myth of a Racist Criminal Justice System, Wilbanks reviewed scores of studies that showed statistical inequalities between whites and blacks in arrest rates, imprisonment, and other areas of criminal justice. He found that the inequalities came from factors other than racial discrimination, such as poverty and the defendant’s prior record."
RAcial discrimination while not the only factor IS still a factor, do white folks have this obstacle in their way, leaving out poverty and the defendants prior record? I have this one guy that resists, what about the rest of the article. I did present the information in an unbiased way. There are the one or two science guys that deny climate change too...........
I don't know what you are talking about.
As far as I know, whites AND blacks are discriminated against if their characters are bad.
"2 recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another." D
There is a lot of unprovable conjecture in the article from link 2 such as:
"Unintended discrimination can occur at many points in the legal process. Probation officers often prepare pre-sentencing reports for a judge. The judge uses the reports to help make sentencing decisions. Reports include information on the criminal’s prior record, family background, education, marital status, and employment history. Many African-Americans convicted of crimes come from deprived backgrounds. They may have things in their record — unemployment, trouble in school, family problems — that judges, who largely come from middle-class backgrounds, cannot relate to. This *may* sway some judges to treat them more harshly in sentencing."
Maybe its because appropriate justice was served.
"maybe its because appropriate justice was served" oh, eally? The point that is being made is that when black and whites have similar criminal records, blacks are treated more harshly under the criminal justice system. That is explained by the "bias" (you do remember that term in the CNN article) works against blacks when otherwise all things are equal.
Credence2 is right on this synopsis. There is a very differential, even disparate standard of justice in American society and culture. Caucasians receive more preferential treatment in terms of sentencing that Blacks do for the same or similar crimes e.g. the case of George Zimmerman. If he was Black and killed a Caucasian teenager, he would be sentenced big time. His race/ethnicity was a huge factor in his being let go. He was judged by his peers of Caucasian jurors who declared his innocence. Many Caucasians who murder Blacks were either given light sentences in comparison to their crimes or had their cases dismissed.....
Could I please remind you that the majority of Americans elected a black man over a white?
Could I also please remind you we did not have a revolution over his instituting Socialized Health Insurance? We have all cooperated just fine.
Could I also remind you that President Obama MOST OFTEN gets his way in the White house?
And as you say yourself:
"By the policies of the GOP, it is hard to believe that there is not racial animosity coming from that party."
Not so fast!
In 2012, 59 percent of whites voted for Romney, in 2008 about 55 percent voted for McCain. The only reason Obama won was the overwhelming support he received from people of color. So, dont pull your arm out of its socket patting yourself on the back.
The ACA intiative was duly legislated and acted upon by the executive and still, today, having aspects of the program subject to judicial review. We did not have a revolution in regards to the 'New Deal" or Medicaid/Medicare, why should I expect that here?
Where have you been the last 6 years? Obama and his initiatives has been obstructed by the GOP from the day he took office. So MOST OFTEN is not a term that I would use.
There is a reason why 1 percent of the black vote in S.Carolina goes to GOP candidates. Voter supression is first that comes to mind, I and and most of us resent the attempt to restrict and discourage our access to the ballot. Blacks, as a poorer subset of the larger society, are simply not going to receive support from a party that caters to the wealthy.
Promptly put this red handed killer to death. He in no way represents the vast magority of anglos.
Well, you want to reveal your view of of politics and I want to defend whites by reminding you that all people are of God and have souls. But, this fact is buried and hidden to varying degrees throughout society. You cannot hate people just because they are fallible humans. Also, you seem to take a victim role. Why? You are a child of God.
You seem to hate whites. YOU seem racist against whites, quite frankly.
So, I guess I am done.
I find whites irritating as well, but I cannot hate.
I am not attacking youand whites in general, just trying to reveal operating factors of our culture, I don't even think that most of you are aware of its implications, and I don't blame you for it. It is a very clever and insidious system put in place before most of us were aware and conscious. But, if you really want to improve things you have to be open to its existence. Grace has corroborated this for you, she is not attacking whites. She is saying the same thing I am.
Besides, some of my best friends are white!
But you do seem very negative for some reason.
why the anger?
what specifically are you angry about?
maybe it is not even a black/ white issue. Maybe it is one of the injustice of the world… The outer world.
I can't stand it, myself.
Not negative, realistic, based on a tapestry, a pattern that has been evident over many generation here in America. Kumbaya is not going to solve the problem of acknowleging the need for respect between us, today under our current reality on Planet Earth, now.
This is about education, not anger. And like I said before, sometimes the truth hurts....
Kathryn, let's cut to the chase. Do you believe that all black people who recount personal experiences of racism, are just pretending, or are somehow mistaken? And do you believe that every academic study, article, social experiment, and statistic that indicates that racism exists in various forms, is wrong? Is that what you believe?
I ask, because it seems as though you are in complete denial that racism exists, and I don't want to accuse you of being unreasonable if that's not really what you are saying.
I am saying that we can get over it faster if we just let nature take its course. It was on the way out. I still think its just being made up to get us to hate each other. There is an attack on our country from without/ from within. Dividing us up is one way to seize control. United we stand. Why can't we stand together? Because we keep focusing and pinpointing something which will go away of its own accord and has gone away to a huge extent. Only individuals wishing to see the best in each other, accepting each other and respecting each other can get past the hatreds, injustices and hurts of the past. If y'all are trying to find a solution that is one thing… If you just want to complain and pinpoint and say there is no solution, that is another.
I am all about a solution… and not one that comes from the gov't. or political policies/agendas.
My mother taught PE at the Jr. College level and enjoyed her experience at a black-majority community college. I was brought up knowing we are all God's children.
I don't understand. Do nothing and racism will disappear by itself? Is that what you're saying?
You also say "[racism] was on the way out". But surely any progress made in racial equality is mostly because of the blood, sweat and tears of all the people over the years who have contributed to the civil rights movement. And that was ultimately started with a bloody civil war. Is that what you consider to be "nature taking its course"? I don't follow your argument.
A prayer by Rabbi Harold Kushner:
A Prayer for the World
"Let the rain come and wash away ancient grudges and bitter hatreds held and nurtured over generations.
Let the rain wash away the memory of the hurt, the neglect.
Then, let the warmth of the sun heal us wherever we are broken.
Let it burn away the fog so we can see each other clearly...
So we can see beyond the labels, beyond accents, gender or skin color.
Let the warmth and brightness of the sun melt our selfishness so we can share the joys and feel the sorrows of our neighbors.
Let the earth, nourished by the rain, bring forth flowers to surround us with beauty.
Let the mountains teach our hearts to reach upward to heaven."
by snapcracklepop 23 months ago
Have you ever thought about resigning as a member from your place of worship?Why or why not? What do you expect to get from a place of worship?
by shamanismandyou 6 years ago
Does one have to go to church to be close to God?I mean Jesus taught out in the open, not in a church. Do you really have to go to church in order to be close to God, or can we worship him outside?
by ram_m 5 years ago
Why is it that women have to cover their head while entering a place of worship
by pedagog 6 years ago
What is the place of worship in every religion? and what does that name means?at least submit the name of your religious place of worship and meaning of that name if it is not given.
by fierycj 9 years ago
Check this mad stuff that happens sometimes in my Church. There's this old vet fella - highly respected and all in the Church. And whenever there's like a combined service in the parish, this guy likes to play the piano everytime. And its crazy really, cos this dude cant play squawt. But cos his so...
by Credence2 3 years ago
NRA Board of Directors Member Charles Cotton blames Pastor Pinckley, a vicitm of the church massacre, for his own death because as a legislator he voted against the universal concealed carry laws in South Carolina. According to Cotton, if he had have supported the law, the members of his...
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