Black Identity Extremists? Never heard of them
( So guess who just became public enemy no 1.)
Newsweek Article banner headline
FBI RANKS 'BLACK IDENTITY EXTREMISTS' BIGGER THREAT THAN AL QAEDA, WHITE SUPREMACISTS: LEAKED DOCUMENTS
Leaked FBI documents indicate "black identity extremists" and animal rights activists are among the agency's top counterterrorism priorities under President Donald Trump.
The FBI's priority list documents, obtained by The Young Turks Thursday, lay out the Bureau's 2018 fiscal year focal points in counterterrorism, cyber crime and counterintelligence.
The 2018-19 "Threat Guidance" documents describe black identity extremists (BIEs) as those who "use force or violence in violation of criminal law in response to perceived racism and injustice in American society." The files claimed some BIEs acted in hopes of "establishing a separate black homeland or autonomous black social institutions, communities or governing organizations within the USA."
An internal FBI report from August 2017 was widely criticized for using the BIE label, which many called racist. But the Consolidated Strategy Guide documents leaked this week show the FBI kept the term and made BIEs one of its top counterterrorism priorities.
Under the Trump administration, they're considered a bigger threat than terror groups such as Al Qaeda.
"Animal rights/environmental extremists" and "anti-authority extremists" were also deemed top existential threats.
---------------
Why must white and the renown institutions they control, continue to torment us so?
Background article:
https://www.newsweek.com/fbi-leak-black … at-1453362
These are the kinds of thing that keep us apart in 2019 and will continue to keep us at odds with one another because of these continued assaults.
I don't see body counts associated with BIE or animal activists? The body counts are with right wing white supremists, and to a lesser extent within the U.S., Al Qaida.
So why create this demon? Some extreme way to stop Black dissent regarding the current system?
And people want me to believe that Trump's attitude is racially neutral?
The Right is going to attempt to obfuscate and call it fake news, but this information has come from many sources. So, I ask the Right and Conservatives,"WHY"This is cool. As much outrage as the average white person expresses when they feel the 'white supremacist' label is being used to falsely identify groups not associated with 'white supremacy'.
But, seriously. I'd like to see the statistics and the data. What constitutes a BIE? What crimes would be associated with BIE statistics. It does sound a little crazy. I'd like more info, if it's not politically incorrect to want to understand better.
I just looked it up. It appears it was an overreaction to rhetoric coming out of the BLM movement. It appears they were told it was ill advised. Not sure that stands. It was 2 years ago.Mislabel aside white supremacy does exist and has a corresponding body count how do a non-existent entity like BIE compare?
As to what crimes, do they considerblack on black crime as qualifying?there has been no organized movement, so what are we talking. BLM is a form of dissent that I welcome but has come without homicides, how do Islamic violence or white supremacists compare?
Why would the FBI see them as such a Preeminent threat?
This is one hell of an overreaction without any basis in reality.
And after a time the designation BIE was removed according to info provided by Panther, but how did it get to this level in the first place?As I said, I had never heard of the term and it seemed a little crazy. I did look it up and shared what I found.
Take it for whatever you want to.I think you are right bud - the dangers of the White Supremacist should never be minimized. Whether they are a splintered faction or a unified movement, they are deadly dangerous.
But, my perception, from recollection, is that right after the BLM movement burst onto the scene there was a lot of very disturbing and potentially threatening rhetoric associated with the movement. Granted it only took a little investigation to learn that the "bad folks" of the movement were extremist factions, but still, they tainted the movement.
GABLM was a picnic compared to the groups that Trump wanted us to ignore. I don't recall any real issue beyond their widespread dissent against the current administration and the system in general. Yes, I know that in the eyes of many that made them dangerous, but from our side they were heroes.
How does "rhetoric" compare with or rise to the level of murderous assault?
The "extremist factions" if any in BIE were school boys compared with mildest of white supremacist. How dare the FBI try to make the two appear equivalent.You don't recall the extreme comments of the BLM factions that arose after the original BLM organization became known? Would it do any good to search past forum threads, (as I recall), where you condemned them and agreed that the factions were not the essence of the BLM movement?
None of this is meant to diminish the dangers and rhetoric of the White Supremacist groups, but it is meant to delineate when the BIE first became an FBI issue. So far, all sources predate its origin to the Trump administration.
Do you still want to blame it on Pres. Trump's "racist attitude"?
GAOf course, I am against extremism from all sources, but do you really believe that the rhetoric of BLM rose to the levels of real violence perpetrated by white supremists or Islamic groups? But in Trumps FBI, that is what you were led to believe.
"Trump's FBI"? Come on bud, think of that first year. Do you really want to label Comey's FBI as Trump's FBI?
Do Peter Stork, Ohr, the anti-Trump internal FBI email exchanges, the controversy over what the FBI rank and file really thought about Pres. Trump ring a bell with you?
Is that 2017 FBI the "Trump FBI" you speak of?
Come on bud, think back. 2017 was so full of headlines about Trump's relationship with the FBI that it is incredible that you would consider Comey's FBI to be Trump's FBI.
I would be hard-pressed to think of any reporting of the 2017 FBI as being supportive of the President. Yet, even so, you still want to claim Comey's FBI curtsied to the president and adopted this new BIE stance. Geesh.
As a side note; No I don't see any comparison of the BLM rhetoric with the worst White Supremacist rhetoric. But that is not the point of the conversation. I don't even think I can find any validity with the FBI's BIE position. However, that isn't the issue. The issue is you blaming Trump for something that strongly appears to predate his administration.
GASince you weighed in on one of my discussions....
When an employee is at odds with the boss but wants to keep his job, that employee often chooses his battles, deciding to accept odious policies or orders so as to maintain a semblance of cooperation. It is possible that Comey did this, and more than once. If Comey was the one who came up with the designation, why did it take him three years?
I find credence's take on the matter to be reasonable.You are always welcome to weigh-in on any discussion I am having Sandy. Don't hesitate.
I didn't find anything that could prove Credence2's perception wrong. (but I didn't look too deeply) And it isn't something I would deny could be a Trump initiative.
But, the timing--so early in the Trump presidency--and the post-Fergusson references, and Comey being the FBI director at the time cast some doubt that this was a new thing directed by Trump.
Regarding your question as to it taking Comey three years to come-up with the designation, I don't know that he did. Maybe this leaked' 2017 Strategy Guide was just a continuation of a yearly process, with the Director's participation being only to sign-off on it or shoot it down.
I only expressed doubt that the Trump conclusion was rock solid, so now I guess I will have to look deeper so I can either eat my words or prove them correct.
As Arnold says; "I'll be back"
GA
Not sure how this figures into the mix:
Dated July 24, 2019: FBI abandons use of term "Black Identity Extremism"It figures well, , the article I quoted may well be dated. But this designation for BIE has been in place for a long period without any real basis for it supplanting far more virulent sources of violence.
It figures as an example of the power of the PC movement. Whether the policy is right or wrong seems to matter less than whether it is articulated correctly.
GAThe FBI is finally being aware that Caucasian extremists are dangerous in light of the massive shootings. Black so-called extremists aren't as dangerous-for the most part, they want Black empowerment.
People are people. Why are you dividing them? All humans are evil.
"The FBI has also begun using "Racially Motivated Extremism" as a watered-down label for white nationalists groups." - from the article
It's interesting that blacks on the target list have become "Black Identity Extremists" but the whites have recently take on the label of "Racially Motivated Extremism".
Seems to me that if you are going to have Black Identity Extremists the FBI should also have White Identity Extremists.Promisem, It just appears that the current administration wants to exaggerate the threat posed by blacks and minimize thos presented by the white Right Extremists who simply through the virulence and frequency of violence and past record of such deserve the greater level of attention and scrutiny.
Here is a breakdown of domestic extremist terrorism in 2018:
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ … n+2018.pdfI fail to realize why people consistently make terrorist comparisons and source and nature as six=half a dozen?
I don't find any BIE statistics anywhere supporting it being a preeminent threat while white supremacy is a modest threat? How could that be?
The statistics ring loud and clear, who would dare to dispute the clear direction these attacks have been taking?
But I have an idea or two as to who might....."But I have an idea or two as to who might....."
How does that thought hold up when the mentioned timelines are considered?
Are you thinking that the FBI was Trumpian racist before Trump?
Or are you saying that the FBI was just regular white-man racist before Trump?
GAMy point, GA, is that the offending term and those events that were to be considered part of the new designation of BIE was created smack dab during the Era of Trump, even though a past event was included to help define this "new" category of terrorist activity
"Smack dab" Usually intended to mean right in the middle of something. Yet the truth of your "smack dab" is 7 months into the new administration and done by a confirmed anti-Trump FBI director.
That just doesn't work for me Cred. If it had been further into his administration, (I don't see this as a first 100 days priority), and done by what could be considered more of a 'Trump man' FBI director, then I might not be so adamant in my thoughts. But, given the early time frame and Comey as FBI director, I just don't see it.
To follow your thought demands that Comey be seen as a Trump man. Is that your impression of him?
GA
Color me surprised Cred. I have never heard of this before.
But I am not surprised that this is being laid on Pres. Trump, and his administration's doorstep.
Starting with your comment; "And people want me to believe that Trump's attitude is racially neutral?" and the following comments in this thread, would I be way off-base to perceive this inference, (and outright declarations), that this is a Pres. Trump-driven issue?
I couldn't be sure, so I took a quick look at the history of the "BIE" issue.
I didn't find enough to offer a conclusive opinion, but I did find enough to offer some food for thought.
One of the sources I have seen you rely on, Salon.com, offers this BIE thing as a post-Fergusson, (2014), happening:
"Leaked documents show FBI targeted post-Ferguson "black identity extremists" over white supremacists"
That is just the article title, but the article does seem to date the FBI BIE designation to the Obama administration.
Then, An article for the theintercept.com also noted the post-Fergusson focus: (I am not endorsing the authority of this site, it just came up in the search)
"Three years later, the FBI listed Davis’s case in a secret memo warning of the rise of a “black identity extremist” movement whose members’ “perceptions of police brutality against African Americans” spurred what the FBI claimed was “an increase in premeditated, retaliatory lethal violence against law enforcement.”
Granted it does say "three years later," which would be 2017, (Trump's administration), but it was referring to a 2014 event and it's inference is that this FBI focus was pre-Trump administration.
Further, our semi-dependable Wikipedia mentions an August 2017 FBI report using the BIE designation. This would be 7 months into the Trump administration, and, James Comey was the FBI director.
I know all of that seems like a lot of Don W.-type citations, but it seems here lately that a contrary opinion is just stuff if it isn't supported, so I just offered it as support for my thoughts that this may be an FBI developed issue rather than a Trump administration directive.
I can't offer anything conclusive, but is that enough food for thought to prompt consideration that this BIE issue has nothing to do with Pres. Trump or his administration directives?
GAGA,
I won't use Salon as a sole source for information, but I will use it to find other more mainstream sources to corroborate it.
From Salon:
According to previous guides, the FBI believes that the threat originated from the Black Lives Matter movement in response to the 2014 shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri.
“The FBI judges BIE perceptions of police brutality against African Americans have likely motivated acts of pre-meditated, retaliatory lethal violence against law enforcement,” the 2018 guide said. “The FBI first observed this activity following the August 2014 shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, and the subsequent acquittal of police officers involved in that incident.”
The 2018 guide also revealed that the FBI intended to counter the threat of black identity extremists with an operation called IRON FIST, which included undercover operatives:
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I counter with this definition of the date and origin of the term, I think that the Ferguson events were considered part and parcel of BIE retroactively.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_I … Extremists
We are talking about early 2017, where at least according to Wikipedia, this all got started.Well, it seems you agree that the 2014 Fergusson event and BLM were a starting point of the BIE focus. (an Obama administration time-frame)
What about Comey being the FBI director in 2017 when the first Trump administration links were made? Do you think Comey was a Trump administration lackey?
"I counter with this definition of the date and origin of the term, I think that the Ferguson events were considered part and parcel of BIE retroactively."
I agree. That is also why I think some thought should be given to that point before painting this as a Trump administration directive.
Is that still your thought, even after the point you made, that Trump is responsible for this FBI BIE issue?
GAYes, Trump is responsible because these events that occurred in 2014 and they were not designated as BIE until 3 years later. Who assigned this fictional designation? You know who, and his last name was not Obama. Was there even such a definition for the events associated with BLM or kneeling protests until 2017? Trump's attempts to demonize Black people is a continued source of distrust against him specifically and the GOP in general.
Trump needed to draw attention from the violence associated with his kindred White supremacists by attempting to create a status for violent terrorism from Blacks who were mostly in stages on dissent, not promoting violence.
This is not supported even from the Wildest of imagination. It is worse than J. Edgar during the Civil Rights Era.
.It sounds like you think Comey was a Trump lackey. How else can you justify his FBI adopting the BIE stance in 2017?
Are you really ignoring references to the 2014 Fergusson time-frame as a point of importance?
Is that really the position you want to take, Comey as a Trump flunky just following whatever directive the administration sent down? The same Comey that leaked classified info to prompt a Trump investigation? That Comey?
Come on Cred, give that some thought.
GAI think that we a speaking past each other. BIE is a Trump invention, and if you wanted to keep working for Trump, you had better get on board.
It is convenient to use 2014 as a frame of reference, but the Obama administration did not see fit to create another status or designation of terrorist on account of it. We had to wait for Trump to do that.
I can't speak to the motives of Comey and what would drive him at any stage of his career when defending himself against the disloyalty of his boss. Perhaps, what was considered offensive to Minorities was the least of his concerns. Accommodation in such a way is not an unheard of concept in race relations.Okay bud. I don't think we are "speaking past each other," I think you are wedded to a position. Contrary information is non-conclusive, and that appears enough for you. So I will leave you to it.
I disagree. I can't imagine Comey inventing this BIE thing because of a Pres. Trump directive. Apparently, you can. So be it.
GADo we know Comey invented the BIE thing?
I haven't found anything other than the 12-page report, prepared by the F.B.I. Domestic Terrorism Analysis Unit in August, 2017 and leaked in October 2017.
Comey was fired in May, 2017.
And now the leaked 2018-19 "Threat Guidance".I don't think we do know that Comey invented it IslandMom. I pulled him into it only because the original inference was that the FBI was being a tool for Trump.
You can see my response to PrettyPanther for the reasons I have doubt.
GAI understand. But your point about Comey is not a valid one (at least for now).
Check my response to Credence2. In my walk-about Comey did come out clean. One link even noted that under his watch White Supremacist efforts were enhanced. It was also noted that he kept a copy of the original MLK wiretap order on his desk to remind him of the past missteps of his agency.
"What followed, according to Maxwell, was decades of FBI pursuit of black radicals in the belief, often mistaken, that they were part of a larger subversive movement. “It’s deep in the bureau’s DNA,” he said.
Lately, that seemed to be changing. As FBI director, James Comey famously kept a copy of the Martin Luther King Jr. wiretap order on his desk as a reminder of the bureau’s past abuses and made new agents learn the history of the FBI’s pursuit of the civil rights leader.
The FBI also appeared to be focusing more attention on the threat of white supremacists. In May, the FBI warned that white supremacist violence was growing, according to a report obtained and published by FP. That same report noted that white supremacists were responsible for more attacks in the United States than any other extremist group, including Islamic extremists."
source: ForiegnPolicy.org "The FBI’s New U.S. Terrorist Threat: ‘Black Identity Extremists’"
I still contend Comey would have fought this. *shrug
GA
Virtually everysource, as mentioned by Islandbites below, takes us to 2017. Why are you clinging to 2014 as the year? Take a look at the Wikipedia link and the footnotes that show other sources in regards to this matter, do you see 2014 anywhere?
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/15/opin … trump.html
Here is a 2017 NYT article to help support my position.That was a helpful link Cred. It led to over a dozen follow-up links.
But first, remember that I am not defending the FBI or this policy. I am only trying to see if it is a Trump administration directed policy.
Here is what I found:
This issue seems to be an almost institutionalized FBI thing:
From Foriegnpolicy.org:
"“Black protests get conflated for the bureau [with communism], and it begins there,” said William Maxwell, a professor at Washington University in St. Louis, who has researched the FBI’s monitoring of black writers in the 20th century.
What followed, according to Maxwell, was decades of FBI pursuit of black radicals in the belief, often mistaken, that they were part of a larger subversive movement. “It’s deep in the bureau’s DNA,” he said."
From the Southern Poverty Law Center:
"In the FBI’s report, BIE is described as a conglomeration of black nationalists, black supremacists, and black separatists, among other disaffiliated racist individuals who are anti-police, anti-white, and/or seeking to rectify perceived social injustices against blacks. The FBI essentially merged these various black hate groups under one umbrella, giving it a new name, in the hopes of classifying these groups as an organized extremist movement. "
Combine those thoughts with the existence of at least two prior FBI Bulletins regarding this matter, (although they used different names; Black Separatist Extremists, (BSE), and Moorish Sovereign Citizen Extremists, (SCE)), one in 2014 and the other in 2016, and I end up seeing this as not a new FBI thing.
Almost all of the links checked seemed to agree based on their criticism of the FBI. I only found two mentions of it being a possible Trump administration political move.
Of course, you will think my finds biased because I am looking for points to support my position, (like you are yours).
However, I couldn't find a 'smoking gun' to support my contention it was just an FBI thing, but I also didn't find a 'smoking gun'
to prove it was a Trump administration political move.
I would call it a toss-up, except that without that proof it was all an FBI thing, there were two points that leaned in your favor.
One was the changes to the 2018 DHS grants funding to domestic terrorist fighting organizations where funding for anti-White Supremacists organizations was cut by the Trump administration, and the other was the timing of the BIE consolidation and emphasis.
My bottom line: It is possible you are right, this could be a Trump thing, but I still found enough FBI history of such actions to have a doubt and to see possible uncertainty.
*in answer to your question about my focus on Fergusson and 2014, that was due to the first mentioned 2014 FBI Bulletin about BIE violence. (they called it BSE violence in that bulletin. You are right that the BIE designation is a 2017 thing.
Here are the headlines of some of my travels:
Foriegnpolicy.org:
The FBI’s New U.S. Terrorist Threat: ‘Black Identity Extremists’
Foriegnpolicy.org
DHS Strips Funding From Group That Counters Neo-Nazi Violence
The 2017 FBI Report
Black Identity Extremists Likely Motivated to Target Law Enforcement Officers
Southern Poverty Law Center:
FBI 'Black Identity Extremists' report stirs controversy
RawStory.com
Rep. Karen Bass blasts Jeff Sessions over Justice Department report on ‘black identity extremists’
New York Times Opinion piece
The F.B.I.’s Black Phantom Menace
FBI Manual of Investigative Operations
Manual of Investigative Operations and Guidelines (MIOG) Part 02 - 01 of 06
GA"But first, remember that I am not defending the FBI or this policy. I am only trying to see if it is a Trump administration directed policy"
I would never suggest that you would be in defense of such a policy. I find it strange that despite of Ferguson 2014 and all the events that would form the basis of a BIE designation, since, it was not identified as such until the Trump administration. That has to be more than a coincidence.
There has been exaggerated fear of AAs, their drive toward equality and their right to dissent regarding the current order of things. These irrational outcomes was as you mentioned, tied in with ML King and the idea that Blacks should not defend themselves and must be in league with Communists for not docilly accepting their lot in this society.
With so much time having passed, one would think that lessons were learned and a clean agency, post Hoover would emerge.
Like you said, why would good guy Comey stoop to the tactics of the Hoover FBI? Somebody was pushing him, was he not fired soon after this designation was established?
Never intended for you to dig this deep, but it is like you and I have talked about, some sort of seemingly natural white animus toward African Americans, their rightful aspirations and Constitutional rights reaching into and obviously still a part of the FBI, the country's chief law enforcement agency, is obviously still present.
And this so called threat rises to the level of the actual violence from members of White Nationalists, Supremacists and Nazis? And like you said before, what possible reason would Trump have to downplay this source of violence, when it was rising before his very eyes?
I nothing personal against Comey, Trump is the focus of my ireI think he was fired before the report Cred. I must admit to a media-informed bias. I only know what the media has presented, and what little looking-around I have done, but I like the guy.
His personal interviews that I have seen project an honest guy. His actions regarding Pres. Trump reinforces that perception to me.
And lastly, a guy that says Lordy, lordy, I hope not . . . " in Congressional testimony can't be all bad. ;-)
GA
It would seem the FBI has some very twisted priorities. The situation in Yemen might be one reason they are moving Al Qaeda down the list:
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-inadvert … men-589384Credence, heard of this inanity years ago. It is so oxymoronic that the FBI are threatened by so-called Black extremists who are relatively harmless. These so-called Black extremists want to uplift the Black community educationally, culturally & socioeconomically. However, Caucasian extremists such as the Ku Klux Klan are far more dangerous than any so-called Black extremist groups. The Ku Klux Klan has caused more terrorism but the FBI refuse to acknowledge this. There is definitely a DOUBLE standard here. Hoover implemented the dangerousness of the so-called Black extremists while IGNORING Caucasian extremists.
I have heard of them too, only in passing. All this talk about separatism and a homeland?
Even the Black Panthers during the 1960's and 1970's were not as dangerous nor responsible for such dreadful body counts among their adversaries as these groups that the FBI designated as only "moderate" threats.
What I find interesting is the talk of creating a'homeland.' it's the second time I have heard it in two days _ associated with different minority groups.
The term originates (as far as I know) from apartheid South Africa created different homeland for the different tribes...As for the idea of creating a homeland, I certainly am not aware of any organized effort by (Blacks) in this country to pursue such an objective.
The existence of BIE and their associated characteristics are a complete fabrication by the FBI through its ultimate higher authority, "Donald J. Trump".Nope.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/homeland
South African and Palestinian. If African Americans are using it, it is not from them originally.
Etymology from 1660 - English.Nope.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/homeland
South African and Palestinian. If African Americans are using it, it is not from them originally.
Etymology from 1660 - English.
The word, in the context it is being used in the article, is the same as an Indian reservation. It is land set aside for one ethnic or tribe minority.
Just checked out the etymology. 1660 English term from 400 years ago originally.
Used by Palestinians and South Africans.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/homeland
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