A British view of Islam

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   Madame Xposted 14 years ago

   Said only the way a Brit could say it
   
   http://dotsub.com/view/84f5c72d-b0ba-40 … c40995e011

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      Rayalternatelyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      For those of you not from the UK, can I just assure you we're not all ill informed racists. I'm not joining the argument, I just felt it important to distinguish the bigotry from the nationality.

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         Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I wasn't criticizing him, but praising him. I have a great admiration for many from the UK, especially when they cut through all the multicultural PC crap.

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            Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            X,
            
            You go girl!

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            Harvey Stelmanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            X,
            
            I do not know why anyone would be offended by someone speaking the truth. When was the last Church or Synagogue built in Saudi land; did you say never?
            
            When the U.S. fought Iraq in the Gulf War; what happened at Christmas and Channukah? Our troops were only allowed to celebrate in tents, so they couldn't be seen.
            
            They sound very like equality started in Saudi land.
            
            America watch out; we really don't want to be like Europe.

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   mikelongposted 14 years ago

   If only this Brit could talk about his nation's role in the creation of Saudi Arabia, and the entire Mid-East Crisis.......
   
   Secondly, the interpretation of Islam found in Saudi Arabia is hardly the archetype for all............Why didn't this Brit pick Turkey to look at?
   
   
   Brits forget that it was their planes dropping mustard gas and fire bombing villages to the ground during the 1820's and 30's........not to mention what has gone on since.......
   
   Liberty?  Personal freedoms? 
   
   Quakers left Britain for a reason..........and while Britain tries to reform its image in  a world that has largely forgotten  about its Mid/Near East crimes they try to project their own lack of tolerance onto others.........
   
   too bad......

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      kephriraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Turkey is more of an excpetion that Saudi Arabia for one simple reason - for the last half a century or more Saudi Arabia has spent a great deal of its massive wealth and a great deal of effort promoting its wahabi brand of Islam around the world, and in most mulim countries has succeeded. They print textbooks and qu'rans with commentry and sell them at a loss, they sponsors religious schools in other countries, they sponsor individuals to travel to Saudi Arabia to study and then help set them up as Imams on their return to the country they came from.  Most of modern Islamic thought can be traced back to Saudi Arabian oil money.
      
      And what is that about planes dropping bombs in the 1820's? I know Britan was technologically advanced but planes and bombs and mustard gas?

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         cheaptrickposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Is'nt Wahhabi Islam the fanatical branch?
         Isn't Bin Laden a Saudi?
         Why are we bombing Afghanistan instead of Saudi Arabia?
         Is this another case of"Should invade Iran but Invade Iraq" instead.
         Why are we at war with Anyone?
         Who could conquer America militarily and there fore be stupid enough to start a war with Us?

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   Madame Xposted 14 years ago

   The guy in the video is talking about what's happening in the UK and Europe right now. And how badly they're all handling the situation. I agree with his assessment and appreciate his perspective. He's hit it dead on.

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   mikelongposted 14 years ago

   To call Islam the 'guardian of terrorism'...is not only false, but it demonstrates the willed-denial of "western" minds as to the destructive power of Western Christianity......
   
   Look at the aftermath of the Sykes-Picot Agreement (I have an article written about it)........and all the wonderful things that "non-terrorist" "Christians" were doing to their Muslim counterparts..........
   
   
   To call Saudi Arabia the 'guardians of Islam' is also ridiculous.......this man is highly misinformed.....
   
   If Muslims do not want to handle alcohol or sell birth control products why can they not voice their concerns?
   
   I remember a similar case not too many years ago here in the United States where a Christian Anglo-American pharmacist refused to sell birth control..in Virginia I believe, and this is not an isolated story......many Christian doctors refuse to prescibe patients with such things as well...
   
   
   Why do people have to project their own behaviors onto others...and then deny themselves?
   
   Because they are ignorant and biased......
   
   "Precious faith" remark?
   
   It is a mixture of humor and sadness to see "educated" and "civilized" people show their true backwardness.....especially when they think they are only proving otherwise......
   
   If brits think like this guy it proves that the hateful U.K. has not changed........

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   Mark Knowlesposted 14 years ago

   Much as I hate to agree with Madame X - we do actually have a problem here and are not dealing with it very well. We are tending to jump one way or the other. either legislating against certain Muslim practices or bending over backwards and changing teh law of the land to accommodate.
   
   All in all - as usual - religion serves it's purpose and divides them from us and keeps "us" occupied fighting amongst ourselves while the elite make off with all the power, money and control.
   
   Lets face it - the US and the UK are well and truly in bed with the Muslim elite - you should see how much money Citibank poured into the Middle East after the "Bailouts."
   
   And Pat is pretty anti Christian as well. You should see a few of his anti-christian videos before pointing a finger at his motives.
   
   I have been walked on my whole life by my government bending over to special interests - whether it is allowing tobacco companies to sell their product or changing the law to allow Sikhs to not wear motorcycle helmets.

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   mikelongposted 14 years ago

   I think this "problem" is a concoction to distract us from the true issue.......the ongoing crisis in the Middle/Near East that Britian is directly responsible for....
   
   
   How did Muslims come to live in Britain, and the rest of the "West"?
   
   http://www.globalpolicy.org/iraq/iraq-c … -iraq.html
   
   This is just a start........
   
   
   With this said, the Amish live a separate life from the remainder of Americans....following their own rules and keeping largely to themselves........in fact, many of their families tolerate illegal behaviors like drug abuse when they let their kids go out to "explore" the world....
   
   We like to have governmenet back off our beliefs.......until Muslims are involved...............how sad...
   
   The corporate media and Christian imagery of Islam focuses on the extreme aspects of the few who they themselves enabled to exist............and they profit from most that results, good or bad....
   
   If we are going to talk at all about Saudi Arabia let us remember that a great percentage, if not majority, of the population is foreign.....workers brought from all over the place to work for the few elites who are in bed with ours...thank you Cheney and Bush et al...
   
   We need to understand what we are truly dealing with before we can make decisions....

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   Mark Knowlesposted 14 years ago

   This is what religion and nationalism do.
   
   They are both BS designed to keep us at each other's throats. Last week is was the Pakistani corner shop owners, the week before that it was the Polish immigrants, now it is the Muslims.
   
   This is why religion disgusts me so much. Throughout our entire history - when nationalism was not enough - religion did the trick.
   
   God we are stupid.

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   kephriraposted 14 years ago

   Not sure what that link has to do with why there are mulism's living in Britain, or what that has to do with the topic Mike. Yes Britain did some bad things in the past, but that doesn't mean that a century later we don't have a right to an opinion. Although actually blaming the British is a simplification. The creation of Israel, which Britain played a leading role in but wasn't the only power responsible for (and which I assume is what you mean by blaming us for all the ills of the middle east) was done at a time when borders were being redrawn all over the world. People seem to think there was a palastine and that the British stole a bit of it to make Israel, but actually the nation of Palastine was created at the same time as the nation of Israel. And trying to do something to help millions of homless refugee's who had just gone through one of the most horrific episode's in the history of the world can hardly be portrayed as a malicious thing to do.
   
   Speaking as someone who lives in a mainly muslim area of Birmingham, there are real issues here which I experience day to day. America does not have such large muslim communities so perhaps these issues don't exist in America, but they do exist here and are not just a conncoction to distract people.

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   mikelongposted 14 years ago

   The past is not left in the past.........
   
   I understand that Britain was not alone....but when we are speaking of Saudi Arabia and British opinions on Islam I will focus on Britain...I'll save the French and Russians for another time...
   
   I understand that maps were being redrawn......but why not discuss who was drawing them, why, and how social/political/economic demographics drastically changed in a very short period of time......
   
   
   In a French example, take a look at Lebanon......a new creation grouping together peoples who do not traditionally live in such a mutually dependent state (nor did they have to) with a colonial Christian (Western Christian at that) elite...creating new inequalities and selectively parcelling out the spoils....
   
   This is the reality....
   
   "Nation" is a way of smoothing over the true fractal nature of society..............
   
   If one looks at the nature of the "help" provided to Holocaust surviving Jews (and the incoming other Jews who were not affected by the Nazi program) one will see an even greater travesty of human rights....which continues ongoingly in front of our eyes...a concentration camp right in front of our faces...and we don't know what it looks like, evidently...
   
   I find it, also, very curious how the Brits and their French and American minions were quick to jump on the Middle/Near East possessions of the Ottoman Empire while the Armenian people were forgotten....... The British ignore the Genocided Armenian people...who were promised to gain their homeland back......and then aid the Holocaust survivors.....
   
   If there was oil under Armenia......
   
   If valuable trade routes and more/bigger markets existed.....(but one would also need a nation first)
   
   Kephrira, what challenges do you face living amongst Muslims?
   
   How did these Muslims come to live in your community?  Where are they from?
   
   These are important questions to answer...

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      kephriraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      The majority of the muslims in Birmingham are from families who originally came here from Pakistan, although there are also many from north african countries, particularly somalia and others from Bangladesh and other places.
      As to my personal situation there are a few things. Firstly since the area becam majority muslimn the local swimming pool started to follow the Islamic practice of separating men and women. As most muslim women here don't work they made afternoons women only, mornings have always been for school children to have lessons, so men were given the evenings. At the time I was working evenings (although that isn't the case now) so I found myself effectively banned from my local swimming pool because, as it seemed to me, muslim men didn't trust me to be in the same building as their wives.
      Also muslim women are often not even allowed to speak to non-muslim men, and certainly aren't allowed to date them, but it seems to be acceptable for the men to do what they like, with the only rule being that they can't marry a non-muslim. That means that for every non muslim women there are 4 men who want to go out with her - 3 muslims and 1 non muslim. I think this is an injustice and there are many lonely men because of it, but admit that I don't know how much this is due to Islam itself and how much is cultural.
      Also I find that muslims almost always take the side of other muslims automatically in any situation where there is conflict between two people because of the strong sense of muslim brotherhood, and many people feel threatened and ganged up on because of this.
      These are some of the things.

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    pct52posted 14 years ago

    British was a colonizing empire. It gives rise to all kinds of nations, America was one. So, Saudi was another, but what about India, Parkistan. The list goes on!
    
    And what about Anti-Christ, who gives rise to that? Was it more important to identify which Nation is the real Anti-Christ early on?

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Kephira.....thanks for your response...
    
    To begin with all Muslims are not the same.....and do not share the same world-view....
    
    I tutor with a Persian family...I work one on one all alone with the wife, and there is no problem.....they live like everyone else.....
    
    So, where there are some Muslims who hold to certain ideas, many others do not....and do not want to....  If one is Catholic that does not mean that they want church law to take over their lives.....most I would argue want something else....
    
    While I understand the point you raised about dating.....I don't see what the complaint is.....
    
    Racially speaking, I have friends who cannot get a date because of their skin color...let alone their religion....and this is common (and America is not up in arms)....and I'm sure racism has not disappeared in Britain....
    
    Secondly, I remember when my sister was dating a guy from Iran, but he was Jewish....
    
    Now, his family did not say that he could not "date" her.....but they firmly let him know that there was never any possibility of anything beyond a temporary relationship...and even that was limited....
    
    He was a man....he could "date" whomever he wanted, but the women not part of his background and religion would not be welcomed into the family....  He would go to the clubs with his male buddies and do whatever he wanted....sleep with whomever he wanted...because he knew ultimately that none of these women, my sister included, mattered........they would never "count" for anything beyond his physical gratification...
    
    As for women withing that culture block (Persian Jews), they aren't allowed to date anyone not of their own group as well.....no dating this aforementioned guy's sister for me...even if I wanted to..
    
    In my own Christian religion (which I have long ago gone away from) one could not marry an outsider.....such a person would have to renounce their former faith and adopt our own......(which is not something I agree with)...
    
    In my church we were not able to "date" until we became "adults".....relationships were for marriage only, and were closely watched and scrutinized....  We ended up having to live our lives secretly, away from the prying eyes of family/church members.....
    
    I know many Seventh Day Adventists who are the same way....they don't even allow dating....
    
    What would happen if I lived in a society dominated by them?
    
    So, to point at Muslims and single them out doesn't mean that they are doing anything wrong or different from their Christian or Jewish counterparts from around the world....
    
    As for Muslims taking the side of other Muslims, I see it all the time with Christians, Americans, and many others.....in the Masonic Order, if one Mason knows that another did a crime he cannot share that information, and must always back their fellow Masons....
    
    Who is complaining about them?
    
    
    On another note, how many Muslim Masons are out there.....why isn't the Masonic Order worried about having them within their numbers?
    
    
    
    The community I live in has changed....but that is the nature of population demographics......  While I don't agree that public services should be made to limit the rights of others....meaning that there should be ample time provided for non-Muslims to use the public pool....I do believe that the beliefs of others, as long as they are not causing harm, should be respected....

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       kephriraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I do understand that there is diversity amongst the muslim cultures of the world, and wouldn't suggest otherwise. I am talking about the muslims who are living here in Britain and in Birmingham, who do seem to have largely embraced a fairly uniform type of Islam, probably inspired by the Saudi Arabians who fund many of the mosques. There are not a great many persian muslims here, so perhaps it is not entirely the kind of Islam that you are familiar with. It is certainly more akin to the Islam of the Iranian government than that of the people of Iran who have taken to the street recently.
       
       But I don't see how saying that injustice also exists in other places is a justification for it happening in my home town. All the other examples you state don't exist here in the place I live, and contrary to what you seem to think of me, I would be against them just as much if they did, and am against them happening in the places where they do happen. The injustice which you don't see as a problem is a problem because it puts non muslim men in a disadvantaged situation. If both groups have the same attitude and same rules, as in your example, then it obviously isn't a problem. But if one group is open and the other closed then it creates injustice.
       
       I accept your point that perhaps my experiences are partly due to living as an ethnic minority and would exist for any person in any place who is in this situation. But I do find that muslims have more of a tendency to look out for other muslims. I see it in the political opinions of the people around me too - they always take the side of muslim countries and uttelry fail (or refuse)  to see the other side of the argument. I live in an area which elects politicians which I feel are often prejudiced in favour of muslim countries in world affairs.

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       " I have friends who cannot get a date because of their skin color..."
       
       That is a complete load

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    Sufidreamerposted 14 years ago

    If you had asked 10 years ago, Mike, I would have stated that most British people did not have such extremist views. There were racists, but no more than in any society.
    
    Sadly, the hype whipped up around Islam in the last decade has hit home - it is pushing people to extremes. This polarisation causes people to focus upon the differences rather than the similarites. Sadly, I see this polarisation in many societies - Democrat/Republican, Science/Religion, Left/Right. Fear sells, ultimately.
    
    Like you, I have many Muslim friends and I am just finishing off a long paper about Women's Rights in the Gulf States - they are a lot further ahead on that score than the media allows us to see. Still work to be done, of course.
    
    I just don't want you to think that all Brits think like that - most are moderate. It is a topic that needs discussion and dialogue, but it soon becomes diverted by rhetoric and half-truths.
    
    If you get a chance, The Doha Debates on the BBC World News are often interesting.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Sufidreamer, I know that not all Brits are the same....and I am sorry if that was expressed....
    
    The extremes are coming out of the woodwork more and more, and it concerns me that moderates can be easily skewed based off the incensed, misguided passions of others...
    
    
    When I look at atrocity, like the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust I see a few extremists supported by the collective weakness of the moderates.....
    
    I'll check out the Doha Debates...
    
    Take care of yourself...

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       Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       'Tis true.
       
       I had a female relative over to stay last year, and she was always very liberal and moderate. During a few conversations, she basically blamed the Polish (legal) immigrants for every ailment in the UK, from unemployment to the financial crisis. The implication was that they should go back to their own country.
       
       It wasn't until I pointed out that I am actually an immigrant in another country that she eased off.
       
       The media in the UK is going downhill - yellow journalism abounds and fuels hate, to sell copies.
       
       Kephrira - I can see both sides of that. I can certainly understand that it can be physically and mentally intimidating (I lived in Ireland and Scotland and, whilst rare, I had the odd person take physical offence at my nationality.)
       
       On the other hand, I can see why the Muslims tend to stick together - much like many of the British, German or Dutch Expats over here.
       
       It is certainly a tough one - multiculturalism needs to be discussed, but it is difficult when the viewpoints drift to either end of the spectrum

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          kephriraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I have lived as an expat myself in Holland and Spain. I'm not just talking about choosing to socialize together as is the case with many expat communities. I'm talking about active discrimination against non muslims based on the concept of Islamic brotherhood. And that was only one of my points.
          Also I resent your conflation with the kind of points I have been making, and that others have made, with racism. Islam is not a race, it is a religion. Racism is wrong because race is not a relevent thing to judge people on - because it doesn't make you behave in a particular way or whatever, so the differences are superficial. This is not the case with religion, which does deeply affect a persons personality, opinions and actions. You imply that Britain has become a more racist country, which I do not think is the case. It is a real problem that you cannot discuss issues of religion, or in many cases issues of immigration, without people blindly accusing you of racism.

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             Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I never accused you of racism, so I am not sure where you are coming from - you seem to be looking for a fight where there is none. Maybe it is the limitations within the written word, but I do not 'blindly imply' that people are racist for talking about such topics.
             
             That is why I was careful to use 'multiculturalism,' to make clear that it was a cultural, rather than racial statement. I am a supporter of dialogue about it, because multiculturalism clearly has not worked in many areas (I know Blackburn and Burnley well). I just don't like the extreme rhetoric, and that cuts both ways.
             
             I was trying to support your viewpoint, but perhaps I did not put it across clearly.
             
             I can only go by the people I know, but nationality does seem to be becoming an issue in parts of the UK. However, that particular point was in a separate conversation with Mike and Mark Knowles, about the Polish immigration and drift towards extremes.In fact, if you scroll up to my first post, I stated that I believe most British people to be naturally moderate.
             
             Maybe it is different in your neck of the woods but, in the North West, there is a rising anti-immigration sentiment - my own family and friends are drifting that way. Were the BNP councillors in Burnley a figment of my imagination?

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                kephriraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                I know you didn't accuse me personally of racism, but you did suggest that Britain was becoming more racist, and you have just made the conflation that I was refering to again. Anti-immigration sentiment is not racism, it is just anti-immigration sentiment. It is perfectly possible to recognize problems caused by immigration without being racist. What I meant by 'blindly accusing people of racism' is this automatic conflation of immigration and issues of culture and religion with racism, without stopping to think about whether it is actually racism or not.

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                   Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Apologies - I misunderstood.
                   
                   I am all for discussing immigration - we have an even bigger problem with it in Greece. My point was more aimed at the media blowing the picture out of proportion, making things black and white - my relative was reciting what she had read in the latest headlines of the Daily Mail. That is what I am trying to put across (not very successfully). Equally, I would not call her racist - she is concerned about the economic situation and lack of work, like everybody else.
                   
                   Rhetoric from the Daily Mail at one extreme, those who believe that discussing anti-immigration measures are racist lie at the other. My belief is that people are migrating to either extreme. Not all, or even most, but the debate seems to be polarising. I am not saying that Britain is becoming more racist, but that I believe it is becoming more polarised, like many other countries. Greece certainly is
                   
                   Personally, as with most things, I lie somewhere in the middle ground.

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                      kephriraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Maybe I was being a little defensive and replied to what you seemed to me to be implying as much as what you were actually saying. Some media can be rather less than objective, though I am not sure that is any more the case now than it ever was.

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                         Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         hehe - perhaps we both just proved the point! - Would we have reacted like that 10 years ago? Everyone is walking on eggshells.
                         
                         Only one man's opinion, but I do believe that some of the media have become more sensationalist - Rupert Murdoch's name seems to crop up a lot. He is not my favourite person.
                         
                         On the other hand, some of the drift towards extremes has been fuelled by Political Correctness - I have never been a fan. It was something that should have stayed within academia, rather than seeping out into every aspect of life.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Britain, as the United States, France and Denmark have become increasingly nativist....
    
    
    Spain is a particular location that, in my opinion, cannot be compared to Britain or Holland.....
    
    A main center of Islam was based in Spain...and the Reconquista was not truly completed.....a lot of resentments still remain within the region.....Yet, Islam, as Christianity, is so diverse amongst its many followers.. they don't all think or believe alike...and one will not always back the other...
    
    In terms of societies of brotherhoods, whether Christian, Muslim, Mason, or otherwise, biases exist and elitism can become an issue... This is the problem with those who use Christianity and Islam alike to reaffirm patriarchy.......
    
    The separation of church and state should be a universal in all governments.....and accomodations should only be made when civil liberties are at stake....
    
    Instead of speaking against Muslims, engagement with them as individuals both in the mosque, the home, and in the halls of government should be ongoing... I believe that issues of social intersection can be resolved without one side deriding or putting down the other...
    
    I'm not implying that this is what you are doing Kephrira....but it is definitely what people in my own community are doing....and it shouldn't be so...
    
    I also am curous about how this particular population has lived in Birmingham......
    
    One issue that is really hard for me to resolve is this....
    
    
    Let us say that I am originally from Mexico...and I have been fortunate enough to gain education past high school, and I have learned about the aggressions that the United States has wrought within my nation and society....let me say that I am from Matamoros, per se, or from Sonora...and stories about men like William Walker and mass death under American artillery were part of my family story........and I know about the first and second Bracero Programs and the money owed by the U.S. government that was held back until my grandfather was on his deathbed.....and I know that many Americans will look down, or at least a little harder at me because of my name, or my complexion, or perhaps because of my Spanish-accented English...
    
    If I came to the United States, what would I think?  How open would I be?
    
    Not every Muslim immigrant, from whereever they may come, doesn't have such a mindset, I am sure, as every Mexican immigrant does not know necessarily about the legacy of U.S.-Mexican relations....
    
    But, some do........
    
    This intersocietal mingling is not a new thing...........
    
    In terms of race............this social construction was invented by a small clustering of European people......spawned from Mr. Darwin's theories on evolution........
    
    Race has been projected onto others since.......
    
    But, then again, many from England, if I am correct, have to some degree separated themselves from the "darker" Spanish and Italians (long before race), and had to legitimize the enslavement of Africans (religion).......and Ango-America has followed proudly in their forefather's footsteps.... (not all English, not all Americans, but the elites who profit from the division and their mindless minions and other cronies who benefit from the stupidity...)
    
    
    I look to the skinhead movement, which began in England in response to the increasing elite status of the materialist Mod movement........black and white, Jamacan and English, hard-mod turned skinhead and rude boy strode arm and arm, am I not right?
    
    And then something happened...something separated black and white...not completely....but from Britain to the United States....skinhead changed.....and the white supremacist neo-nazi emerged to take over the identity....now skinhead is synonymous with racism.......which is nonsense...
    
    All Britains are not racist, but many construct and profit from it, and many others don't pay attention to it, and many even latently play along with it......

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    "Anti-immigrant" and "racism" go very close together.....xenophopia is not a beneficial thing..
    
    Sufi-I don't know what the situation is where you are, but here in California, anti-immigrant activists have shown that "national concern" comes from another root...
    
    Here in California, and in the U.S. as a whole, anti-immigrant sentiment is setting in, which means that "Mexicans" are again being targeted as a national blight, as opposed to a national pillar...
    
    
    The woes we are facing here are tied to the "race to the bottom"....

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       pct52posted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I am not against any immigrants as such, but what about:
       
       Mexican drug gangs killing each other & innocent folks, putting up graffiti everywhere that should not be. Then there is a big medical care bill they incur paid by the State government. Beyond, residences & citizens can't even find survival jobs because they only hire Mexican labor. That is the down side of the deal.
       
       Everything has more than one side, like there are two sides to every coin. People should be more open minded, consider both sides, and try to find a middle of the road solution instead of fighting from both extremes.

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       Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Sure - they can be close, but not always.
       
       Kephrira's well made point is that, in the UK, many automatically assume that questioning anti-immigration=racism.
       
       In some cases it is - there are people who attack somebody because they are of a different colour and culture.
       
       In others it is genuine concerns about overcrowding, resources and the economics.
       
       We are having a real problem in Greece - well over 1 million illegal immigrants in a small country with limited economy and resources. At the moment, it is discussion. I fear that, with the poor state of the economy, it might spill into hatred.
       
       The race to the bottom is well underway

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          kephriraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          thankyou sufidreamer. It is a different issue in Europe to the Mexican in America. America still has border controls with Mexico. There are no border controls within the european union. I don't know the situation in Greece but in the UK when eastern european countries joined the union there was a massive flood of immigrants over a short period of time which did cause econmic problems.

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             Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             No worries
             
             In Greece, there is no problem with internal EU immigrants (well, I am going to say that, as one!). Albanians, whilst not EU members, are also here in numbers, but nobody cares - they are welcome.
             
             The problem is with EU law: According to this, if an immigrant from outside the EU is picked up in the UK, Germany, Holland, or wherever, they can send them back to the country where they first entered. In many cases this is Greece. Greece is supposed to be able to send them back to Turkey, but Turkey won't take them back.
             
             As a result of this impasse, there is over 1 million migrants in Greece - it is a tiny country and this large number is placing a strain on resources.
             
             A very tough situation - I have never begrudged anybody seeking to better their life, as that is what I am doing and, by accident of birth, for me it is legal. However, it is causing economic, social and political problems.
             
             I certainly have no answers

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       NOT "anit-immigrant," but rather (and very importantly) "anti illegal immigrant."
       
       Don't try to confuse the two

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    I begin here by not stereotyping the Mexican immigrants picking in the stawberry fields, on construction sites, cleaning homes, and slaughtering animals for our consumption....
    
    As for graffitti...this is hardly a "Mexican" thing.....I have done it, as have a wide variety of others....this is a sign of something else...whether it is youth looking to find identity and expressing themselves (all graffitti is not the same by the way)..or those who have found themselves down another path, based on a wide variety of stimuli....
    
    For all the Mexican, Salvadorian, Honduran and Guatamalan immigrants (amongst others who are commonly misclassified into one "Mexican" group), only a few participate in the illegal activities you mention....
    
    And, I counter that the guns arming the drug cartels are coming from Americans...who are illegally smuggling them...the drugs are brought here simply because Americans like them....and past anti-Mexican politicking made marijuana illegal....which was and is a plant that a huge percent of the American population consume.....
    
    The American exportation of cheap corn into Mexican markets and the increased American draw of young men and women northward, to the maquilas of Juarez and Nogales, and on into the U.S. to do our work...
    
    The drive for Mexican labor...or cheap labor, whether debtors, slaves, Chinese "coolies" or Mexicans (after the Gentleman's Agreement) is part of American national legacy.....as is the use of the strikebreaker....we use one labor pool to undermine another...and we like "Mexicans" because, though they may come from a thousand miles south of the border, we can dump them right on the other side and they are "home"...some how this makes sense...
    
    We have issues, but American companies are running to cheap labor...the "race to the bottom".....as long as we blame the people at the bottom and not those who created the whole system we will continue down our path....and not only will racism become more and more openly expressed (as in Santa Clarita by a councilman there recently)...........but our society will greatly suffer...

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       sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Have you ever backed a winner? Do you always atart at the bottom and try and rationalize your way up? If you're an American act like one and cut the PC crap.

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          Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Very well said!

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    kephriraposted 14 years ago

    Mike, the 'openess' thing was not a general comment, but a specific point I was making about mulsim men in Birmingham being able to date non muslim women, but muslim women not being allowed to date non muslim men. And if I have to say it again - I know that not all mulism are the same, but that is the attitude that the majority of muslims here seem to take. It is them I am commenting on, not any other type of Islam which may be different. Just because there are different types of Islam out there, doesn't invalidate my comments on the form that is prevalent here.
    
    RE your comment on skinheads - there have been racist groups and people in all countries, so I don't see what the fact that they existed in Britain in the 1970s has to do with anything.
    
    And I absolutely refute that "Anti-immigrant" and "racism" go very close together. Although racist people would naturally be anti immigration that does not mean in any way that taking an anti-immigration stance is in any way racist itself. In fact I would go further than this. I don't like Islam. I am anti-islam. That is very different from not liking Arabs, or not liking Africans. I would defend to the death my right to dislike religions, philosophies and so on. If it interests you, I don't like Christianity very much either, but very few people in England take it seriously in the way people in other countries do, so its not much of an issue. If you said you believed that the alien being zog created the world and was coming back to take you away I would tell you that your a nutter. I don't see any difference between that and a religion. I am firmly of the opinion that all people are equal - but that does not mean that all cultures are equal, or that I should be forced to have no opinion on the replacement of my own cultural heritage with a foreign culture which is hostile and unjust towards me. Also there has been problem here with european immigration (from white people I may add, but people still seem to manage to claim its racist if you don't like it!) because many, many people came to work for a few years to save money. Wages for many professions just hit the floor, along with conditions. This is because the immigrants weren't here to build a life. They were happy to work very long hours, live with 3 to a rented room, and then go home a few years later with enough cash to set them up for life in their own eastern european country. But why should a British worker who has to build a life here and raise a family have to try to compete with that person? They can't compete, so they end up with no work.

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    pct52posted 14 years ago

    The only thing driving cheap labor is more profit margin for the boss on top, which demands extreme executive pay. That being the driving force, has produced a lot of problems:
    
    . cheap labor in farms, but mechanization should be developed instead. After all, the industrialized states won the civil war, not the slave states. These labors are not cheap to the government, in terms of tax revenue lost wages, un-employment pay, welfare cost, and health care cost for everyone, including the cheap labors themselves. All that cost becomes the government's responsibilty, instead of those businesses.
    
    . off-shore & on-shore labor agreements. That only goes well if parties involved are honest business, but when swindle, fraud, and lies are included, it is a hell of arrangments. It leads to bankruptcies, delay in productions, confusions in business processes. There are many companies that have just this experience now. Bankruptcies lead to loss of working capital, thus recession that has not been witness since world wars.
    
    .high un-employment, thus less income tax revenue, welfare cost, all lead to deficit spending, and you know about the trillion dollar deficit we witness now.
    
    In the meantime, businesses are armed with lobbies, that make sure elected officiers will not do it any other ways so that they can archieve this high profit margin. In the end, it is a game of chickens, people are running out of money, no market for products by those businesses. They are just waiitng to see who turn into chickens, and yield to the other side to avoid another crash/recession.

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    jiberishposted 14 years ago

    Madam X, I took the time to watch the whole video, and I think it should be a study guide for anyone who thinks we should be more like those in Europe.  Thanks for sharing, I'm sure we're not far behind in our pandering to the Muslims.

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       Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Thanks jib. As usual you see the crux of the matter. This has nothing to do with religion, but with a group of people who think it's their way or no way. That's not the definition of a religion but of mad men. The guy in the video isn't racist, bigoted, extremist, ignorant or stupid. He's looking square at a very big problem that is threatening the very beautiful cultures of Europe, if they don't wake up and defend their way of life. I guess the PC crowd would rather bend over and grease up rather than grow some.

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          ForkArtJunkieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I don't really know anyone here, but wanted to pop in. Madame X you are spot on with that post. It's fair game to fight political Islam, and we must. The multicultural among us tend to use the cliche frequently that we must respect all religions, and we must respect all cultures, and so forth. I think not.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Well, I guess it just comes down to who's religion is "respectable"?
    
    In that case, as someone with no religion, should I disrespect everyone who does?  Superstitious people? 
    
    I think not....people are entitled to their beliefs....
    
    Imperialism of the soul is no different than that of economics and politics....
    
    Resources are decreasing....in Los Angeles County alone we have around 10 million people....and then one has to add Orange County, Ventura, San Diego, and numerous places in between with their millions...feeding water along crumbling acqueducts from sources that are rapidly disappearing...with no money to make repairs to infrastructure or to build the desalinization plants needed to bring in enough fresh water to keep this region going....
    
    But as others around me are rallying (including my own family members) to "deport the Mexicans" I realize what Pandora's Box is being played with, at least here......and I see alternatives...  But too many here are busy just trying to make money and keep their heads above water..

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       Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       We're not talking about "who's religion is "respectable"?"
       
       We're talking about people who have no religion at all, but hide behind the claim of "belief" or "culture" or "race" to inflict their 'my way or no way' crap on those around them.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    "respectable" was used by someone in this forum, I just lifted the word...
    
    
    
    " I have friends who cannot get a date because of their skin color..."
    
    "That is a complete load"
    
    
    Sab, you don't know anything....why don't you come out here, I can introduce you....
    
    
    My first girlfriend was of Japanese descent....her father and mother were born in Hawaii, where they worked in the sugar cane fields....
    
    Now, when she brought me to her home I received a warm welcome and all went well, until I enlisted in the Marines...
    
    But, if she had brought an African-American home, I know what her family's reaction would have been....
    
    Mexican-Americans also can tend to have some racial issues.....the friend that I am speaking of was "talking" to this one particular female for over 6 years....and she would never let him come over to her house, and she would go out with him at night...but not during the day....
    
    And, as I stated before briefly, she eventually told him (just recently, which really hurt him) that her parents would not let her date a black man.......it is as sinple as that....You don't have to believe me Sab.....But come out my way and I will introduce you both.....
    
    My last significant other (before my current girl friend) was also of Mexican descent......and, as well, she would not bring a black man home....it is the unwritten rule..something that you just don't do at her home....  Her sister used to joke about the "niggers"....being that blatant...until I put a stop to it by letting her know how ridiculous that is.......and the word-play nonsense stopped.....as for the avoidance of black men as dates....that is still firmly in place......
    
    My current relationship has connotations of that as well....I know that if I was black her parents would look at me differently.....I've seen it too many times to think otherwise.....
    
    
    But, I have seen racism all over the place....
    
    at my former community college, where both I and my aforementioned friend attended....there were some racial tensions on campus between African Americans and Mexican-Americans...changing demographics can cause stress, as we know...
    
    We had both been invited to come to the campus and stay over night with a group of protesting students who were pushing for more Mexican descended faculty and staff, since it is their block of people who make up the majority of the campus student population....
    
    Myself, I don't believe that jobs should be taken away and given to someone else simply because demographics have changed.....unless a blatant pattern of discrimination has been shown....which in this case, it hadn't...
    
    Anyways, my friend is also a musician, and he had put together a song to perform at that campus meeting......we both arrived together, and as I wrote about what was occurring, he was singing.....
    
    
    
    Though we were invited to the campus and we were both campus employees and students, I watched in disbelief as 4 campus police officers (adjunct of the LA County Sheriffs office) came, guns drawn, and surrounded my friend from behind (we all know each other on campus...even the school police...which is why I was in such disbelief to what I was seeing)...and as three officers surrounded him another was off to the side, ready to shoot....
    
    They "escorted" him off campus....4 armed police officers ensuring my friend left.......and they didn't even look at me....I was about 8 feet away from him at the time.......
    
    An hour later one officer (again, we know each other) walked up to me and politely asked me to leave the campus because it was after curfew.....
    
    I thanked him for being so courteous and polite to me, but reprimended him for the actions of his other officers towards my friend.......
    
    We ended up making a song about it, which was widely distributed online and through the campus....
    
    The police claimed that they were using "standard procedure".....but they could not explain why I, a "white" man was untouched and treated well and a "black" man, my friend, was surrounded by officers and taken off campus at gunpoint.....and we were both in violation of the same thing...being on campus after curfew......but we also were both invited....
    
    
    So, race may be on my mind alot, but that is because I'm seeing it used all around me....as some are abused and others perpetuate the abuse.....
    
    In fact, justfloz.com 
    
    This is him, check him out...

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "Sab, you don't know anything...."
       
       
       Of course, no one knows anything but you...
       
       
       You provided anectdotes, not evidence, and you did not describe anyone who "could not get a date because of their race."
       
       
       Intermarriage among Asians, Latinos, and African Americans (as well as Whites) is hardly uncommon, and growing rapidly in the US. Fully 1/4 of all US born Latinos marry outside their ethnic group. In fact, the ethnic group most resistant to intermarriage as a group is African Americans, not the other way around. Your 'girlfriend's' parents coming over to work the sugar cane fields sounds very fishy to me. I think you read something in a book and misapplied it chronologically (since that was common in the late 1800s), but that's just a hunch.
       
       
       Get off the college campus for a while and get some fresh air

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Sab, to those who's purpose in life seems to be to contradict as opposed to actually sharing, nothing is ever proven and everything remains suspect.....
    
    It is not that everyone knows nothing....my comment was directed to you personally...
    
    At least my page speaks to who I am.....I've been looking at your profile and am still lost...
    
    You may "suspect" whatever you wish....
    
    As for intermarriage....among some groups more than others...yes, things have changed....
    
    I applaud it...
    
    While much has changed, however, much more has not...
    
    What did Bush say on his last day of office regarding race in the United States...
    
    "You just can't change peoples' hearts.."
    
    classic
    
    Japanese immigrants working in the sugar cane fields did not end in the late 1800's.....more may have stopped coming, but the immigrants already arrived continued on, and their children followed in their footsteps...  I did not say her father immigrated from Japan....he was born in Hawaii...
    
    You may live vicariously through wikipedia, but, believe it or not, there are people with actual life experience...
    
    Get off the college campus?
    
    I left the Marine Corps for the college....and I've seen quite a few places.....and I've seen more since...
    
    Read more closely......

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "As for intermarriage....among some groups more than others..."
       
       Yeah, that's what I said.
       
       "believe it or not, there are people with actual life experience..."
       
       Yes, with a lot more than you. But don't worry, you'll get older.
       
       
       "Japanese immigrants working in the sugar cane fields did not end in the late 1800's....."
       
       I didn't say it did. What was that about reading more closely?

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    "My first girlfriend was of Japanese descent....her father and mother were born in Hawaii, where they worked in the sugar cane fields...."<-------my words
    
    
    
    "Your 'girlfriend's' parents coming over to work the sugar cane fields sounds very fishy to me. I think you read something in a book and misapplied it chronologically (since that was common in the late 1800s)"<-----Sab Oh's response
    
    
    "Japanese immigrants working in the sugar cane fields did not end in the late 1800's.....more may have stopped coming, but the immigrants already arrived continued on, and their children followed in their footsteps...  I did not say her father immigrated from Japan....he was born in Hawaii..."<------my response
    
    
    "I didn't say it did. What was that about reading more closely?"<---Sab Oh's response
    
    
    
    Sab, you show yourself more and more beyond your shady profile.....
    
    Your contrarian ways are manifest for all to see...
    
    
    Keep playing stupid-games.....
    
    If your words mark your experience, they don't say much...

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       You seem a little wrapped up in the whole 'experience' thing. You don't have to try and overcompensate just because you are young. I've said before that you are entitled to your opinions anyway.
       
       
       
       And the bit about the sugar cane fields still smells fishy to me. I can't know, of course, just a hunch.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    "Fishy"....if I didn't know you to be a better person (which I don't) I would wonder why you would choose such a word...and choose to repeat it over again when referring to this specific sitation.....
    
    Age and wisdom can be mutually exclusive Sab...just as the opposite can be true for "youth"......whatever that means....
    
    "Youth" is a word I use towards the middle schoolers I educate, and even then the word doesn't always apply.....
    
    Experience is how I have primarily come to my understanding in life....education helped me put names and refined concepts behind things I had already, to some extent, come to realize....
    
    "wrapped up"....no.....  your comments towards me, both here and on my actual articles demonstrate a different perception of that word....

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       ""Fishy"....if I didn't know you to be a better person (which I don't) I would wonder why you would choose such a word...and choose to repeat it over again when referring to this specific sitation....."
       
       
       Come again? What did your professor tell you to think this time?

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "Experience is how I have primarily come to my understanding in life...."
       
       
       That's great. Just think how much your understanding may develop as you gain more experience over time.

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