Grace or Law

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   Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

   This issue has arisen often in the HubWorld R&B forum deluge.
   Recently, I had the pleasure of being uplifted and berated by a few, which I thank the plural.
   
   The issue is this: Law (including piecemeal name games, justification of goodness, works of law versus the stasis of Grace.
   Yes, some know my argument on the subject of grace v consciousness, but this matter is direct: do we need Mosaic Law to fulfill our purpose of grace, that is salvation fulfilled in us.
   
   To make this case for discussion, not debate, I give you this:
   The meeting at Jerusalem.
   Paul/Barnabas return from Antioch and end up in a debate with Hebrew-born believers. Over law & circumcision:
   
   book of acts 15, paragraph 2 [Amplified]:
   
   When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were heartily welcomed by the church, apostles, elders and they told them all that Elohim had accomplished through them. But some who believed [who acknowledged Y`shua as their Savior and devoted themselves to Him] belonged to the sect of the Pharisees, and they rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise [the Gentile converts] and to charge them to obey the Law of Moses [and be cut of the flesh, circumcised]." The apostles and the elders were assembled together to look into and consider this matter. And after there had been a long debate, Peter got up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that quite a while ago Elohim made a choice or selection from among you, that by my own mouth the Gentiles should hear the message of the Gospel and believe (place their confidence in it). And God, Who is acquainted with and understands the heart fully, bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit -as He also did to us; And He made no difference between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test Elohim by putting a yoke on the necks of the disciples, such as neither our forefathers nor we, ourselves were able to endure? But we believe that we are saved through the grace (mercy) of the Lord, just as they are.

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      Danny R Handposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Romans gives a foundation that none of us can uphold the law. Galations tells us the purpose of the law. When we can't uphold the law, we see our need for Christ. As the Bible states, the law was given 430 years after the promise of grace. So the law is our teacher, to bring us to Christ.

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         Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         brilliant point Danny.
         one hugely overlooked by practically all Hebrews & believers!
         this is part of my foundation for this discussion. Before Mosaic instruction/doctrine, was grace.
         
         when I presented this position, exampled by Enoch (Noah's great grand father), Elijah it was argued that we 'need' the law still. Which to me completely negates the entire point of Y`shua's work. The law and prophets, judges, kings only kept people 'on hold' until the promise was fulfilled. Afterward, the law was dismissed to make room for Grace to abound.
         
         Another point is S/Paul's explanation of law/sin more v. grace/more grace. Which raises many questions and possibilities regarding much of the events of the world & churches.

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            Danny R Handposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            WE DO NEED THE LAW. tHE LAW IS GODS WAY OF CONVICTING US. THATS HOW WE KNOW ONE: WERE WRONG AND TWO: WE NEED CHRIST. THE LAW CONVICTS PEOPLE MORE THAN ANY OTHER THING.

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               Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I agree.
               The "old" Law and the law of grace go hand in hand.   One serves the literal purpose and one serves the Spiritual.

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            SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            The law of grace has always been. In the Garden of Eden there was a tree of life. It wasn't mentioned until after Adam ate the fruit.

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               Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Indeed, SD. Therefore Grace is above the law -as is the mercy seat above the tabernacle which houses the law, the staff and manna -the ark of covenant. Above it, where angels bow their heads in awe to serve the righteousness of Grace, WITHOUT the law. For where there is law, there is knowledge of sin and its effect, death. But where there is grace, life abounds abundantly.

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   SirDentposted 14 years ago

   The Law proves everyone guilty. No one can actually keep the whole law at all times. Grace is given to all who wil accept it. It is a gift without cost to us, but it cost God a lot.
   
   We cannot force anyone to go by the law. We shouldn't even try. Let grace work in our lives and theirs.
   
   The lost are still under tha law, but not the law of Moses in my opinion. They are under the laws of God. Many laws that Moses wrote were due to the hardness if men's hearts.
   
   I am sure there is much more about this than I know.

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   Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

   I agree. Many laws were imposed for social pecking order, rather than a social totality. Influences and politics of people tend to lean leaders to extremes. Case in point: men in their 30-40-50s being required circumcision to 'prove' loyalty to the church/the faith, much like knowledge of the scripts today is required for many to claim loyalty to a sect or department.
   
   Another example I was going to use was US laws. How a simple document has become a system so over burdened that not a single student of those laws can learn them or live by them. Even stranger is those laws are now based on 'case studies' and portions used/dismissed at the discretion of the elite leaders.
   
   Hence, why I agree with Peters statement to supersede even the basic elements of the law by action of grace.

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   kessposted 14 years ago

   Many are those who can expound the virtues of Grace over law, but when you examine their doctrine, it is revealed that their "grace" is merely the same law disguised.
   
   They achieve this by extending the law to include a doctrine of their Christ.
   
   This they do to attract the many and justify themselves before men, and forsaking the justification by grace through faith (knowledge of truth). 
   
   How hard it is for the children to forsake their father's doctrine.

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   Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

   So then , why this: ALL things have passed away, behold, I make all things new? Should we remain conscious of law -which is sin knowledge or of grace, abundant righteousness?
   We should be conscious of grace -before the law and after its completion, yes?. All things defines all: physical, mental and spiritual : which is the risen One. The second Adam.
   
   else the work of the cross was for nothing but return to the law, yet adding to it a prophecy of grace? I don't see how that is possible.

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   Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago

   The Bible says all Scripture is good.
   
   An illustration would be the subject of circumcision that was mentioned before in this thread.
   It's STILL good for a man to be circumcised simply for the sake of easier personal cleanliness, even though the law of grace doesn't require it.

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      Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Yet even circumcised of flesh, one is still then condemned under the law. So where is liberty and freedom in Grace, if we are still bound to law?

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         SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Circumsize the foreskin of your heart.

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            Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Amen.

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            Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Yet still condemned by law, with or without circumcision!
            So then if law is relevant, there is no grace and no salvation.
            For Grace is BEFORE law AND the circumcision. To apply law or any of its parts defeats the purpose of grace.

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               SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I think circumsizing the foreskin of the heart is done so it can feel God.
               
               Anyway, Tit 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

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   Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

   Has the power of Truth given way to sensation?
   Are we now proselytes, law abiding hedonists -seeking any wind of emotion or favor that comes our way to satisfy our thirst for righteousness.
   
   I cannot testify to this, it does not add up.
   Since we agree grace is PREDESTINED before LAW and proved that law is unable and after found PERFECTING can anyone still partake of the law and bread bread in the kingdom of heaven? I think not.
   
   Even Peter -who was kosher by all means, ate with the circumcised, yet battled against them in the forums of Jerusalem while in the company of the believers.

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      SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I think Peter's battles may have stemmed from traditional methods of the Jewish people. He was a Jew afterall and everything he had learned up to that point was still in him.

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         Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Unfortunately no. This was a huge issue with him. S/Paul even rebuked him for eating kosher, yet grumbling about the Jews when around believers. He was trying to live between law and grace.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      We must retain emotion, James.
      Not overly, but in general.
      God is a God of emotion!
      He is Jealous.  He wept.  He desires our Love. He feels sadness.  He feels joy.
      He is Spirit, but yes He still feels emotion.

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         Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         that does not answer the question, only adds further stigmata to an already crucified and risen Proof of Grace.

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   goldenpathposted 14 years ago

   Yes, the Law of Moses is imperative.  The Atonement of Jesus Christ fulfilled major portions of that law.  There are parts of the Law yet to be fulfilled.
   
   Personally, I would be leary in all the facets of the Law as written.  There are parts of the practice involving the "traditions of the elders."  These practices are customary implementations by various men throughout the generations.  These are not part of the original law.  So in everyone's study of the Law of Moses, study carefully, and weigh it generously against the grain of salt.

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   Danny R Handposted 14 years ago

   We recieve grace through Christ, those who REJECT Christ are not under that grace. Christ made payment for sin, but those who deny that payment will still be judged BY the law. So the law still and always will have it's place. Also, this is only one facet of the laws purpose. There are others.

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    aka-djposted 14 years ago

    Its important that we have both.
    If we did not have law, we would not fully comprehend grace.
    It provides us with the (true) alternative.
    Law >> sin >> judgment >> condemnation
    grace >> paid in full >> life and liberty

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    kessposted 14 years ago

    All christianity stand on one foundation and that is the law of sin and death, the foundation of the kingdom of darkness.
    
    This thread proves me right.
    For though the denominations disagree, none of then nonetheless will ever forsake their foundation built by the antichrist which is established since the beginning.
    
    Don't eat else death...
    Which is death indeed to those who believe it.but life to those who believe it not.
    
    And we see Adam who will not be deceived eating, for He knew the tree was meant for life for those with life abiding in them.
    
    And death for those who belongs to death.
    
    And here we see how they cling to and justify their false doctrine as the spurn the grace of God.

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       aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Thank you.
       That was as clear as mud!

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       Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       indeed Kess.
       Grace before the law, during and after.
       Even without knowledge of the law, grace abounds.

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       Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Well said Kess.
       When will people see that and eat of life.
       But even so, if they eat of death then life -death will live forever. Hence, Adams departure, lest sin & death become eternal.
       
       I am so thankful & excited, that veil/curtain/separation was removed.

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    BDazzlerposted 14 years ago

    I think when Paul sums it up best "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything." 1 Cor 6:12 NASB
    
    For historical reasons, we Western Christians separate faith and works. 
    
    But, if we are in fact, transformed from within, if we are in fact the Righteousness of God because Christ was made sin for us... it's not faith OR works.  That's an improper separation.
    
    Seems to me that it's about the works that spring from the heart because of faith. 
    
    Then it's not just about behavior, it's not just about the heart it's about the whole thing.
    
    John tells us that Jesus (Yeshua) was full of "grace and truth" .... Grace without truth leads to overindulgence and hedonism.  Truth without grace leads to slavery to the law, which ultimately brings death.
    
    But "Grace and Truth" is from the Christ, who leads to the Father. It's the "whole thing". 
    
    Thus Paul can say, "I strive toward" and "I have not YET achieved".
    
    I think it's best described as a maturing process.

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       Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Physical death or Spiritual death?
       
       And what was Paul striving toward?  Ultimately, salvation (I believe).   
       
       Is that your view as well?

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          BDazzlerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Spiritual always, Physical often
          
          "Salvation" is one of those words which is defined based on one's background.
          
          For some evangelicals, the term "Salvation" often means the event in which one prays the sinners prayer.  And while that type of salvation event is vital, (although not always the way it seems on the outside, God is much bigger than that.). I believe it is only the beginning.
          
          From context, we see that Paul was striving to be as much like Christ as possible:
          
          Further context from Phil 3:10-11 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
          
          It is a complete life described here, not a single event: power, death, resurrection, suffering, fellowship ...
          
          I don't want to start a debate, so, I will state clearly that this is my opinion. But I don't think the phrase ... "somehow to attain to the resurrection from the dead." is about his personal salvation. Paul was already assured of that.
          
          And I don't think it is about just spiritual or just physical death.  It's about all of the above.
          
          I have seen a man raised from the dead.  He was dead for four or five hours: No brain activity.  No heart activity. And when he came back his body was healing from burns so quickly you could watch it happen.
          
          I can tell you from experience,  when you realize that "the power that raised Christ from the dead" really is within you...that the display of that type of raw resurrection power will humble you and sit you on your butt in awe, because standing is next to impossible.
          
          After discussing his trip to Heaven with my friend, I've come to believe that the line between the physical and the spiritual is much thinner than I ever imagined.

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    Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

    Before sin was Grace.
    After sin came the sacrifice, then captivity, the wandering, then the law.
    Law incurs rule & judgment of sin.
    The law could not do it, because of weakness of lust, therefore Y`shua did by suffering the law and all its parts, sin and all it parts, captivity and all its parts, to remove any speck of rubble that keeps any believer from the fullness of Life.
    
    The law dictates (wrath) where truth instructs (peace). The spirit in us is always desiring to be the fullness of Grace.
    
    S/Paul strives for perfection in salvation, knowing he was saved by grace. Even stating many times that all  things physical are spiritual. There is no division. In addition to expressing the authority given to each of us, to actually be restored -here and now. He points often to the resurrected Savior in supporting this truth.

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    Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

    So long as anyone eats of the law & prophets, they will definitely die -physically and (perhaps) spiritually. Millions upon millions have done this since the first (adam).
    
    So long as anyone eats of the tree of Life, Grace by faith through the Spirit, will they will not die but have everlasting Life.
    
    Many believe He will do it for them later on, but He did already.
    We must now do the Word and allow ourselves to be transformed.
    Now we have the free will to choose death or Life.
    
    What can I say, He is awesome!

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    SirDentposted 14 years ago

    Thinking on this some today and tonight, I recall reading about ten lepers who called out to Jesus. They broke the law when they did so because they were not supposed to be in contact with anyone.
    
    Sometimes breaking the law is what it takes to get God's attention. After the law was broken by them, they received grace and healing. Jesus was not planning on stopping there after all because the Word says He was passing through.

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       Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Interesting, I did not know that. It would explain why prisons are so full of Christians. Thanks for sharing. 

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    donotfearposted 14 years ago

    We need the Law to keep us on the right path. But the Law isn't what defines salvation.

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