Unconscious Cells?

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   marinealways24posted 14 years ago

   How do unconscious cells form a conscious body and mind?

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      Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      (psst) science calls it evolution   

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         marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Well, the body and mind do evolve from evolution of cells, but what is the scientific evidence that the cells aren't conscious?

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            Justine76posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I didn't know there was any? How would anyone know, unless thier cells suddnely revolted and said something like..hey, I dont like being your mind.

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      crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I believe the whole is not always merely the sum of its parts, to believe otherwise is reductionism - I am no reductionist.

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         marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         So how do you think an unconscious process arrives to design a conscious product?

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            crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Complexity always produces anomalies that are not characteristic of its parts.  The question you pose is not one of science, but of philosophy.

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               marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Philosophy designs science. What to you rules out cells being conscious, they communicate, reproduce, respond to their environment, the same basic conscious survival instincts that all other life show in adapting to the environment. What scientifically rules out the cells having consciousness?

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                  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  I have the same proof for unconscious, as anyone has for conscious - nothing.
                  
                  And that is why this is still a philosophical discussion, and not a scientific one.  Both sides have equal "proof."

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                     marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     lol There is not equal proof. There is far more logical proof leading to them having a level of consciousness, do you at least concede they have awareness of their environment and other cells to communicate with?
                     
                     It is only illogical to think unconscious cells could be the building blocks of conscious life.

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                        crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Your only argument is that the sum must be equal to its parts - that is hardly an argument at all.
                        
                        If they were conscious, they'd be much more chaotic.  Attributing human qualities, to non-human entities is anthropomorphism.  Just because you can't understand anything differently, that doesn't mean it's just like us.
                        
                        Man created God in his image for a reason.

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                           marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           lol That is not the only argument and you know it. Cell communication, cell defenses in creating antibodies display consciousness and awareness, yet you will not acknowledge these as consciousness. This is scientifically avoiding the truth.
                           
                           You don't think they are chaotic? Have you ever seen sperm compete to make you? That was pretty fkn chaotic considering most of them died and went threw hell to come out as your beautiful being that you are today. You are the origin of chaos just like everything else. The big bang was chaos. I think you are the one that doesn't understand. Man created God for control and comfort from this existence of chaos.

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                              crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              That isn't chaotic at all, all sperm cells compete.  There isn't the lazy sperm cell that decides "hey you know what, I really don't feel like doing this, I'd much rather just die."
                              
                              It is completely absurd to insist they are aware.  Biological organisms are made up of the same stuff non-biological things are, but arranged differently.  By your theory, my desk knows its a desk.  If cells were conscious, cell structures would be constantly falling apart, the world as we know it would not be cohesive.

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                                 marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 So the sperm compete for no conscious reason? Why and how would a sperm compete without consciousness?
                                 
                                 Does your desk make conscious reactions to survive the environment?
                                 Cell structures are constantly falling apart, this is what some diseases do to them. If cells weren't conscious, we wouldn't and couldn't know that we have them.

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                                    marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    I'm not the only one that thinks cells have a level of consciousness.
                                    
                                    http://www.quantum-consciousness.org/in … ative.html

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                                       crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       lol, and I'm not the only one that thinks they don't.
                                       
                                       It is a theory like all others, and at present I do not believe there is sufficient evidence to convince me.
                                       
                                       But I'm happy there is an opposition or else who would I debate with

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                                       Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       There is no reason to assume ALL cellular units are not conscious -in that, energy is ever evident, constant (not applied human algorithmic perception) and in any of the stasis indeed have instinct. Instinct being the genetic programming of survival/doing what they do. However, the awareness within that stasis is what separates primal instinct from causality/to do, to purpose. If all elements were aware they would not be cohesive to anything else, having choice to reason and determine what they prefer.
                                       
                                       so, are they genetically or "molecular challenged", certainly not.
                                       The limitation of their ability is the natural structure/order.
                                       
                                       A tree is conscious but not aware, else when heavy rains come, it would "Entmood" itself to higher ground.

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                                          crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          I can agree with this because it clearly states the limits on the word conscious - where it ends, and awareness begins.
                                          
                                          In psychology the term consciousness presupposes awareness, but I can submit in biology a separation of the terms could be made.
                                          
                                          As I've said before in another thread - this is more a discussion of semantics than of anything else.

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                                             Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                             indeed, and I suppose it has to be semantic, else explaining it makes no 'sense'.

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                                       marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       Which takes more faith to believe, that something conscious or unconscious can adapt to it's environment?

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                                       marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       Awareness, consciousness, subconsciousness, are are levels of consciousness, if something is aware of it's environment, it is conscious of it's environment.

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                                    crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    We aren't aware of our cells at all, the only reason we know we have them is because we created the technology to make small things look bigger.  We can see them under the right magnification and as such know they are there, but we otherwise have no awareness of their existence at all.
                                    
                                    Sperm competes because that is what it is programmed to do, nothing more.
                                    
                                    It seems you are in as much a need of a cause as the religionists you ridicule, but instead of creating a supernatural being to be the cause, you've chosen the building blocks.

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                                       marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       Did you read that link? It is interesting.
                                       lol The consciousness created by the cells coming together to form us is what allows us to have awarenss to observe them through a microscope. Explain this program of sperm. How does the sperm know where to go and what to do? What programs it?
                                       Don't start jumping to assumptions, you aren't hurting my faith, but I am hurting your logic. lol
                                       Anyways, I have enjoyed the conversation so far, thanks.

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                                          crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          I find it somewhat amusing that I earned your respect only when it became evident to you that I do not believe in a creator lol
                                          
                                          I will read the link, but I have a dance practice in 25mins so I can't read it now.  When I have a read it, I'll respond.

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                                       marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       Alright, please let me know your thoughts after reading it.
                                       I only said I enjoyed the conversation, didn't say you earned my respect.
                                       But I do like the fight in you.

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                                          crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          You wouldn't have chosen to follow me if it was otherwise.
                                          
                                          You also would have been significantly less polite, and would have thrown in some snide God remark by now

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                                       marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       Maybe I just wanted to make you conscious of when I respond to get you to respond sooner.

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                              Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              Not sure about unconscious or conscious cells, but I do agree fully with that statement. The universe is chaotic. Life is chaotic. It's not the orderly everything makes perfect sense world that religionists like to pretend it is.

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                                 Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 hmm, Pandoras, I cannot support that stance, as a non-religionist/non-scientist philosopher, life is very stable.
                                 Human perception of chaos is perhaps aloof. We perceive chaos as 'disorder' to our routine thinking (ask, indulge, answer). All energy is working together constantly, uniquely. Chaos would mean all is aware and nothing would solidify into anything.

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                                    Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    Perhaps I should have said believers in an interested higher power (ie. a god).

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                                    marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    I do think a balance is designed from chaos. Observe an animal mudering and feasting on another animals young eating it alive while the parent watches. The chaos of one animals death leads to survival of the next.

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                                       Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       Is the balance designed by chaos or manipulated by consciousness?
                                       
                                       As an aside the life giving power of death and the death bringing power of life is what was (mythologically of course) brought forth from Pandora's jar. (It was never a box, that was a mistranslation.)
                                       
                                       That's why Pandora was both revered and reviled by her followers prior to the remaking of her purpose and character by Hesiod.
                                       
                                       Totally an aside, I shouldn't have brought it up. There's something inside me that despises the way the simple and beautiful truths of nature have been rejected by ....human consciousness, lol.

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                                       marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       Hello Pandora, that is a hard question to answer and I don't know. lol
                                       Maybe everything is simply an illusion of consciousness. What is chaos to one person could be perfect working order to another while consciousness to one person could mean robotic to another. In one sense consciousness seems to design everything, in another sense, chaos seems to design everything. A good question is, can something unconscious design consciousness?
                                       I agree that most truths have been turned into lies for materialistic rewards. Most of us are only conscious of materialistic posessions and titles to define us, most truths have been sold for more money in lies and controversy.

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                                          Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          I see now that I misunderstood you. I thought you said balance designed BY chaos, but you actually said FROM chaos, which I totally agree with.
                                          
                                          I think the chaos is perceived as order because life adapted according to it. For us it works. If anything had been different, we would have evolved differently, and that would be perceived as order.
                                          
                                          But in truth it's chaos, space is chaotic, the universe is chaotic, earth is chaotic and life is chaotic. That's why things go wrong. It's also why there's disease and two headed goats or whatever, and why the whole planet may shift and throw us all for a loop.
                                          
                                          But it's beautiful anyway, cause it's our's!
                                          
                                          So that is what I meant when I said that maybe consciousness, or perhaps I should say life, manipulated a balance out of the chaos.

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                                       Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       balance of?

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      rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      life.

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      waynetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Well the body and mind has to do something bad to get unconscious and then thrown into the prison cells...being drunk could help!
      
      Will sleep on it in my prison cell...

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   Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

   there are no 'unconscious cells' just one's 'unaware' that they exist.

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      Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      

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   Shadesbreathposted 14 years ago

   It started as stimulus-response.  Evolutionary principles rewarded effective response traits and disfavored others. (A deer that reacts slowly dies and doesn't pass its genes forward; an amoeba that is slow to recognize it's bumped against an edible morsel will give one with quicker response the meal allowing it to grow more quickly and cell-divide sooner, pushing it's genetic meterial out in greater numbers sooner.)
   
   Recognition of opportunity and threats allow the more cognizant primates (and other creatures) to procure more resources and live longer, both working to push their genetic material forward.
   
   This sequence, over millions of years, refined the cognitive process to such a degree that the capacity to recognize opportunity became curiosity, and, in stages became the intelligence we have now, which, by the nature of advantage seeking and curiosity, can't help but seek to understand the nature of itself to divine what advantage that might bring, thus qualifying as "self aware" and perhaps the "conscious" you mean outside of just being awake and moving about.
   
   Least, that's how I see it based on what I've read and observed to date.  Feel free to insert God's hand at any point in the process if it makes you more comfortable.  It might well have been a god that set it into motion, or intervened at some point a long the way, but that changes nothing in how the process appears to have unfolded.  I think reading that Adam lept up out of the dirt and was like, "Oh yeah, I'm here now, baby!" may be a bit literal.  God may have had more patience than that.

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   Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

   consciousness is one of those well suited arguments against the present ideology of evolution. If an amoeba were both conscious and aware, would it choose to become asparagus and why? Asparagus contains the same fundamental energy as water or placebo or fossil fuel. Why would this singular 'perfect' unit 'decide' to multiple and become a massive array of tissue, bone, gluten based unit called a brain and rationalize the possibility of its existence is limited to only instinct? furthermore, why would it consider the possibility of something greater than itself? Why Strive if it is aware of what is and its ultimate mutation...

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      marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Consciousness designs evolution. It is the conscious thoughts that design the physical changes. Consider how many conscious and complex cells it takes to make a humans level of consciousness. Ameoba is certainly not on the collective consciousness as a human. If any life already knew it's destination, would it continue striving to be aware?

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         Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Your standpoint is always that of the human one and so your conclusions are always based on a human array of thought patterns, logic, rational thinking mixed with scientific exploration in some parts.  To start comparing human rationale to a plant's is fruitless.  You would need to be a plant to understand the consciousness of a plant.  Perhaps change your terminology and have respect for plant consciousness enough to understand you don't have it.

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            marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            lol I never said the level of consciousness was the same, I have always said there are different levels of consciousness.

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      Pandoras Boxposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Consciousness doesn't necessarily mean free will, I would think.

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   Pandoras Boxposted 14 years ago

   From Marine's Link:
   
   "Life started about 4 billion years ago-simple life, algae, and so forth. Then came the nucleated cell, then eukaryotic cells, but still, life evolved very minimally, reaching only very simple multicellular organisms until about 540 million years ago. Then, abruptly, there was this huge acceleration in evolution, which is called the "Cambrian Explosion."
   
   "Within 10 million years, all the phyla that exist today formed, and life took off. Why? Well, there are a lot of possible reasons. But it turns out that the size of the organisms at the beginning of the Cambrian explosion very closely matched what we would predict for conscious experience. They were small worms and tiny sea urchins. Fossils of these urchins, for example, look very much like present day tiny urchins whose spines are giant complexes of microtubules. So the hypothesis is that these were the first conscious entities, that one day there was sufficient quantum coherence in the nervous system of one of these the worms or the spines of an urchin to self collapse and experience happened-some little urchin or worm suddenly had an experience. Having experience and being able to choose non-computably was beneficial for survival and evolution accelerated."
   
   
   Fascinating stuff, marine, as always from you. Thanks for sharing.

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      marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Thank You Pandora, i'm glad you enjoyed reading it. I don't know if I agree with everything on that link, but I think there are some excellent ideas.

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         Obscure Divineposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I'm just curious:  Where was all of these people of today, that talk about yesteryear?  ...Just being a cynic of yesterday, while wondering about tomorrow... 

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            marinealways24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Friday is the only day that counts.

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