Is it a good idea to have a one world government?

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  1. Silent Assassin profile image61
    Silent Assassinposted 15 years ago

    In the end times according to the bible, there is meant to arise a one world goverment along with a false religion. Do you believe that a one world government will arise? and if so how?
    eg: Some conspiracy theorists have referred to the great seal as proof of the existance of such an organisation

    1. Neil Sperling profile image63
      Neil Sperlingposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      A One World Government as a Ruler?  No.

      A One World Government as corporate structure? No

      If there ever is a One World Government - it's only function could be to Govern.

      To Govern - it would need to have simplicity and ethics. "No program of handouts, nor even hand ups." It's only function could be one of global watchdog. Keeping greed out of every day life. Eliminating corporate misuse of human resources. Eliminating misuse of mother natures resources. Eliminating both over paying as well as underpaying jobs and the like!

      LOL - thus with the level of consciousness currently found on earth - mankind is not anywhere close to being ready to accept such a drastic change from the chaos and confusion we now have as world order! We better not go global government for another thousand years as I see it!

      1. SparklingJewel profile image66
        SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        You and others continue to think of government as you do, as we currently have...I view it as Government (God over men)...when we all have the One God in/as our consciousness, our Holy Spirit, Christ Mind, Higher Self what ever you want to call it, than there will be no need for government control...we will have our own God Self control and able to work harmoniously with each other for the common good of all.

        It could happen in the blink of an eye...but as long as there are those that rail against that possibility (of God being in control) there will be chaos.

      2. profile image0
        Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        We in the USA (our government), IS the one world government by that definition, seeing as how we are the world's only superpower and how we have already abused that power numerous times by policing the likes of iraq and digging our fingers into iran, somalia, syria, palestine, and a million bajillion other places where we are the ultimate global watchdog.

        I seriously think that we suffer from superpower syndrome and need to get over ourselves.

        I can be just as ethically/morally good a man in any other "free" society and as worthy a person whether I am in America or in europe or in canada or any other place.

        Imo the reason there is all this talk about "fear" of the one world government, is because we constitute the only one world government that has ever been in existance and as such exercise a great responsibility (being the imperialists we have become).

        1. profile image0
          sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          We in the USA (our government), IS the one world government by that definition, seeing as how we are the world's only superpower and how we have already abused that power numerous times by policing the likes of iraq and digging our fingers into iran, somalia, syria, palestine, and a million bajillion other places where we are the ultimate global watchdog.

          I seriously think that we suffer from superpower syndrome and need to get over ourselves.

          I can be just as ethically/morally good a man in any other "free" society and as worthy a person whether I am in America or in europe or in canada or any other place.

          Imo the reason there is all this talk about "fear" of the one world government, is because we constitute the only one world government that has ever been in existance and as such exercise a great responsibility (being the imperialists we have become).

          So your saying America is like the Old Roman Empire?

        1. profile image0
          Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          So your saying America is like the Old Roman Empire?

          Nah, not like the roman empire.  The Roman Empire and any other empire (Napolean's, Britain's, or any other empire), can be compared to us but I do not think we can be compared to them.  Different times, different politics, different "reach".  After the fall of the Soviet Union we have had no competition, and in the abscence of competition dominance can "slip" in in a way that is very much imperialistic.

          We are basically a machine (USA), our culture is pretty under-developed and we spit out money all over the place (to other countries).  We are somewhat overworked similar (in a few ways)  to some of the most hardworking countries on the globe (just look at our obesity rates and the corresponding sleep deprivation that comes from TV and long hours at work).  However, the kind of work even the average american does is different and more administrative in nature on a "global" scale than some of the work other people do in other countries.  Ever think about what effect sitting in that office from 9-5 would have not just on you, or your country, but every other denizen on this planet?  We are overworked and imperialistic (imo), and seriously need to develope culture that includes ways to genuinely relax (tv aside), and have community and friendship be more of a part of who we are.

          I think our culture could pretty much be summed up in three words, war, work, and tv.  What happened to the ability for us to trust each other as americans to the xtent where our children could play in the suburbia after school without fear of roving predators, or where we could have politics without such a disproportionate emphasis on scandal deciding not only who we vote for, but what we vote on.  What about trust?  We cannot trust our clergy, the FDA, the quiet ones in college, our own government, each other when we move to a new place.  It seems like with our culture we are going AGAINST THE GRAIN to establish patterns of community, hope, and friendship all the while juggling 9-5 and everything else.  For americans I think we need to alter our 24 hour (I am half joking) day so it includes 36 hours in it so that we can get everything we need to done and have time to relax with friends or go fishing or coffee shop or LAN party or w/e want to do.

          I for one am 26 years old and grew up in an America where I played on the streets after school with friends in suburbia atlanta, ga for certain years in my formative youth.  This was without fear of all kinds of media alarmism and knee jerk legislation that has come about in the meantime to rob us americans of what little culture we had in the first place.

      3. profile image0
        shinujohn2008posted 15 years agoin reply to this

        America is already trying to do the One world Government rule over many countries. I can only predict one thing, If countries get dragged into another World War, then there will be total destruction and Humans will  be Wiped off for ever. Humans will be having the fate like Dinosaurs,with our bones and skulls being found out by new Generation of Living Beings and being researched in labs.

  • Marisa Wright profile image89
    Marisa Wrightposted 15 years ago

    I think it would be disastrous.  Over the last few years, I've worked for a couple of global companies.  Having previously worked for companies that operated only in Australia, I was expecting these incredibly successful companies to be models of efficiency.

    Wrong.  It seems that the larger a company gets, the more things go wrong.

    In a large organisation, there's too much opportunity for people to become ciphers instead of people.  That means people can be exploited and no one notices;  people can be sitting doing nothing and no one notices;  people can rort the system and no one notices; the list is endless.

    Very few large organisations have the sense to delegate powers down the line. They all feel the need to control, which means they create huge top-heavy structures.  Those chiefs have to rely on reporting to know what's going on, so the lower ranks of the organisation spend more time producing useless reports than actually doing business.  Being a manager in a large organisation is all about what you are seen to be doing, and nothing to do with what you're actually achieving.

    I've spoken to many other people who work in global organisations since, and they all agree with me - bigger is not better.  I see no reason why a global government would be any different.

    1. Silent Assassin profile image61
      Silent Assassinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      After reading your experience, I wonder what made these companies so successful?
      Maybe if they had a reason to exercise some unheard level of control over people, like the threat of global terroism for example? It might work for them.
      Misha: hahaha is that the human condition? we are doomed to fail as one, because we are all too different? sounds logical to me, although historically there have been times when the most unlikely collective have untited for a common purpose for a short while, but as i remember it has gone on to spawn some even worse issues eg: WWI and WWII

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        That wierd, I was just sitting outside thinking, in order for man to rise, it must first fall.

      2. Marisa Wright profile image89
        Marisa Wrightposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        I think they were probably once efficient, when they were smaller.  Then when they get big enough, they wield so much power and influence, they can screw their suppliers down to keep their costs low, plus people buy from them because of their profile rather than their product.

        As for the control,the kind of people who get to the top in these big corporations tend to be control freaks so it's just in their nature.

  • Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    LOL this is one of the reasons it will never happen - cause such a government just won't be able to create itself because of terrible inefficiency big_smile

  • SparklingJewel profile image66
    SparklingJewelposted 15 years ago

    Well, I see two possibilities of one world government.

    The one that is done correctly when all people seek and attain their highest conscious awareness as One with God through our Christ Mind (Higher Self), this is the one that will work for the benefit of ALL people, not just the few. This is the "kingdom on earth", Jesus talked about and so has every other of the oldest original religions, though they called them something else. This is the Utopia concept that has been written about. This is possible...but there are some big changes that have to be made before it will happen, and each of us is accountable for our own consciousness.

    The other one that is done incorrectly is what we see happening through large organizations that may sound as if they have good intentions, but because they are so big and the people work mostly through their human consciousness not as connected with Higher consciousness/God that they could be, they can't get united on the issues.

    What we see, for instance, in the UN, and its inability to act in particular situations, in a United Europe, where each country has lost its individual sovereignty, in America where we have no appropriate control over our borders for a healthy, legal immigration to take place, every place where we  must make large collective decisions that don't usually benefit those most in need, because even though it is voted on, only a small portion of people take the actual actions to implement voted on decisions.   In Communism, in corporations, in big banks, in big health care systems, etc.... our individual choices are being lost and corrupted right out of our lives and the masses are too busy watching TV and being manipulated by all forms of the media, sex, alcohol, drugs and emotional pains and worries. They can't find their centered consciousness.

    I truly am coming from a centered place, even though it could be construed otherwise. But you have to look at the realities going on around us. More people need to start praying for God's Will and for the Order in accordance with the Universe to happen here on earth..

    It is between the not self and the real self of each person. Each person needs to seek and find their real self in God/Source and pray for others to do the same. Pray for our self and others to act for the good of humanity according to God's will. Find their "centered consciousness" to act from, respond from, create from.

    We mustn't ignore the atrocities, the manipulations, the tragedies, but pray for them to stop, command the angels to stop the people that do these things.

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this


      We mustn't ignore the atrocities, the manipulations, the tragedies, but pray for them to stop, command the angels to stop the people that do these things.[/quote wrote:

      I am curious, this is a question that I don't mean to ask so that you will be offened.
      Do you believe that the angles can command a person who doesn't believe in them?

      1. SparklingJewel profile image66
        SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        I am curious, this is a question that I don't mean to ask so that you will be offened.
        Do you believe that the angles can command a person who doesn't believe in them? 

        What I meant was that people can command the angels to take command in situations that need it. The call compels the answer when the connection is accepted as real, which can happen even if they may not believe that they believe. As individuals we can not know everything about our entire being or others. But we can command the angels to act according to God's Will/order of the universe. And that the angels can not act in our plane of existence unless someone makes a call/prayer to ask for God's help.

        God is the energy that created all...races of humanity, races of angels, Elohim, Elemental Life, others planes where ascended souls move on to higher realms of existence or stay within earth realms to help humanity (Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, etc)

        It is my belief that souls that have accepted that God created angels, and have accepted that they are co-creators as One with God, can learn to command angels to act on behalf of humanity. To rescue, to help stop wars, etc...

        At this point in time my understanding is, that because of the universal laws/divine order of karma good and bad (by human terms) is a  very complicated and intricate situation.

        For instance, commanding angels to stop war....they can intercede (protect souls from harm or degrees of harm) according to each individuals karmic state, according to universal laws. But war is a messy and chaotic state with many players. Each person's actions create cause and effect...ohhhh!? is totally simply undefinable smile

        Another example.... if someone prays for someone for the angels to protect is up to the karmic record of the person being prayed for how much the angels can do for them. Like if they were in a car accident...they might still get hurt, but not die. Like the paramedic says they don't understand how this person lived, after looking at the shape the car was in after the accident.

        Or sometimes the person doing the praying, because of their state of karma as attainment of good done, can override the karmic state of the one being prayed for, to intercede to help that one.

        I have had several experiences with angels that have proven their existence and the power of my call to them to help a matter of fact in my book, they are a regular part of my day to day life.

        Yes, I believe that angels can take command in a situation even if the person does not believe in them...remember at our highest level of consciousness, we are all One, whether our human mind believes it or not. smilesmilesmile

  • Inspirepub profile image73
    Inspirepubposted 15 years ago

    Command is not the way of God.

    Consider using the word "influence" instead ...


    1. SparklingJewel profile image66
      SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, I mean command...from some of what I have experienced it was definitely God taking  command of the situation.  But that's not to say that the other aspect of love, as you call influence or gentleness/kindness, does not hold sway as well. I have experienced both. It depends on what the soul needs at the moment ! smile smile big_smile

  • kerryg profile image82
    kerrygposted 15 years ago

    Personally, I think one world government would be disastrous, and not because I believe it would bring on the End Times. As Marisa pointed out, the inefficiency by itself would prevent anything getting done, and I think also that the diversity of this world is just too great. Too much of the world is still basically tribal in outlook - even relatively small countries like Rwanda are completely unable to control the two or three ethnic groups within their borders. Even less tribally focused nations have racial and ethnic problems. I assume this is less true now, but for a long time it was said that you couldn't open your mouth in Britain without somebody hating you on the spot, and the failure of European nations - partly due to their own institutionalized racism and imperialistic belief in the "white man's burden" - to successfully integrate their Muslim immigrants in particular is already producing catastrophes. America, as a nation of immigrants, has been better at smoothing over these sorts of tensions than most, but we still have a poverty-stricken underclass made up in large part by racial minorities, and constant fretting about how the latest wave of immigrants to the country is destroying our American values, from the Know-Nothings rioting against the Irish in the 19th century to the people howling about the Mexicans today.

    One person's Utopia is another's Dystopia. What about the roughly 67% of the world's people who aren't Christian?

    1. SparklingJewel profile image66
      SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Sorry if my entire post wasn't clear enough, I did not mean just Christians. We all have a highest level of consciousness regardless of our religion or lack thereof. I just happen to call it the Christ consciousness. Jesus showed the ultimate attainment of it, but many others have attained close to it throughout history...even before Jesus lived.  As far as I am is not a religious thing, but a spiritual thing (Utopia, I mean).

  • SparklingJewel profile image66
    SparklingJewelposted 15 years ago

    I continue to hold the vision and do my part as best I can. big_smile Staying positive and holding the vision is the #1 thing to do...and the other things are too numerous to write.

  • knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    They already have governments of God. They are the like Taliban, Sharia Law, or the polygamists in Texas. No one invisions the same God or even if. Which is why the concept of separation of church and state. Government is to force agreement, and where it cannot, it makes laws, so most everyone stops at red lights. Laws with penalities are necessary, because not everyone can even agree on something so obvious. You might see people run lights everyday.

  • knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    The plan for 'One World Gov is called 'The Project For A New American
    Century'. The actualization was a 6 week war in Iraq, then on to Iran and Venezuela. They would then control the world's oil supply, and thus control
    China and Russia. However they over-reached, did not take into account the Iraqi resistance, were not able to control Putin or dislodge Chavez. They gambled and lost, and we'll have to wait and see what the debt will engender.

  • Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    I don't know about Zarm, but I'm telling this for quite some time already. smile

    Yes, America is an empire, much like Roman or Osman or Russian or any other empire in history. It looks like empire, it smells like empire, it tastes like empire, and it behaves like empire smile And it will disintegrate eventually, as ALL empires did...

  • profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    I am wondering, Jeromeo keeps saying that organized religion will be outlawed, however it looks more like the "nations" are trying to organize a One World religion....

    I suppose lessons are never learned from the past, as every "empire" consist with greed and eventually fall. 

    I wonder what will happen next?

  • Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    Well, I can't really expand on Jeromeo's forecast, he should know better. smile

    As for the fall of American empire - next empire will arise shortly, I have no doubt in that...

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      who you bettin' on?  I am gonna have to go with........China I guess. lOl

  • Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    They are kinda empire already smile But they have a couple of really strong neighbors, and this makes further expansion really really complicated for them. I would rather bet on a Muslim empire arising on Middle East and parts of Central Asia and North Africa - but I could be wrong of course smile

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Very interesting.  I do wonder, if the world would just give Isreal what is thiers to begin with, would this fighting stop.  I bet if we did, they would leave us alone.  Oh,'s us who keep bothering them.  WHYYYYYY!!!!!!!

      No seriously,  I would prabaly put my money on the Middle East as well, do you think if they did become the world empire, that they would treat each nation fairly? 

      Not that I think America or any other nations treats anyone fairly, but maybe they would. 
      What is your though Misha?

    2. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      The way I see it, America has no plans on retracting from the middle east, which really makes me wonder. 

      though in the future I would hope that the good people of Islam would realize that the good people in the world don't want to fight either. 

      I do suspect, though not entirely certain, that thier radical government, or extremist leaders are telling them a lot of mumbo jumbo to fuel their anger.  In much the same way our media perpetrates Islam as a hole to be bad people, when it certainly is not true, not by any means.

      I suppose the best step a person could take in understanding the good Islamic people is to talk to them.  It does seem however, that the major religion of this country is filling peoples minds up with crude interest and spreading lies of thier own.

  • Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    Well, they will treat other nations as they see fair. This does not mean it is the same what you think is fair for your nation - but I guess they won't care, as most Americans don't care now...

    And no, I don't think it will be about Muslim fundamentalism. You can't really build an empire on any kind of radical views, people will revolt. Some degree of tolerance is necessary for empire to exist. In other words, if they try to build fundamentalist empire, they fail smile

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      well put Misha.  I guess we will see what happens.  smile

  • Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    If we live long enough wink

  • Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    Actually I think Islam is more humane religion than Christianity. In a sense that it does not try to bend our biology that much.

  • Inertia profile image54
    Inertiaposted 15 years ago

    Is it a good idea to have a one world government?

    Depends who the leader is,a country or a nation is only as good as its leader.

    1. remowill profile image60
      remowillposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      How would you represent everyone?

  • profile image0
    Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years ago

    The whole x-tian prophecy about a one world government is, in my opinion, more conspiratorial pie in the sky which is typical of organized religion.

    The only scenario I could see where there would be a good chance for a one world government to arise would be once we have colonized at least 4 or 5 other planets, and we are ages away from that kind of stuff.

    It really is pie in the sky, the whole one world government thing.  Of course, some people have no problems at all believing such nonsense because they read books that tout it as legitimate conspiratorial nonsense.

  • Prophecy Teacher profile image61
    Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years ago

    The idea of a One World Government is as old as man himself. 1948 changed everything in the equation. The Atomic Bomb, oil and the foundation of Israel as a nation - has brought the world into a dangerous balance of Geopolitics. It is naive to believe we can wish these circumstances away. History hates a vacuum and that is what many in America are proposing; a vacuum, as if nothing really, really bad will happen afterward. What solutions does anyone ever express other than America is wrong? We either confront Totalitarianism or not. We have seen what both options produce.

       Many here are expressing views that have no relation to the real world mechanics of brute force. It is impossible for Dictatorial, or Totalitarian nations to join with Democracies. Nor is it possible for expansionist religions to stop expanding - if their Holy books command it. Especially if it's by force. The West is attempting to do both, Democratize the Totalitarians, (Russia and China) and soften the radical elements within Islam. And they have decided to do it while they have the upper hand.

    As for me, I agree with the idea - but not necessarily the methods. In any event - it is clearly a race against time - given the state of world technology and the proliferation of more and more destructive weapons at all levels. (Bio and Chemical, and nuclear)

       The postulate above that the world is in the thralls of a conspiracy - is correct. That it is secret is not. The Western world having risen to the pinnacle of world power during the last 500 years, is not, in this generation willing to relinquish that power to the Russian state and it's allies; nor to the Islamic state attempting to form. Nor a combination of them plus China.

    But what we are seeing is a spiritual war long ago predicted.


       Israel is the epicenter of the world. The Bible predicted this 2500 years ago when it said "in the last days Israel will be re-gathered from among the nations and come back into their own historic land which had always been waste". It also clearly says that when this happens, the whole world will revolve around her.

       In my mind that is true. But even if it isn't in other's minds - the history surrounding that event should be compelling.

       In 1917 the Balfour agreement was signed allowing Israel the right to return. This came about as the result of WW1. As the result of the Second World War - Israel actually returned.

       WW1 saw the demise of the Islamic Ottoman Empire and had they stayed intact - would have easily overwhelmed the future Israeli state. But because they lost WW1 - they weren't there to overwhelm her. Between the wars, the Muslim Ottoman nation was chopped up into smaller pieces. The following 25 years saw the nations from them ruled by different men and ideologies. They were very divided and while they were Israel grew stronger and finally in 1968 after 3 wars - they took Jerusalem.

       The Founding of the nation of Israel united the newly individual Muslim nations against a common enemy - and the war has been hot and cold ever since. The Bible tells us this war will not end until the Muslim nations surrounding Israel are defeated. The Muslim nations will unify into one nation with Russia as their main (nuclear) ally, The West is attacked soon after this Muslim nation forms. According to prophecy, the Muslims and Russia attack the West.

       The Western world is apostate from it's early founding Christianity. As such, there is a one world movement among the nations to unify the religions and base them in unity in Rome as the mother church. This movement is very far along and very advanced. This movement started in 1948 as well - but picked up steam in 1962 at the Vatican Council II. The secular Western World realizes that unless Islam as a religion is neutralized from it's historic methods, the world will be brought into a conflagration in any event. (The unified Muslim world against the unified psuedo-christian world) There is no doubt the West has motives here. But they are thinking as politicians, not Christians. (I am neither for nor against - I am merely reporting)

       The Bible clearly, and very simply predicts the players at the end of the age. They are a very great northern power, an apostate Christian world power that rules the nations, a very sudden  huge new nation which includes North Africa, the Middle East, Persia (Iran), and the Southern Caucuses. And finally, a group called the kings of the East and when they come into the war - there are 200 million of them (Presumably this is China, India or China and India.)

    So we have Russia, The West, Islam and the East with Israel in the center. That is the state of the world when the war starts. It never does unify. There is no one world government.

       All these armies fight finally ending up in the plains surrounding Israel.

       According to the Bible - there never will be a one World Government until this war has been fought. Afterwards, a one World Government is set up in Jeruslaem.

       Scripturally, the mistaken idea that there will be a one world government, comes from this verse;

    """"Revelation 13:3-7 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; and they worshiped the dragon, because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?"
    And there was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies; and authority to act for 42 months was given to him. And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven. And it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them; and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, every one whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain."""

    The head wound which had been healed, is the very near future revival of the Ottoman Muslim Caliphate ruled by a coming Caliph (The Mahdi). The beast is the Muslim nation which began in 623ad and conquered the other 6 Kingdoms that had ruled over Jerusalem. Islam now sits atop the lands of all those former nations. Muslims controlled the former empires as an empire itself,  until 1923. Since then - it is as if it has died. But it will come back to life. The prophecy says they will reunite and become the 8th empire to rule over the world - but by this - it means it will rule over the other 7 and JERUSALEM. That is the world in Bible prophecy. (There are numerous examples clearly showing this to be correct)

    That is why we see the 4 great powers coming into war in order to determine the outcome of the ages. If the Antichrist or any other leader - controlled the world from one government - there would be no way the armies could fight. (Supposedly)

    This is not an anti-Islamic rant. These prophecies were written before there ever was a single Muslim. If Chinese just happened to sit on these lands, which just happen to surround Israel, which just happen to have most of the world's oil - at exactly the moment the Bible says Israel will be there again - then it would have a Chinese bent to it - and not Islamic.

    The prelude to this war is being played out before our eyes.


    Israel did not steal the land. The Ottomans lost the war and their lands were given over to the winners. At the end of WW2, the British were given a Protectorate which was eventually given over to the UN - who split Palestine in two. Israel accepted the terms - the Arabs did not.

    The very next day after Israel declared itself a country and took the land the UN gave them - 5 Arab nations attacked and they were supported by the newly formed Arab League.

    For balance here is the Declaration of the Arabs the day of Israel's founding. It is their view of the events.

    1. profile image0
      Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Uh, lol?

      You are delusional if you sincerely think the idea of a one world government has been around for ages.

      "Nothing new under the sun" right?

      Yeh, except the atom bomb, plastic, and antibiotics (as well as plenty of other things like cell phones and computers).  I would put the one world government on that list as well.

      People like you are caught up in some self fulfilling prophecy which demonizes other sorts of pie in the sky one world governments that don't play by your rules.  This pie in the sky nonsense is a good example of ridiculousness ridiculing ridiculousness.  These concepts fester into paranoia as you see things "conspire" to stop your particular version of pie in the sky.

      L. Ron Hubbard really was right when he said that humans could be sold pieces of blue sky and aspired to do so.

      But, that being said, one has to make a choice of whether or not one wants to do such a thing, and I for one will not.

      I will also condemn, hate, and expose those that do...

      Even though they may have the best of intentions..

    2. Make  Money profile image67
      Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Prophecy Teacher maybe you could tell me where this is in the Bible please?

      And this,

      I can't seem to find either of them in the Bible anywhere.

      Please post the books, chapters and verses.

      Or if anyone else knows please post them.


      1. Prophecy Teacher profile image61
        Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        TO READ THE ENTIRE THOUGHT - GO TO EZEKIEL 37-38 and 39-40

        Chapter 37 describes Israel as dead and hopeless (the valley of the dry bones prophecy) but God visits them and brings them back to life and puts them back in their land. Chapter 38 tells what happens after they are back in their land. It describes a great war from a power from the Far North - one which Israel is powerless to defeat. But God defeats the power in front of the entire world. This great Northern power has many allies. Below is the story of the war - and in it - you will see the verses that pertain to your questions and what I quoted. There are 100's of verses that describe every aspect of this future war. They also describe the state of the world immediately before it - during it - and after it. The verses are spread among many chapters.

        Ezekiel 37,38,39,and 40 are written in a chronological order.

        1) the revival of Israel in the last days
        2) the attack from the Great Northern power allied with the Muslim lands
        3) the destruction of the power of Islam
        4) the setting up of the Millennial Kingdom of God ruled from Jerusalem and the worldwide peace that breaks out as a result of the defeat of Totalitarian rule and Islam as a World Power. (According to other verses, Islam will be unified at the time)

        (The destruction of the Apostate Western World is described elsewhere.)

        Below - I have put the contemporary names for the countries in parenthesis; this will help you see what countries are involved. Any ancient map will show you the names and where they were when the Prophecy was originally given in 600BC.

        Ezekiel 38

        1And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

        2Son of man, set thy face against Gog, (the prince of) the land of Magog, (Southern Russia, the Caucuses and Southeastern Europe) the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, (Turkey) and prophesy against him,

        3And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:(Turkey)

        4And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

        5Persia, (Iran) Ethiopia, and Libya (Northern Africa) with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

        6Gomer, (Turkey) and all his bands; the house of Togarmah (Turkey) of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

        7Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.

        8After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

        9Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

        10Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:

        11And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

        12To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

        13Sheba, and Dedan, (Saudi Arabia) and the merchants of Tarshish, (Spain and Portugal) with all the young lions thereof,(Mediterranean Nations)  shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

        14Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

        15And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

        16And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

        17Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? (most Bible prophecy predicts this series of events in one way or another)

        18And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.

        19For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

        20So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

        21And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

        22And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

        23Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

        Chapter 39 goes on to tell the aftermath of the war.

        Here is a Map identifying the nations … /cma37.gif

        Here is a map of Islam today. It is essentially the same map. You have to remember this was prophesied before Islam existed. … /cma34.gif

        Here is a map of what the Fundamentalists want to revive as a single Nation Ruled by one leader. It is all the lands the Muslim have ruled. According to the Koran - once Muslim - always Muslim. The Fundamentalists believe that with their whole heart. … lim_01.jpg

        So here you have Historic Islam, Prophesied Islam and the Islam the Fundamentalists want to unify. They are all the same map.


        1. Make  Money profile image67
          Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          So Prophecy Teacher it looks to me like you are trying to say that you came to this conclusion,

          From this verse in Ezechiel 38,

          Well I don't know about that.

          Especially when you consider Jesus said this about the lost sheep of Israel that decided to follow the sanhedrin and pharisees instead of Him,

          Matthew Chapter 21: 19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. And 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

          Or this and this about the sanhedrin and pharisees,

          Revelation, chapter 2:"9": I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

          Revelation, chapter 3:"9": Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

          I could go on and on with verses about Jesus telling His apostles to dust off their feet and walk away if any of the the lost sheep of Israel did not listen to them.  Here's one more,

          Gospel of Mark Chapter 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

          Prophecy Teacher you do realize that the first 3,000 that joined the apostles to form the initial Christian church at the first Pentecost were also part of the lost sheep of Israel, don't you?

          Do you not think the apostles and those first 3,000 had claims to the promise?

          And do you not think that they would have more of a claim to the promise seeing they listened to God's word?

          What is in question here is who exactly are the Chosen People.

          Prophecy Teacher you seem to have things upside down.  But they say in the end days right will be wrong and wrong will be right.

          I put this web page together a couple of years ago but I haven't shown it to many people.  But it's high time I do so the chosen know who they are,

          It's time for Christians to get off the fence, either they are a Christians or a zionists.

          Christian Zionists, Zionist Jews and freemasons have completely distorted Christianity for many people.  What are you Prophecy Teacher, a Christian Zionists, a freemason or a Zionist Jew.

          The Jews of today are still following the teachings of the pharisees and the Sanhedrin has recently been reestablished.  The utensils have been made and are ready for the blood sacrifice once the third temple is rebuilt which will be on the Dome of the Rock, the third most holiest site in Islam.  There's a farm in the US breading unblemished red heifers for the sacrafice.  The so-called stone of destiny is in the UK ready to be moved to the temple once it is built.  All this can be proven with different web sites.

          2 Thessalonians chapter 2 has something to say about the temple,
          2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, 4 Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God. 5 Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?     

          The United Nations agreement in 1948 had completely nothing to do with any chosen people.

          There are a lot more Palestinian Semites in the state of Israel than there are Jewish Semites.  The Jewish Semites are Sephardic that used to live in peace with the Palestinian Semites before the birth of zionism just over 100 years ago.  Do a Google search for Jews against zionism, you will find lots of Jewish sites that do not support the state of Israel.  The majority of Jews in Israel are Ashkenazim that mostly immigrated from Russia.

          Arthur Koestler has quite the tale to tell about the Ashkenazim Jews in his online book called The Thirteenth Tribe,

          Oh and by the way Prophecy Teacher Arthur Koestler also has something to say about Gog and Magog.

          Peace out

          1. Paraglider profile image88
            Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Oh well, I suppose it was just a matter of time. A lot of us have been saying that retrospective analysis of biblical prophecy is a complete waste of time because you can use it to justify any prejudice you like.

            Here we have the proof - a new Prophet has joined in, convinced that biblical prophesy is valid, yet arriving at exactly the opposite interpretation from that of our Prophet in Residence.

            Dare I say QED?

      2. Prophecy Teacher profile image61
        Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        I can't seem to find either of them in the Bible anywhere. Please post the books, chapters and verses.


        The above scenario is derived from several sources. There are two views.

        1) That Gog and Magog is Russia

        2) That Gog and Magog is Turkey

        In any event - it is a far north (to Israel) power. This power has many allies (all the allies listed are Islamic Lands)

        So, it is either Russia allied with Islam - or a Revived Turkey allied with all the other Islamic lands. Turkey was the center of the Islamic caliphate for hundreds of years until it's WW1 defeat in 1917. The Caliphate was dissolved in 1923.

        Turkey is now in the stages of turning from the Secular West. (Much more than people realize) After being staunchly Secular from the days of Atatürk in the 20's - it has in the last 6 years turned toward Islamism. The current leader has stated publicly he wants it to become an Islamic Republic based on the Iranian Model. (but not by using the same methods)

        The President is an Islamist and his wife wears the Habib. (Until recently - this was unheard of) Further, in addition to Iran, Turkey is reaching out to Syria and Russia - all in the last 30 days. The European Union has decided NOT to allow Turkey into the EU - even though it is a NATO ally. Instead, they have created the Mediterranean Union and talked them into that organization. Turkey has barred the US from using it's airbases in an attack against Iran -even though it will most likely be a NATO sanctioned action.

        This article below is 8 months old - (a little out of date) - but it shows the separate paths Turkey and Iran used to the same Islamic conclusion. It is believed that the Turkish model is about to prevail - and Turkey will be leading the Islamic World - not Iran. (Most geo-political anaylists are beginning to believe this as well) If so, that will explain the prophecy perfectly. A future expanded Islamic Empire ruled from Turkey initially  - is the great northern confederation. … htm?page=0

  • Inspirepub profile image73
    Inspirepubposted 15 years ago

    Actually, Israel did steal the land - from the Canaanites, via genocide.

    But they weren't the first.

    The Canaanites undoubtedly arrived in their own blood-soaked fashion without the benefit of a surviving oral history to record the fact for posterity.

    No one group or race has any legitimate claim to that piece of dirt.


    1. Prophecy Teacher profile image61
      Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      So from this we are to conclude no race has any claim on any piece of dirt. Can we all just come over to your house?

      1. profile image0
        Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        "All the territorial possessions of all the political establishments in the earth--including America, of course-- consist of pilferings from other people's wash. No tribe, howsoever insignificant, and no nation, howsoever mighty occupies a foot of land that was not stolen. "

        Mark Twain

        Taken From:

        Following the Equator

      2. Inspirepub profile image73
        Inspirepubposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Well, I certainly can't claim that piece of dirt - we rent the house we live in.

        You would be welcome if you contributed equally with the other adults who live here - financially, emotionally, and in caring for the children of the tribe.

        You may find that contribution a little difficult to make, though - the adults of our tribe give a LOT.


  • knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    For any American who thinks that Palistine is the homeland of the Jews from biblical times, I am sure they
    will be willing to give their own US property to the American Indians, free and clear, no questions asked.

    1. Prophecy Teacher profile image61
      Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      You go first. Show us the way.

  • sharad78 profile image38
    sharad78posted 15 years ago

    well it's an awsome idea to have a one universal government, people will have same opportunities all over the world & there will be less hassles in lots of things. more & more people will merge into each other's culture, there will be a lot to share intellectually too.

  • knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    'For any American who thinks that Palistine is the homeland of the Jews from biblical times,' 'You go first. Show us the way.' Your quip only works if I had stated that I think Palistine is the Jewish homeland, which I did and do not. Being your opinions are somewhat garbled, I am not sure if you yourself should be the first or not. But I can be absolutely certain, that you would never in any case.

    1. Prophecy Teacher profile image61
      Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Here's my point. As I mentioned earlier - there is no lack of those that suggest what the problem is - but they never seem to have any answers. The closest we ever seem to get on these forums - is - What about the Indians, what about the Canaanites, what about the UFO's or Mickey Mouse. wink

      What does any of that have to do with the very real Geo-political circumstances the real world finds itself in??

      Please - someone - give us some ideas. Does anyone have any answers other than everything is wrong?

      Come on knolyourself - state the solution - I think everyone "gets" the problem.

      How would you SOLVE the Middle East problem other than suggesting we should give the Indians back their land.

      And come on Inspire - what IDEAS do you have other than - the Jews stole the land from the Canaanites 3500 years ago. (But of course - you think time is an illusion so no one could ever be really responsible) smile

      WHAT WOULD YOU DO (((((((((((TODAY)))))))))

      Tap, Tap, Tap - probably no ideas.....

      1. Inspirepub profile image73
        Inspirepubposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        The Middle East problem was not given to me to solve, so what I would do is hold the intention that it is resolved for the greatest good of all, and get on with the work which has been given to me - the people who are in front of me right now.

        However, if I were to live in the Middle East, or be responsible for it in some way, I would begin with emotional education. And education about personal boundaries. Secondary education for women - pays off big time in the next generation, and women are much less warlike than men.

        If I had a magic wand, I'd ban organised religion from the planet completely, and teach everyone to deal much more healthily with the fear of death.

        However, I do not have a magic wand - or at least not that kind of magic wand.

        In essence, my idea is fundamentally - I would mind my own business. The business God brings to me each day.

        While you fulminate about world politics and Armageddon, and grandstand about the place flaunting your ego, whose life is made better? Whose worries are soothed? Whose heart and mind are expanded to hold a greater measure of Universal Love? What person did you pass by today without a smile, a word of encouragement, or even a shared glance acknowledging that we are all one?

        All the energy that you pour into thinking about and getting worked up about conflicts which are distant in space and time, what good could that energy do in your town, in your family, in your home? What could you accomplish that was REAL, today, if you took a stiff dose of humility and looked around you to see what tasks God has brought for your heart and hands right now?

        Do that for 48 hours, and then think again about the situation in the Middle East - if it still seems important to do so.


        1. Prophecy Teacher profile image61
          Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          That was beautiful Jenny. It was a wonderful progressive expression. I am absolutely certain it was heartfelt.

          But I do not think we can convert enough people to random acts of kindness as our preferred method - in the time we have left - even if it were 500 years.

          Even while you were trying to instruct me - your derisiveness towards me as a person just stating my opinions - and your feelings about my religiosity - show the hopelessness of the course you have chosen.

          Could you not show me a little mercy; could you not have smiled at me; could you not have judged me so harshly here and in the past; or has your own heart and mind not expanded enough to hold a greater measure of Universal Love, as you put it?


          Why do you and Zarm et al - hold for me and my ilk - a standard that yourselves can not hold? Perhaps we all need a new dose of humility.

          I'll go first. I humbly apologize if I've offended you. I've been sharp from time to time. I'll pay more attention to it in the future.

          1. profile image0
            Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            And what standard is that which I cannot allegedly hold?

            Insanity perhaps?

  • Eng.M profile image65
    Eng.Mposted 15 years ago


    everyone tryes

    difficult to happen in this world?
    does  it happen with animals?

    see ya

    1. Make  Money profile image67
      Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Well there's a novel idea.

      And the best that I have heard.

      1. Prophecy Teacher profile image61
        Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Make$ - the last part of your question is answered in Revelation 17 and 18. A woman rides a beast. The woman is the Apostate West and the Beast is the Nation of Ezekiel 39 we just read. It says the Beast hates the woman and attacks the woman and burns her with fire. He does this after he is unified.

        If you would like a deeper explanation - email me and we can talk.

  • Prophecy Teacher profile image61
    Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years ago

    Give me a minute make$. I'll get it for ya.

  • Inspirepub profile image73
    Inspirepubposted 15 years ago

    What makes you think that I judge you at all, Prophecy Teacher?

    I would remove organised religion from the world, yes - but you are not your religion. You are a human being, and without your religion you would be just as much a unique, valuable and lovable human being as you are now.

    I feel no need to convert anyone to anything. I believe that God can handle the Universe just fine without any intervention on my part. I do speak - with or without words - sincerely and profoundly to whomever God puts in my path, in whatever way matches where they are at, to the best of my ability.

    You have not offended me - there is no need to apologise. I can feel your frustration and sense of desperate urgency in the way you speak.

    What if there is actually no hurry?

    What of everything is unfolding exactly as it should be?

    What if you are already perfect, and the world is already perfect, and there is nobody who needs saving?

    What if there is nothing you need to do - there is just the opportunity to BE?


  • Prophecy Teacher profile image61
    Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years ago

    One day, there was a King with a vast and very great army and he rode up to a peaceful walled city. When he got to the city he had his archer send a message over the wall. Inside the city a peasant got the message and delivered it to the king of the city. The Message read:

       IF we capture your city, we will kill all your men and we will tear your walls down and burn your houses. We will steal your gold and all your treasures. We will rape your women and take your children as slaves. After that - we will kill all your animals and salt your wells. Only then - will we leave.

       The King in the city after reading the message thought for a minute and wrote one himself. He had his archer send it over the wall. Outside the city, the message was brought to the attacking king. When he opened it up and read it - it said only this:


    1. Paraglider profile image88
      Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      OK, I'll play your game - explain your parable please. Who is the King outside? Who is the King inside?

  • Prophecy Teacher profile image61
    Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years ago

    No one. I was talking to Inspires' repeated use of the words "What If"


    1. Paraglider profile image88
      Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      OK - sometimes it's hard to tell. I thought perhaps you were prophesying a world domination coup wink

  • Inspirepub profile image73
    Inspirepubposted 15 years ago

    Prophecy Teacher, there is a world of difference between "if" and "what if".

    Nay, a Universe.

    One implies doubt, the other, abundance and freedom.

    I can see by your answer that you did not make a serious attempt at the thought experiment.

    Your loss.

    A life shaped by fear is less enjoyable, although equal in artistic merit.


    1. Mark Knowles profile image57
      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      How about a life shaped by attempting to make others fear? smile

  • Prophecy Teacher profile image61
    Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years ago

    Churchill tried to make people realize the danger they were in. He tried for many years. They said he was making his own predictions come to pass by antagonizing Hitler into action against them. A sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. They said  he was trying to fill them with fear. Eventually, laughing at him, they pointed to the peace agreement Chamberlain had signed with Hitler, as proof they had been right.

    18 months later - they begged him to lead them. He wrote this as a lesson for us to learn.

    """""""""If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."""""""""

       I know, I know Mark - I'm no Churchill. But I,  like him,  do not attempt to fill people with fear but rather knowledge and awareness. They can look at the evidences and make up their own minds. It doesn't matter to me who believes it.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image57
      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      If it didn't matter to you who believes it, you would not be doing what you are doing.

      And it is fair to say you are twisting the "facts" to suit yourself. As I said when you first assaulted the forums with these accusations, "prophecies," and "proofs," - I could say what you are saying in one sentence:

      "Repent, the end is nigh."

      Not exactly new, and no where do I see you suggesting a solution or alternative.

      Repenting will not do anything big_smile

      I live close to a large Muslim community, and I have spent time in Christian communities. A clash is inevitable because there can be only one dominant political control system in place, which is what both religions are.

      But I will say again - Look East, the Russians, Chinese and Indians are coming.

  • Prophecy Teacher profile image61
    Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years ago

    I've read extensively about the subject Make$. I was particularly interested after reading Douglas Reed's seminal work "Controversy of Zion."

       But that 1955 book ,and your 1976 book - have some catching up to do. This is not the place to discuss this subject and I can tell you are so deep into the Anti-Semite aspect of it - that I do not wish to discuss it with you. No offense.

    But you can see the latest evidence below and research further concerning the genetics of it.

    (There's a short bibliography at the bottom of the page which can guide you to more)

       I am not a Zionist - nor even a Christian Zionist. I believe Israel is an Apostate Secular State like the West is. There are very few Righteous Torah believing Jews in Israel - nor Messianic Jews. I do not support the Zionist political ideal - but I do support the Righteous Jews within Israel and believe they will ultimately prevail.

       In my spiritual opinion, if God chose to bring them to Israel in that form so be it. They weren't exactly brought too pretty the first time either.

  • Make  Money profile image67
    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    There you go calling me an anti-semite again.  But you don't even seem to understand the term.

    From the True Torah Jews web site, … /index.cfm

    What is a "Semite"?...the common definition:

    1. A member of a group of Semitic speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.

    When you take into account the areas that the Carthaginians or Phoenicians traveled that wikipedia site means nothing. 

    This is not the place for you to do your war mongering either.

  • Make  Money profile image67
    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    But who's the false prophet?  :-)

    And I'm not war mongering.

    1. Paraglider profile image88
      Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      All prophets are false. Prophesy is false. Even weather forecasting doesn't claim accuracy for more than a few days ahead. Nothing that is happening today was foretold in the bible. Be sure of this - if the Third Reich had triumphed in WW2, both of you guys would now be saying that was foretold too.

    2. Mark Knowles profile image57
      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Are you claiming prophet-hood also then?

      1. Prophecy Teacher profile image61
        Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Hey Mark, you never know. You might just be next. … /808230343

        1. Mark Knowles profile image57
          Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          LOL - I am amazed that people who get famous all of a sudden think they are a prophet of some kind smile

          Tom Cruise.............

      2. Make  Money profile image67
        Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        No I am not Mark.  I just said that because Paraglider mentioned it.  Note my lame smiley face in my previous post.  Up to now I was over looking the Smilies link. smile

  • knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    'But after his spiritual transformation, he said, he had had enough of death, murder, blood, and chaos.' What is it a death-bed confession or a death-bed conversion? Gee I'm sorry I didn't mean it. It's ok my boy, now that you have come around to our point of view - all your evil is forgiven. Let the murderer go he is a christian now. Offer not only easy, but can't refuse.

  • Prophecy Teacher profile image61
    Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years ago

    Whoa....slow down there - I say slow down now.

    He wrote books about it. He didn't do murder.

    And he wasn't on his death bed.

    Of course, you missed the miracle of a total and complete healing right? No trace of the cancer and no trace of the surgery. TOTAL AND COMPLETE.


    Of course.


    Ok, your turn - now you can talk about the moral failings of the pedophiles as proof God doesn't exist. (as your back up position) wink

  • knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    Doctors at the Cleveland Clinic removed 80 percent of his larynx, put a tracheotomy tube in his throat, and told him he must quit drinking and smoking immediately.
    At age 56, after a lifetime of wild living, Mr. Eszterhas knew it would be a struggle to change his ways.
    'Of course, you missed the miracle of a total and complete healing right? No trace of the cancer and no trace of the surgery. TOTAL AND COMPLETE.' Your capacity and tenacity for misinformation is staggering.

    1. Prophecy Teacher profile image61
      Prophecy Teacherposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I'm not much a tit for tatter  - but you still haven't read the article close enough.

      """"""""""my tissue had regenerated to the point where you cannot only not tell that there was ever any cancer there, but you can't tell that there had been any surgery there.""""""""

      He said my tissue had regenerated.(replaced what was there)

      He also said you could not tell there had been surgery.

      Those two things were impossible if 80% of it is gone as he originally said.

      In other words - a complete ""regenerated healing"".

      But what the heck, send the newspaper an email and be sure.

  • Make  Money profile image67
    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    Thanks Prophecy Teacher.  I enjoyed that story about Eszterhas.

  • knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    Seems to me the US is trying to impose a one world government called Pax Americana by the left, and New World Order by the right, where a few thousand UN troops are going to take over the US. Seems to be a problem with one world government: like Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, Russia, China, ever more South American countries, Burma, North Korea, Somalia, Pakistan and too numerous to count countries who would not be too
    thrilled with the project.

    1. Make  Money profile image67
      Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Actually knolyourself Pax Americana is used by the neocon right as we can see in this wikipedia.

      Quote from
      "For example, it appears repeatedly in a September 2000 document, Rebuilding America's Defenses, pdf by the neoconservative think tank, Project for the New American Century, but is also used by critics to characterize American dominance and hyperpower as imperialist in function and basis."

      My previous long post that was in contrast to Prophecy Teacher's post was to show that there is a major threat to all of us by the New World Order or Pax Americana or what ever you want to call it.

      Don't believe me, just watch this short video by these good old American ex-politicians. … re=related
      The video then directs you to this web site called If Americans Knew
      On average, the U.S gave more than $6.8 million to Israel each day

      The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: $3 Trillion  (That was the cost as of June 2003)

      Paul Findley (one of the good old American ex-politicians from the video above) Dares to Speak Out -- Again ! in this long video. … =undefined

      After watching this short video by an American Iraq war veteran I would not hesitate to try to financially help with my meager income if I met an American soldier that has gone awol here in Canada.  This one brought tears to my eyes. … re=related

      There is a struggle playing out on our planet right now between the West and the East for control of the New World Order. 

      We are seeing the start of the East side of it with Russia's incursions into the country of Georgia.  We have seen the other side of it with the West's support of Israel and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Neither side is right or on God's side.  It does not matter who wins this struggle because the majority of the people on this planet who are innocent (on both sides) will loose during and after the struggle, no matter who wins.

      More war is not the answer.

      But there is a solution.

      Please read this article about Miracles and Prophecies
      http://www.earn-cash-make-money-online. … pic=1457.0


      1. profile image0
        Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Fr. Gruner is bad news man, stay away from him.

        He is a cult figure and does NOT have your best interest in mind.

        That is my advice to you.

        Find the most liberal Catholic parish you can and attend Mass there for three months, JUST THREE.  Interact with the people and participate as best as you can, swallow your cynicism and suspend judgment.

        I can assure you that if you do this, the "fog" will clear.

        In the meantime, have nothing to do with that organization.

        If you change your mind and decide to go back , then you will have a bunch of stories about those "liberals" to tell all your Trad buddies.  But, if you stay, you just might change your mind about a lot of things and I can almost assure you that you won't end up "liberal catholic".

        Then you will be free of it.

        Just three months man, you will thank me if you take my advice.

        1. Make  Money profile image67
          Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          No Zarm I beg to differ.  Up to just recently there was no Latin Mass offered in our area.  So I have been going to the English Mass all along and it is valid.  On the first Sunday of each month the Latin Mass is now said in a parish in a little town that is just outside of the city that I live in.  The priest that says the Latin Mass also says the vernacular English Mass.  The priest that says the Latin Mass is not saying it because he belongs to a traditional Catholic organization, like Father Grunner's.  Rome has said that the Latin Mass should be available to any Catholic that wants to participate in it.  Latin is still the official language of Rome.  On the first Sunday of this past August I attended the first Latin Mass that I have attended in about 40 years.  It was beautiful with the priest facing the altar, prayer books with Latin on one side and English on the other so we can follow along with the priest, kneeling down for the Eucharist that we receive on the tongue, not the hand, with the Mass ending with the two prayers, Hail Holy Queen and St. Michael the Archangel, just exactly how I remember it 40 years ago.  There was even a small young group singing the old Catholic songs and even Gregorian chants.  It was truly beautiful.  Zarm you look young.  If you have not been to a Latin Mass I highly recommend it.  Father Grunner is not a cult figure.  If you think that the consecration has been done properly then when was the period of peace?  Russia was not even mentioned in the 1984 consecration and none of the bishops participated in that consecration.  There is no "fog" to clear my friend.  I do not believe everything that Father Grunner says (invalid) but I do believe that the consecration has not been done properly yet.  What would it hurt if they did the consecration properly?  At the very most it would upset some Eastern Orthodox prelates, but I doubt if it would even do that.


          1. profile image0
            Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Typical cultic mindset, oh well.

            If you want to get caught up in pro vobis et pro multis, all I can say is there is far more manipulation that goes on with those groups of people than perhaps you are aware of.

            And that is not to take away from the argument, as given all the variables it is a valid and correct argument if you assume the premises involved.

            You just can't see the forest for the trees

            Looks like they hooked you in real good.

            Good luck in life.



            I am not a Catholic, I am an atheistic agnostic.

            But I know of these things and I can tell you that it is only a matter of time before they get you 100%.

            They are already treating you like an incompetent child, you just don't realize it.

            Boiling the frog, turning up the heat little by little.

            Get away before you attach to them too much and the stress becomes far greater if/when you do escape.

            They will break you, oh yes.  I can almost promise you this.

            If you are wealthy, then perhaps not.  If you are poor or medium class, they will break you, use you up like a paper towel, and then throw you away.

  • knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    Project for a new American Century or PNAC for short.
    'There is a struggle playing out on our planet right now between the West and the East for control of the New World Order.' (control of resources).  'We are seeing the start of the East side of it with Russia's incursions into the country of Georgia.' Point of fact the US installed government of Georgia invaded a breakaway, and then
    Russia invaded Georgia, no matter what the media propaganda tells you. Report out today that Cheney's chief of staff was there at the time (no connection of course). It is somebody's fault. It is the US putting missles in Poland, not Russia putting missles in Canada
    and reigniting the Cold War, which could get hot very quick. But hell - great for the military industrial complex
    and the big bad is coming.

  • Make  Money profile image67
    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    You got it knolyourself.  I've read in another article that the president of Georgia is a former zionist.  But Russia still wants to rule the world too.  Please read the Miracle and Prophecies article.  There's a couple of web pages to go to from it.

  • knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    'Please sign this petition to request that the Pope in union with all the Catholic bishops of the world will finally consecrate the ('United States of America') to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.' Sorry my friend, but I think all
    scripture is nonsense. But I loved the book, 'The Da Vinci Code', with all its background on symbolism.

  • Make  Money profile image67
    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    Oh I see Zarm.  The way you were talking in your previous post you had me thinking you were a Catholic and talking with a bit of knowledge.  But I guess not.

    You say "Looks like they hooked you in real good."  But I have been hooked (as you say) since I was baptized at the age of 6 days old. smile  I am a cradle to grave Catholic and proud of it.  Sorry that it troubles you so much.  Well not really.  smile

    You say "But I know of these things and I can tell you that it is only a matter of time before they get you 100%."  But He (Jesus) has already got me 100% and I like it. smile

    Nobody is telling me to do anything Zarm.  I am posting in here on my on accord.

    Now repent of you sins Zarm before it's too late. lol That was a joke because I think it's hopeless.


    1. profile image0
      Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      What is one supposed to look like when one is told what to do?

      Does one have a particular look?

      How is the action supposed to look like?

      What about the person's mannerisms?  Does a tool have a certain look to his face?  What is that supposed to look like?  Do you know?

      Or what is one supposed to post like when one operates under very restrictive guidelines as to what one "should" post?

      Is it supposed to look a certain way?

      As far as knowing what I am talking about, yes I do know what I am talking about.

      And you know nothing about me, which makes your statement nonsensical and very arrogant (as well as smug near the end).

      I am sorry you are so arrogant, as I indeed was raised Catholic and it is YOU who are speaking out of your rear end.  Not only that, I was a Trad for many years and have a very good understanding of Trad things and Trad people, quite a bit, and enough to know that people like Fr Gruner are dangerous individuals who extort their followers (financially, psychologically, and emotionally).  People like Fr Gruner do all those things whilst being wrapped up in their own narcissistic conspiracy theories based off of lunatic Fatima extremism. 

      I am finished posting with you, you are arrogant and full of yourself, no surprise then that you make presumptions about things which you know not (oh the irony), when it comes to my past and a difference in details as large as being a former Catholic or never being Catholic.

      Go worship your piece of bread Christian.

      Get so caught up in the self righteous "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" from people like nick Gruner and other wackos in the Trad movement, you just keep telling yourself your the one who makes the shoulds.  You keep going to your pathetic TLM and supporting an organization (The RCC) that will allow the covert molestation of your children once they get away from your dominance by participating in church activities.

      I will make no bones about my hatred for you from this point forward.

      I will not mask it in smug arrogance as you do, I will put it forth for you to see.

      I will be HONEST about it.

      I intensely dislike you, after all that is what Hate is.  An intense dislike for something, whether it is a food or weather or people or parts or people.  I hate you.

      Oh yeh, and "pro vobis et pro omnibus" is not heretical in any way shape or form..

      I'll ruffle your feathers a bit.

      Go enjoy your TLM, go practice at your Schola, go tell your wife to submit to your mysogonistic patriarchy, go beat and dominate your children.  Chant your Salve Regina and worship your Solemn High Mass AND SHOVE IT!

      Oh wait, I must have been presumptive and gotten a few details wrong about you, right?

      How hypocritical of me (not really).

      Enjoy your hell, for it will get worse, I can promise you that.


      Of course my salvation is a joke to you, you could care less what happens to people like me (eternally or in any other context).

      If you cared about my alleged "salvation" you would never EVER have joked about it, but you did.  Come here and cover your sorry remarks.

      Oops I am not supposed to know what I am talking about.

      Sorry for interrupting your self absorbed reverie about your religious experiences (Not).

      You make your venom out to be the sweetest nectar from the Hand of God (and blame yourself so God doesn't take the fall when you must).

      I make my venom out to be just that.

    2. Mark Knowles profile image57
      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Now this is one of my issues with your cult. "It's hopeless."

      As a non-believer in your cult, this is offensive to me, and probably Zarm also. You either do not know how condescending this sounds, or do not care. And then you go on to say:

      Yet you yourself are provoking that by being so condescending.

      Do you just not understand how condescending it sounds to another's ears to hear you say, "Well, you are a hopeless case, you will never understand what I know to be true." ?

      Especially when you are wrong.........

      I value Zarm's honesty over your condescending attitude any day.

  • Inspirepub profile image73
    Inspirepubposted 15 years ago

    Don't worry, the US will run out of money to support foreign wars pretty soon, the way their currency is dropping. … -Supremacy

  • Make  Money profile image67
    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    Zarm I do not believe "pro vobis et pro omnibus" is heretical either.  He did die on the cross for the salvation of all.  But at this time it certainly looks like "pro vobis et pro multis" is more along the line of what is transpiring.

    Well I don't hate you Zarm.  You sound like you are full of hate.  I'm sorry for that.

    The Hub that Jenny (Inspirepub) just posted falls completely in line with what Father Grunner's Fatima Center has been saying for a couple of years now.


  • knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    Mike - if I may - Zarm is being honest. He feels hate and he admits it. My trouble with Chistianity and western religion in general is that it demands a denial of the natural self. This contradiction of reality is what is suppose to be such salvation and so glorious. I should hate my natural self and call it love.

  • Make  Money profile image67
    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    So condescending?

    If what I post is what I believe then how different am I suppose to post it?  No matter where Christians and atheists or agnostics meet online there is clearly going to be a contradiction in what we believe.

    Who's is more condescending than the trolls that hang out in the religious forums than people that call themselves atheists or agnostics?  In most religious forums or chat rooms online you find atheists or agnostics on the attack.

    If atheists or agnostics claim they do not belong to an organized religion then why do we always see atheists or agnostics in religious forums and chat rooms?

    You never see just one atheists or agnostics on the attack in religious forums and chat rooms so that makes me believe that it could possibly be organized.  The fact that atheists or agnostics are on the attack in most if not all religious forums and chat rooms online looks to me like an "organized religion" which kind of contradicts the thought of you calling yourselves an atheists or agnostics to start with.  I still don't hate you though.


    1. Mark Knowles profile image57
      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Yes. Condescending.

      Well, I don't interact on any other forums, but if you want to believe it is "organized," you go right ahead. If you can believe the stuff you apparently do, this is hardly a stretch.

      Of course you hate me, you have just completely ignored Zarm's and my feelings and completely dismissed what I said. I told you I find it condescending to be spoken to the way you speak, and you are now defending yourself and accusing me of being part of an organized attack on you. Which shows a complete lack of regard for what I said. But I am sure you will say this is showing love. Will you "forgive," me also? lol

      I personally choose to interact on this forum in an effort to disabuse a few of the sort of garbage you spread. And I have a voice here. But I imagine you will come across others who feel the same way as I do - organized religion is a disease that needs to be purged from our system.

      But feel free to ignore everything I have said in favor of your beliefs. That is what I expect you to do.

      It is the christian way.

    2. Misha profile image63
      Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I guess because those forums do not belong to organized religion. They do belong to all forms of religion, or rather spirituality, including agnostics, gnostics, atheists, and any other labeled or not labeled person who cares. At least forums here on Hubpages. smile

  • Make  Money profile image67
    Make Moneyposted 15 years ago

    Well at least it's nice to see that you can admit that you are a troll.

    Don't put words in my mouth Mark.  I don't hate you, I don't hate Zarm and I don't hate anyone.

    So are you trying to say that you hate Christians just because they are Christians?  Or is it just a certain Christian denomination or something like that?  Is this an organized atheist or agnostic belief?  Does this organized atheist or agnostic belief have plans to exterminate all Christians or just certain denominations or something like that?  I must be just a stupid goyum or something like that cause I cannot understand for the life of me why an individual atheist or agnostic that is not suppose to believe in God would want to spend so much time in religious forums.  Are you trying to "save" people from some sort of afterlife or something like that?  But that doesn't make sense either because you are not suppose to believe in an afterlife.  What is it to you what people believe in?  Are you trying to dictate what people should believe or not believe?


    1. Mark Knowles profile image57
      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Hmmmmm. Feel free to quote the part where I admit I am a troll, whatever that is supposed to mean.

      I never said I hate anyone. It is fair to say I despise the organized religion you stand for, and I make no distinction. Catholic, Muslim, Baptist - all the same to me. As I said, if you want to believe there is some sort of organization, go right ahead......

      I am not trying to "save people from an afterlife," because there is none. Only this one. But if you want to think Making Money in this one will some how produce another, also - go right ahead.

      Once again, you have chosen to completely ignore what I have said in favor of your belief system. You feel free to believe whatever you wish. Just don't try and inflict it on me. I was trying to explain to you why you are antagonizing Zarm and at the same time saying how sorry you are that he is full of hate. Yup - Condescending about does it.

      I have said it is offensive to me when you talk to me in the way you do, but I also understand that does not make any difference to you. Why should you care? You are going to heaven and I am not because I will never understand, because I don't believe, therefore I am not worth consideration. lol


      1. profile image0
        Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        In my opinion, if you were trying to "save" anyone from anything Mark, it would be from unsubstantiated illusions.

        Therein lies the difference.

        The X-tians try to save us from hell (which they believe to be an objective reality or a potentially objective reality), whereas we are not trying to save them from an objective reality, we are trying to "save" them from an illusion.

        An illusion does not exist in and of itself, it is dependent on outside sources to maintain itself.

        Whereas a "state of soul" or a "place" (or both), such as Hell, is contended to exist in an of itself (whether you believe in it or not).  So is Heaven (even if theologically somehow no one wound up going to Hell).

        An illusion has no actual weight if you do not believe in it.  It is a mess of largely incoherent nonsense, (like the above two sentence paragraph).

    2. Inspirepub profile image73
      Inspirepubposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I think this illustrates nicely why Christians have such a problem grasping the world-view of non-religious people.

      See how Make Money slid seamlessly from "I hate organised religion" to "I hate YOU", as though the two statements were identical?

      Christians, and religionists in general, IDENTIFY with their religion. They feel that an attack on their religion is an attack on their person. Someone trying to remove their belief in Hell is emotionally equivalent to a chainsaw-wielding maniac trying to remove their left arm.

      Organised religion brainwashes people into believing that they ARE their religion, and would be nothing without it. It teaches that life IS organised religion, and would be empty and meaningless without it. And so on.

      Therefore, religionists find it almost impossible to grasp that atheists and agnostics hold their beliefs so lightly, and don't think of them as parts of themselves, and can easily let go of them either temporarily or permanently if they see good reason to do so.

      If course, some atheists are as fundamentally atheist as religionists are their religion - there are always individual differences. And some people who go to church are not religionists - for example the Anglican bishop we have here who says that belief in the Resurrection is not necessary to be a Christian.

      But that's the struggle for religionists, and I have seen both Make Money and Prophecy Teacher make the same mistake in recent days - we can hate your religion and all the damage it does, without hating you as a person at all. We can hate the fear-mongering and manipulation that you engage in, without hating you for doing it. We understand that you are genuinely misled, and are acting from the best of motives. However, we cannot allow the spreading of fear to go unchallenged.

      Because God is Love, and perfect Love casteth out Fear. If you truly understood that, you would no longer feel the need for fear-mongering.


      1. Make  Money profile image67
        Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        No, no, no Jenny.  Don't try to twist the story.

        This is exactly what Zarm said.

        And this.

        Zarm was clearly is not saying he hated the organized religion that I am a member of.

        He was saying that he hated me personally.

        This all started when Zarm gave me the impression that he was also a Catholic.  I replied figuring that it was a friendly conversation which led to him unleashing with both barrels with a post that included both quotes above.

        I still do not hate Zarm.  I pity him.  But I do not hate him.  You must have an awful life Zarm to be so full of hate.  I feel sorry for you.

        Besides Jenny and Mark an attack on someone's religion is an attack on that person.  You people should learn that.

        If you go back and read any one of my posts you will not find any war mongering what so ever.  That was the initial reason why I posted in this thread, to show that there is a peaceful solution concerning the topic of this thread, as opposed to what Prophet Teacher was saying.  You could possibly twist some things in my posts in this thread to call it fear mongering but if you did that then you would also have to do the same for your latest Hub that you posted on the previous page Jenny.  That is why I said your Hub falls completely in line with what Father Grunner's Fatima Center has been saying for a couple of years now.  We are both just trying to inform.

        Talk about slipping off the topic, the last two pages are not even related to 'Is it a good idea to have a one world government?'  The last two pages are all about non-believers attacking believers.

        Why would you even talk about heaven, hell or any other religious belief if you think they are an illusion?

        How do you know China exists if you have never been there? lol

        Man you guys can sure talk up a storm about something that you don't believe in. lol


        1. profile image0
          Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Nah dude, I don't have an awful life.  I have a good life, I have a nice life.  I will be going to college next semester.

          As far as your pity, it is good to know you can feel that.

          I do hate the Church however, I have not been given a reason not to.  The Church is not the mystical body of Christ man, it is an occultic concept that acts as a sort of fall guy for when people in power in the Church "Bishops" and others do gravely immoral things.

          People, Canonized Saints, The Faithful, they all appeal to the purity of "The Church" as the "Bride of Christ" if evil things happen, but in the end it is an occult concept that takes all the blame.  It poses from the lips of people as a spiritual entity but in reality all it is is a linguistic form of dishonesty whose endgame goal is to keep people tripping over the same root over and over again, and selling their boundaries and very lives more and more.

          There is no Bride of Christ dude, it is in your head.  That is my point.

          Not only your head, but millions of other peoples' heads, and that is why when the Church as represented by it's officials or it's Orders does something wrong person(s) are told "it's all in your head" when they doubt the Church to be a legit organization because of serious and gravely immoral crimes against the bodily, sexual, or psychological integrity of some or all of it's constituency.

          Except that trauma won't lie to you, it makes an honest man out of you.

          It is an illusion man, the whole lot of it.  One big heaping pile of garbage.

          I give the Catholic Church another 600 years and I think it will be gone, like Jupiter and Minerva.  Perhaps it will endure like Zoroastrianism, but I think that is doubtful.

          Holy Slavery to the Virgin Mary will lead to Slavery, but not a sweet sort of slavery that Louis De Montfort talked about.

          I am not going to sit here and speculate about what your chances are or are not of extricating yourself from looneytoons like Fr Gruner and his Fatima Extremist Center, but I will tell you that I think you will be a better man for it if you do.  I also believe in your ability to survive without the "Church" and people like Fr Gruner and his followers.

          If it is any comfort, I do not hate everything about you, I only hate certain parts of you.

          Hate is not black and white (usually), and in my case it is not (as regards you).

          Those parts of you I hate are those beliefs and actions which cause a particular form of smarmy linguistically based misery to those around you and to you yourself.  Dogma causes real problems, and in my opinion you are truly the one who is hurting.

          I will not pity you however as pity is unproductive, in the end it is self serving and only re-enforces the desperate illusion you hold.

          Nay, I will not pity you or pray for you, but I will tell you there is a brighter road if you can get away from that Apocryphal Delusionism that you embrace.

          You don't have to be an egomaniac to do this or want to do this, you just have to be willing to seriously and deeply doubt what you believe and actually practice not believing it (suspending judgment) and examining it to find flaws in it.

          If you want to know the secret to the communists' success?  They took the religious model and guess what?  They spun politics into it.

          So if I doubt the communism of Chairman Mao I am told to doubt, and doubt hard, but I am told there is no sin or transgression against the People of China as long as I struggle with my doubts and resolve them without denying the reality of the doctrines I hold to be true.

          Similarly, if I doubt the teachings of the Church I am told to doubt, and doubt hard, but I am told there is no sin or transgression against the Bride of Christ as long as I struggle with my doubts and resolve them without denying the reality of the doctrines I hold to be sacred and true.

          I have laid it out for you right here man, it is a different format of the same thing the Commies are doing.  Of course, Fr Gruner and his ilk would never tell you that because they cannot.
          Hitler never consciously thought Jews were human and decided to lie anyway, Chairman Mao also never consciously thought Communism was 2nd best and chose to promote it as 1st best anyway.  Both Hitler and Chairman Mao were true believers in their own belief systems.  They believed them even more than their constituency, not less.

          The most consistent liars believe their own lies more than the constituents they are always trying to stay one step ahead of.  They lead by example and in the end they are more deluded and deceived than even their own constituency (which is one of the main reasons they fool so many).

          They appear to be genuine and sincere, but once one gets dogmatically wrapped up into something that is intellectually incoherent (whether it is the inferiority of alternatives to communism or inferiority of jews or the alleged spiritual inferiority of non X-tians), people end up suffering from the effects of that dehumanization.

          It has happened time and time again, and Atheists and Agnostics who are American can usually guard against this same fault by holding to the rights of men and women to believe as they see fit regardless of their own understanding of things.

          It is an American ideal and one that I would die for if I had to.  It is one of the few ideals I hold to.  It is the same ideal that Tom Paine and others held.

          Yes that is right, I would die for that ideal if I had to because I believe in it that much.

          I cannot prove it is superior to other ideals, but I think that it enables people to "get along" in a secular society.  Also, I can tell you that I would die for it if I had to even though I do not believe in "God" or "Spirituality".

          There are a lot of things I do not know, and I find that fact humbling.  However I find the things I do not know to be humbling, I do not find the illusion that I allegedly know "far less than "God"" to be humbling.  I do not find the illusion that I allegedly "don't have all the answers about "God"" to be humbling.

          I will freely admit I do not have all the answers about "God", but neither can other people when faced with such an incoherent statement of occultic knowledge available to those open to a form of "enlightenment" through faith.

          My humility is based in that which I do not know and is still yet to be discovered, it is based on my understanding that I know not a vast great deal more than I know.

          I for one am toying with the idea that perhaps Humans are the conscious expression of our sector of the universe.  This hypothesis is falsifiable as it could be proven false if there were other intelligent sentient forms of life that existed relatively close-by in what we call "our neck of the woods" when it comes to our solar system.

          What is the nature of consciousness?  Hell, I do not know for sure, and there is a great great deal more than the human race's most advanced neuro-biologists have yet to uncover in that area.  There is yet a great deal more that philosophy has to contribute to the subject.

          There could be several answers, one could be that we can do anything we imagine given enough time, resources and technology, and that science is merely the most efficient and technically orientated tool we have in our effort to fulfill our own prophecies (our own technological dreams being made possible because science uses reason which actually makes real results possible).  Another could be that what we imagine actually has a creative effect in other dimensions (as in other beings exist in other dimensions because we imagine them).  No such things can be proven and as such I do not believe these things happen, they are just interesting and curious thoughts that I have about the very nature of reality.

  • Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago


    Sorry if I disappoint you, but I tend to think that "objective reality" is no more real than hell smile Both are illusions, so there is not a big difference between what Mark and MM are doing on a great scale of things I guess. tongue

    I even tend to think that hell is an awfull lot more real for people who believe in it, and they DO go to hell after they die, whatever this means...

    1. profile image0
      Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      That would be kind of difficult to "prove" now wouldn't it?  By definition it would impossible for you to prove (based on your own definitions).

      If objective reality is an illusion, then what exactly are we doing when we measure water in a demarcated glass jar and come to the same conclusion as another person as to the exact amount of water in the same jar?  Is that amount of water indeed present in that jar, or are we just expressing the same opinion on the amount of water that is perceived to be in that jar?  Or perhaps, is our measurement defining the reality of the amount of water in that jar?

      Is that shared subjectivity?

      I am curious as to your response.

      As far as I am concerned objective reality corresponds to the rational common denominator that can be demonstrated, and subjective reality corresponds to the interpretive emotional value we assign to that rationally interpreted common denominator.

      Sometimes this can differ, so two people can eat the same food and one person likes it and the other person not so much, but they are in agreement that the thing in question is food indeed.

      Even if it only has the appearance of food and perhaps might consist of something else, the appearance is agreed upon too.  Yet the taste is more so a matter of preference is it not?

      You seem to tend towards a solipsistic approach, so I would ask you this:

      Are you reasonably certain that at least you exist?

      If yes then:

      Are you reasonably certain that I exist?

      If yes then:

      Is it our interpretation of reality as beings that you base your subjective approach on?  Or is it just your own?

      I am trying to get to the thing at hand.

      If no to "Are you reasonably certain that I exist" then:

      Is existence a very direct experience of reality for you?  How would you define a direct experience of reality?  What does it mean to you? 

      "An illusion does not exist in and of itself, it is dependent on outside sources to maintain itself. "

      What evidence do you have that my keyboard would not exist as a keyboard if my neighbor got run over by a lawnmower and was not there to see it?

      Or what evidence do you have that a person's own keyboard would not exist as a keyboard if he got run over by a lawnmower and the landlord came and collected his stuff?

      How do you know with certainty that things in this universe as we observe them exist in a manner that is only illusion when we try to attribute objective existence to them (the thing itself)?

  • Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago


    I don't have answers. I have questions, but I don't have definite answers. I am not sure I exist, I am not sure you exist, I am not sure the World exists for that matter smile

    When I was driving Jenny to the airport a week or two ago, we were having some talk on similar issues. I don't remember how we came there, but I asked her how come we can't walk through walls. She said we agreed to obey the rules of the game, if one breaks them, it ruins the game for everyone. And I asked - why I can't do it without telling anybody, so nobody knows - and she replied - cause we are the one...

    Does this answer your water question?

    1. profile image0
      Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Not exactly, but it does give me a better picture of how you see things.

      To not be sure that one exists is a pretty interesting speculation.  I would say that I exist, of this I am certain.  I would also say that you exist, but what does this mean?  Does this mean the same thing to you as it does to me?

      Evidently not.

      However we both exist, of that I am quite certain.  It is the manner in which we exist that causes uncertainty for me...

      And uncertainty is good to me.  For instance, what makes up me are properties, so then this raises a new question:

      If an exact replica of my properties could be transferred onto another piece of matter then what would "I" consist of?

      Also, I would not care about what other people thought if indeed it were possible to "break" the rules of the game and walk clear through a wall.

      As far as I can tell, it is indeed not possible, and I have tried various other things like telekinesis with no result that came out as I had imagined it.

      I would say that is because "objective reality" gets in the way, but I do not find there to be any evidence that the psychic restriction and expectations of others gets in the way of me doing absolutely anything at all if I am alone and unhindered and experiencing what is commonly acknowledged to be "good health".

    2. profile image0
      Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I would consider you and Jenny to be "good people".

      By that I would mean the kind of people that if I met I would place significantly more value than ordinary people that I meet just based on your apparent love, friendliness, and emotive and intellectual flexibility.

      The kind of people with whom I could establish lasting friendships with (if indeed feelings of this sort were ever mutual).

      The same goes for Mark.

    3. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I can walk threw a wall!  It hurt a little but there really wasn't much to it.  I was really focusing on the other side and I didn't even see it coming.  LOL.  :

  • Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    Thanks Zarm,

    It is flattering and touchy. You know I am partial to you, too - so this seems to be mutual at least in this case smile

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