Why renounce rule? Is there any wisdom in it?!!!

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49
paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Hi friends

If Cyrus- the Great could attain enlightenment while ruling with justice and serving his people and humanity; why could not Buddha?

Cyrus left a legacy on the art of leadership and decision making, and he attributed his success to "Diversity in counsel, unity in command."[13] Cyrus the Great respected the customs and religions of the lands he conquered.[14] It is said that in universal history, the role of the Achaemenid empire founded by Cyrus lies in its very successful model for centralized administration and establishing a government working to the advantage and profit of its subjects.[8] In fact, the administration of the empire through satraps and the vital principle of forming a government at Pasargadae were the work of Cyrus.[15] Aside from his own nation, Iran, Cyrus also left a lasting legacy on Jewish religion (through his Edict of Restoration), human rights, politics, and military strategy, as well as on both Eastern and Western civilizations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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1. 61
  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You do what you have to do why bother so much about what the Buddha did, again and gain you keep posting this.
  
  Read his Buddha Sutras , a masterpiece and gain some more god knowledge and the higher truths of life..
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I honestly don't understand the obsession with Buddha.
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  49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  I will read it; but first I should know who wrote it. I should be certain that Buddha wrote it and from what source.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Buddha wrote down absolutely nothing, the Suttas were written by his disciples.
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  49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  Then why to read it; if it were not authored by the Buddha.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  For the same reason you read a book that is one, authored by someone no longer alive today, and two, authored by someone known to be illiterate. You must take it on faith that your Qu'ran is the same as the first written Qu'ran, and that someone who was illiterate wrote it.
  
  I take it on faith that the Buddha's disciples persevered the Buddha's message.
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  49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend
  
  If one cannot verify; it is not a must to read it. One should not believe blindly but with reason, experience and verification.
  
  You just make an experience. If we take one generation of 25 years; then it would be about 16 generation since the death of Buddha. The verbal transmission would have exchanged chain of 16 heads at least , if not more. Make five rows of persons whom you trust to be most memorizing; each row having 16 person in it. Then transmit text of passages as long as the pali canon; to the first person in the rows hitherto unknown to them. When the first persons has been given enough time to memorize the text, then he should go to tne next person in the row an transmit it to him; till the message reaches the last person in the row one by one. The last person should write the message. Since there are five rows; you will get five messages. Now see for yourself as to what has happened to the original message.
  
  This would be an experience to rely or not to rely on a message that has reached after four hundred years.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The same can be said of the written word.
  
  You do not own the first original Qu'ran, and it was written many centuries ago. You have absolutely no verification that the Qu'ran you have today is the original. Someone, anyone, at any point in history could have rewritten it for their own purposes. You could be reading nothing more than propaganda. You cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you are not. So your Qu'ran is a waste of time to read by your logic.
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  61
  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Distortion is inevitable in that way you are correct but this holds true for all religions . Maybe the book is still original but the message has been distorted and like I said before I dont think Muhammad has said some passages the Quran.
  Then spiritual books have great depth and misunderstanding it is easy.
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Precisely. No matter how something is communicated there will always be differences in interpretation, and when it comes to things so powerful as scripture, they can be deadly tools in the hands of a person whose only idea is power.
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  61
  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Earlier oral transmission was the most popular way .Read the Buddha Sutras and you will these are not the words of some ordinary person, I prefer it in wisdom to the Quran.
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2. 61
  SiddSinghposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What exactly is your point? Suppose it is ACTUALLY wrong to renounce, then what does that imply?
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  49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend SiddSingh
  
  Buddha is presented by the Buddhists and Buddhism as an ascetic and as a person who did not value the family reltionship; which is absolutely wrong. It is no fault of Buddha; but the fault of
  Buddhists and Buddhism .
  
  The world only need to follow a Buddha who is pro-life, actively involved in the life, cares the family and parents cares his friends; to summarize a normal person.
  
  There is no wisdom in being ascetic and doing wrong to others.
  
  I love Buddha as I do love Zoroaster and Krishna.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  61
  SiddSinghposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What is the source of this nugget of wisdom? Who told you this?
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He told himself this. He's decided who the Buddha was, and that everything we think we know about him is wrong. It's terribly naive.
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  49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  Is enlightenment different than wisdom.
  
  Thanks
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. Enlightenment is the process to wisdom.
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  49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend crmhaske
  
  In that case I believe a higher status for Buddah than the Buddhism or the Buddhist believe. Is that not appropriate?
  
  Thanks
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Buddha never claimed to be anything more than a man. He deserves to be remembered as nothing more than he claimed to be.
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  49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend
  
  Wiseman has man in it. Is it not OK?
  
  Do we have any claims made by Buddha in writing or dictated by him with the reasons?
  
  Thanks
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  paarsurrey we've had this same conversation a dozen times. No matter in how many different ways you ask the question my answer is not going to change.
  
  The Buddha was a great man, who upon realizing what the world was really like beyond his palace's walls endeavoured to do something about it. After many years of seeking knowledge and meditating on what he had learned he found what he felt to be true about the human condition and how to overcome it. He then chose to share that message with others.
  
  He chose not to write anything down because, in my opinion, he was wise enough to realize that as time changed the human condition would to. What was true for him then may not be true 100 years from then. He didn't want people 2000 years from his death to be following the same path blindly without thinking about why for themselves. Unlike most of the religions, he didn't want people to follow him blindly like sheep being led by a shepherd. He wanted people to discover for themselves what was true for them and for the time in which they exist and that is exactly why I am Buddhist, and exactly why I am not Buddhist.
  
  Buddhism was never meant to exist, but given the nature of humans, it was inevitable it would be created.
  
  The Buddha realized that the only constant in life is change, and that our attachment to things in life is what causes our suffering because nothing remains constant. To write down his teachings would be against the core of what Buddha believed.
  
  I'm really sorry that you'll never fully be able to understand that.
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  49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  If Buddha did not want to write anything as you say; then why did the Buddhists compiled the Pali canon against the wishes of the Buddha?
  
  Thanks
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To keep order, and unite the people - the same reason why any religious scripture is written. As I said, after 400 years there would have been great division amoung followers of the Buddha, and so the First Buddha Council came together to unite the factions.
  
  I am not against the writing of the Pali Canon, I am against the blind following of it. I think that religious scripture can be a useful tool in one's progress, but as soon as one follows it word for word blindly, that tool becomes a hindrance.
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  49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend
  
  So the Pali canon was written to frustrate the wisdom of the great Buddha; it is an unauthorized collection; is that you want to say?
  
  Thanks
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That isn't what I said at all paarsurrey. It was written to give order to chaos. The most respected disciples of the Buddha came together and deliberated on what was the most fundamental of the Buddha's teachings, came to an agreement on the Buddha's message, and put it together in the Pali Canon to give direction to the Buddha's followers. So long as it isn't followed blindly, it has a wonderful message, and is a wonderful tool.
  
  It was more than likely a political decision to write it, but why it was written is completely irrelevant. What it is used for is what is relevant. It is used to give direction, and help those less philosophically inclined to find meaning.
  
  One can start climbing a mountain from any point along its base, but the path the most travelled will be the easiest trip up. Some choose to find their own way, and others choose to follow the pack. Neither are wrong. The Pali Canon helped provide a path to those who didn't know how to find one themselves.
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  49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  So the first council cooked something which was not there for certain from Buddha. They rallied against Buddha "in the name of Buddha"; is that you want to say?
  
  The claim and reason on any/every issue must be from Buddha; if the Buddhists and the Buddhism have anything to do with Buddha.
  
  I love Buddha as I love Zoroaster and Krishna
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  paarsurrey, you cannot understand the Buddha because you don't understand the Buddha's message.
  
  Your religion requires surrender, and devotion of its followers. It requires unquestionable faith in Allah. You impose these Islamic ideals on the Buddha, and as such do not comprehend everything he stands for.
  
  The Buddha is not a prophet. The Buddha did not outline a path to enlightenment chizelled in stone. The Buddha did not give laws to his followers. There is no permanent message of the Buddha because nothing is permanent, the Buddha knew that. His eightfold path is open to interpretation because that's exactly what he wanted, for people to interpret it for themselves. What does Right Views mean? That will change as time does, and it will differ from person to person.
  
  All the Buddha asked of his followers was to think for themselves. To find their own way. If the Buddha were alive today he would not be displeased. Life is change, and we must change with it.
  
  But, not everybody will reach this same point I have on their own. Some people need structure, some people need to be told what to do, and that is what religious scripture like the Pali Canon is for. It still preserves the basic message of the Buddha, it is true to what the Buddha said, but to truly transcend the human condition, one has to look beyond it - but that doesn't mean it isn't important.
  
  To understand the Buddha, you have to stop thinking like a Muslim.
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  61
  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are going on a weird tangent paarsurrey. I dont think he ever said my message should never be written down i words.
  
  Tis is the way god works, each master will work in his own way.
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  79
  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You do realise you are talking to usmanali/Squidward Mohit?
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol, Squidward
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  79
  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Squidward is a funny name/character, though this squidward is not a funny person.
  
  A deep hater of dimensions I have never witnessed anywhere else.
  He is also usmanali81
  
  Paranoid, he was hiding from the freemasons as he was trying to convince hubbers they were out to get him!
  One of the craziest sock puppets ever to be on hubpages, I do not know why he is still allowed to post. I thought it was against hubpages TOS to keep coming into the forums with multiple sock puppets.
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Would you care to enlighten me where this "sock puppet" term came from? lol
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  79
  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well as I understand it, a sock puppet is someone hiding behind an identity that has been taken up to spam forums without having any real substance as a person or a real participant. A disposable identity. Against the rules if you use it in this way.
  Some posters use them exclusively for posting on the religious forums, so they can come in as someone else to give support to their arguments. Too common here.
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  61
  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do think the Holy Quran only has Muhammad words in it.You know he was a man of tolerance and some passages are too threating and harsh very unlikely of him to do so.
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The road block is the nature of his religion. It requires complete surrender, and unquestionable devotion. He is such a good Muslim that he can't see anything any differently. His faith requires him to take the Qu'ran for granted. To question the authenticity of any of its words would be blasphemy... which makes explaining any other philosophy to him extraordinarily difficult lol
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  49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend mohitmisra
  
  Muhammad did not author Quran; it is authored by the Creator- God Allah YHWH, and revealed on the heart of Muhammad.
  
  Quran is a symtematic Revelation; if one misunderstand a verse; one should see the context, which consist of at least five preceding and five following verses; with the context one can get a clear understanding. The verses in context hint the other verses related to the verse in question.
  
  One may try it; no harm.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmaid peaceful Muslim
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  61
  SiddSinghposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Great. If it was REVEALED on the heart of Muhammad, WHO actually put PEN to PAPER and wrote the words?
  
  Did Allah converse in Arabic? How are you sure?
  
  You always ask to quote five verse before and after a verse that needs explanation. Do you extend the same courtesy to other religious scriptures? How many Buddhist/Hindu/Christian scriptures have you read that you trash them so authoritatively?
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  79
  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  SiddSingh, it is very hard to make the hate in the bible and quoran look good or go away! The solution? Say it is taken out of context.
  When this idea is put to the test, all you get is more hate verses, but masses of diversions can be bought up to say things like. "Oh that only applied to this situation, or these times, these people!" etc.
  Still can't hide the hate and psychotic crap though!
  
  Religionists have been working on the "out of context" thing furiously since modern man discovered that what was being said is psychotic, and they need to find a way to justify it. smile
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  61
  SiddSinghposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly.
  
  That is what I wanted to say. You see the dichotomy - On one hand, the BOOK is eternal truth, and whatever it says is true for all times to come (that is the refrain).
  
  On the other hand, point out something like some of the verses that you quoted, and you will have people talking about context.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Spot on!
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  49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend SiddSingh
  
  Muhammad did not know how to read and write. When the Creator- God Allah started descending Word of revelation on his heart; Muhammad memorized it by heart. The Creator -God Allah YHWH took the responsiblity for its security and protection.
  
  [75:17] Move not thy tongue with this revelation that thou mayest hasten to preserve it
  [75:18] Surely upon Us rests its collection and its recital.
  [75:19] So when We recite it, then follow thou its recital.
  [75:20] Then upon Us rests the expounding thereof.
  
  http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=12
  
  From Muhammad his companion learnt Quran by heart and from them others; this verbal system continues to our present times. If one wants to verify; one needs to go to any mosque nearby and ask the people there that one wants to meet a Qary or Hafiz of Quran. One could take a printed Arabic Quran with one. The Qari Hafiz would recite Quran verbally ditto as the written one.
  
  Under instruction from the Creator- God Allah YHWH; Muhammad dictated to the scribes; the Word revealed also.
  
  So both written and verbal Quran; supporting on another are secured and protected available at any time.
  
  I welcome all other scriptures to mention the context; it is a common sense that the context fixes the value of a word in a sentence; and value of a sentence can only be ascertained from a passage; so on and so forth.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, you are such a hypocrite. The Qu'ran was passed by the oral tradition just like the Pali Canon, but that's okay only for Islam.
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  49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend crmhaske
  
  1. There was no lapse of four hundred years as is in Pali canon.
  2. The system of learning by heart from mouth to mouth starting from Muhammad downwards exists in case of Quran till our time and the time to come.
  3. The written system also exists; side by side from the time of Muhammad and supports the verbal. Muhammad himself had appointed scribes to write; and he himself used to dictate to the scribes. Buddha did not do it, as you have confirmed; he preferred not to write it.
  4. Did you try the experience I mentioned to you; so that you have an idea of it?
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  .
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  49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend teacher crmhaske
  
  You should have tried the experience; similarly the Hindus , the Jews, the Zoroastrians, the Christians etc; that would give them all a rational insight into their scriptures and their religions; and then they could think of measure as to how their religions or isms should be revived/enlivened from virtually dead being cut off from their truthful founders.
  
  I love Buddha, Krishna , Moses, Zoroaster, Jesus etc
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  0
  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am content in my beliefs, nothing you have said has convinced me to do otherwise.
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  61
  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Each to his own.
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3. 61
  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There is also one story that says Buddha was banished from his kingdom.
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  79
  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I know who should be banished. The sock puppet!
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  61
  SiddSinghposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well he is not going to RENOUNCE the forums anytime soon!
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
Cyrus was a King. He loved to rule.
Buddha was a philosopher. He loved to teach.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
I would just like to ask do you live with another person?
If so they would be ready to jump off a cliff by now usmanali! You go on and on in these forums like a broken record.
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1. 0
  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol, he sure does
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logic,commonsenseposted 14 years ago
Obama will not renounce his rule. We will have to vote him out!
He only thinks he is god!
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dfagerposted 14 years ago
God did not write any of the worlds holy books, they were written by men. When God calls to people, we know His voice. We believe by faith, not by man's authority. Everyone's relationship to God is unique. When we believe, we can submit to the authority of the holy books. But it's not the other way around. The books are not the authority unless we first believe that they are.

People shouldn't try to convert other people, I think we're to love others. We can't love others if we're always trying to impose stuff on them. Love is freeing. Love is seeing.
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skyfireposted 14 years ago
Delusion at it's best.
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SiddSinghposted 14 years ago
Hi friend Parr,

So you mean that since Muhammad was illiterate, he memorized whatever Allah told him?

And then his friend learnt it by rote, and so on it passed. [Obviously Muhammad had a very good memory, in that he memorized an entire book . How many days did Allah take to REVEAL to him?]

Where in this process was PEN put to PAPER, and words written? Who did it?

How can you be so sure that what you have learnt from a written Quran is the same as was REVEALED to Muhammad? DO we have to take your word for it, or do you have any PROOF?

Is it not possible that those who actually wrote put words of their reckoning into it?

Yes, the so called Verbal Quran and Written Quran may be same, but that does not guarantee that either of them is the same as was revealed to Muhammad.
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1. 49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend SiddSingh
  
  One can verify it at any time zone; from Libraries in the world; one won't find any difference. The text of the Quran is the same whatever the denomination.
  
  Seeing is believing.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
  reply report
2. 61
  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The story is an angel revealed these messages to him from god, it wasn't a direct connection with god and Muhammad.
  
  There are editions of the Holy Quran in English so there are different version of it.
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  49
  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend mohitmisra
  
  The original Quran is in Arabic; the translation are done side by side with the Arabic text; so that those who don't know Arabic may understand it. No Muslim considers the translation in any language an alternative to the original in Arabic. So, there are no version of Quran; but version of translation of Quran.
  
  Angels do whatever is told by them to do by the Creator- God Allah YHWH; they cannot change anything on their own.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It makes no difference what language is being used as they can easily be translated.
  
  Muhammad created the Quran, that's why it's in Arabic.
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  SiddSinghposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  NO.
  
  GOD, ALLAH speaks and understands only one language - ARABIC.
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  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  A translation of a spiritual text is extremely difficult ,having great depth translation is bound to lose or misconstrue something and it has happened with the Holy Quran as well.
  
  So Muhammad was not directly in touch with god like the other prophets have been.
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skyfireposted 14 years ago
Really ?
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Rishy Richposted 14 years ago
hmm, after going through a brief study, I found an interesting trait in the ahmadiya muslim's faith system. They have a tendency of merging Two major characters into one. For instance, Jesus was Buddha & then in the second coming, Jesus was Mahdi(the islamic prophesized messiahs) & finally, Mirza Ghulam Azam was both Jesus & Mahdi. Mathematically,

Mirza Ghulam = Jesus = Buddha = Mahdi

Its like Superman = Spiderman = Batman = He-Man

"3 In ONE" - WOW
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