Our National Security in Jeopardy

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   peoplepower73posted 12 years ago

   Should Americans who have put our national security in jeopardy be prosecuted for their actions? This is from the Associated Press:
   "CAIRO - Egypt's general prosecutor has issued arrest warrants for seven Egyptian Coptic Christians and a Florida-based American pastor and referred them to trial on charges linked to an anti-Islam film that has sparked riots across the Muslim world.
   The prosecutor's office says the seven men and one woman, all of whom are believed to be outside of Egypt, are charged with harming national unity, insulting and publicly attacking Islam and spreading false information. The office says they could face the death penalty.
   
   A statement from the prosecutor on Tuesday says Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, an Egyptian Copt living in southern California and believed to be behind the film, is among those charged. So is Florida-based Pastor Terry Jones, who has said he was contacted by the filmmaker to promote the video."
   
   My question is:  Why is it a foreign country can lodge prosecution charges against these people and we can't? Is it because of freedom of speech allowed by the Constitution?

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      Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That pesky constitution always gets in the way of you libs running roughshod over we freedom loving Americans!

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      Reality Bytesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      If I wanted to avoid those pesky little Natural born rights, and wished to live under some form of Sharia law, I would think about relocating to a nation that already has my preferred system of Justice in place!
      
      
      

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      PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither. BF

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      PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      What if you find out it was all financed and coordinated by Zionists? You gonna round up some Jews and make them pay- for what?  It is not a crime to express yourself. That is what human beings do. That is all that is given to them in this life, besides life itself.

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   psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

   Why on earth would we want to prosecute them for thought crimes?

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   Dame Scribeposted 12 years ago

   Once upon a time, even Europe had 'clergy' in power. We've come a long way from that 'environment' with hard lessons learned others still need to 'catch' up we are all going to have our opinions about religion, at home and abroad. It's an opinion and as mentioned, a thought. It's not written in stone but out there to make people think and shouldn't be considered a crime. I'm just glad we live in a more 'forgiving' society.

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   peoplepower73posted 12 years ago

   Just because we have freedom of speech that is guaranteed by the constitution does not give us the moral right to insult another cultures religions.  How would you like it if another culture living in America depicted Jesus as a homosexual, rapist?  They have the constitutional right to do it.  They could also say it was just a thought crime. But with freedom of speech comes a moral responsibilty, especially when it could trigger negative world events that impact our well being.
   
   The muslim world believes they should have freedom from insult of Mohammad and Islam.  When anybody demeans their religion that makes them very angry.  It's easy for us to say to leave the country if we don't like the fact that some insensitive imbecile wants to burn Korans. Or that the constitution gets in the way of the libs running roughshod over we freedom loving Americans.  But our actions have consequences, no matter how minor or how little they seem to be from our stand point. We need empathy to be able to put ourselves in other cultures shoes. The breath of butterfly can change the worlds weather patterns...if you know what I mean.

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      Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The Muslim world would be very wrong to think they have freedom from insult. As a matter of fact they probably could stand to receive more insults.

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         peoplepower73posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Freedom from insult of their religion, not freedom of insult.  That's how they see it.  Can you live with that or would you rather like more world turmoil?

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            Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            My religion is insulted daily. Where is your condemnation of that? If you think its OK to kill people because you or your religion was insulted then your problems are more complicated than I originally thought.

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               peoplepower73posted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I never said it was O.K. to kill people over any religion. I don't think it's O.K. My point is there are some factions of Muslims that think it's O.K. because their interpretation of the Koran says that.  Our constitution give us the right to freedom of speech even against religions in our country, not some one else's country.  The framers of the constitution could not have known of the implications of modern technology, like YouTube and the internet. So if some idiot thinks he or she can make a video demeaning some religion and then broadcast it around the world, they should be mindful of the consequences before they even undertake something that grave.

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                  PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Why would anyone in their right mind trade bogus security by way of coercion for chains? If you allow someone to threaten you so that you desire security and you capitulate to that threat you have set a precedent for more threats. And what have you exchanged for your "protection money"? The chains that accompany your loss of freedom.
                  
                  Next time they will consider it an insult that you want bacon bits on your salad. You gonna beg for your life again? And if its an insult not to deny your own beliefs and join their beliefs? 
                  
                  Any person that is American that would appease injustice and sacrifice freedom is a traitor. There is your treason. Any human being that would appease injustice or capitulate to terrorism and sacrifice basic human rights is traitor to humanity.

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                     peoplepower73posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     The constitution guarantees us all kinds of rights within our country.  However once one uses the internet, for discourse,  they become a citizen of the world.  Just because we have those rights in our country does not give us the right to malign someone else's beliefs in their country or their culture.  There are no laws that prevent this from happening, but common sense should be the rule of the day and we should be responsible and accountable  for our actions.

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                        Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        I'm not a citizen of the world because someone in Australia can read my words on a computer screen. That is the strangest thing I have read today. Get over the propaganda put out by the Obama administration.

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                           peoplepower73posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           So you think it's O.K. to violate the laws of other countries, just because there are no laws against that action in our country? It's more than just words on a a screen.  It's the videos.  Why do you think that video was banned in Muslim countries?

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                              Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              I don't care about the laws in Syria Libya or any other country that doesn't care about my countries laws. What don't you get about them murdering people is wrong? They didn't kill people because of a video they did it on September 11 I know you believe our current liar in chief but you are wrong! Savages kill because they are savages! If you want to get to know them go there and do it. Be sure to let us know how that works out, never mind it will male the news.

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                                 Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 Then you go exercise you're freedom of speech, and you pay for it. Instead of letting other people and other countries suffer because of your inflated sense of self.

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                                    psycheskinnerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    And when they move on to demanding females not expose their bodies, drive, or leave the home unescorted?  Do you cower inside for fear retribution might harm others?
                                    
                                    I don't have to agree with what people do with their freedoms to think they should have them.

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                                       Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       They should have them, but they shouldn't expect others to put their life on the line for them. I'll fight for my freedoms, I wouldn't expect others to, or to carry the can for what I believe is my right.

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                        PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Then you would condemn the people that actually committed violence over people that were exercising their universal human rights. But you are not.  Just the opposite. There is no such thing as freedom to kill for whatever reason suits your fancy. Rights only extend until it impinges another's freedom or in these cases death. When someone insults someone they are not denying them rights. When someone kills that is the ULTIMATE denial of rights. The reason freedom of expression is important is that it allows recourse and defiance against oppression. Oppression like those that would abridge freedom of expression, hello?

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                           peoplepower73posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           So then you think it is O.K. to release a video showing Mohammad being demeaned because you have the right to freedom of expression, no matter what the consequences may be, including the killing of innocent people?

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                              PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              I cannot control irrational psychopathic reactions one way or another.

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                              Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Our freedom of speech was granted by the deaths of many! Mohammed doesn't get a free pass because psychos think he's wonderful.

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                              psycheskinnerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Yes.  Because the people who kill are the murderers and are 100% responsible for the act.
                              
                              Thinking otherwise is playing into their distorted ideology and would not end there.

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            kathleenkatposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            They need to get over it.

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            PhoenixVposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Is that a threat of more terrorism?

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      Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Good evening, PP. You pose an interesting issue.
      
      Actually, you pose a couple of different issues in this thread, each operating on a different level. May I add my own perspective on how to separate them?
      
      First, The Constitution guarantees freedom of speech. Also true, subsequent interpretations have clearly established that this freedom to say anything does not relieve the speaker from the responsibility for their speech. However, you go beyond the protections of The Constitution when you claim “with freedom of speech comes a moral responsibility.” No such “moral responsibility” is implied in The Constitution; only material compensation for real damages resulting from false statements and that excludes things like “pain and suffering.” When applying this Constitutional protection to this particular film, it should be noted that the Prophet Abū al-Qāsim Muhammad has not suffered any material loss as a result of its contents. Nor, for that matter, has any Muslim suffered material loss from it either. For these reasons, I see no justification for including The Constitution in the discussion.
      
      As you examine the “negative world events that impact our well being”, I hope you are considering the widespread anti-American sentiments that have existed long before the film became public. I know of no way to separate and weigh the causes for the emotions on display around the Muslim world or to measure the amount to credit to this film. Most of the sentiments expressed in your posts are highly personal and hardly universal. Such as, “The Muslim world believes they should have freedom from insult of Mohammad and Islam. When anybody demeans their religion that makes them very angry.” There is no such thing as “freedom from insult” in the real world and the manner in which people respond when confronted with insults is, in the end, their own acts and their responsibility.
      
      Thank you again, PP, for provoking some thinking on this subject. We all can benefit from that.
      

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   psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

   I think it is a stupid movie and they are a posse of tosspots.  But I absolutely defend their right to make it.  Morality is a private choice, not a matter of law.

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      habeeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I agree.

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   Dame Scribeposted 12 years ago

   I just think punishing people (or nation) who had nothing to do with the ridiculous actions of ONE person - is just WRONG it makes me question the 'mental' stability of those on the  'murdering' rampage and if their gov't actually 'agree's' with the actions of their people.

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   peoplepower73posted 12 years ago

   You are all absolutely right if you are looking at it from our perspective.  But if you look at it from a Muslim perspective you are wrong.   I have not even read their Koran.  But I have heard interviews from the Muslim perspective and what their values and beliefs are different than ours.  They are a different culture. 
   
   We all know certain factions are looking for an excuse to attack Americans, but why provoke them and give them that excuse, especially when it could affect our national security?  To me, when a group of Americans do something idiotic to affect our national security, it smacks of treason. What if they attack this country and the reason they give for it is that video? Those people who provoked this will be the cause and yet they will still be free.
   
   The best way to conquer your enemy is to know them and what they are about.  it's also a way to create peace.  There is such a thing as moral hazard.  Their is no law for it, but you know when you see it.  The financial meltdown was created by moral hazard and no one went to jail, but we have felt the effects of it.  We all need to be empathetic and place ourselves in their shoes, not our shoes.

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      Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      There is a more effective way to conquer the enemy. More effective and final. That is what THEY think why shouldn't we?

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         peoplepower73posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         So how do you propose doing this?

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            Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Well peoplepower, it ain't by getting to know them.

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   psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

   Having an international perspective is good.  But laws are about bedrock principles, they don't sway in the wind.
   
   Freedom of speech and religion are bedrock principles of America. Something that the nation should be rightly proud of and one of the reasons, as an immigrant, that I am here.
   
   What causes anger and violence in some gives hope and opportunity to others.  And just because we are not burning flags or bombing things doesn't mean our perspective is any less important.

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   JayeWisdomposted 12 years ago

   Peoplepower...You explained my own thinking about this issue in such a reasonable, logical and sane manner that I can't improve on what you wrote.  I only wish people would heed your message. There is so much hatred fueled by misunderstanding of other cultures.
   
   I, too, believe that people who provoke violence are at fault to the extent of treason, since they know in advance they're creating a climate that will jeopardize national security and cause the slaughter of innocent people...but they do not care, as long as they make a "point" and foment more hatred.
   
   I am very concerned about the news reports that a magazine in France is poised to so something similar.

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      peoplepower73posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      JayeWisdom:  Thank you so much.  I thought I was alone in this forum.  I must admit, my position on this does make me uncomfortable, but I still have a gnawing desire to express my views. Morality cannot be legislated, but is one of those human traits that requires common sense to know right from wrong.  There is a price we pay for freedom of speech.  But sometimes no action is the best action a person can take. Knowing the difference is called wisdom. I too am concerned about the news from France.

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         JayeWisdomposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I am often unpopular when airing my opinions because I don't always say or write what the majority (rather, the most vocal majority) espouse.  It's my belief that few Americans think it necessary to try and understand other cultures. There is such a thing as 'national pride', but in the U.S. it's been carried to an extreme.  It's going to come as an enormous surprise to a lot of folks when they wake up one morning and hear on the news that China has replaced the U.S. as the number one world power. (And that's more likely to happen than not--with our help--but that's another soapbox topic!)
         
         I know it's dangerous to generalize, because not everyone in this country shares this lack of empathy, but there are too many who do. It's there in the insistence that Americans should not need to learn any language except English, and we should have a "right" to be accommodated, both by immigrants to these shores and when we visit other countries. We expect and demand that everyone speak English simply because WE do, and our public schools do not mandate becoming bilingual. How egocentric is that?
         
         I've been reading comments at the conclusion of online articles about the embassy riots, and so many responses are, "Just nuke all of the @#$%", or words to that same effect.  I do understand that some of this is the fallout from 9/11, which we still grieve about eleven years later, but that tragedy is even more horrific if its aftermath destroys our humanity.

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    JayeWisdomposted 12 years ago

    I just read this in Forbes online, and the columnist says it well.
    
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/lizadonnell … ight-path/

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