The US officially removed the MKO (people's Mujahedin of Iran) from its blacklist of terrorist organizations. The same ones who recently killed Iranian scientists. The same organization that was trained, that is funded by the US, Israel and Saudi Arabia. The US administration just gave them the authorization to commit act of terrorism in their name against Iran and not be pursued, I guess!
Are we fighting terrorism or are we nourishing it?
Terrorism serves the US government equally well as a scapegoat for its imperialism and a tool to undermine governments that are in their way, for example, Syria, Libya and Iran.
Few people understood it. I am happy to see that the younger generations (like you) are less gullible and more informed! It is also interesting that most of the people that will agree with me are foreigners. What does it mean as for our freedom of speech? Democrats refuse Obama's evil side as if as a young, Afro-American president he couldn't kill innocents around the world!
So did we not use this same group, same ploy at least 30 yrs ago backing Iraq against Iran...Is this not politics as usual...I believe most know, but do not say they we are every bit a terrorist nation as any, right?
Now we have a more realistic view of what the US is doing. It is fair to give to Obama a fair shake of what his administration is. He is as much of a terrorist as Bush was. I am not fooled by his Geithner's inspired economical policy and international neoconservative involvement. If he fooled me for the first election, not for the second! Either he speaks for the people, either he doesn't. His first tenure of the oval office said it all!
I have been trying to post here all day, we had some tremors from an earthquake in nearby Kentucky today, so maybe that is why my computer is freaking out, who knows, but I wil give it another try
Obama has always reminded me of a Republican President as it relates to Foriegn Affairs, although I am a Democrat I am not appalled as most are because I believe the situation in the Mideast will likely explode and I feel safer under a President who has shown strengths in this situation...that being said, I am worried about what happened in Libya and news I have been reading abroad...I can conceive the possibility that our Government and the Obama Administration are doing what must be done with the information available to them. I can also conceive that money and power and the pipeline are the true drivers...What I will not conceive is that the Obama Administration is pure evil and completely different than all others which is the way the right likes to spin this.
As a country we will be much safer with a crippled Iranian economy...we will be safer if we have alliances in the Mideast. If we as a country continue to lose more power, a weaker dollar, a divided country, etc we are sitting ducks for an unheard of before, full on attack, a world war of Muslims and Christians.
Please do not think that I can stomach the thought of what has happened and is happening to the civilians, especially the children, of the Mideastern countries. I pray for peace always. I guess in my older age with so many children of my own, I would rather know we have a strong leader to make decisions I could never make in order to remain free and safe. Selfish? Yes...Wrong? I'm not sure...
None of the mid-east states ever threatened the US until they were destabilised and attacked - for the financial benefit of the US in respect to resources. The need to demonise Islam as the 'enemy' so that the American public can blind themselves to the murders and atrocities carried out in their name, coincided with the aggressive kristian elements in the US and their actions and words - to create the required conditions for terrorism.
It is irrelevant whether Obama is complicit in the continuation of this reprehensible course of foreign policy, he cannot take on the huge US military complex and its super rich suppliers - that is one of the key players in American politics. You are not so far removed from a military dictatorship as you would like to believe.
I honestly do not believe, if they are trying to convince they are failing misserbly, that our "establishment" is trying to demonize muslims...the crew that just lost the election have tried to paint that ugly picture and call Obama a muslim, you see how well that worked...I have always believed we are truly helping some at least, to achieve democracies, but present times are suggesting that democracies are not being built, and ours is hanging by a thread...I can not fathom the complexities of running a government but I do know they all turn gray in 4 years...I also know that Obama is shrinking the military, at least that is part of the plan he has campaigned on, I have always thought we are ruled by coorporations, the guys who own the media...Big Brother...but I do see your point, if indeed we are not helping to establish democracy, free elections, etc and we are just bullying, you are correct that we would be asking for it(terrorism)...but of course if we are attacked, 9/11 we easily come together as a country and therefore without question, follow our leaders (Bush)...I am sure you are right that we are deeper in than my rose colored glasses allow me to see so I can still believe I am free...
I think it is more insidious than rose coloured glasses - the atrocities around the world on your behalf all help to keep you in your current state that may or may not be one of freedom. What is unreasonable is that keeping so many others in a state of poverty or in a warzone only keeps your standard of living a couple of points higher, maybe. For your owners it keeps them in billions of dollars, this is of no benefit that is to you as they use it to control every aspect of life, including trying to buy this last election by putting up a candidate as horrendous as Bush and paying huge sums of money to advertise and fake up reasons why he is better for you. On top of that the wealth is used to fund the disinformation machine of the media so that you don't even have true information to work on when deciding if you are free and what that freedom costs if it exists at all.
It is notable however that a unified Mideast would have a negative impact on the entire world, not just the US. Of course, equality of pwer of all countries would be best if we are severly misinformed of how the civilians of such countries are treated by their governments...
The chances of a unified mid-east are so remote it is beyond consideration. A peaceful and co-operating mid-east can not possibly happen unless the troops that maintain the hostilities are removed and the focus chaged to education and cooperation. This is also the base issue for how their governments treat the people.
The mid-east was divided up by the west to ensure the area remained in tension - by ensuring that these countries contained different racial and religious groupings, the 'coup de gras' was to pop Israel into the centre of it all.
Any unified mid-east, peaceful mideast, or cooperating mid-east would only be of benefit to the whole world in general terms - the only danger to the US would be that, with more free and fair trading around the world, the US would not be able to compete without serious changes to its internal toxic political system and way of life. That this would be to the general benefit of the people of the US may be harder to 'see' is because the rich and super rich own the media and control the collective view. The current situation is only good for them, and they are such a tiny minority that they don't matter.
We are every bit as divided in this country, so if we were the cause of such a sabotage it has come back upon us 10 fold; we are close to destroying ourselves. So I guess they have as good of a chance, if not better, as we ourselves, to be United...I agree with you that the possibility exist that our interest are mostly power and greed, but how much about survival? I am not sure.
I think this is the base of most of the trouble - the American people have been led on a path of war and aggression by a handful of super rich who get their wealth and power from this activity. The lesser rich have no moderating authority and so have robbed you and your economy.
Many people here accuse me of being anti-American - but this is only because I point out the obvious inconsistencies and lies that are clear outside America and its media that is owned by the very people who are robbing you blind and making big bucks from weapons and oil.
What unified Middle East are you talking about? Do you think Saudi and Iran are buddies? They can't stand each other which is why they fight proxy wars right across the region.
If all islamic countries joined under one common purpose, Islam, I know Saudi Arabia is a US "friend," but at the point which money and power do no longer connect the US to Saudi Arabia, or any other for that matter, would not Islam join together?
What you're doing is compiling 'what ifs' to excuse great crimes against non-aggressive nations. What if Sweden suddenly declares war on the whole world? What if Canada invades the US? It's all idle speculation.
You can't base your police on 'what ifs', but what we can do is promote a worldwide agenda of diplomacy above aggression. We have to assume that people respond better to diplomacy and trade better than bombs.
I am much more frightened of a starved and antagonised Iran than I am a free and armed Iran.
Excellent point, you would think that a civilized diplomatic approach would work, but unfortunatley human nature does not allow for such sanity to rule...greed and power will never allow for common sense to lead...
All government have bottom lines they want to meet, our country had this battle in this last debate...Our economy has also been shattered...I guess all ideologies formed in the mind and soul, from all seperate forms of propaganda, through constant barrage of media to be the core of the world wide problem, which therefore not an American issue alone, but a humanity issue. My mind and souls sees a world owned by few, too propagate and divide the many into controllable ideologies in which the wealthy and powerful prosper. Does humanity find the best of itself to change the path or will humanity follow the historical paths of such greed and consumption that our governing bodies become a complete superficial mannerism, as "the powers that be," play out a predestined chess game, winner takes all...
Even with an interfering foreign power in their midsts, Sunni and Shia can't stop fighting each other. If the foreign power just withdrew and left them to get on with it, they'd happily fight among themselves for centuries more and forget all about us. We should be there for trade and diplomacy and should leave our idiot militia at home.
Too merely be left for the powerful to destroy the weak?
Still Europe gathered together and they are all christians. Nobody said anything about it. Muslims countries don't gather because they are muslims but more because they have common interests to protect or promote. Syria, Libya, Iraq were Baath and not theocratic. Turkey is muslim and it is a former Palestine's partner.
We find a way to become a global community; being willfully uninvested would create divide creating a much greater ease for the "powers that be" too divide and conquer
Although I'd refine that last paragraph a bit and say that Obama (or Romney, if he'd won) is *part* of that dictatorship, rather than separate from it.
I doubt if anyone gets to be "leader" of any Western country without having bought into the power structure, whether consciously or not.
What bothers me the most is that the decisions that are made are not for our security but only for personal interests, one to exploit oil or gas, the other to sell weapons. Any international political move doesn't have the objective to protect the US but to threaten our stability. Did Iran, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan attack us? No. So, in what way are they enemies? Because the media said so? I can't agree with their approach and perceptions. It is the reason why I am searching for independent info.
Obama is nothing less than a puppet obeying to the corporations. Where is his famous motto "yes, we can"? Flush down the toilet! I used to think that our presidents were influenced by lobbies but, now, I tend to believe that they are controlled by them hence the difficulty to pass bills.
I may be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, but I do think Obama is different and that is why the right wing, deep pockets and media set out to destroy him...I am not any type of Foriegn Affairs expert, but just a regular small town kinda girl, I would think a banning together of the Mideast would be dangerous for the entire world, not only the US
You can't justify your lack of knowledge by being a small town girl. You have access to the web, to independent news if you wish... I am not a foreign expert neither but with research, information, thinking, questioning you find a truth that people agree upon, our government doesn't aim at our happiness but at the corporation's.
Knowing the explanation of the several events that became part of our history have a more rational meaning that the one given by our media. It belongs to you to select and inform yourself. But to believe that the US lives for us, it is pure illusion and lies.
I do not buy everything the government sells, but nor do I believe we are an evil country hell bent on destroying the world. I believe such evil exists within our country, as well as many of the countries of the world. I am not trying to justify ignorance, I do study, dig, search, try to think with an open mind. I do believe our country has been ransacked by the greedy, power hungry, but I do not believe they have yet won the battle....
Then how do you justify our harassment towards Iran?
IMO, I believe it is the only choice in order to protect Isreal.
Israel has between 75 to 200 nuclear weapons, in what way does it need help? We give them $ 3 billion yearly. If a country doesn't our help, it is former Palestine.
I'm sure all developed countries have enough nukes to blow us all to kingdom come...It is our duty to stand with her...
Why is it that Israel's safety comes before Americans?
We are suppose to care for them as our own people, that's what I believe...
Who is we and who said that we had to protect former Palestine. It has an army, its economy is military oriented like us. Their economy won't be sustainable without their arm dealers. Once again, why do they need us, to maintain their status as the leading power on nuclear weapons? I refuse. Iran has the right and the duty to develop the nuclear weapon for its own sake. Let us not forget that former Palestine is attacking daily Palestine uncolonized territory, that a couple of weeks ago it bombed a factory in Sudan that remained unpunished.
"According to Woodrow Wilson, the ancient Jewish nation provided a model for the American colonists:
Recalling the previous experiences of the colonists in applying the Mosaic Code to the order of their internal life, it is not to be wondered at that the various passages in the Bible that serve to undermine royal authority, stripping the Crown of its cloak of divinity, held up before the pioneer Americans the Hebrew Commonwealth as a model government. In the spirit and essence of our Constitution, the influence of the Hebrew Commonwealth was paramount in that it was not only the highest authority for the principle, "that rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God," but also because it was in itself a divine precedent for a pure democracy, as distinguished from monarchy, aristocracy or any other form of government."
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso … srael.html
These are the beliefs I have always held, the world has changed, but my principles have not...If the principles of Isreal and the US are as you claim, we will know eventually, if we are wrong about Iran, I pray we have learned from Iraq and require more of our leaders than speculation...I do not know enough about Isreal to say what her strategy has become, but standing together is just the right thing to do IMHO, of course...
'As a country we will be much safer with a crippled Iranian economy'
So it is OK to keep a country of around 75 million people on its knees so that you can sleep easier in your bed at night? A country that is composed of families just like yours - mothers, fathers, children, grandparents? Iranian families have just as much right to be able to live prosperous, healthy, long lives as Americans.
How would you feel if you thought that another large power was deliberately crippling the US economy, because they viewed you as a threat?
Isn't it time that we all thought more inclusively about all the nations and people of the world, and pulled together so that every human has a home, work, education and medical care and then the world could become a peaceful place.
I did end that statement by saying that I can't bare the thought of the suffering civilians, especially the children...if we as civilians are misinformed about the closeness of capacity to nuclear weapons in Iran then that is another story...However, it is to my understanding that the crippling sanctions are in place because of the Iranian refusal to stop building nuclear technology...we are also informed that Iran has the goal of blowing Isreal off the map...So, yes, I stand by my statement...Of course I want world peace, but I truly do not see the Iranian Government working towards that end.
It is where the US people should aim - to respect other countries that prosper- and not target them as peril to our well-being because, we, all, know that it is untrue. Since Sept 11, I refused the narrative given by our government and our media concerning the world or more precisely the middle east.
I agree, for respect among countries, It would be nice to see this within our own borders...I watched a special on cspan one night, It was a panel talking about FA, a woman, I can't remember her name, said as a country we should treat other countries as if we were the weakest of governments...I agree with that completely, do unto others, the golden rule, however, we haven't peace within our borders and my guess is that other countries are likened to us in that manner...
Then, do you consider that we are at war within our borders?
I guess we are in a war of sorts, war on women...gay persons...ethnic groups...red vs. blue...But, when Obama won, I believe that was a loud voice to condemn these minority wars, but the red vs. blue is still alive and well...I have worried we might end up in a civil war, might have come close if Romney had won being that his social policies repressed these minorities..
In that case, yes we are at war against the revival of obscurism but you have to acknowledge that our suffering is enviable to the Iranians' or Syrians'.
Of course we seem trivial and ridiculous with our whining as compared to living in a war zone...I guess the higher up the totem pole of Maslowes Heirarchy a person or country achieves, they will ineveidably find more things of which to complain...When Sandy blew through Politicians became people for a few minutes...Some will always want more...
My understanding is that our main purpose in harassing Iran is to convince them not to develop nuclear weapons which would be a threat to Israel and would likely de-stabilize the Middle East.
It is the US official version. Don't tell me that it is yours? It is the Iraqi's weapons of mass destruction syndrome!
This logic applied is equivalent to annoying the hell out of someone with a gun to convince them not to shoot you.
Ralph, the mideast is already completely unstable. The excuse from Israel is that Iran funds Hezbollah, which launches rockets into Israel. IMHO, Obama is attempting to remove Israel's excuse for her inexcusable occupation of Palestine and policies of apartheid against the Palestinians.
I actually don't agree with the sanctions imposed on Iran, Ahmadinejad is no more a nutcase than Netanyahu. Israel has nukes but is not subject to inspections because they refused to sign up to the agreement. Yet, Iran have, and they have not developed their nuclear capabilities beyond what they are permitted. Once again, Israel get away with murder.
However, the Israel lobby is so powerful that even the president of the US is powerless by comparison. I'd still rather see sanctions then bombs, though. Although, I know that the sanctions are crippling for the Iranians.
Hollie, Thank you for your perfectly objective and compelling explanation, I just learned something from you (Now that would be the reason inwhich I joined this site and specifically the forums )....everything you just said makes perfect sense and I am compelled to search out more facts on thiis subject in order to have an objective opinion. I apologize for interrupting your conversation with Ralph, but I had a light bulb moment and just really wanted to share that with you
Iran nearly imploded in 2009. The Iranian youth are largely West-friendly and no lovers of the fundamentalist clerical regime. But, imposed sanctions inevitably bite the people, not the regime. When they bite too hard, as often as not they drive the people back to the regime against the common foreign enemy. Game lost.
Also you need to realise that the Muslim/Christian divide is only for the stupid in both camps. The vast majority have no interest whatever in world dominance through aggression. Besides which, Europe can hardly be described as Christian. Post Christian, maybe.
It's the clowns that say 'if you're not with us you're against us' and the clowns that fall for it, that are the real problem.
If not the Christian/Muslim causation, then why does Iran want to destroy Isreal?
You can't believe that? It is nonsense. It is time for you to open up to the world.
Not me, mate. Tammie was the one who seemed to state that the Iran/Israel tension was a muslim/christian dispute. I think maybe she hadn't noticed that Israel is jewish!
I know it wasn't you. I hardly believe that there are people that still believe that former Palestine is christian.
I am not an expert, but I am not a moron. I know Isreal is Jewish, I also have been raised to believe it is the duty of our country to protect the Holy Land...
Why on earth would it be your duty to protect the 'Holy Land' ?? it never was before !!
There's a difference between the way you were raised and the reality. My parents were conservative, I am a liberal. I allowed myself to go beyond their believes. The Holy land was holy during the crusades 1050-1100 approximately. Since Saladin christians had no more authority over the land. And once, the crusades started not under the false pretext of saving the holy land but because Europe was starving and the middle east was thriving. The gems of then were the oil of today.
I guess the philosophy behind the giving to this cause and this purpose relates us as a country...I'm not sure, but that is my belief...I am a liberal with conservative parents as well...If I give money to a person on the side of the road holding a sign I give for the right reason, but my responsibility ends as I pass it in their hands,, then it is upon them what they use it to do or buy, but the giving is important...it does achieve more than you may assume, the greatest moment I have seen for our culture has been an illusion of peace that was shattered on 9/11 which effectively brought us together as a people, and it's sad to see how we have devolved, or hardened, or lost faith in the structure, maybe a combination of all and its only been a decade...how short are our attention spans?
Tammy, the media make much ado about Iran wanting to wipe Israel of the face of the map. In reality, many scholars and linguists alike have categorically stated that Ahmadinejad made no such comments. In fact, and according to them, those phrases don't even exist in the Persian language.
Hollie, If this is true it makes me wish I had learned other languages when I was younger with a sharper mind...I have took that at face value. always...When I was young, and Reagan "freed," the hostages from Iran; I guess I immediatley formed an opinion on Iran...Propaganda at it's finest I guess, life long...
The actual quote was closer to "Israel's occupation of Palestine must vanish from the pages of time", which is an entirely different proposition.
Tammy, how many people do you know who are fluent in Persian? I know none. We are fed disinformation all the time, all of us. In trying to distinguish what is truth and what is fact (which for the most part is impossible) we, perhaps, need to first dismantle what we have accepted as a given, ie, Iran want to obliterate Israel. Do they really? Did Iraq, or Afghanistan? Were Russia really planning to drop a nuke on the US? If these scenarios are/were false, why are we led to believe these things? Why do the media promote such stories, do they want to frighten us?? If so, why? Who stands to gain, and what is it that they will gain?
I agree, I think there is a point, that if we really dig we will find was the true jumping off point, maybe during Nixon? But somewhere along the way things changed, became more about conquest and power and money...I have believed iran is the enemy my entire life, and then like a light bulb moment, I realize I haven't studied I have accepted what I have been told...I know the media loves to frighten, during the entire Bush era the news had the "terrorist threat level" barometer of colors, "tonight we are at threat level orange." I remember when our "mail," was under speculation of biological warfare from abroad, we were fed heavy doses of fear while we were destroying Iraq and our own economy to boot...
I guess the reason I am an easy target where Isreal is concerned is because I am a Christian and I believe the end battle will likely be the muslim/ christian show down...
Typical 'Christian' perspective, And wholly flawed. Where is your consideration for the growing millions who want nothing to do with fantasy worlds of gods and saviours? We are sick of you playing out your war games at the expense of humanity and reason. Your version of military Christianity is as big a problem as Al Qaeda's version of Islam.
I believe I just said this is WHY it has been easy for me to buy in, But I do not appreciate that you would slam my Faith, I have no problem with anyone wanting to believe in any way or not at all, my faith is between me and God, but please do not discount my faith and I will afford you with the same respect
It is difficult to continue a conversation if you post your answers to your own comments instead of to the comment of the person you are answering.
I'm not 'slamming your faith'. However I am suggesting that enlisting the irreligious and/or moderate world (which means most people, nowadays) in what you perceive as a holy war is both antisocial and arrogant.
American media whips up this demonisation of Islam and 'Christian' America swallows it hook line and sinker. But the media is ultimately owned and controlled by the people who make money out of war - the political/corporate/banking elites. Don't play out their game for them.
I am wondering why we, meaning Hollie, Paraglider, Innersmiff, Recommend... are trying to open up minds with questions that seem so obvious? What do we see that they don't? What do we understand that they don't?
I guess I am the THEY of which you speak, and I am sorry but I have never tried to pretend America is a perfect union, but I will also want for you to realize this is a humanity issue, not an American one...so I guess maybe I am trying to open your eyes to that.
"They" is definitely you and many others that don't see the harsh reality. I don't understand why you don't question your government as I do? Why don't you read more about former Palestine and draw for yourself a more objective picture than the one drawn by our media? As I said it earlier the crusades happened between 1050-1100, in what way the holy land is relevant in 2012? Or you to protect it? What do you see? What am I missing? Tammy, my yes are wide opened and they still will.
Also, if indeed Iranians are trying to break free from their establishment and form a democracy, why are they not revolting? I have never liked the fact we are the police of the world, but have always been taught/brainwashed maybe, to believe out presence in other countries is suppose to be to that end....(Not that I have ever really seen it work)
They did, in 2009, but it was suppressed. It is likely to happen again, but less likely if 'we' demonise the whole country. America can't even police itself and should stop kidding itself that it can police the World.
It is not its objective. It aims at natural resources and the selling of weapons. Time to time it will protect its interests and control recalcitrant regions.
Yes, that much is obvious. But the lie it tells to its own people is that the military interventions are for humanitarian reasons, protecting the oppressed, etc. Most of the rest of the World can see right through it, but US media is controlled and designed to keep the people ignorant.
I think that people want to be blind and ignorant. In 2012, with all the medium of communication at our disposal, it would be an insult to the world to be ignorant of the international events. I would understand if we were in a village in Pakistan or Afghanistan but in the US, it's inconceivable! Which European media isn't controlled? It doesn't mean that the Europeans are duped. There is definitively a problem with the American people.
It's different. Under blatantly authoritarian regimes, news is simply censored. It is made unavailable. Here in Qatar, for example, many Internet sites are simply blocked, replaced with a state banner. In the US, it is available, as you say, but lost in the constant noise of misinformation, scandal, celebrity and trivia. It's a tough nut to crack.
A very good book to read is
The Twilight War: The Secret History of America's Thirty-Year Conflict with Iran
it explains the Iranian Revolution in 1979, Hormuz sea convoys, how US armed both Iraq & Iran in their war together, Oliver North, Ronald Reagan , etc. up to 2012 ( it's a new book)
US has no real/actual long term foreign policy in the ME. Does it change like sand in the wind? Nope - just stupendously FUBAR. For example, Bush41 reneged on his, “good will begets good will,” for the hostages.
http://books.google.com/books?id=V0G9f3 … &dq#v=
A good read that the new movie Argo time setting is.
Thanks, I will read it. As for Argo, I won't go and see movies that demonize other countries and glorify ours (for no reason) like Homeland. I won't be manipulated!
This is really not much different than what happened with Afghanistan during the Gulf War. It's horrible that we haven't learned our lesson...
Yeah, well it incredible the stupid stuff the US did. to the point that complete utter ineptness. Have a good night. (yawn)
one country's terrorist is freedom fighter for another....this are not my words but words of ex president of a sovereign country!!!!!!!!!!!!!...
principals,values etc r of little importance in global politics...usa is known to have created terrorist or backed them since so many years....isnt al queda /taliban consequence of usa's backing fanatics against Russia...
so it is nothing new...
Paraglider, I have not meant to confuse, but when the reply box is no longer part of the link I just try to make it show up below in one line, did not realize that I was suppose to reply in this box, so sorry for the confusion, I haven't been using the forums very long, so I do not yet know all the tricks, I am trying to figure out how to post pics? Anyway, I digress...
I am far from having an arrogant, antisocial opinion because I believe in God. I am also not enlisting anyone else, our governments backing to Israel is something I personally respect. I have no "demonization," towards Islam, from what I have read it sounds a lot like Christianity...I believe this to be the ruse, the battle of the Revelation...I am not asking you to believe that, but I will not change my faith because you disagree? That does not making me antisocial or arrogant anymore than your beliefs make you Anti-American, right? I really do not like labels...
Seems reasonable to me.
As for posting images when you open a new reply look at the bottom right just below the box you write in there will be a little picture of a camera inside a grey circle, click on that then click upload and you can post any photos you have saved on your computer.
Thank you Josak, I have found pics that speak better than 1000's of words, and then couldn't get them to copy over, can't wait to get the chance,lol....
Point taken, but if you do not like labels, don't label the West as Christian and the Middle East as Muslim. The book of Revelation is a very nasty piece of work by a demented, disappointed and bitter old man, written the best part of 2,000 years ago. For me, it is saddening that anyone would look to it for guidance in solving modern socio-political problems.
It is also wholly incomprehensible to me how any Christian can reconcile military adventurism with the teachings in the sermon on the mount.
Israel (not Isreal, by the way) is not a pleasant regime at present. The blockade of Gaza. Illegal expansionism and occupation. Check the facts.
I am with you on this. Palestinian civilians dying isn't a problem as long as the holy land is preserved. Which moral values do hide behind such a precept? Aren't christians human and therefore humane above all? At least when the christians held Jerusalem, they controlled it but now what is their real motivation? Where is the point of a jewish holy land for the christians now? Are they expecting the jews to hand it down?
A great many Jews, in Jerusalem and around the World, dissociate themselves completely from the extremist Zionist regime and their lobbyists in WDC. But they are the moderate majority who don't get heard, any more than the moderate majorities of Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists. . . And as for us Rationalists - we just get branded as dangerous atheists and ignored
Paraglider, I do believe we still have a majority of individuals in this country that associate as Christians, but I in no way have meant to say the entire west is Christian and the entire east is Muslim; but majorities do exist...As far as the book of Revelation, our Government bases absolutley nothing, not wars, not our own society, absolutely nothing on this Book or on the Bible at all for that matter...We believe in Seperation of Church and State in this country, and that is by a majority, which was also reflected in this last election....I was only sharing my beliefs with you
I am not an extremist by any means, my goodness, I am a democrat....I fight for gay marriage and legal abortion, and being that a huge talking point of the Romney Platform was against these social policies, and he his whole tone mixing Religion into politics, is probabaly the most telling reason for his loss...We are not a country of Zealots, we wish to remain true to our Constitution and seperate church and state
i have never heard atheist branded as dangerous before, but I have sure heard them say some nasty things too and about Christians. I watch the Bill Moyer show on occassion....we have very similar political views and he is funny...but when he begins with his sarcastic or degrading humor towards Christians, I turn the channel...I am very live and let live, people choose, but do not appreciate anyone thinking they will take my right to worship and believe as I so choose....
If people believe that an 'end game' war between Christians and Muslims is inevitable, they are more likely to resign themselves to it and even work towards advancing it and winning it by building huge arsenals in military bases around the world.
Arms manufacturers and other profiteers from conflict love staunch believers as they are generally predisposed to believe the worst about the other side and are easily whipped up into warmongering.
Whereas a rational conviction that there are no supernatural forces at work in the World is more likely to lead to a pragmatic working towards peace.
I understand you point, yet again, our Country, in no way, designs wars or anything else from the Bible...I also must point out that the "end war" being a Muslim/ Christian war is in my opinion, not the western opinion...Your last statement I can't touch without bias so I will only say that indifference is not the same as tolerance...
It's a good thing that the Founding Fathers were Masons and not fundamentalist Christians who do believe that the 1948 Israel will bring the second coming of Christ. It's called Christian Zionism.
Officially at least, you have separation of church and state. However you also have a very vocal Christian right wing who would like to change that. They are dangerous. I'm well aware that the military adventurism that the US has engaged in is not driven by biblical prophecy. Nevertheless, the unthinking Christian right are easily persuaded that these wars are defending 'the faith' against Islam. Whereas they are really all about oil and profit.
I agree with you 100%, and the far right wing loonies just lost the election...
Tammy, many politicians will say that 'as Christians' they are duty bound to intervene when a 'perceived' atrocity takes place in another country. They are attempting to influence those of faith in order to justify THEIR warmongering behaviour.
The media bombards the populace with images of horrific acts committed by those of other faiths, namely Muslims. This is by design not accident. If you think about it, it's like Islamist extremists bombarding their populace with images of the nut who burned the Koran. Then attempting to convince the viewer that this is mainstream America and how they ALL behave. It's an attempt to demonise, and it's more effective when inflicted on those of a particular religion, because using ones religion can cause great offence. It's a very old, yet very effective, divide and rule strategy.
Warmongerers need popular support. They need you to believe that they HAVE to invade other countries to protect YOU at home.
Tammy you can't expect the truth to come from other people. Maybe it is time for you to spread your wings and search for independent news source like most of the people who answered you.
I have searched through some and did learn quite a bit, I only can see the lean on American sites however, so I am not sure of the propaganda from other cultures, but I do try...I read one from you as a matter of fact:) I believe it was French, but had an English tab, that was the first I had heard about the pipe line...I just learned today that google had been complaining of the attempts of the US to take down center sites, so yes that says a lot about the Big Brother, 1984 society I have seen coming a mile away...convincing people in this America bubble that we are "rich", Capitalism at it's ugliest...I am truly trying to learn more, I want to be informed, And I appreciate such a relevant and interesting forum I have ever been in and I have learned much, from all of you..thank you
Hollie, Do you think that Obama's plan to shrink the Military says something? I may be biased but somehow he seems different to me, more genuin, his policies are kind and take time to grow, but I believe they will work...Do you see this about Obama?
Tammy, I've become so cynical that I cannot trust any politician. However, I also believe that actions speak louder than words. I don't so much watch what the POTUS is doing, but what the MIC and the global elites are up to.
They poured money into both campaigns, but one far more than the other. Why? Were they hedging their bets? I don't believe they were, money makes puppets- a politician with copious amounts of money behind him is far more likely to be successful and represent their interests. It appears that O is not quite the politician that they want, and irrespective of the red necks, I don't believe it's because he's black. He's just not compliant enough.
His rather 'fractious' relationship with Netanyahu is well documented, and he's certainly not liked by the bankers, despite the bailout. Regulation's not their thing is it?
Who pays, that's the question- do the affluent pay their fair share of taxes, or does the MIC (don't they have some connection with Israel?) pay? Who pays, that is the question.
O's a game player, IMHO, but I don't believe he's playing games with the people. But that's just my opinion. Further reading will lead you to yours.
Hollie, I have noticed the ploy myself...I did soooo much research on Potus and found numbers, graphs, data, to support my beliefs of his policies..I have researched The treasury web site of full disclosure of the bailouts and the spread sheets of each and every penny...I have used the Bureau of Labor and Statistics extensively...I have watched the effects of his policy, I have learned a lot about the healthcare act and I think personally that Obamacare was an amazing accomplishment...I do think he is outside of both parties, which makes me like him more
Tammy, keep reading and keep researching. It's so refreshing when an individual admits that they want to learn more, and when they acknowledge that they have been fooled in the past, as we all have at some point or another.
The reality for me, is that the world contains lots of good people, but also some very greedy, narcissistic ones. What you and I might find a shocking and despicable way to treat people, is another mans profit and power. So don't always judge people in power by your own standards, they may let you down. I don't believe that O is narcissistic or greedy, but a man walking a tightrope. He's made some powerful enemies, don't ever underestimate what they are capable of. But everything that I have said is PURELY based on opinion, my opinion. You follow your instincts.
If I recall well few weeks ago, I gave Tammy a thread leading her to an independent source of information. What did she retain from it? It is one thing to read links and another to be ready to question oneself and one's believes.
Hollie - That's a very accurate summary of the cynical manipulation that's going on all the time. It works particularly well where education is low standard or lacking, as in Afghanistan. And that's something we all need to be very careful of. The manipulators are also proponents of the dumbed down society - so much easier to manipulate than a well informed populace.
Tammy - I apologise for underestimating you earlier in the thread. I see from your responses this morning (our time zones are probably 10 hours apart) that you are seriously digging for the truth after all.
Thank you, Paraglider.
The thing is, that kind of manipulation is not just the tool in the US or the mideast. There's been studies evaluating protests in the Uk: Conclusion; The majority of UK protesters are educated to first degree level and beyond. Those who protest here have higher levels of education,with the exception of some trade union members. However, the trade union members, on the whole, protest when living or working conditions are threatened. Culture of contentment? As was?
Now, the coalition is making it increasingly difficult for young people to access further and higher education. Loss of EMA, huge hike in student debt. I'm not saying that further and higher education is the only route to learning, but it's definitely a way to access skills for critical evaluation and a way to access reading material that otherwise would not be available. The new, albeit old, way to dumb down a nation?
I absolutely agree that this is happening in UK too. In fact, UK tends to be influenced by US more than other European countries, obviously because of the common language.
I am out of the country for 11 months per year, so slightly out of touch, no doubt. But I didn't miss the incredible statistic that the cost of tertiary education has trebled over a very short period.
That's really going to help the less well heeled...
Max, that link is not from the bible or a religious book?
Not quite. If Obama was powerless, we would already be bombing Iran back to the stone age. Hear their furious that we are not.
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