Right next to America lies Mexico , a nation that should be a friend of ours , and yet they torture a Marine in Prison for 214 days , without the help of the President of The United States , the free world , the most powerful nation in the America's, . What is wrong with this picture ?
Oh yes the big bad US can demand anything it wants against all foreign legal government precedents. We should have our citizens exonerated because we just so happen to have one of our hero's jailed? That is about as arrogant as it gets. He is loose now but that is not good enough. It worked out in the long run but that was not expedient enough for who we claim is innocent? How about Amanda Knox? Are we going to give her back to face her second conviction even though we have double indemnity statutes? How does that make it fair for the victim she is accused of killing? This is hypocrisy in its' truest form.
Not necessarily Rhamson , Listen , Mexicans cross our border by the tens of thousands every day , some not doubt even armed , many committed and commit horrible crimes every day , yet a marine crosses into Mexico by admittedly a mistake ? No my friend , the hypocrite is the Mexican government , and the Obama administration , are you too as unappreciative of our American veterans as Obama and mexico are ?
Your response is just the same. "Because he is a veteran" doesn't make any difference if he broke a law. The Mexicans can do what they wish in their country and we can do (or not do) as we wish in ours. And oh yes it must be the Obama Boogeyman who is at fault for this guy losing his way and getting caught with weapons in his truck. And the Obama Boogeyman should have threatened to cut off diplomatic relations with Mexico and got Seal Team 6 to go in and extract him. The law is supposed to be no respecter of station when it comes to breaking and prosecuting the law. So why is it any different for him. The illegal immigrant situation and the US response is no excuse for ignorance of the law.
He dropped the ball. He should of done something. To busy playing golf?
Is the marine still being held captive? I have not heard about this story. On what charges is he being held? Has our gov. made any statements about this?
Rhamson ,Once again it is the naiveté' of those who are unconcerned with the politics involved in how Americans are treated poorly by other countries in spite of the greater good that we do , even from our neighbor . How is it okay that we are totally disrespected by Mexico constantly and yet that same treatment would never come from America . In America every criminal has more rights than you and I do ! We will let the illegal immigrant out onto the street to walk , but mexico won't release a decorated veteran for making a wrong turn ! And !, leave it to a liberal to think that quite automatically, guilt comes to a gun owner !
That's a good one. I guess my naivete can only be out done by your arrogance. Why don't we just throw away the laws and make way for the greater good Americans to go scott free because we treat their criminals better than they do. Your argument is ridiculous based on your logic. What exacerbates your argument further is the knee jerk "liberals" comment. I happen to support gun rights. But I guess you assumed that was part of the deal when even suggesting that people should be exonerated based on "WHO" they are and not what they have done.
Because, generally speaking , liberals all support the same rhetoric and yes gentlemen , there is a greater good , Once most Americans believed that , now however there is a wave of self servitude in idealist political beliefs where you are either politically correct in your dissention or you're just plain collectively ,wrong . This situation with this one Marine should have been dealt with quickly and decisively , it however became an issue for political messege to e the military , his " red headed step child " , in other words ,"I don't care about the military "! Otherwise - you tell me , Why did it take soo long ?
What if the guy arrested in Mexico under the same conditions was a son of a Senator, or perhaps a minister, or maybe the wife of a mayor? Do they have any less credibility? Your argument wishes to supersede the law. You ask me why he was held so long and then claim a liberal slant to the question is ridiculous. Beating your chest and stating he was an American Hero is why he should just be streamlined and let scott free without due process is plain arrogant. Now I agree that Mexican justice is rangy as hell but that is where this guy happened to be. Maybe on his next outing of getting lost he might want to try Moose hunting near Canada where the government is a little more accommodating.
As far as the greater good maybe you should read up on Americas track record of overthrowing foreign sovereign governments and installing dictators to our liking. Or, maybe the spying on it's own citizens etc. There was a time when we thought we did do things for the greater good but in some instances the wool was pulled over our eyes while the less than savory skullduggery was implemented in the background.
I can't help feeling that had it been a Mexican serviceman held in a US prison ahorseback would be enraged that the serviceman had been released.
I will never understand why first , some think it necessary to apologize for being a super -power , that's what super -powers do guys , they influence the rest of the world , economically , militarily , politically , and in all forms of human rights . At least in it's influences towards the greater good ! Accept it guys , America has done far more good than not , no apology ! And No John, America doesn't seem to want to hold ANY Mexican in our prisons !
Perhaps we could have traded a few more gitmo prisoners for this one guy in a Mexican jail ! Hell, then we could really close the place . President Obama has taught us all a new and enlightened political message - what's good for an enemy must be good for us all !
Oops, I think you slipped on the banana peel that is reality and responded in the context of the real world we live in, and not the "I'm so sorry" Kumbahya world that many think we should base our beliefs and behavior on.
I agree with you.
GA, I am surprised, there is a lot more crimson in your reply to ahorseback than I would have expected.
The truth of reality doesn't have a color.
I think the comment I responded to reflects the reality of the world we live in. It may not be the one some may aspire to, but I do think it was an accurate statement of the world we live in.
I also strongly agree with the "No, apologies" aspect - in the context of a bottom-line evaluation. Even though we do have, (I think), past behaviors and actions that should be deeply regretted, and sincerely atoned for, (yes, that could include apologies to the victims), overall, I think the U.S. has done far more good in the world than we have done harm.
I grabbed this quote from a previous response of yours;
"Influencing others with a superpower status is not to be interpreted as dominating others. "
Exactly! I agree. And my endorsement of ahorseback's statement was made with the context of your quote as an assumption. I guess I should have been more clear.
Why past behaviours and actions? Why exclude current ones?
Outside of physics, in the realm of most everything else, reality is relative. It depends upon from what point of view you are looking at it from. I may well have a world view that is different from yours, the "speak softly and carry a big stick" stuff went out with Teddy
Roosevelt, part of an American century in another geo-political reality. But staying on topic, do you really believe that ahorseback's view regarding how the U.S. government reacts to Mexico holding our Marine was the right one, kumbaya aside.... Why would MEXICO give consideration based on the information that the Marine is an American hero? Are we not obligated to respect laws of other countries, even if they are inconsistent with ours?
Com'on Credence2, you know better than that. Just because I agree Brussels Sprouts are healthy doesn't mean I like them.
So no, as a general concept I do not agree with ahorseback's premise about the Marine situation.
But, if the actual events are as our media has portrayed them...
IF... it truly was a wrong turn mistake, and
IF... the Marine really did try to inform the guards about his mistake, and the weapons, - before - the guards found them, and
IF... Mexico was using him as a political pawn...
Then I see no harm or hypocrisy if our Ambassador leans on them to secure his release.
But, IF, none of the above is true... then we have to respect their laws as we expect them to respect ours. Clear enough?
On the other hand... "speak softly, but carry a big stick" has not, and will never go out - as long as there are bad guys in the world.
In the world's eyes, our "speak softly" must be our national integrity, (I know, we need to work on that), and our "big stick" must be our national conviction and strength - because bad guys only respect strength, and only then if they know you have the conviction to use it.
That is the reality I see.
I don't argue that you influence the rest of the world economically, militarily politically and in all forms of human rights. I argue that it is not for the greater good of the rest of the world but for just the US corporations..
You conservatives continue to astound me. Superpower does not mean 'bully', but setting a positive example for others to follow. It does not mean do as I say, not as I do. Every nation has its own set of sovereign laws, this Marine is not the exception to laws that apply in Mexico no more than someone from Mexico who violates our law is an exception. It is an easy concept, why is it so hard to understand? He was released, but is foolish to be toting an arsenal so close to the border with clear and present danger at hand. We talk about rule of law, isn't that the ideal for every nation? Your attitude is the basis of colonialism and imperialism claims by our adversaries and often times, our friends around the world. What good America does or does not do is irrelevant to the argument here. Influencing others with a superpower status is not to be interpreted as dominating others. That is where right wingers and their foreign policy views are wrong 99 percent of the time.
Ridiculous ? No too close to the truth ? Perhaps , at least think about it !
Still ridiculous no matter how you present it. Have you ever lived outside the country for any period of time? I am not talking about with the military or foreign service.as that is a totally different experience?
Frankly, if you think that everybody either aspires to live the "American Dream" or ought to be made to do so is a lot more than a little ridiculous.
Ah ,How to respond to the naiveté' born and bred in so many peoples peacetime experiences , 9/11 isn't enough , watching the middle east day to day isn't enough , or viewing the everyday lives of those in the torn up - wartime strife aren't enough ! Too many people are imbedded in the idealistic tie -dye , anti- war - and ivory tower trained mentality to understand that much of this world, politically speaking , despise everything about the free world ! Mexico ?---- Nice to live under the wing of the eagle and shit in it's pocket huh ?Maybe we can finagle a little foreign aid by kidnapping innocent tourists. Pure and simple !
Utopia , right there next you gentlemen , whether you truly appreciate it or not !
Free to live comfortable lives in relative peace
Free to pursue any kind of political freedom you wish
Free to be educated even beyond common sense
Free to idealize your political beliefs
Free to watch your offspring succeed in life
And all of it at someone else's expense
Free to not be imprisoned against your will
Like this very Marine that this entire administration seemed to forget about !
You should read the book "The Ugly American". You might be surprised by it.
rhamson , I will one day ! Thank you , yet who would deny that yes , even America is capable of stupidity in foreign policy , America ,the newest and one of probably the last old school super-powers . There is not a doubt that given our history AND that of the worlds , England , France , Germany , China on and on , that we should have failed foreign policies of our own , and also given that many "good intentions " often are culturally misconstrued ,by even those that benefit from them the most , look at southeast Asia's free capitalist' trade success , or perhaps even the energy riches or treasures of the middle east , no matter how THEY chose to spend them , their treasures certainly originate ,generally , from the western world .. Personally , I'm more for a politically isolationist future in America yet we both know that's impossible in todays world . So what do we do now ? Go on an apology tour in our present , past and future foreign policy , I think not !
It is funny you should mention isolationism as that is what I am promoting with regards to our meddling in other countries politics. No apology needed let's just butt out.
Why do you feel that the "American dream" is not only superior to all other dreams but should be aspired to by all, even those who think that their dream is superior?
John I don't feel the way you assume I do , But I make no apologies for being a proud part of who or what America is ! Nor will I concede that somehow America has more to apologize for than any other political power ! I listen as many Americans say "I love my country but hate my governments actions" and also feel that same way at times . But one thing I cannot stand is to listen as this sub-culture of liberal idealist ,supposedly educated world apologist's annoyingly accuses us of somehow colonizing the world , after all, that was your countries foreign policy not ours. If one believes that any nation can stand -by and not be pro-actively involved in the rest of the worlds politics' , military actions or economies , then you sir are naïve .
well, I guess that applies to Putin, PRoC and everybody else that feels it has a legitimate stake in its neighbor's affairs.
Putin makes the same claim as a world power as does China. So how is it all different?
So because we once colonised the world you can't possibly be making the same mistake. And you accuse me of being naive!
I'm sorry for annoying you by pointing out that you are colonising the world, but annoying or not, you are.
You are exercising political control over much of the world and that is colonisation.
You are exercising cultural control over much of the world, and that is colonisation.
You are appropriating parts of other countries for your own use and that is colonisation.
I do believe that any nation can stand by and not become pro-actively involved in the rest of the worlds politics, military actions and economics. Do you actually understand what "pro-active" means?
Right John , A nation , especially a responsible super power ," can stand by " and do nothing . Do you mean like stand by and let someone else assume responsibility for watching over the rest of the worlds peace and prosperity , the world's health and wellness , disease's, wars , the chances of biological outbreaks , of nuclear proliferation , Do you mean to "stand by " and watch as rouge political junkies like Saddam's invasion of places like Kuwait , or as the little Hitlers of the middle east rocket each others civilians by the hour , Do you mean" stand by " and watch as Sudanese children are raped and driven from their grass huts as everyone watches and does nothing ? I guess, John that "Standing by " just isn't the American way of being !
Here's some advice John Holden , you can "stand by "and watch from Camelot and I will support the "Colonization" of the world , as long as that colonization includes feeding the hungry , taming the Saddam's , the Bin-Laden's , the Hitlers of the world , as long as it includes participating in world peace , as long as the threat of Ebola or aids is possibly annihilated , John , if it's the hypocritical apologists like yourself that will always stand by and criticize while you watch someone else be the one to step up to the plate and be the leader , then I will always be the "colonializer".
As I thought, you do not understand the meaning of "pro-active". Not being pro-active is not standing back and doing nothing.
It isn't precipitating events. Being pro-active is getting your defence in first, not reacting.
BTW, feeding the hungry! That would be a very good idea. When do you start?
Not everybody wants to be led. Why are we the world police? Other nations may have a different view world activities and events than we do, what about their voices and their prerogatives? Your reasoning has not been sound throughout this forum
John don't you really mean that your nation is passive aggressive and not pro-active in domination of other regions , lets face it the media focus' on American policies has been super-focused for years , everyone loves to hate the big -guy ! Again yes!, " Headline "-America is a bully , but every other superpower is "pro -active ",right ! Kind of riding your" high horse " again aren't you John ?
My reasoning ,Credence , how old are you eighteen, no not everyone wants to be led ,not Saddam , not Noriega , not Bin-Laden , ? I didn't create the United Nations ,that which amounts to nothing and costs the US so much ! Nor the league of nations which accomplished little else , Wasn't me that created the coalitions forces that failed to follow through on much of any monetary contributions , promises or protections during our "allied" war on terror , , Somehow , among other things , America has become everyone's protector , big brother , every other countries navy , armed protector , air-force , and in doing so , become every other nations interest free checking account . No I don't like being led either , in fact I believe Americans are being "led " around by the nose when it comes to the higher costs of peace and stability in the world.. At least John Holden partially understands his own term "pro-active" !
What is the connection between Saddam Hussein, Manuel Noriega and Osama Bin Laden?
Answer, they all enjoyed USA support.
You still fail to understand pro-active.
How does one nation dominating the world scene solve the problem? Eventually the gang will join resources to bring down any bully. The League of Nations and the UN is the right idea, global problems solved in consensus instead of this Pax American-neoconservative stuff the right always spouts off about. Since we are just one nation, we have to work with others to insure the peace. What is it that eludes you rightwing types about this basic concept?
Look, I neither desire to be nor can I afford to be everybody's protector. It is a fool's errand that drains the treasury and diverts resources from more pressing domestic concerns.
When you colonise and exploit the resources of the colonised nation being everybody's "protector" is rather profitable.
Americans enjoy a strong , diverse , all encompassing and vibrant economy that which is intricately woven into a lot of other country's success as well !, . But here's the kicker , so does the rest of the free world enjoy much of our economic overflow and personal gain as well ! So yes , given that all of our needs for natural resources , oil , minerals , precious metals etc. is strong . Let's simply blame America for all economic "colonialism " , after all , we are the only benefactors , right ?
If you so chose John Holden then go ahead , however it isn't to the call of America itself that beckons the worlds attention . No , it is the free media that centers itself at ground zero of what ever America does , and why ? Because we have the most open book in the world of media , not just free media but controlled media too ! We have the most open form and forum of government as well , This is exactly why all forms of media , especially this hyper liberal ,cyber media , centers its attentions here !
Dream on! The media and politics have never been more controlled in the countries history. What America are you talking about?
Free media! You must be joking, I've seen the American news media and it is anything but free, it is the most loaded and biased outside soviet Russia.
When I say "free media " that doesn't mean ethically pore John , It simply means open and completely vocal ! Much like a bunch of babbling idiots is more likely the definition , however , our form of government is one of the most open in the world ! Everyone knows our business ,so to speak!
Read the book Bias by Bernie Goldberg and get back to us on that last statement. He relates his experiences with CBS News and that "openness" and "freedom" you were talking about.
I don't understand "ethically pore" but not withstanding that can you really describe biased media as open?
Assuming that you mean "ethically poor" then I would say that truly free media would be ethically rich!
And how do you know that your form of government is one of the most open in the world when you have media that almost invariably follows the government line?
John, North American media sources are extremely vocal , open , nothing is secret or sacred , extremely un-ethical as they may be , at least there isn't much chance of a conspired secrecy or government control here . Biased as it may be -on both sides of political aisle, they can't wait to spew forth any newsworthy story or view if you will. Media here doesn't begin to "follow the government lines" , media is our governments worse critic . They do NOT follow government lines !
Once , we had something called "accuracy in the media ", long since disappeared however !
Openness in media , however tilted the accuracy, it's still better to have an open clumsy slanted biased media than the one that follows the very will of it's government completely . Look at eastern Europe's, the former Soviet's, they are there but might as well not be . The US. media "air's its underwear" for all the world to see , but at least we air it ! Try that in China , Moscow , Madrid !
That was a sudden change of topic, or are you just demonstrating the lack of news coverage in the USA?
Besides the under reporting and much unknown inner workings of the agreement that has been omitted from the news the "free" trade has only enriched the top 1% while devastating the working class in America. The agreements were the workings of the get rich quick parts of our society while robbng the middle class and poor of their abilities to maintain their lifestyle let alone move ahead. Get your head out of the sand man. Watch and read other sources to get the whole picture rather than what is comfortable for you to digest. This country is going to hell while you paint the rosy picture of patriotism and pride. You my friend have not only tasted and swallowed the snake oil but have digested it as well. Open your eyes!
To describe TTIP as free trade is an abomination. It is about as far away from free trade as it is possible to get.
Worse even than the damage to free trade is the damage to democracy. It takes all power away from the people via their government and places it in the hands of the corporations.
John the most obvious problem in our media is actually who reads it , how "well read " one is . There is no lack of coverage ! Only lack of reading skills !
And who is encouraging your population not to read and not to think?
I'll answer that for you, media.
I disagree John, I believe we as a people are "dumbing down " , and you know what ? We're doing it all by ourselves !
But why are we dumbing down?
You don't think it is helped by media looking for more and more ways to fill more and more TV channels at less and less cost?
You don't think it has anything to do with us being conditioned to expect and accept news in sound bites?
Actually Jeffy , there is oil in Mexico , I don't know that it's a lot however , The real point is , how does Mexico utilize it's resources and potential economic gains from them ? More to the point , Mexico has a corruptive and economically exploitive culture and government ! In other words , no leadership ability , and no socio- economic gains from that resource !
Sure it does John , but ! We are dumbing down , the western culture has an attention span of about fourteen seconds , for anything . That's not the media "industry's" fault . That's your fault and mine ! The average American doesn't know their Governors name , who represents them in congress or where the capital of New York is . I should say that's America's number one fault !
I think you're right there , nor does the media seem to realize that ! The "vast silent majority " syndrome perhaps ? Unfortunately , voter and media apathy is a huge plague here .
As it is here! More people cast their votes for reality shows than for their government representatives.
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