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How to understand Immigration beyond the lies and misconceprions

  1. mio cid profile image64
    mio cidposted 2 years ago

    The Immigration issue will have to be confronted sooner or later.The millions of illegals living in the country today will not be deported.Will the Republican party double down on its current image as a party of xenophobes and racists?

    1. GA Anderson profile image83
      GA Andersonposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Are you saying the Repubs are xenophobes and racists because they want our nation's current immigration laws enforced?  Or because you don't think they have any compassion in their hearts for the lawbreakers that are just trying to better their lot in life?

      It appears that your position is that judgement of the motivation to break a law is a more important consideration than the actual breaking of the law. Or perhaps you are an advocate of the "Ollie Ollie Home Free!" game rule where if you get away with it first, then you can't be penalized when caught.

      Or perhaps, you are an Open-borders, "come one, come all" advocate?

      Or maybe I just don't understand what you mean at all... just why do you think the Repubs are xenophobes and racists?

      GA

    2. ahorseback profile image47
      ahorsebackposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Your statement alone  already contains  bias , As a conservative  and an open minded man  , I understand  the eventual need to  better  control immigration in general , for all countries !. Yet liberal  and liberal agenda-ed thought  control  in America would have one believe that any control of immigration at all , is a bad thing .  First , Lets obey and enforce  the existing laws !  Second educated those like the OP here in that immigration control is a necessary  part of national security, for ANY country .   Third  and mostly , show respect and  appreciation to those who DO wait in lines to do it legally !  All these for starters !

      1. rhamson profile image77
        rhamsonposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        This has nothing to do with liberal/conservative bias. It is about votes and therefore control of the government. The GOP is stuck with a losing agenda of making the immigration laws be enforced while they try to gerrymander the vote in order to get the same control. The ideology is second to the slime both sides are perpetrating to remain in or gain control. The whole Obama immigration forgiveness is for Hillary. This is a s plain as the nose on your face.

    3. TwerkZerker profile image91
      TwerkZerkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      How does opposing illegal immigration make one a racist? Illegal immigrants are not a race of their own. ANY person of ANY race from ANY country who comes to our country through illegal means (hopping a border, falsifying identification, lying to immigration services, forgery, etc.) is in our country illegally. They are breaking the law.

      The only one bringing race into the issue is you, by insinuating that anyone who thinks immigration laws should be enforced is a "racist".

      I--like most conservative-leaning people--have no problem with people from other countries immigrating to ours. In fact, if it wasn't for immigration, our country would not have a high enough birth rate to sustain American culture, and we'd be in the state of cultural decline that most of Europe is in right now.

      Our problem is with people who ignore the legal venues that must be taken to come to America, who come here illegally, who mooch off government benefit programs, raising the cost of health care for everyone, and who don't contributing anything back to our country.

      Do you have any idea how many hospitals have been forced into bankruptcy because of illegal immigrants being uninsured and unable to pay for their medical care?

      There are many people who have immigrated to our country legally, found jobs, forged a living from their hard work, pay their taxes, give back to society, and actually EARN the benefits they receive from our government. These people should be commended for their honesty and integrity.

      So why should their hard work be cheapened and ignored just so that a dozen other illegal immigrants who DON'T pay taxes, and don't contribute back to our society can get the same benefits WITHOUT working hard for them like everyone else?

      Explain to me why I'm racist for thinking that our country should be rewarding people who follow the law and work hard instead of those who don't work hard, don't follow the law, and are only here looking for a free lunch at the expense of my tax dollars (and those of every other legal, tax-paying citizen)?

      1. wilderness profile image95
        wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        "So why should their hard work be cheapened and ignored just so that a dozen other illegal immigrants who DON'T pay taxes, and don't contribute back to our society can get the same benefits WITHOUT working hard for them like everyone else?"

        Because if we don't, we can't claim all conservatives are racist?  At least I can't come up with any other reason...

        1. TwerkZerker profile image91
          TwerkZerkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Hahaha! You just made my night! smile  Thanks, wilderness!

          1. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            smile

  2. Fred Arnold profile image59
    Fred Arnoldposted 2 years ago

    Zerker, please provide a source for some of those hospitals who have stated specifically that they were shut down due to illegal immigrants. I'm pretty sure the number of uninsured Americans far exceed the amount of illegal immigrants... Just some numbers for you: 41 million Americans are uninsured while they estimate 11 million illegal immigrants. Those numbers are coming from NYTimes. Please, stop posting random facts with no basis.

    In other news, I agree with Zerker, though I am a libertarian. There's a legal process for a reason.

    1. wilderness profile image95
      wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Not sure what that has to do with anything, unless you are trying to say that because we can absorb 40 million uninsured we can absorb 60 million.  The logic in that doesn't seem to follow very well.

    2. TwerkZerker profile image91
      TwerkZerkerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      In this source, it's cited that in 2003 alone (so it's reasonable to assume that number has grown to this day, as the number of illegal immigrants in the country has been increasing) 77 hospitals in the American Southwest and 84 just in California had to be completely shut down.

      http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/2011/0 … hospitals/

      Here's record of a dialysis clinic that had to close--mostly due to unpaid medical expenses of patients who were almost all illegal immigrants:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/healt … wanted=all

      Do a quick Google search and you'll find tons of sources like these.

      While you are correct that there are more uninsured Americans than illegal immigrants (and yes, that implies that uninsured Americans do have a part to play in the closing of some hospitals), you are failing to account for the distribution of these people within the country. You'll find uninsured Americans pretty much everywhere.

      However, the vast majority of all illegal immigrants are located fairly close to the U.S-Mexico border because it is so poorly enforced. The further you travel Southwest (toward Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California...), the more the local populations of illegal immigrants increases.

      Because the population of illegal immigrants is so densely concentrated over a fewer number of hospitals (whereas you'll find uninsured Americans about anywhere, spread out over the nation), their inability to pay for their medical expenses is a big deal.

      In the reports of many hospitals which had to shut down wards or close completely, you'll find that the majority of the clientele was composed of illegal immigrants.

      The way this affects the rest of the nation, though, is that *somebody* still has to pay the owed debt to *someone*. That debt doesn't disappear. And because these hospitals know that they're going to take a hit from a disproportionately large amount of illegal immigrants who can't afford to pay, they drive up the prices (which hurts everyone).

      I'm happy, though, that you're willing to take everything with a grain of salt. This country needs more people like you.

  3. Fred Arnold profile image59
    Fred Arnoldposted 2 years ago

    I'm saying the hospitals are taking in more uninsured Americans over illegal immigrants. There's no proof to the statement, "hospitals are closing cause of illegal immigration." I see you didn't post a source, either, because I cannot find one.

    1. wilderness profile image95
      wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      My source was you.  I accept your figures.

      But still can't find the truth in saying that because the country can afford to provide health care to 40 million citizens it can afford to add 10 million more.  Or are you saying that hospitals are NOT going under/downsizing as a direct result of lack of payment?

  4. Fred Arnold profile image59
    Fred Arnoldposted 2 years ago

    I'm saying the latter of your statement, yes. If hospitals are going under due to uninsured it will be a combination of both factors with the American uninsured being the majority.

  5. Fred Arnold profile image59
    Fred Arnoldposted 2 years ago

    Touche good sir! I looked on google, but did not find anything related. The best I had gotten was:

    http://kaiserhealthnews.org/news/medica … ency-care/

    Which just states the amount it costs and a lot of stuff about medicaide.

    Our uninsured, between 2008-2013, costs ~50-90 billion depending on some of the numbers you look it, with 2014 being 5.7 billion lower than last year.

    http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/2014 … edcare.pdf

    http://www.medicalnewsinc.com/counting- … ed-cms-195

    Opposed to 1.86 billion due to immigrants.

    Numbers wise, America needs to figure out their healthcare before immigration, but both need to be redefined.

    1. wilderness profile image95
      wildernessposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Hint: use the "reply" button under the post you are replying to.  Otherwise no one can tell what you are talking about.

      I disagree.  Healthcare needs a major revamping (something Obamacare did NOT provide), but it isn't the biggest problem of illegals entering the country.  In that regard it is only the tip, and not a big one; loss of work, additional welfare in many forms and more crime easily trumps it.

      But there is no reason both cannot be addressed at once, and we should be doing just that.  Instead we pad the insurance companies pockets and invite more illegals to feed from the pockets of the American citizenry, exacerbating both problems at once instead of solving them.

  6. Fred Arnold profile image59
    Fred Arnoldposted 2 years ago

    Touche good sir! I couldn't find any specific articles like that. I found one:

    http://kaiserhealthnews.org/news/medica … ency-care/

    But it talks more about medicaid.

    It seems uninsured Americans costs health providers an estimated 50-90 billion depending on the source.

    http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/2014 … edcare.pdf

    2014 showed a 5.7 billion decrease, but still, compared to 2 billion estimated from illegal immigrants. Both our uninsured and them make up the problem. You can't say one without the other since they both are mooching off of the system, right?

  7. Fred Arnold profile image59
    Fred Arnoldposted 2 years ago

    Sorry for the double post... It didn't show it when I reloaded the page....

 
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