I wanted to add my voice to what Don and wrenchBuscuit were trying to explain. I think that it deserves a more in depth evaluation. I probably should have done a hub.
White supremacy is not only something physical but acts at the subconscious level.
The PBS special a few years ago entitled Guns, Germs and Steel attempted to explain how Europeans overran so many indigenous populations on other continents. But it left out the 4th component, the establishment of white supremacy in the areas that they conquered and occupied.
The fourth component is far more insidious than the other three.
It is force like gravity that encompasses everything regardless of people learning to take it for granted and not notice it. We learn to build and structure our lives, taking it into consideration in everything we do. Always pulling, tugging, reminding.
It is why the black toddler prefers the white doll over one that looks like him or her consistently in tests.
Much like the Kapo, the prisoner that was the work driver in Nazi concentration camps, who in exchange for a little better food and the privilege to live another day, drove their fellow prisoners ruthlessly in the interests of the Third Reich.
The use of a “driver” not overseer during the Ante-bellum slavery period in America. This driver was a black slave who again received privileges and, by himself being black, reinforced the hopelessness of the slave and his condition blurring the lines for the slave population as to who was the enemy.
Your survival depending your subjecting yourself to the system and that subjecting yourself had its reward that came in many forms. Black people, to get into any prominent position must acknowledge that system and in most cases will not be different than a white person there.
Having visited Europe and Central America and living in Panama for 5 months, the nature of this “white supremacy” manifests itself in different ways depending on where you are. But the common thread had always been that whiter is better. Where did all of that come from? In another PBS special Professor HL Gates speaks on the differences as to this supremacy concept in North America as compared with Central and South America.
I do not blame current living Anglos for this situation, your predecessors were very clever. I ask that you consider and see yourself clear to acknowledge that it exists. While none of you rode with Custer, you are still in possession of stolen property and have benefitted. And to make amends, no one offers to return the stolen property. There are other resources besides land which can be stolen in the same way….
That is why when people freak about the majority-minority status coming to America toward mid-century, it is a red herring. The superior wealth and power of white anglos will not be subject to that change and that often times trump sheer numbers as an advantage. The powers that be already know that.
Well said, Credence2. Although it is purported that non-Caucasians will outnumber Caucasians in 2050, Caucasians will have the socioeconomic power nevertheless. Socioeconomics rule the vote and other forms of power, not sheer numbers. Caucasians will continue to hold the reigns of power for some time to come.
"Caucasians will have the socioeconomic power nevertheless. Socioeconomics rule the vote and other forms of power, not sheer numbers"
How so? That seems counterintuitive to me.
I went back and read through your forum post several times, using the technique of focusing on the words black and white. I asked myself, how much does color add to the discussion?
As with so many things, the focus on black verse white is a red herring. Supremacy or dominance versus subservience is, in my humble opinion, a better discussion to have. How do you go about conveying a message that no matter where you come from and no matter what your background, it is possible to better your living conditions?
Yes, FJ, I agree most everything is possible, but why does it have to so much more difficult for some over others ? People weary of having to climb Mt. Everest, while others merely have to traverse the anthill to end up with the same outcome. Take a look at my message to janesix, where I like to think that I show the role race and color has in the debate. So, in our society who is dominant and who is subservient?
Is there really such a thing as "white supremacy" going on? You seem rather vague in what that actually is.
I see nothing of the sort. Is it the culture of capitalism? If so, that is certainly not a 'white" thing.
I have heard that black kids get picked on in school if they do too well, and are told they are "acting white" I don't know how true that is, but I hear it all the time. What is "acting white"?
Granted, janesix, I have not had anyone burn a cross on my yard lately. The most obvious example of white supremacy was displayed in the sea-change turnover of a white Democratic South to solid GOP (mid to late 60's). These folks wanted nothing to do with the party of Lincoln, but they over moved in droves anyway. It certainly was not about Goldwater's concerns for 'smaller government', nor concern about the fate of Rockefeller Republicans in the Northeast. The fear of the loss of 'white supremacy' was their only true motive, but it was not politically correct to be so frank.
Since then this quote from a noted legal scholar gives the best description of what this is here and now.
" By 'white supremacy', I do not mean to allude to the self-conscious racism of white supremacist hate groups. I refer, instead, to a political and cultural system in which whites overwhelmingly control power and material resources, conscious and unconscious ideas of white superiority and entitlement are widespread, and relations of white dominance and non white subordination are daily reenacted across a broad array of institutions and social settings' It takes the form of 'white privilege'
White privilege is hidden and transparent preference that is often difficult to address, so it is to advantage of so many to simply deny its existence out of hand. So we can all basically say 'even steven', right?
The average black family's net worth is only 5% of that of the average white family. How is the sheer magnitude of that disparity possible when we all reside in the same country? Those statistics are found all over the web.
According to the Washington Post, Blacks are 31 percent more likely to be stopped by police and the stops were for vehicle defects and record checks. Blacks had twice the likelihood of not being given an explanation for the stop by the patrolman. Racial profiling, Driving While Black?
Whites are significantly less ( 50 percent less) likely to be searched in the process of a stop over Blacks, even though the likelihood of a member of either group carrying contraband is the same. Always being given the benefit of the doubt is a privilege, is it not?
A National Journal article a year ago indicates that 12.4 percent of Black college grads were unemployed compared with 5.6% of white college grads. Even more disturbing from the DC based Center for Economic Policy Research is that when applying for jobs, White males with criminal histories are far more likely to receive calls back than Black men with no record at all. How is that for a bit of Carte Blanche?
Three years ago, Wells Fargo and Bank of America, the nation's largest mortgage lenders, had to pay $175M to settle allegations that the companies discriminated against Black and Hispanic borrowers. This came from the Wall Street Journal. These banks had been targeting minorities for subprime loans even when their credit would have warranted their being given standard conventional loans. Yes, the banks were punished. But these large prestigious institutions operating at the highest levels of our economy had the temerity to think that this was ok, what was I to believe about similar institutions with much less light on them? Was it not a privilege that white families were not victimized by this scam?
Assuming that you were from Mo., I thought that I needed to provide some objective evidence of the things that I speak about.
I attempted to put a little flesh on a concept that we live with daily but that is invisible to most of you. There are countless additional examples of structural realities in the system that give the Anglo a preferential and more satisfying life. Also, those preferential advantages are, too often, at our expense.
"Even more disturbing from the DC based Center for Economic Policy Research is that when applying for jobs, White males with criminal histories are far more likely to receive calls back than Black men with no record at all."
Proof? Link? Statistics?
http://csgjusticecenter.org/reentry/pos … mployment/
here is one link of many that supports the paragraph that you excepted from my post.
You put forth the question as to the validity of white supremacy. I checked this out carefully to provide a cogent answer. Do you really want to hear the answer or be intellectually dishonest about your acceptance of the information presented.
The data I put forth is all over the web, surely you can "google". So what is your explanation or answer. Do you have one, why be evasive? There are several examples that I provide, how do you refute them all? Maybe, the ability to overlook information contrary to your hypothesis of what is going on is part of this "white privilege thing'. But, surely, you are going to have to do better.
Yes, there is such a thing as white supremacy, based on all the evidence I provided, can you challenge or refute it?
I am still studying the information you provided.
While some of the results of the study seem to indicate racism, the results were still mixed. There is this result, for example:
"Contrary to expectations, among
those who had serve time in person, both Hispanics (66.7%) and blacks (37.5%) were more
likely to be called for an interview than whites"
http://thecrimereport.s3.amazonaws.com/ … oyment.pdf
You are equivocating, janesix. Page 13 of the report support my statement that white potential hires with criminal records stand a better chance at being contacted for work over blacks with no record at all. Does that not astonish you? What about all the other supporting data in other areas of life that I provided? How about chapter and verse of this rather volumnous report, so I can see what associated information you did not include?
I conceded that it could indicate racism. I read the entire report. Is that not a good enough indication that I am at least reading the material, and considering it? I might take a lot to convince, but I am at least willing to listen and learn.
I did not see this post from you, when you and people like you express a willingness to listen then there is hope. Reading the material is a good start, but taking it in and weighing it against your current world view and seeing the possibility of taking a different attitude would be most desirable. Many of you do not want to be convinced, hats off to your courage to at least look at the issues on all sides that are involved, head on.
As far as the culture of Capitalism goes, yes, it is ultimately the culprit. Institutional racism and white privilege is a component part of divide and conquer strategy that keeps working people at each others throat. In the South for example they were willing to sell it all out to cling to their whiteness and its perceived advantages, which is not as was in the past. Now, all the middle class are threatened by the plutocrats in the boardrooms and their lackeys in Congress.
Also, yes, I attended public schools and Black students, males in particular were marked disciplinary problems and saw the traditional education process and etc. as 'acting white'. They could only see the despair around them and that in the eyes of their parents. To mimic their subconscious expectations of failure, as failure was all around them. When they spoke of successful economic routes it usually refered to sports and entertainment where their livelihood could be attained without having to go through nor have the approval of the 'man and his system'. Unfortunately, it is not a practical solution to our economic viability over the long term.
Whites were from Germany, Poland, Holland, England, Scandinavia, etc: all cold countries where if people didn't work really hard to survive and enable themselves to stay warm and sheltered during the winter, they would perish.
I would say those from cold states are more dynamically success oriented than those from warm states.
For instance: At this point if I moved to South Dakota, I would probably perish. I don't have the self discipline to survive in a place like that. I never had to develop what it takes: dedication to work work work and $$$$, being a laid back So-Cal-ian. Certainly not bragging.
Yes, but from what I saw on this program, it was more complicated than that. It had something to do with the development of agriculture methods needed to grow food that due to the northern climes was not simply hanging around and could not be grown year round. Your observation is noted, those of the Northern Hemisphere, to the north and south of the Tropic of Cancer and Capricorn respectively generally did better. So, it is true that necessity is the mother of invention?
Coming from a poorer "white " American working culture , I can say this , There is no excuse for the lack of motivation in any American culture , those that have to work to feed them selves at least , and certainly those who begin poor and want to better themselves and their loved one's lives . As in previous generations in rural America, of which I speak , First their were the needs , education , food , living quarters , a vehicle , medical bills , we ALL know that there can never be enough money , BUT when there isn't enough motivation to go out and get ?!?
There is the problem , I actually remember my mother going for some kind of financial help when my father had to go into the hospital for a few weeks , AND not being able to get any help ! This may have been in the sixties but the same should hold true today . Today however - there is permanent welfare ! And do people ever go for it , No pride = no motivation .
maybe the welfare could come in the form of a loan… interest free to be paid back… maybe..?
It should come , quite frankly , with real oversight , with constant caseworker contact , with a time limit for finding work . just like SSI disability benefits it is absolutely unwatched. Career and generational welfare recipients are the only problem I have with it . It's so flagrantly abused that it will never even out . But payback should be a big part of it as well.
Yes, there is systemic Caucasian supremacy. It is woven in the American fabric. Even though it has lessened, it is still present in covert ways. Just as there is systemic Caucasian supremacy, there is also male supremacy. Men are still dominant in this society as evident by the glass ceiling in many high powered jobs. There is also religious supremacy in which people who are atheists, agnostics, and other non-traditional spiritualists are still discriminated against. There is also heterosexual supremacy which members of the LBGT community feel overt and covert discrimination.
In this society, although it is becoming more pluralistic in scope, there are still remnants of Caucasian, male, religionist, and heterosexual supremacy. However, people of color, women, non-traditionalists, and the LBGT community are making significant inroads into positions of influence in our society. Yes, there is discrimination by the dominant culture but that should only serve as in impetus to success, not an excuse as a refusal to succeed. Many use the premise of Caucasian supremacy is an excuse to be mired in negative situations. That act reflects victimology and irresponsibility.
Grace, I agree with your last two sentences, but my point is that caucasian supremacy is a part of our culture, nonetheless. It still poses a head wind to getting airborne for most of us, regardless of the fact that the most determined of us do anyway. But would it not be a privilege to take to the skies without any such similar resistance?
Of course, it would be better for all concerned if there were no Caucasian supremacy. However, it is so embedded in many Caucasians' consciousness that it will take generations for it to be drastically reduced, even disappear if ever. It is up to us to resist Caucasian supremacy in America. It is analogous to facing mean kids and bullies. They are a part of the human fabric. Yes, it would be nice if there were no mean kids and bullies but they persist nonetheless. All we have to do is STAND UP TO and FIGHT TO DEFEAT them!
True, but it is also up to caucasians to acknowledge and recognize how their systemic advantages has a role to play in race relations and differing life outcomes between our groups. This 'supremacy' translates to real and tangible disadvantages among disaffected groups. There is far more to it than just what is inside of someones head or otherwise just confined to attitudes not having any affect on those in the real world. We can't wait before people become enlightened enough to recognize that racial profiling, for example, is unacceptable. White privilege reduces this observations to the realm of "everyman" and that is not true, specific groups are being targeted consciously or subconciously with life altering outcomes.
It is very difficult psychosocially for many Caucasians to acknowledge their privileged status. They are well aware of the fact. People of color have to exert socioeconomic power and start their own enterprises and other places of business. They also have to exert socioeconomic influence to garner politicians who will work FOR their interests. If people of color are going to wait for Caucasians to recognize and relinquish their dominant hegemony on the American scene, they are going to wait for a very long time. People of color will have to take socioeconomic control of their lives. Caucasians at this point of the game AREN'T about to give up their privilege-NOT ONE IOTA! It is TIME for people of color to OWN, not wait for Caucasian dominant hegemony to end because it IS NOT going to end anytime soon.
What about black privilege? Black privilege is open for everyone to see. Try starting a "White Student Union" or "White History Month" and see what happens. If there is "white privilege" it is certainly hard to detect.
Or Native American privilege? We are the most privileged of all. Who else gets extra benefits, just based on our race? Totally unfair, in my opinion.
We are ALL equal, and shouldn't get extras due to our skin color. Race doesn't even really exist, in my opinion.
Maybe there is racism all around. If so, all the issues should be addressed.
You are now being naive, with the fear of a trapped animal, checkmate?
This oxymoron 'black privilege' is non existent, how does black privilege affect when and how frequently you are arrested, denied employment, or get the bottom end of law enforcement and the judicical system in an unjustified way?
I may not like people in purple ties, but my dislike does not affect their life chances in a universal way, 'white privilege' does. Since whites overwhelmingly control the system, your biases are enshrined at all levels of society. We have to work against a gravitational field, while you are in comparative free-fall.
You still don't get it, what do you know about Native Americans? If you were one, you would not be reasoning this way? These people have been relegated to reservations and the land that was stolen is being compensated for by the United States government.
Yes, we are all equal, but in this system, some are more equal than others. This manifests itself in so many ways. Can I get you to admit to that without dancing around the point?
It is just like 'white privilege' to say 'race doesn't exist' when in so many statistics it is obvious that a distinction on the basis of race is being made.
Those tired old right wing arguments about White History Month and such are so much rot. American history has always been about whites and their achievements. Only within the last generation or two have the contributions of others that were not white, and male if you like, even enter into the conversation.
Yes, there is racism all around, but only one kind has the ability to adversely affect the life chances of entire groups of people over a broad swath of life, and we know what that is, do we not?
Interesting conversation though, I am glad that you had the guts to face me on this issue.
Well, maybe it is time for the truth to come out, real people pay a price because a certain group of people and sociatal structure chooses to put its head in the sand. We are quick to ask the black community to step up, we see their 'psychological programs' as excuses, remember Cgenea? I can't see why white, homo sapien, sentient people cannot take the salve out of their eyes?
How are they aware of it when most don't even admit that they have a privilege.
You are right they are not going to give up their advantages and will fight to the death to conceal the fact that they have them. When they do not acknowledge their contribution to the problem, why should I take seriously their rants about problems in the black community that they say are our own solely.
While it is not an excuse for minorities to give up, I am going to drag "the man behind the curtain" (Wizard of Oz) out in the open so that everyone can see
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