Torture Under the Bush Administration

1. 67

   Mishaposted 16 years ago

   LOL Pam, yet another point of agreement
   
   People really don't understand that, they think they are invincible, even in the face of strong opposing evidence.
   
   Really exemplary case is the history of the heads of NKVD (KGB predecessor) during Stalin times. Three people subsequently hold the job, and every previous one was tortured and then executed by his successor...

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2. 60

   countrywomenposted 16 years ago

   Actually one of my friend sent me an email once with a link (probably even available at youtube) about a horrible execution in front of a camera where the neck of the hostage is cut with a knife. I felt so much disgust and just couldn't digest that footage for couple of days. I feel if somebody sees those images then it certainly evokes strong reactions that anything can be justified against those folks who subscribe to such an "ideology".
   
   But as Sufi mentioned in the long term an eye for an eye never works and only constructive engagement with moderate elements among them(yes even they exist) helps to mitigate the negativity. If somebody is bad to us and we also treat them equally bad then what is the difference between civilized and "uncivilized" folks. And in the long run more friends are gained by humanitarian approach and the propaganda machine of those extremists folks would not have much ammunition left to fuel the new generation of folks to take up arms. I know it is a slow and painful process but do we really have any other choice?

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      Leta Sposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      The rules of conduct concerning POW's and torture was long ago established by lawful nations.  I suppose by some of the reasoning here (edit-and I mean in this thread, CW, not your reasoning, lol), since we were/are 'at war,' that is enough reason to also use terrorist tactics against our enemies, since it was used, too.
      
      Those who are arguing 'for' torture here really have no precedence or leg to stand on.  They are doing so for purely partisan reasons, I believe.  I'm probably ready to chalk it up to the well known Bush admin. and conservative incompetence...
      
      I know the tape you are talking about CW, actually. Incidentally, tapes like this are also shown to military officers in training...  And being involved in the acts of war IS DIFFERENT than dealing with enemy combatants or POW's.  One is a much more controlled situation, where emotions should have no part, if the interrogators are trained professionals. (ie, if a doctor 'freaked out' emotionally over blood and pain, should he/she be a doctor?)

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3. 59

   Teresa McGurkposted 16 years ago

   I know I'm jumping in here into the middle of the thread -- but I was reminded earlier today of an incident that took place in Belfast during the 1970's.  The British Army captured a terrorist just after he had planted a bomb.  Instead of going in to diffuse it themselves (this must have been before their handy robots), they sent the terrorist in.
   
   There was outrage.  The ethical debate was this: did the army have the right to put someone else in harm's way?  Even if that person were the guy who had planted the bomb and knew most about its composition and any booby trap in place?

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      Leta Sposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      I'd say that's debatable...even though I'd have to read and listen to more to make a decision on what I really think.  However, it is also--at least in my mind, a totally different situation than the systematic use of torture on a POW.

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4. 59

   Teresa McGurkposted 16 years ago

   yeah -- you're right; it is completely different than premeditated, systematic torture.  It's still someone exerting power over another in ways that infringe upon their human rights, though.

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5. 0

   Leta Sposted 16 years ago

   So that the point drawn is that the perception and allowance of human rights is always a balancing act--and is such when considering any right.  Mill argued that a struggle always takes place between the competing demands of liberty and authority--that we cannot have one without the other.
   
   A window shield view of this situation might be that it is of immediate consequence, outweighing the rights of the terrorist in favor of those he would save...  But honestly, I'd need to know much more.

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6. 0

   mdawson17posted 16 years ago

   I can say any kind of torture to any human being is wrong and any anyone who creates such acts should be held accountable regardless of job description!

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7. 60

   logic,commonsenseposted 16 years ago

   Personally I thought having Clinton as a President was utterly utterly ridiculous.

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8. 61

   tksenseiposted 16 years ago

   Oh and I don't know why you're so obssessed with fictional characters but I suppose he could have done with a few swimming lessons.

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      Leta Sposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      
      Could be his doublespeak strangled him, lol, maybe because he actually really really believed all the lil pernicious details were the important things (try writing a book or a thesis and have that...though syntax is important, if you can't talk about ideas, you will surely drown).
      
      While it is true that you can hang an opponent like this, you also will be considered in a certain light, .  As I'm sure the Bush admin. will be, actually.

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9. 61

   tksenseiposted 16 years ago

   Sorry to be so sleazy.

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      Leta Sposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      LOL  Yer a natural, TK.  What's your background?  History/Law?
      
      You still have a cute dog!

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         tksenseiposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         That's my ace in the hole. There's only so angry you can get with the picture of the cute dog there. Wolfgang to the rescue!
         
         
         In case of special emergency I break glass containing photos of my 8 month old little boy.

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10. 70

    Ralph Deedsposted 16 years ago

    The Torture Master
    http://api.ning.com/files/-zCEEN5-lyh1y … ripped.gif

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       nicompposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       The liar
       http://www.orthodoxnet.com/news/graphic … n_liar.jpg

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          Ralph Deedsposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          Clinton is off topic! Torture was not involved.

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11. 0

    Leta Sposted 16 years ago

    OK, Ok...I expect spitballs and food in the lunchroom to be thrown next.
    
    LOL, lol, anybody have a salient point to make?

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12. 0

    Leta Sposted 16 years ago

    "Hard to swallow" is probably a metaphor worth avoiding when it comes to water torture. I don't doubt that a few Dems (ie, Nancy Pelosi-my note) were clued in. And they should be held responsible for their share as well. This was a collective failure on the part of the political leadership of both parties - although obviously the lion's share belongs in the executive branch. But the Congress is co-equal; they were briefed; we deserve to know exactly what they knew and what, if anything they did to stop it.
    
    All the more reason for a truly independent commission to address all responsible parties. Give it time and money. This failure is different from the failure to stop 9/11, but it is a profound moral failure and legal travesty. There is just as much reason to investigate this. In fact, a thorough investigation by a mature democracy of this failure could begin to repair some of the damage. That's my hope. I want us to move on. But we cannot move on unless we have held ourselves accountable, and cauterized this period as anomalous.
    
    Or else the threat of a future torture program, justified as this one was, looms over all of us, and the world.
    
    
    --Andrew Sullivan, conservative, writing on his blog for The Atlantic

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13. 70

    Ralph Deedsposted 16 years ago

    White House to declassify revealing CIA torture report which rebuts much of the B.S. Cheney has been putting out.
    
    http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/tortu … ut-cheney/

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       Leta Sposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Yes.  Bob Woodward is saying the Bush-Cheney torture techniques were like something out of the 13th century.
       
       Also, this might have been Obama's play on the whole thing after all--taking the high ground, urging that we move forward, while releasing crucial information and letting others use up the space. Cheney blunders in....and hangs himself.  Rope a Dopes.  Similar to what was used with McCain/Palin.

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14. 61

    tksenseiposted 16 years ago

    Will they reveal all the related documents or just ones edited to show what they want them to show?
    
    Should any classified documents be used by either side in a political circus? I think not.

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15. 70

    Ralph Deedsposted 16 years ago

    Is Dick Cheney to be trusted?
    
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e20jObYb … r_embedded

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16. 61

    tksenseiposted 16 years ago

    Is Joe Biden? Are you?

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       Ralph Deedsposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Biden certainly is trustworthy.
       
       Cheney is hitting the road with a sound truck to spread the word on torture.
       
       http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-boro … 01457.html

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          tksenseiposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          Let me guess...

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       Leta Sposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Are you to be trusted, TK?    You can be kinda sleazy, as you admitted, lol...

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          tksenseiposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          Hardly.

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17. 70

    Ralph Deedsposted 16 years ago

    The Twinkie defense of torture
    
    http://www.slate.com/id/2218290/

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       Leta Sposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       With airy cream filling...  'Specially on Hubpages.

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18. 70

    Ralph Deedsposted 16 years ago

    Here are the 13 people principally responsible for torture in the Bush administration:
    1. Dick Cheney
    2. David Addington
    3. Alberto Gonzales
    4. James Mitchell
    5. George Tenet
    6. Condolezza Rice
    7. John Yoo
    8. Jay Bybee
    9. William "Jim" Wagner
    10.Donald Rumsfeld
    11.John Rizzo
    12. Stephen Bradbury
    13. George W. Bush
    
    This article in today's Salon details the role of each of the above felons http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/ … index.html

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       nicompposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Salon is your source? There's a non-biased reference. lol.
       
       Anyway, convenient it is to omit the Democrats, including Nancy, who asked "Are we going far enough?" when they were briefed by the CIA regarding pouring water on people's heads.
       
       And when did this so-called torture stop? Oh yes, 2003, over 6 years ago. And how many people had some water poured on their heads? Oh, yeah.... three.
       
       
       How about a list of people who have volunteered to be waterboarded?
       
       1. John Ashcroft: http://digg.com/d1HySl
       2. Sean Hannity: listen to his show, he says it almost every day
       3. Nancy Pelosi
       4. John Boehner
       
       Sorry... I added the last 2 without consulting them.

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       1. 70

          Ralph Deedsposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          The Holocaust occurred more than 60 years ago, but Germany is still prosecuting perpetrators. I'm glad, at least, you appear to agree that torturing prisoners was wrong.

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          Leta Sposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          Exactly what was this post about?  Didn't see much of any argument whatsoever.

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    AlexiusComnenusposted 16 years ago

    Even as a soldier I don't trust anyone in government. It naturally corrupts. The fact that we are even debating the necessity of torture is an admission that bedrock principles on which this country was founded are eroding. Our "good" nature is what separates us from these terrorists. Any infringement on this distinction is a sacrifice.

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       Leta Sposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Agreed, Alexius.  Good to have another perspective.  Interesting that it converges with that of us 'liberals.'  But then who would know about this more than those instructed in soldiering?

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    AlexiusComnenusposted 15 years ago

    Torture is un-American. The fact that we allowed it under the guise of a "necessary evil" only shows just how far we've sunk. Franklin's advice was to never give up essential liberty for temporary safety. If only we paid closer attention to those wise men who started this country from scratch.

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       Staci-Barbo7posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       We don't like to think that our America or our leaders are "like" those who ruled countries such as Hitler's Germany, World War II Japan, and those today known as "The Axis of Evil" in President Bush's own words.  However, when our leaders conduct themselves - and order others to do the same - without the conscience of a first grade child, we are becoming, by those acts, like the "them" that every good American holds in contempt for their brutality. 
       
       Trust me, this brutality and miring of conscience was not the fault of one party - both parties are briefed within the Congressional committees that deal with Homeland Security.  A link to the page that gives chairs and ranking members of these committees follows:
       
       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un … Committees
       
       Members of both parties are included in this list. This is not a Republican v. Democrat debate, with the Democrats representing moral courage and responsibility.  Members of both parties are CULPABLE.  If you stand by as an observer to moral outrage and do nothing to prevent it or expose it, you are just as guilty as the one who initiates the wrong.   
       
       As Americans, it is time to see that WE ARE CULPABLE as a people, as our leaders still presumably represent US instead of their own private agendas.  Yes, those in power hid this outrage from us, but WE must make amends by demanding that this kind of atrocity can never again take place at American hands.
       
       No partisanship - I speak as one who loves my country and wants to see its moral goodness preserved.

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          Ralph Deedsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Bush, Cheney, Addington, Professor John Yoo and the others listed above, not the Democrats, are responsible for the shameful torture. Some Congressional Democrats could have done more to resist but recent revelations are that the CIA and Bush people lied to Congress and didn't fully disclose what was going on wrt to torture and illegal surveillance of American citizens in this country.

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             VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Torture of terrorists and their supporters are not new. The famous modern terrorists, if and when they come to power, will do thousand times more cruelty to people against them. So, it is no sin if the terrorists and lawless citizens and their supporters are tortured.
             
             If the CIA and Bush, Cheney and Addington, Prof. John Yoo and others were responsible, it would have been in the national interests only. If Bush and CIA lied to Congress, should we think Congress is more sacred than the president of US and CIA?

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             earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Looking in from Australia, I am keen to see this out in the open.

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                Ralph Deedsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                Me too! But I fear Obama views this as a distraction. That may be true but it's a quite important matter.

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       Ralph Deedsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Amen!

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