After all the bullhockey posts in these forums, I have to make another stab at promoting a fabulous read!
Churchill - The End of Glory by John Charmley
If you have any interest in WWII or WWII-era British politics this is a must read.
My first impression was that Mr. Charmley was full of himself and his mastery of the English vocabulary. It is a tough read, not exactly a page-turner. And he certainly wasn't a Churchill sycophant, but... once into it, it gives amazing insight into the man, British politics, and the British/American relationship through the WWII period.
You can find this book for under$5 on ebay or half.com - well worth the money.
Get it! read it! And piss on who can use what bathroom!
Thx for the tip. I'll let you know what I think.
I really hope you do. It took me over a month to get through it, (bedtime reading). But it really expanded my understanding, and I am anxious to find someone to discuss it with.
For instance; I am a Churchill admirer - from historical and mass media info - but I had no idea how much of a blindered(yep, I know, SP), world view he had.
I had a very negative view of Chamberlain's enthusiasm for his Hitler agreement - only to find out that Churchill did the same thing with Stalin and Poland.
In my primary school days, I become fascinated with history. That is why I read it at University. I like Winston Churchill being quoted. One of the most famous is during the last world war. he said: We will fight on land. We will fight on the sea. We will fight in the air. At one time, some boys and girls were mocking the good Winston that he is old. He responds that he was not deaf. His he not wise?
Hello Miebakagh57, Wow! Picking up on a 2-year old thread. Nice.
I am glad you like the topic. I believe that Churchill, for all his greatness, and his warts, was the only man that could have saved England during that time.. I am glad you liked the read.
Funny thing about history, GA, there are fortuitous circumstances where the right man comes about at the right time. The tenacity of Churchill was a characteristic of the man that gave the British people the motivation to keep up the fight in the beginning against overwhelming odds.
I say the same about Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War period here in America, incomparable and irreplaceable.
Thanks for sharing the info about the publication....
Was this what you wished responded to Miebakagh57?
" At one time, some boys and girls were mocking the good Winston that he is old. He responds that he was not deaf. His he not wise?
I would not think of the word wise - relative to Churchill. I think he was smart, but he was also very ambitious, sometimes to an unflattering fault. At one point in his early career he blundered such that he had a political dry-spell that could almost be compared to political exile by his party.
I think he was also a very savvy, calculating and tenacious political animal. He never gave up his political ambitions, and was not shy about his acts of personal and political machinations used in efforts to get back on track to achieve his goals.
But, what I think made him a great, as an Englishman, and a leader was his unshakable core beliefs. Even though his driving belief; being the 'rightness' of British Imperialism, was as wrong, (by today's thoughts), as it was past its time, he had to be pried away from it by the pure necessity of having no other choice.
I think it was that drive to preserve, in his view, England's greatness, and its empire power, that made him the right man at the right time.
So, no, although I do consider him a great man, I would not consider him a shining example of a wise man.
As a side note, he was also a talented writer. He used his writing talents to supplement his government stipends, (he frequently spent, and lived, beyond his means, re: his government pay), during his early and middle career days.
[EDIT ADDED] I misspoke in my first response; it is Churchill's Onward to Victory that I have, and The End of The Beginning, and The Dawn Of Liberation that I still seek, as the books in his final three-book series..
Churchill admired the American Constitution / government should be representational with separated powers to make sure that exercise of power is based on a system of justice. He believed in trusting the people and the importance of free and open debate.
He believed that powers over local things should be exercised locally.
The last words of his last speech in the House of Commons were, "…never flinch, never weary, never despair."
He wrote 73 major works listed here:
I didn’t even notice that this was 2 years old because “After all the bullhockey posts in these forums...” still holds up.
Ain't that the truth. I spend more time "trolling" for a decent conversation to join than I actually do participating. Looks like some things never change.
Well for what it’s worth I value your participation. You’re one of a small group I feel can be depended upon to consistently add something reasonable to a conversation.
aww shucks, why thank you ma'am.
I hope you have noticed, by which posters I tend to engage, that I feel the same about your participation.
Gee... does this mean we're like, buds, or something? I will have to let my wife know.
History does not stop a 2 years old issue or solution. Winston Churchill is still relevant in these times. England could not be what it is now at the moment without Churchill's leadership.
Interesting that liber's have so embraced hypocrisy that they can now divide the nationalist similarities between Churchill and Trump to the point that proves to only liberals that the two had more contrasts than similarities. Like John Kennedy's actual conservatism in comparison to the party today I suppose ?
Can you spell , I d-e-n-t-i-t-y c-r-i-s-i-s ?
Hi, horseback, to whom is the response directed?
How about this , Let's use a line or two of the actual Churchill and not the alt-reality conceived in a thread written by uninformed ;
You cannot pick a line of a hero and then alt-reality your way through politics without facing the firing squad of truth ..........at least once in a while.
Since I started this thread, is there any possible way I cannot perceive this as directed at me?
Of all people to make charges of "alt-reality" and "uninformed," I think the persona of ahorseback, as portrayed by your forum participation, is, by far, the least qualified to make such charges.
A benign description of being a 'one-trick pony' would probably be the most charitable way to describe the way I see the contributions of the ahorseback persona displayed in this forum, but if you used just a little imagination you would have good idea of a few other less charitable descriptions that would be more accurate.
In short, if I were to step down to the appropriate level of discourse to convey a meaning that would be understood, I would probably offer such witty criticisms as; You can kiss my ass, or maybe, or maybe ...
Damn it! You win. You got me to completely ignore Twain's advice about arguing with idiots, and I lose. But what the hell, even if I didn't really say those things, it is worth whatever forum sanctions might occur, just to offer the idea of what I probably think of your contributions.
GA , Congratulations , in all of your long handed , long winded and generalized portrayal of creating informed rather lengthy news paper articles here , You have for years now used an incredible amount of "trusted source " mass media in proving your points , over and over and .............
Problem with that is , is that your using today's media to do it , while at times I've actually admired your sense of civility , snide as you can seem , all you have done in all of this time is mirror my posts from the other side of the spectrum using a crapload of bias media as , again "trusted sources" , hide that as you may .
And actually , it wasn't directed at you at all , it was directed at all of those who like to create alternative personas from historical figures and color them from leftist "crayola "boxes of present day socialism's dreamy utopia-scapes , however If that fit's who you
are then I guess you nor I can't help that .
So this is how I take your criticism beyond a grain of salt my friend , My posts rattle around inside some sense of your conscientious honesty or you wouldn't feel you have to respond to them , seeing how I'm so uninformed . Beyond that , keep on keepin' on GA , I'm sure someones reading those long winded opinions of yours .
"Damn it , You win ............"No. Winning isn't my intent as evidenced in disproving any of today's completely divisive rhetoric from the left , but what I am doing is responding in kind to the mass of Hog-shyte coming from today's massive left -media generated and alt-reality-ed political corner .
And yet you feel the need to call me an idiot ? Interesting GA , You of all people seem to be falling into the same category as many others from your party , If the message isn't leftist , party stroking Kumbaya you call your opponents the same five or six names as for instance good old Jake .
Why am I not surprised ?
I'm over it now ahorseback, no more arguing, except to point out that I didn't actually call you an idiot. That was your perception.
Do you never get tired of picking fights where there really didn’t need to be one? You plucked confrontation out of thin air here.
Quite frankly you’re a bully and you get away with it by insulting “liberals” as a whole rather than one specific person but the pattern of behaviour is the same. For someone who frequently touts his age as some advantage over everyone else you sure have a lot of growing up to do.
I know Aime , I should correct that term liberal to be Alt-liberals , as they are the worst ideological addition to any political system in the world . Interesting though how you are defining my bullying delivering it from your party's piggy bank of two sided coins , what now alt- liberals own a monopoly on bullying ?
ahorseback, after considering a couple 'cute' exclamatory starts to this response, I decided that a direct response is the only appropriate one.
Your comment has no relevance to this thread - a discussion about a historical book about a British leader. It is not welcome here. There are plenty of other threads more appropriate to your rants.
If you want to make a comparison between Trump and Churchill - start your own thread.
Some people believe that God is a Flying Spaghetti Monster. I dare you to disprove it.
I've always appreciated your civility despite disagreeing with you sometimes.
Bottom line, there is no way to argue with the uninformed, the unintelligent, nor the unintellectual if you are informed, intelligent or intellectual. For instance, there are estimates that as many as 25% of the population believe the sun revolves around the earth.
If that is so, why argue with them about politics? Seems like you'll never get anywhere if you can't at least agree on the basics.
I actually love intellectualism Crank : You know why ?
There is just a brilliance there that actually supersedes all the rights , all the knowledge, all of the participatory ability of the remaining population , right ? I mean if only intellectuals were all their were in America , but especially here in political forums ? Right Crank?
Because everybody knows that it is intellectualism that has created the most advanced nation in this worlds history bar none ? Correct ? That is with the exception for one thing and one thing only , the truth .
Welcome to America !
Well, I agree with both of those quotes.
It is certainly true that intellectuals have done plenty of damage throughout the course of history.
Yet, I'm not defining intellectualism as a group of people, but as the ability to think through both sides of an issue and to put oneself in the best position to draw a reasoned conclusion about a set of complex circumstances. While education alone does not mean that one can do this, it certainly helps.
And yet , It is one of your party's favorite insults , to insult the lack of articulation , with liberal conceit and snide remarks insult the supposed lack of intellectualism , If you cannot silence or defeat an argument , you pull your usual monty python BS names from your hats like so many rabbits ?
No , I believe someone was right about common sense , some are definitely challenged and yet many lack it altogether , you in time will have to suffer the challenge of identifying which club you belong to.
For what it's worth, I would classify anybody who watches and believes Breitbart, Alex Jones, or Sean Hannity as anti-intellectual because it demonstrates an inability to recognize fact from fiction. I'm not saying the opinions given on those shows are necessarily wrong, but it's been demonstrated over and over again that the facts upon which many of those conclusions are drawn, are frequently made up. Those sources feed upon vulnerable people's paranoia and I find it sad.
I'm sure you see the same thing with the mainstream media. The difference is, despite bias, is that the mainstream media generally follow guidelines about sourcing and such, whereas the above mentioned sources frequently do not.
I was heartened somewhat by a recent study that found that the majority of Republicans, in fact most of Republicans, believe in human-caused climate change. In other words, Republicans and Democrats actually agree on this issue. It's just that Republicans don't voice this agreement for fear of being outcast by the people with whom they identify.
Hi there crankalicious,
I enjoy sharing and discussing good reads, and I think that Churchill's, "The End of Glory" was a good read for folks with historical political interests.
Because of that, I slipped-up and let the interjected comments 'get my goat.'
But, I've regained my composure. No more useless tirades - until the next one of course. ;-)
Aime , By the way , you do know you're writing about picking fights in a political forum in the year 2018 right ? Perhaps your ideological kindness belongs in a different forum ?
Or how about this ; Ask Hubpages to start shadow banning conservatives like so many other social media forums , then you can all agree on the same ideological plane without discomfort .
Twitter , Face book , Instagram and Google ..........admittedly or allegedly .
Do you have any links that have proof of that? I mean, there's another forum where a conservative is saying that Hubpages has a bias against conservatives because his Trump article isn't performing well.
Certainly, expressions of hatred sometimes get people banned. Others are banned because of advertising pressure.
I'm actually somebody who believes whole-heartedly in everyone's right of free speech, even if I don't agree with it. So whether it's not serving somebody who is gay or believing the earth is flat or believing that the white race is being discriminated against, you should have a right to express that. But you should also have to deal with the consequences.
Google up Shadow banning , you'll see a few sights saying the engineers from these companies ARE shadow banning . Are they admitting it , is it proven , are there court cases ? Who knows . Enough media of both persuasions are talking about it , Of course it all falls right into my suggestion that if your party can't beat the argument , Ban it !
Anybody can say anything. I heard that Breitbart holds parties where they adopt minority children and then feed them alive to bears. Does that make it true?
I also heard this story about a child sex ring in the back of a pizza parlor.
And as typical liberals defending their acts bury not only their heads in the sand but their morals , integrity and apparently their laptops when asked to look at the facts produced of their own media ?
It's okay crank , we understand.
You obviously lack the ability to look up your own media facts and yet still whine ? Then you don't need a laptop you might need a pacifier.
Hi AHorseBack, I would leave anything America to the Americans. Thanks.
Ahhh......I am American ?
Problem is liberals have allowed themselves to become anything BUT American . they have allowed and now sanction their party take over by alt liberals to the point that being UN American has apparently become their new though unspoken party motto.
cmon, Horse, just because I don't buy into your horse droppings, don't say that we (liberals and progressives) are not American. Getting rid of Trump and relegating his rightwing followers to the dankest corner of the root cellar is the most noble objective.
Hello AHorseBack, you know a person can be identified by the way he/she speak. That is why the question arises. But thanks for correcting me. Favorite and favourite identify two different languages. One is America and the other Englishman. Thank you again.
You prove nothing but that apparently you don't like Breitbart ? Dodge and divert as you will ! Yet I'm supposed to read articles from those "rags "?
The American Conservative is a rag and George Will is a liberal. Good to know.
What you have in several of those article is primary sourcing about the fake nature of Breitbart. In other words, not opinion, but admissions from the people who run it, write for it; etc. that what it publishes is dishonest, made up, and fake.
I'm amazed your party can actually say the word" Fake ," Leave it to liberals however to not be able to discern fake article from a fake sight . You really call an entire Brietbart fake but give CNN the liberal award for honest media ?
I've got to try that new 'getting high on hypocrisy' drug.
It's own writers and creators have admitted much on Brietbart is fake, designed to dupe and inflame those who read it and play up their vulnerabilities.
CNN is certainly biased, but did they run Pizzagate as a real story? Do they run stories based on rumors without fact-checking? They do not. The people who cannot tell the difference between the two are those who read Breitbart.
Think about the thousands who thought Pizzagate was real - who still do use Pizzagate to make accusations that there's some kind of pedophile ring infesting the Democratic Party.
Uh huh , .....And today CNN demands an apology from the white house for barring some of their jack a$$ed biased "anchors ", so tell us please who are the real fake ones ?
I enjoy your false equivalences, but let's run with it.
I'm all worked up over the fact, mind you - fact, that the White House barred a CNN reporter from asking questions at an event because she tried to ask questions the White House didn't like.
You are worked up because you believe that all liberals are pedophiles based on a totally fake article on your favorite news site about a child sex ring in the back of some pizza parlor.
As far as how we get our news, which one is worse? I already know your answer.
For your benefit , let me explain the difference between even a CNN correspondent and a CNN journalist , A Correspondent would ask a question even vehemently demanding an honest answer , A CNN editorial journalist asks a question demanding a response to an assumed end agenda answer.
CNN couldn't find a correspondent in their midst if Breitbart held their hand and placed it on the shoulder of one.
The difference between you and I ? I knew the pizza pedo deal , other than Bill Clinton's usual meal , was a hoax the day I first saw it , And It took you THIS long to know the difference ?
I'm certainly glad you knew it was a hoax. Interestingly, our friend Ken, who seems like a pretty smart guy, posted a Facebook thing about how Democrats need to be careful because we're aligning ourselves with pedophiles as a party platform.
So, it concerns me that all of your political ilk are not so wise.
I don’t need people to agree with me or with each other and I shouldn’t have to ask a moderator to keep you civil, being the grown adult that you are.
My point is you go out of your way, in virtually every single post, to rant about liberals and put people down. This thread was not at all related to anything you had to say but you said it anyway because I guess you just can’t help yourself.
You can have discussions without being aggressive and petty. “You” being a proverbial “you”, of course... because it seems that you yourself cannot.
Also just take a minute to think about telling someone that kindness belongs elsewhere. Says a lot about you, I’d say.
Don't you really mean , .........." If you can't agree with our ideology ,our topic points our side of the argument you really should just not post anything "
Sorry Aime , politics is politics not girl scouts selling cookies.
Well, Horse, you heard it, it is past your bedtime, time to turn off the 'puter' and go to bed...
Hi, Credence2, I'm taking your advice timely. I'm off to bed now. Hope no one sends me a discussion to awake me. Till the morning then. Thank you all, and I am not fit into America political"fight."
Well my friend, again welcome to the debate. Don't run away so soon, I would appreciate your input as a fresh look at our debates from someone on the outside.
But in the part of the world where you live, bedtime is the appropriate time right now. We will call on you again, don't hesitate to join in.
Hi Credence2 & friends, Miebakagh57 here. Well rested!. Now, let me contribute a nice point. The solution is about Winston Churchill. But it has degenerated to Breitbart and Trump. It is already a political fight. So, I just keep on a safe ground. As a teenager, I am American at heart, but naturally a Nigerian. Nigeria is presently operating the American constitution in an awkward manner. Has anyone lately heard the killings going on on innocent Christian farmers? I think I should be more concern about this.
But let me loose the American in me. Is trump not a good man? He happens to be one of my twitter fellows. "America First" I think your president has stolen "My Self First" slogan! He made such a great speech with America First. Why the fuse now? Who wants to trump out Trump?
Okay, as for Winston Churchill, he still remains my historical hero from the Englishman side. Buy "The End of Glory" or not is the point.
Rather sad if you ask me that one of the most trusted source of news was ;
I just watched the CNN anchor whining about being expelled from the Presidential meeting at the white house crying in her beer ,"why me "? Like Jim Acosta both CNN anchors wonder why they get thrown out when they continue acting stupidly ? But Oh Yea, " Brietbart is The Fake One "
Yea Crank , we understand . Really !
Hi, GA Anderson. Thanks, and you are welcome. This is what is expected at the Hubpages site.
Hello Miebakagh57, I am glad you liked the topic.
Although there are frequent good "deep dive" interesting discussions here, I think the responses you have seen since you reinvigorated this thread should forewarn you a political forum is not for the timid.
I am currently in search of the other two volumes of his, (Churchill), series of the WWII times, and will revisit this topic when I get my hands on them.
Hello GA, there was a warning before I brought up the discussion. What prompted me is my love for Winston S. Churchill. He is my historical hero. Okay, I understand the wrangling on the discussion forum. You see, I am a Nigerian. I try to keep a safe ground. Nevertheless, I was challenged in spite of my national background to contribute to the British/America relation? While to be franker, I did not see a response. I am waiting while you search. Thank you.
Hello GA, thank you for quoting and responding. When I was challenged on the forum to make my contribution to the British/America relation as an outsider, I informed the vultures that my country Nigeria is operating the American political system. But the politicians are making a nonsense of it, otherwise, how can one explain the killings going on in Nigeria on a weekly basis? I am much concerned with this issue than America. This is no one paid attention to.
Nonetheless, your remark about Winston S. Churchill: his career, greatness, an Englishman, ambition, and so on speaks volume. But WSC is human. And like all humans, he is vulnerable.
But "great men are not always wise." I would not use the greatness of a person as a comparison. Neither , as an example for all men, have holes in them. Whether they are Presidents, Senators, Kings or Queens and so on.
Like as you say, he smarts the kids, yes. Here is the full quote: "Winston Churchill is old, he is getting senile." Is he not both smart and wise in relation to these boys and girls?
He is still my historical hero. Thank you.
I think he serves as a good example of a historical hero. Even with his human faults, his drive and love of country can easily be said to have saved his nation. His War Cabinet was ready to plead for peace, and had decided to do so - but was stayed only by Churchill's determination.
As to the quote, and the boys and girls ... I won't argue if you see it as wise. I would probably be just picky to say I would see that response as just the wisdom and wit of age, not wise, as I would consider a sage, or a Socrates or Aristotle, so hang on to your perception. I don't think it is badly misplaced.
Only a few men I am not for. Winston Churchhill is one of them.
The British losing their empire was not so bad.
Sorry, am I expelled from this thread too?
My happiness has two most important things :what I can forget: and :My health: I want to forget much of world war 2 and the civil war, among the worst time in history. Wars solves nothing.
Winston Churchill had a patchy academic career. He was stubborn and impetuous, driven by ego, and sometimes unsympathetic to the plight of others, especially if they were not British or Christian. Some faults, including forgetfulness, carelessness and a lack of punctuality. He began schooling at aged eight, physical frailties made him an obvious target for bullies.
I don't like bullies too, but I could handle them.
Winston was accident-prone, suffering several nasty falls and, in 1931, almost a deadly car accident, yet he never cowed to danger. The Zionists Rothschilds set him up before and after as he was paid well.
Adolf Hitler, tried to offer Winston Churchill a peace pact. In exchange, the Nazis wanted to invade Russia without any intrusion from Britain, Britain began to be the enemy.
Half a century after his death, Churchill still stirring up controversy.
A statue of Churchill at the Capitol in Israel was erected. I think they should of added Hitlers too as Rothschilds supplied both side of the world war. Churchill’s long-standing support of Zionism, particularly appropriate that the modern state of Israel“ as he set the Zionist documents.
When a wave of anti-Semitism swept
A heavy winter storm descended on parts of the Middle East. Gaza Strip was destroyed during the seven-week Israeli offensive. Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War: How Britain Lost Its Empire and the West Lost the World ...
Hi Csatlepatoma, you have said it that you are not for Churchill. And, that wars solve no problem. However, the Gaza stripe issue is not the last war Britain fought as a power. I think it is the Falkland Island. So Britain still has some minor imperialism offshore.
I know she has lost large empires around the world like India and even the United States. Others are in West Africa. Some like the Falkland are scattered all over the world. Is the West the United State?
But as for Hitler, away with him anyway. I think he has been consigned to the bin. Not like the Great Churchill, when you just mention the name, he rises and goes viral. You are welcomed.
When I think of Churchill or Christopher Columbus, I think of them as heros in school.
After extensive research and study from building historical displays in museums. I did some peace work on Churchill and Columbus. You see clearly the deeper evil side thats not spoken about by deeply programed Nationaism.
Hi, castlepatoma, "...the deeper evil side thats not spoken about by deeply programed Nationaism." Is Churchill or Christopher Columbus not human and vulnerable? I read more on Adolf Hitler than this two personalities. But I had not pick a hole in Hitler's personality, like how he instigate and programme the last world war.
Recently, I received a twit lately saying Obama has lost 2 million Twitter fellows due to a hole in his personality during his presidential tenor. I refused to dig further. Who are does behind his mistakes or more appropriately his misdeeds? This happened to Churchill, Columbus, Hitler, and others.
We should learn to avoid such pitfalls, they cause, and so on. This is our business. All these serve as a good history lesson for mankind. Thank you, and you are always welcomed.
When you deeply research and study each of these historical men. You find they been selected as front men by puppeteer masters of the heirachary elitists hidden into secret societies. The human side of these men, started with good intentions then were corrupted by a far worst system of power.
Someone like Hitler has the reputation as the most evil person in human history. When you find all the players behind the Nazis party to the greedy Bastards elitists you will find white secrete society who came closest to NWO ownership of the world. Like white Russian, British and America empires up to date. Some people call me reverse racist, but these real evil white people give the majority of us white people a bad name.
Hello Castlepoloma, you heat the nail right on the head when you said these men start out with good intentions, but men in secret societies (godfathers?) got corrupted spoiled them.
That is the reason I said I will not dig deep into the past personal lives. But I for one will not excuse they downside. I did receive a twit again yesterday a judge ruling against Trump. Let's see if the President will side with the judgment or will he listen to his evil praisers? And become history too!
By seeing the big puzzle and writing on the wall. I am actually more optimistic than most, about the changing and turning of events in the world overall.
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