https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the … -election/
This is a pretty good article pointing out that the election could still have gone south for liberals had both candidates had to develop a strategy for gaining the popular vote instead of the electoral college.
The article still implies that it would have doubtful that Donald Trump could have won the popular vote even if the EC were not factored in.
I'm afraid it not only didn't imply that but it states the opposite of what you claim. I have no idea how it would have played out had their strategies been geared toward a popular vote. What I do know is that I would have accepted either outcome with more grace than we are observing.
Either way, your statement is another fine example of a left or right leaning individual gleaning only what shores up their belief and ignoring all else. Thanks for reinforcing that for me.
That is the point, nobody knows and to think that Trump would prevailed in a world where only the popular vote mattered is speculative at best.
You and I know, based on your attacks on the Clinton campaign that you would certainly not go quietly into the night if Clinton had won.
So, we did not like the outcome, millions of Americans did not, you won, sowhy all the angst? The right wing forces control both houses of Congress and can pack the courts with miserable right wing ideologues for a generation. I certainly remember the creation of the Tea Party, practically created the day after Obama's 2009 swearing in. So, I guess that protest from the right is always legitimate, but not from the other side?
I wouldn't have give quietly into the night? So you think if a presidential choice isn't elected then somehow I'm a loser? How old are you, anyway?
A nominee may run on a platform but if elected it is their responsibility to then look to the needs of the entire populace. Especially in this climate. Had Hillary won I'd have hoped for the best. I wouldn't be belly aching to this extent. I thought you were going to eat crow. What happened to that?
How old am I? Old enough
Whether Trump does look to needs of the entire populace remains to be seen considering all of his divisive rhetoric throught the campaign.
I hope for the best, but only a fool would not prepare for the worse.
Yes, I eat crow, but I am certainly am not going to choke on it. The burden of truth is on Trump to show me moderation as part of his leadership style. I have noted a few positive developments in regard to his position on a couple of key issues, so my log remains open. But, the pressure will be placed by the left as after all the right was not talking kumbaya after Obama was elected.
All fair enough, but I wish you weren't coming off as so bitter about it all.
L to L, I am not bitter, I just watching the unfolding developments carefully. I have to.
As we all should. Don't think I am entirely happy with the fact that Trump was (in my opinion) the lesser of the two evils. There are quite a few things that I don't like about Trump and are worrisome to me, as a woman. I'm watching it all like a hawk too.
You mean talk like ignoring 10 million illegal aliens, while opening the borders to as many more as want to come in and feed off the American trough?
Talk like "we want more of your guns, to placate the Democrats in the country"?
Or do you mean talk like allowing abortions up to the point of birth? (Stupid, but that IS what was said)
You mean divisive talk like that?
There are a few others, but the point is that this is defcon 1, and for the other concerns that you carefully did not mention, he is being watched and the protests will continue until we are satisfied that he does not veer off toward a fascist course. You right wing folks got what you wanted, and you should just be content to standby and watch.
Seriously , The protester are watching the course of the trump presidency ? Right , there aren't ten percent of the protesters who even know about the watch ! Rioters don't care about anything but rioting , you give them and their relations with yourself far more credit than due .
Republicans have never acted like the Democrats and as bad as I would have hated it I too would have had to accept it. It is embarrassing for other countries looking at our young people being so weak they cannot continue their studies but they can go out and cause death with no trauma at all. Honestly they remind me of their leader... so much!
LOL As doubtful, do you think, as it was that Trump would win WITH the EC? Before hindsight, of course?
Yes, nobody, even the finest of pundits caught on to the underlying trend that gave Trump his margin of victory. We all were blindsighted.
We certainly were! At absolute best I had hoped for a decent showing - maybe a reversal of what actually happened. Had no hope whatsoever that Trump would actually win, and neither did anyone else. I doubt even Trump honestly though he would win that election. (Which is likely why little preparation was made for the event!)
I agree that Trump probably never expected to win the nomination or the Presidency. We can only see what happens now and hope for the best.
What do you think about abolishing the Electoral college? Dems have lost two elections now when our candidates won the popular vote. The Electoral vote was from early America, when elitists wanted people to vote and have a sort of democracy, but be sure they could correct that if they didn't agree with what they thought the less intelligent population thought was best.
I am not happy abolishing it. Neither am I happy about keeping it.
The problem is that the majority did not get their way - 4 times in 200 years. That's not a major problem, but it IS a problem.
At the same time, the framers of our constitution were very concerned about the tyranny of the majority and wrote in many protections for the minority - one of those protections is the EC. Though the protection is tiny, it still provides some protection from the majority running roughshod over a strong minority.
What you point out is likely true, but so is that tiny bit of protection. The elitist concept had nothing to do with the makeup of the EC - that is all about a small majority taking control. And I find that is a valuable thing to have, so it becomes a difficult decision for me. On the whole I lean towards keeping it, but it IS but a small tilt. Perhaps much like the small protection offered.
So imagine that there is no boogey -man in the election process and progression , -----Except when one side tries to corrupt it , yet as Democrats tried hard to rig the system from the beginning of the primaries . The electoral college was a brilliant idea , that idea that protects both parties , the will of the people and the individuality of the original 13 colonies AND the present 50 states . The federal government , the constitution and the electoral protection of a republic .
The biggest problem today is that the very simplicity of this system works perfectly as designed , still. And yet the agenda of the losers mentality of either party always looks for the boogey -man in the wood pile. And guess what There 'aint one .
Stop waffling Wilderness, fight the force!
You would choose to keep the EC. It is only your defensive reaction to a challenge of your, (our), primal American instinct that we are all equal, we live in a democracy, we all get exactly one vote, majority rules, that make you quibble that you're not happy about keeping it.
I have a new 2nd-trick - Yes, but not for everything and not every time.
Points well taken. I just finished reading a book on the life of Thomas Jefferson, and from that gleaned why a sort of elite group feared less educated people could make a serious error. So this EC thing was on my mind lately anyway.
I hope you don't mind if I jump in on your "early America" thought. I can see where the `elitist know best' interpretation of their, (Constitution builders), reasoning can be drawn. And it may even be a valid explanation... as far as it goes. But I think it is an incomplete consideration.
As you wrote, (partly); "...but be sure they could correct that if they didn't agree with what they thought the less intelligent population thought was best." I wondered if a Trump popular vote win wouldn't have been a reason today's `elitists' would have shouted as a verification that the EC is needed.
In the early America you speak of, our form of government was new, the mechanisms largely not understood by non-political Americans, and the possibility of large state domination was very real. (and so was the possibility of demagogic manipulations). So I don't think the elitist perspective was as negative as we view it today.
Consider most non-Trump supporters, (I think there is a difference between Trump voters and Trump supporters), view Trump as just that - a demagogue. Consider how close Trump came to winning the popular vote - the difference was about 1 million votes - less than 9 thousands of a percent of the total vote, (I know about the .3 percent difference in votes garnered - that number includes non-Hillary or Trump votes - the difference is the comparison of only Clinton and Trump votes). If Trump did win the popular vote, and, he was the demagogue the majority thinks he is; then wouldn't you see the need for some possibility of a corrective measure - like the EC?
I worry about being a one-trick pony, but I continue to believe the original purpose of the EC was valid, and the need for it real, and I do not think the need or purpose has been outgrown. I think that those who complain about Trump's EC win don't understand that, (from my perspective), his success should be their proof that we still suffer the same human conditions now that we suffered back then.
Well, judging from the poor choices of cabinet people Trump is choosing, I have doubts about whether he knows what he is doing, but he is intelligent and a quick study. But the same thing happened with Bush/Gore too. The EC seems slanted in favor of the R party. I do understand we need balances, as I answered Wilderness, just had this on my mind from reading about our Founding Fathers and their reasoning. I like Thomas Jefferson, but he was an elitist who lived a much different life than his peers. He wanted to abolish slavery, but had a long term affair with his slave, Sally Hemmings. He decided to end slavery was the next President's problem, but did let all the children he had with her go free.Today's voters are more informed (though not enough vote).
I am staying in the safe-zone of the EC part of the conversation. So to your point that the EC seems slanted, to favor Republicans may be evidence that the EC is doing what was intended. There were no parties at the time, so the only slant it could have would be to the states; larger or smaller, more populous, or less.
Also, when going back in history before the Civil War, people forget or don't know that what was the Democratic Party now was the Republican Party then, and Vice Versa.
I'm hoping for the best. I think Trump will produce jobs, and possibly make good trade deals. The rest remains to be seen. It seems we will be seeing a lot more issues decided by individual states though. That makes life difficult.
The EC provides a distribution of voter influence. Without it, candidates would only need to focus or pander to the needs of the residents of 4 US states. The other 46 states' residents would be irrelevant.
I think there is a difference between predicting who will win and getting paid to promote a win and calling it a prediction.
It was real Americans tired of what we have been putting up with and wanting to see America back again. At least there is a chance. I don't think the left will be so displeased. They will still get to have all the birth control they want like they can't afford it but still, it will be furnished. I do hope they put planned parenthood making billions from body parts out of business. I am sure there is a better way and better people. The sooner the better. And wow, stopping lobbyist, isn't that the greatest thing in the world!!!
um... excuse me. Hellooo... I did, I did. If you recall, I was on the cusp of knowing it way back before he won the nomination. Remember those "Who Are Trump's Supporters?" threads. Remember those fed-up "angry anti-establishment" voters I spoke of?
Then, after the nomination, don't you recall those conversations where neither of us believed he would actually get the nomination, but I continued to voice concern about the power of that motivation?
Geesh! You never listen to a thing I say. You don't care about what I think. I'm just a heavy bag for you aren't I? Well, I'm going home.
You said that he had traction, not that he was going to win. Even you told me that you did not think he would get the nomination as he would not be taken seriously.
"Yes, nobody, even the finest of pundits caught on to the underlying trend that gave Trump his margin of victory."
I didn't think you were talking about predicting that he would win. I was responding to what you wrote. I guess I should have questioned whether you meant what you were intending to say instead of what you did say.
You see, more proof that you are just like my wife. She expects me to be a mind-reader too.
Sorry, not like your wife. But I clearly put the warning out for progressives of the danger of a Trump victory if certain events were to take place. They have and Trump has won. The thread I started in this regard must be 4 or 5 months old by now. But, I am too modest to refer to myself as the 'prescient one'.
I am not that modest. So own up. It was my supreme wisdom that allowed me to see the identify of the force you claim even "the finest pundits missed."
Ok, so I will own up, here was the link. Am I prophetic or what?
http://hubpages.com/politics/forum/1365 … mp-can-win
The elites thought they were unfettered in their quest for globalization with Hillary. Obama was passing Presidential directives to make his policies come into the light yet underestimated the angst and memory of those it left behind. Just because one says the country has to go a certain way does not make it a good leadership direction. With the good paying jobs exiting the country leaving many Americans behind and especially older workers, the unrest was begun. Youth will never understand the experience of years of a worrisome outlook into a less than rosy retirement and hearing that it will just be alright to allay their fears.
We have a lot of growing pains ahead of us as we transition into robotics and mechanized manufacturing but was it really a good idea to just ship the job overseas so suddenly and paying the poor in other nations to replace us before we were ready to make the full transition? Obviously we were not.
I hear you RH, it is just that Trump and his minions are having people blame their neighbors for their lack of employment, when the real culprits are the robots. That doesn't get to truth of the issue and is not leadership.
Were we to expect the greedy capitalist to consider such things? Of course not, only the "' bottom line" counts.
THE R O B O T S ???? I think they are greedy not automatic. Greed takes being
H U M A N ! ! !
I think it was more a matter of exploiting foreign labor pools by the Corporate mandate to go around unions and American wage standards. Trying to reverse that will be extremely hard as the Corporations have the money they need to mechanize and still undercut American labor. What is going to happen to three million truck drivers when Otto gets approval to displace the labor element? Taxi's will be next and when we start having robots that will clean our houses like the Roomba where will it end? Can we legislate our way out of that? We are changing and kicking and screaming all the way. Our consumer based society has demanded it and we want more, always more.
Trump and GOP are not looking for a solution, they are clearly on the side of this trend and if anything will exascerbate it. Traditional American labor is and will be on the receiving end of a forced checkmate.
Would people invite a tiger in their home on the hope it can be trained to be their pet?
You are right Trump is not the answer and neither was Hillary. It was old policy against older policy. Trump is back on the cut taxes and shrink government that his hero Reagan was. The direction the country is headed in is a direction where the elite only want to look out for themselves. That is fine but it is at the expense of the middle class. With stagnant wages and lowering taxes for the next rung up the ladder the middle class will be stung again only stagnating even longer. The time will come when the middle class will vote in its' own favor and maybe a Bernie Sanders style candidate will be there to lead. The run away greed that runs the country may be even understood by the masses someday and I hope I am alive to see it.
Unfortunately, the only thing Bernie would have done is dig deeper into middle class pockets. It always sounds wonderful to rob the rich and give it away, but the reality is that the middle class picks up the bills - the rich can afford to find ways around it, just as they did when the top rate was 90%.
I think it peculiar that this election mentioned nothing of the National Debt or any need to address it. If we keep cutting taxes especially to the rich how will it ever be reduced? Or is that a non issue anymore? True Bernie would have raised everyone's taxes and fought to cut out the loopholes you mentioned for the rich but how else do you intend to address the debt? Trump is going the same way Reagan and Bush went in the '80's and '90"s which will still result in taxing the middle class to make up for the many programs he want's to set in place and cutting the taxes for the rich.
Enough with the labels. "Liberals"? We're all Americans. Let's start with that.
For an political origionalist and a patriot I find it entirely entertaining and totally predictable that the left in America is now and is likely to be for awhile .......in election shock !
What did you tell yourselves all along at the obvious nature and massive bias of the media ?
You cannot say , older leftists at least , that you could not read the pendulum -swinging anger of the independent , the alt-right and the alt -left voter ?
I believe anyone in shock must have ben living with your head in a cloud . I mean help me out here ?
Nobody wanted to believe a person supported by white supremacists and who is a racist who lies about almost everything could win. Even though he turned it all around on Hillary. He even had the nerve to say she began the birther movement.
The man is a disaster. Everyone he is choosing as advisers has ties to other unfriendly countries. He's no better than she was. He's already trying to limit our first amendment rights. Of course, we only had two bad choices, which is disheartening. And I have no sympathy for the protesters on the streets, they should have voted to be heard.
Your first sentence could easily be swung to mean Obama's racist views and , for instance, the new Black Panthers and BLM activist -rioters ,supporters ! Your last sentence IS the only true on , They should have voted and now are whining why because they didn't even vote and lost besides ? Poor Babies ......Wgaaaaaa!.
Done some artist make up for film, wish I could fix you into a black man. Then send you out into the gettos world for a week. I wonder if you would survive?
My words can only be twisted by someone like you, ahorseback, who sadly spends all day and night trolling these forums for that very purpose. Trump doesn't have a clue how to run a government, and now he is still fighting to get his son in law security clearances, the highest ones. He needs someone to tell him how to do everything. And he is choosing all people for his cabinet that want to set the country back 100 years.
It is possible he will listen to everyone and do what he wants anyway. That would be the best outcome. I mean, really, Rudy Giuliani for Secretary of State? He did rise to the occasion on 9/11, but anyone in his position could have done the same. He can't run on that forever. And he's 80 years old, it's too old to keep up the constant travel schedule.
Trump is a bigot, racist who hates women and money is his God. This is who you want to represent our country around the world? Obama was beyond reproach no matter how childishly the R's treated him. Trump has the temper of a toddler. I would rather have Hillary any day.
ahorseback is not a troll. His roots go back to the revolutionary war as mine do. Its in our genetic code to fight for what makes this country independent, free, promotes low taxes and a highly percolating economy.
Trump is not a "bigot, racist who hates women and money is his God." You are guessing. You can't take him literally. Take him by the sincerity of intent to put the country on the track of success. He has made mistakes but that's how humans learn in life. I would rather trust someone who has gotten his hands dirty and then washed them clean before I would trust someone who never ever got their hands dirty … like most politicians or those who never wash them after they get dirty,
… such as the Hillbillerys.
So you are a daughter of the American Revolution, does that automatically make you and
Horsey some sort of super Patriots? And I suppose the rest of us our chopped liver?
We are being silly here, KH. Why are we guessing and you have all the facts? He is a race baiter that has proven just by his appointments the direction in which he plans to take the country. But he will face ever increasing resistance through demonstrations and protests. Let the revels begin right there in you domicile, California. His every outrage will recorded and televised worldwide, now that is exciting. The narcicistic SOB can't handle negative publicity and criticism, as it's bad for ratings. But, I will say he deserves an EMMY for his role as legitimate Presidential candidate.
Hillary worked tirelessly for children and women's issues. She was a First Lady, a two term Senator, Secretary of State, and is a lawyer as well. She is better educated and would have been a better choice for President. I did not call him a troll, I said he is constantly "trolling" sites to say nasty things to anyone with different views than his.
I also want this country to be independent and free. Do you think it will stay that way as Trump buddies up to Putin? Trump has already spoken about taking away our Freedom of Speech and Freedom to Peacefully assemble. I understand some of those assemblies were not peaceful, but the majority were. People are still in shock that a person so out of his sphere is in this position. It's great to bring in a fresh outlook, but I think this goes too far.
I have also seen footage of Trump listening thoughtfully in meetings, when he was just a businessman. Perhaps that side will come out again. For our country's sake, I hope so. But already trying to sue because his son in law can't have security clearance shows such ignorance that it scares me. Trump should have been gathering staff for the White House and learning what else the job entailed. He is a quick study. But if he continues to make poor staff choices and insult people, it does not bode well.
Also, I am not guessing, there is endless footage of Trump degrading women, insulting Gold Star families, showing intolerance for other religions, and calling people names like a schoolboy. Which brings up the point he was put in reform school because his parents and teachers in regular school couldn't control him.
We all underestimated the underlying hate and despair that drove so many to Trump.
I do not believe ahorseback is trolling.
We need Putin on our side and not against us.
If you do not trust who we have to nominate and how we nominate, that is another issue.
You are jumping to many conclusions regarding women who surely allowed themselves to interact flirtingly with someone as rich as he.
And his infant past is of no concern at this point.
I have been called a know-it-all. How come others who can't possibly see into the future, lament about what Trump will surely DO as President, are spared this accusation?
Open your eyes, you don't need a crystal ball to see that Trump's appointments have a strong correlation to how he will govern and what values are important to him and his droogies.
Open yours. You are guessing. He hasn't even been elected. Go throw a frisbee, I say. Maybe we can get the protesters to mellow out as well.
Throw a frisbee to a protester near you today!
If I am guessing, then so are you. If things are going to be thrown, they will not be frisbees.... No mellowing out, Trump is like gasoline poured on an open flame.
so what?!!! who cares!!!! what will burn??????? really what will burn????? ^ ^^ ^^ ^ ^^^
This Sessions fellow, avowed racist, in charge of the Department of Justice. That will bring back the old Civil Right Era marches and agitation, that is just one example of the flames to come.
I think I will go away and not come back until I see you are right. If I come back to the Forums it will be to say you were right and I was wrong.
ha ha ha ha …
I think I will go hang out at the park this weekend, though… or go find some protestors and cheer them up with a little frisbee throwing ... hand them some flowers… …
Are you really interested in the truth or do you cling to Trump and pronouncements like a puppet? I mean, seriously check out this one, guy, Sessions, and his record? Is this the kind of man selected by a President elect that would give you cause not to worry. But, again, you are Anglo and it might not concern you, I forget. Why do you think that those that are angry enough to protest are going to go away simply because you give them an ice cream?
It's true that women are attracted to powerful men. But you heard the tapes and his own voice talking about how he could grab them in their private parts, and that shows a total lack of respect. So does punishing a woman for having an abortion. Anyone who has no resources or has been left by the man who got her pregnant has been punished enough if she has to make that decision.
You can see the dangerous people Trump is considering for important posts. You want a segregationist to be part of the cabinet? You think his children or at least Ivanka and her husband Jared won't share info if he is given clearance? Don't you understand Sessions want to change the country back to the antebellum South?
I was willing to give him a fair chance, despite my disappointment at his win. Comey threw the election with his empty statements about the emails, and then made it worse by walking it back.
When I was 15, I thought giving people flowers and singing about peace, love and understanding would change the world. Grow up. Were you a Bernie supporter? I don't want to argue, and hope for the best. But it doesn't look good.
I read an article by a CNN journalist which gives two sides to the story. I realize the benefit of the doubt is difficult for some in this environment but some will choose to give it.
From where I sit, I cannot afford to give someone like this and by extension, Trump, the benefit of the doubt. Trump's attitude in regards to these appointments have removed all doubt.
I like would like you to share the sources of your information, pro and con, if you please?
This is the article I referred to.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/18/politics/ … index.html
I'm not saying the guy is a racist or that he is not. But, I cannot go by the screams from the left as if they are the only valid source who can comment. You have to admit that you are looking hard to find things to continue to complain about and we have to accept that we have a new president. You have every right to complain but you sound little different at the moment than the right sounded when Obama took office. We survived that. I think we will all survive this.
I am not looking hard, it is in plain sight. What about Steve Bannon?
I don't know about Steve Bannon, Credence. I'm not looking for the sky to fall either. If you have so little faith in our society and our laws that you think gulags are in our future and that chains are waiting for minorities then you will see the boogey man everywhere you look.
Give them a chance. If they are what you imagine them to be they will not last long and he will not see 4 years as president. But, I am not going to jump on the chicken little band wagon at the moment. Anymore than I would have had Hillary been the victor and the far right were running around in circles while pulling their hair out.
Yes, I have little faith, for justifiable reasons. I expect and prepare for the worse, while hoping for the best.
An OK article, I will wait fully expecting policies that are true to the Sessions that I have read about, I'll know when he hits the tripwire regarding white supremacy policy directives and attitudes. I will be watching with critical eye to be sure that he and the rest of Trump's scurvy crew does not get out line.
we are not fighting robots, so lets start there. we are fighting human blind ambition and greeed. How to do it is the problem. Is Trump really part of them?
We are all wondering.
Time will tell. why can't we just sit back, or go the park and throw a frisbee or something for the time being???
Live to Learn: You are my role model. I won't do the right thing until everybody else does. News Flash: It starts with you. It starts with me.
What are some of the many programs he wants to set in place that you know of ? You are acting like he is just like Hillary. Isn't that why we voted for him? He IS NOT just like Hillary!
What was/are the effects of cutting the taxes of the rich? The wealthy, (who work hard for their money, whether it was given to them initially or not,) are taxed according to their high incomes. Why remove their incentives toward their productive and beneficial-for-all ambitions?? Many of their enterprises grow the economy and provide jobs.
Economically , If Trump does nothing more than lower corporate taxes as he has promised to do , this country will thrive once again . That is the simplicity of American economics , Want a job , there has to be jobs around . The simplicity of that and Obama's apparent lousy business comprehension , baffles so many on the left , I don't know why .
From traveling a 100 countries and had girlfriends of every race, and have no personal problems. Live and let live except when it come to harm or greed from bullies.
Your Lord said the root of evil is the love of money. Who in the world brags and loves money more than Trump?
Then from every race, gender, environmentist, religion and faminist in the country voted lopsided against an orange Donald Duck. Only christian white males lopsidedly vote for Trump. I can't imagine another famous person to represent a more bigoted and racist human being according to these kind of facts.
Trump won't share with all these kinds of people. He will only share with his world's most famous bigotry, greedy tyrants and racist Zionist friends. Only hope is the rest of the Government US or Russia kicks out both Trump and Putin a_s out. Or the Resolution must and surely will.
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