Illegal Alien - Politically Correct?

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Elynjoposted 14 years ago
Hoopla. Most of the people these days are trying so hard to be politically correct and refused to call a person who entered the United States illegally an "Illegal Alien" for fear of being branded as "racist". For me, if you're illegal, you are illegal. No sugar coating, no nonsense. It is unfair for other immigrants who entered here legally. Just a thought.
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  All Americans are one-time immigrants. Their timing of immigration may vary. But all are migrants from other parts of the world, especially UK. So, let them enjoy the available natural resources in a vast stretch of land originlly owned by red-Indians. There can be no illegal and legal in an unquestioned area, if and when red-Indians regain conscience and become politically sensitive. (No chance).
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  Elynjoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  See, you are one example of the people I mentioned here who doesn't know the definition of "Illegal Immigrant" and "Legal Immigrant" I'm sorry to say but if the Indians regain conscience and become politically sensitive, according to you (although I am part Indian myself) then that would be the time I will look for another country to migrate to, but hey I'll do it "legally" and not just cheat my way to become part of a society who knows that there are immigration laws to follow.
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  JYOTI KOTHARIposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Sivagna,
  When a poor or weak do it, it is called illegal but when a rich or mighty do it, it is called victory.
  
  When Columbus came here in America, no one in this land had given him the authority to do so. He does not have any papers or documents from the natives. However, Americans celebrate Columbus day and abuse so called illegal immigrants from Mexico or some other places.
  By which law Americans attacked Iraq second time? By which law the fought against a tiny and weak country Vietnam for 18 long years and tried to destroy it?
  
  Might is right, my friend!!
  
  Jyoti Kothari
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And a good thought it was.
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  its about timeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree and <snipped personal attack>
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  Colebabieposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You still running around here? Geez 89 minutes and you rule the forums.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are correct. My 4.0 GPA and Mensa level IQ are part of a vast conspiracy against right thinkin' Bubbas who love Dubya'.
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  livewithrichardposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I've never met an illegal alien...but really, how does an
  extra-terrestrial become legal without causing world wide panic? They have to do what the illegal immigrants here do, they sneak in and try to blend. Besides all the "alleged" abductions, who are they really hurting?
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  Elynjoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh I don't know who they are trying to hurt, you have to read Phoenix, AZ newspaper and ummm I don't think there are "allegations" about abductions there because they are really happening in Phoenix not to mention Alabama now too. BTW, I am watching AMW right now, it's there too, if you miss it you can always watch it at hulu.com. So I don't know which "alleged abductions" you were referring too. If it is about extra-terrestrial, I can point you to Steven Spielberg's direction better yet I can give you a tour of Area 51 here.
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Specificityposted 14 years ago
I agree; it's a good thought.
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tksenseiposted 14 years ago
The issue of Native Americans is complex and important in many ways, but I don't think it is legally or practically relevant to the topic of illegal immigration.
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  Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, except for the fact that most coming up from Mexico ARE Native American (Indian). They are the ones that are so poor they feel like no matter what they make in the US, its better than what they come from, in general anyway.
  
  And the Indians in America ARE extremely politically aware already, BTW. Living well by this point, however, due to Indian gaming and other tribal enterprises.
  
  I really have no problem with the term 'illegal immigrant,' as it is a status terminology. Unless someone is using it in a derogatory sense towards somebody of another race.... And I'm way lefto, lol!
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  First of all, I've not seen any definitive breakdown by ethnicity in that manner and am doubtful one would even be possible.
  
  Second, even if true, that does not mitigate the legal status issue at hand.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The "living well" is only a percentage of Native Americans, and there is still a great deal of poverty, crime, and addiction on reservations in the US.
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RKHenryposted 14 years ago
It has nothing to do with political correctness. It's about manners more than anything. As far as I'm concerned they are just immigrants.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You don't see that they are 'illegal' whatever you want to call them?
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And you? Where's your family from? When did they become Nationalize? Got documents? Are you a mixture? If so, I'd like to see each one of your family's nationalized papers. I'd like to know the how, where, what, and dates.
  
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Moonchild60posted 14 years ago
They are ILLEGAL immigrants and It does matter. Where I live in is costly to the area as we are not dense enough in population all year round to support the services they use and do not pay for. Additionally, legal immigrants take great pains and wait a long time to do it according to our laws. Do I sound racist just because I am being honest? Here's the flip side. It is scary being here illegally. You are afraid every time you see a police crusier and god forbid you get pulled over. They work very hard long days and usually 6 days a week if not 7. Yes, they do the work Americans feel is beneath them, on the other hand they do not pay taxes. There are two sides to this story and so far, no solutions. But the bottom line is this, they are here illegally and not for nothing but all our ancestors who came here as immigrants were LEGAL immigrants. (In America that is) There is the right way to do things and the wrong way, but perhaps if our government didn't take literally about 6-8 years for all your paperwork to go through to become legal, more immigrants would do it.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That was an excellent post with many good points.
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Websenseposted 14 years ago
When an immigrant comes in the front door with all the proper documents, they are legal. My wife is from the Philippines and she did the police report, medical report, and all the forms and proof (I did most of the latter). We are waiting for an appointment for the last thing - biometrics - then she will have her unconditional permanent residence (green) card.

When an immigrant comes in the back door or breaks through a window at night to enter illegally, without any documents - no police or medical reports, etc. then they are illegal immigrants.

Shamefully, President Obama refers to these illegal immigrants as "undocumented" immigrants. No mention of their illegal breaking into the USA. No mention that every adult illegal immigrant breaks a lot of laws while they are here illegally - driving a car without a license and/or insurance, working illegally, etc.

Disgracefully, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi refered to a group of illegal and legal immigrants in San Francisco as the USA being 'their' country. In NO WAY is the United States an illegal immigrant's country. If they had a passport - which they didn't use - that passport is for a different country. I was born here of American parents, so I am NOT an immigrant - this is my country. Immigrants who pass the citizenship test are also Americans - and can say America is their county.

Both President Obama and Nancy Pelosi are a disgrace to the government office they hold. Do they have an agenda? Could it be if those illegal immigrants became citizens, they would vote as Democrats? Even Acorn using our money couldn't get that many votes for Obama and Democrats!
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Leta Sposted 14 years ago
Yeah, though, TK-- Things have changed drastically for the better since 1995, when tribal gaming was allowed. I just happen to have recently done research on this issue...and I live among a few tribes here, incidentally. (TMG, a financial guy and hubber who also happens to be Native, could also back this info. up....) I could even tell you about the Native Desert food movement improving the incidence of disease and diabetes among populations here, since I'm publishing an article about it for a local publication, , but I won't, lol.

And according to that research also, and my Native American studies classes, yes--those immigrants coming up from Mexico are most likely to be Natives. (Also from an informal survey of those who come to work the big construction jobs here--welcome to Arizona world).

But yes, in my mind, none of this mitigates the terminology or use of 'illegal.'
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Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years ago
The American revolution was an illegal revolt against the "legal" authority.

Harboring escaped slaves was once illegal.

The bombing of Hiroshima was legal according to U.S. law.

Jesus committed many illegal acts during his brief Earthly existence.

These brave people who risk everything to make a better life for themselves and contribute so much to our culture and financial well being are among my friends and neighbors. I, and the rest of American society are better off because of their presence. Labeling people who are returning to a land stolen from their ancestors seems rather pointless. The current border and political designations of this area are not eternal.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And bank robbers are just 'brave souls risking everything and searching for a better life.' Their ancestors were robbed some hundred years ago so they deserve to take whatever they want regardless of the law. The bank robbers will go out and spend money and stimulate the economy. The particular bank in question won't be there forever, so what the heck.
  
  Come on now, a little reason please.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You compare people whose only crime is a lack of documentation to bank robbers and declare that it is MY argument that lacks reason? The lack of grace and compassion in your position is stunning. You spew venom toward people who have done you no harm. Your side of this issue has been championed many times throughout history. The fact that it always loses is testament to the charitable nature of mankind.
  
  As people like Rush Limbaugh, Sherrif Joe, and their followers continue to stumble blindly toward the margins of society, may they take comfort in knowing that they will be treated better than they have treated others.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The people I mentioned are those whose "only crime" is robbing banks. Is your "only crime" nobler than mine? As for "spewing venom," I fail to see where I have spewed any. I am very much pro-immigration. If you cannnot see the distinction between legal and illegal immigration or feel that any such distinction is 'hateful,' then that is your (very serious) problem.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you don't see the reason, it does not mean reason is not there. It means just that - you don't see it. For whatever reason
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  maven101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Too funny, Mischa.....
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Sufidreamerposted 14 years ago
People over here used to complain about Albanians, until they realised that they do the jobs that nobody else wants to.

Without illegal migrants, the country would soon grind to a halt.
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  Websenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We can be pro-immigration - but that is pro-legal-immigration. If the government is not working fast enough to process immigration visas, or don't allow enough visas for the workers we need, then the government needs to improve how they do immigration.
  
  Illegal immigration creates a lot of problems - commiting crimes while hiding from the law, needing services that citizens must pay for, etc. Plus, illegal immigrants will be taken advantage of by "illegal-acting" employers. Documentation is very important. Do the illegal immigrant have a police record from their country or a disease that could be cause a problem in the USA?
  
  It's very important that the government control immigration, like who is allowed to immigrate here based on moral character, lawfulness, healthiness, occupation, etc. Illegal immigration violates our reasoned control of immigration. We have the Rule of Law, and we oppose the Anarchy of illegal immigration.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for the giggles
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  Websenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Seems like every country has the right to set immigration laws and policies. But illegal immigrants go around the laws and policies. That means the illegal immigrants Rule! I say NO to that. The governments must Rule!
  
  And somehow you got a giggle out of simple logic? Strange!
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If that is what you want over there - we are quite happy with things as they are over here. Why change something that works?
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nope - Don't see it. Albanians are hard-working, build great houses and contribute to the economy. The country would fall apart without our Albanian friends.
  
  Of course, it is bandit country over here, and we are lawless barbarians
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  Staci-Barbo7posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As a paralegal, I've seen many situations where illegal immigrants 'take advantage' of multiple systems here and in their home countries. They come to the United States without proper documentation and often remain here under a pseudonym, while breaking employment and government ID laws. They will accept pitiful wages 'off the books' or work as an 'independent contractor' without paying taxes and Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security, yet they will accept free health care from the State, usually in county clinics or in hospital ERs. If caught drunk driving or committing a crime, they will often flee to their home country if not detained without bond. They will remain in their home country as a fugitive from U.S law enforcement officers and courts until investigations on their crimes have been closed, then they will often return to the U.S. illegally once they deem it safe.
  
  Remember when your parents told you as a child, when you tell a lie, you have to tell another and another to cover it? That's what happens with illegal immigrants once they are here in our country. Only it's not lies, but crimes.
  
  I believe the problem is the lack of will in our country to prevent the illegal immigration in the first place, which stems from the widely held view among government and citizens that the immigrants provide a valuable service to the economy - on balance - combined with the sporadic enforcement when law enforcement officials do locate illegals on American soil.
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  Websenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Very Good information in your comment. Obviously America has a real problem with illegal Aliens. The government needs to provide real fixes and solutions.
  
  My Suggestions for the US Government:
  1. Secure the borders
  2. Stop employers from hiring illegal aliens so they can pay them low wages. Therefore, the wages will be higher, and there will be legal workers to do the job.
  3. Deport all illegal aliens, including their American-born children. Children are under the control of their parents, so they have to go with their illegal alien parents back to their own country. Document the American-born children, and when they turn 18, they can immigrate to America - learn English - and take the Citizen test - and be US Citizens.
  
  Also, for air-head Nancy Pelosi's benefit, by deporting the children with the parents, then the big, bad, Immigration Police won't be pulling any babies from their mother's nipple.
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Bob Cedarposted 14 years ago
"People over here used to complain about Albanians, until they realised that they do the jobs that nobody else wants to. "

It's like the situation here in America. It's not that people don't want to do the work, they don't want to get paid what illegals do, and the people making out the paychecks don't want to pay people higher than what they pay the aliens. And illegal aliens isn't a racist term. A person could perfectly match Hitler's description of the perfect Aryan person and they are still an illegal alien. I just think that because Mexican people are the most well-known of the illegal aliens (here in America), people think anything you say about illegal aliens is the same as putting down the Mexican people.
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No problem with the term - illegal or undocumented is semantics.
  
  Probably different here - the Greeks really do not want to do the work. The Albanians here are paid well, and a high court ruling stated that they were entitled to the same minimum wage as the Greeks, even if they are here illegally.
  
  My undocumented Albanian friend ordered some business cards off me last week, which paid the electricity bill. Happy Days
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  Bob Cedarposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sweet!
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  Elynjoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sufidreamer:
  
  Are you saying that your life is made possible by undocumented Albanians?
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am saying that they contribute to the economy in a positive way. Without undocumented Albanians, the economy would shudder to a halt
  
  Even better, there was enough money left, after paying the bill, to buy some Ouzo. Happier days
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Colebabieposted 14 years ago
Very nice Sufidreamer. Mind sharing?
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not a problem - It is the finest Ouzo, from Lesvos
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  Uninvited Writerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ah...those Lesbians
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There was a big court case, a couple of years ago, when a couple of idiotic Lesvos natives tried to obtain an injunction, preventing homosexual women from calling themselves Lesbians. The rest of Greece laughed at them.
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  Uninvited Writerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I heard about that
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Colebabieposted 14 years ago
Haha...Thats funny. If I drink Ouzo from Lesvos will I become a lesbian? I think it would take A LOT of Ouzo.
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  Uninvited Writerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You can become a Lesbian if you move to Lesvos
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  Elynjoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  hehe @ Colebabie
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Trust me - three Ouzo's and anything could happen - It is potent stuff and should be handled with care.
  
  UW - It was crazy. Lesbian women spend a lot of money visiting the island. Even the rest of the islanders were bemused - a case of biting the hand that feeds.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's true. After 3 Ouzos I became a lesbian. It was actually quite easy in that I already own the flannel shirts and am attracted to women.
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Colebabieposted 14 years ago
Yup that would be the only way. I don't think I would mind living in Lesvos. I could take a break from Florida for a while.
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Klnikstaposted 14 years ago
illegal alien, illegal immigrant, both the same they came into the country the wrong way without permission
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Research Analystposted 14 years ago
I don't think anyone wants to be called a "Alien"
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William F. Torpeyposted 14 years ago
Any child born in the United States is a citizen. Citizens cannot be tossed out of the country willynilly.

Emigrants from Mexico are enticed by U.S. employers who act illegally when they offer slave labor wages and unconscionable conditions to undocumented workers. People who decry "illegal aliens" but turn a blind eye toward the illegal behavior of employers reveal a significant lack of concern for the workers' plight and, often, a hint of racism.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well stated. The issues concerning immigration and legal status are much too complex to deal with in simple, reactionary terms. Compassion and empathy will go a long way toward reducing the problems. Most citizens of this country are so as a result of many illegal, immoral events (land-grabbing wars, genocide, forced removal of native peoples) None of us has the exclusive right to claim ownership of this country when all such claims are tainted by the bloody history of its creation and expansion. Our society works best when it is most inclusive and least judgemental.
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  Elynjoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't see that calling an illegal alien, an illegal alien is being judgmental, if you are an American citizen and by calling you as an American citizen am I being judgmental?
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Of course, especially in the context of this discussion. You are inferring that I have a right to be here and that the other group does not. (a position that many contributors to this exchange would surely agree with)
  
  Moral and legal issues aside, how about the practical matter of trying to remove 20 million of these "illegals" and keep them out. Is that even remotely possible? I would assume that most of you who consider these people to be undesirable are totally against the idea of amnesty.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  well, if you are a citizen or legal resident then you DO have the right to be here, and if they are illegal aliens then they DO NOT.
  
  Pretty straightforward.
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  Elynjoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Here's a short logic of what you just said: If I say African American, I am being judgmental. Wow! If I say American Citizen, I am being judgmental and if I say Illegal Alien I am being judgmental too, that is sad. Thanks for the logic, not that I learned something from it.
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  Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, to some extent, to both of you.
  
  Still, with regards to the initial post, illegal alien is a legal term--I do not have to be racist or even subtly racist to use it. If it makes my fellow liberals feel better, and the term has been denigrated so much, 'undocumented alien,' as the Obama admin. espoused is just fine, too. It is STILL a legal term denoting status--and one that is necessary to even have a conversation.
  
  And check the blood, the colonialism, etc., etc. Of course a discussion of illegal immigration must necessarily go beyond a support of the disenfranchised and decry for it all. One significant point that >perhaps< you don't realize that the rich have no problem with illegal aliens being here--it well supports their way of life. Another fact is that not all employers are paying (at least here, and at least not to those illegals coming from Mexico)them slave wages. Some of them are earning quite livable wages under quite livable conditions. Many own houses here, ie.
  
  The real issue that I see is that keeping things the way they are (again, in the interest of the wealthy...and sometimes gov't) has the rest of us at each others' throats, and quite approaching things the wrong way. On this issue, at least in this post, I definitely can see stereotypes of liberal and conservative bent playing out....wow.
  
  He said it best who said "this is a very complex issue." Probably by far not addressed well enough in a forum post.
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  Staci-Barbo7posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  William, great points. For the record, I do not do business with businesses that I know hire undocumented/illegal alien workers. I admit to a profiling-type initial screening, with my citeria being whether or not the employees can speak good English. If I am in doubt at that point, I ask the owner of the business whether his employees are legal. They always say 'yes' but their demeanor and explanations give them away if they are being untruthful.
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  Websenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, The Supreme Court has never explicitly ruled on whether children born in the United States to illegal immigrant parents are entitled to birthright citizenship.
  
  And there is nothing willynilly about illegal immigrant parents being deported - and they Take There Children With Them. What are you suggesting - should they just leave their baby in the crib while they are deported? Children should be with their parents, and guess what? The parents are going HOME - to THEIR country - which is NOT THE USA!
  
  AND there is NO SIN involved in the actions of the government of a country deporting illegal aliens.
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  calebdposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Umm the Fourteenth Amendment says "all" are. I'm not sure which part of all you don't get. There's no reason for the US to revoke jus soli.
  
  There's no sin involved in deportation and I don't think anyone's arguing the "sin" involved. It's simply a procedure followed when dealing with illegal immigrants. Folks I know who were departed (granted, this is a very limited sample) simply entrusted the child to someone else's care. They eventually came back for them.
  
  Providing folks with an easier path to citizenship is what ought to be done. It takes around fifteen years currently.
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  Websenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment states, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States...". Notice the phrase, "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof".
  
  During the original debate over the amendment, Senator Jacob M. Howard of Michigan—the author of the citizenship clause—described the clause as excluding not only "Indians", but also “persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers.” Howard also stated the word "jurisdiction" meant the United States possessed a “full and complete jurisdiction” over the person described in the amendment. Such meaning precluded citizenship to any person who was beholden, in even the slightest respect, to any sovereignty other than a U.S. state or the federal government. Hmmm, seems like All does not mean All.
  
  Also, the meaning of the Citizenship Clause was tested in the case of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), regarding children of non-citizen Chinese immigrants born in United States. The court ruled that the children were U.S. citizens. BUT, the distinction between "legal" and "illegal" immigrants was not clear at the time of the decision of Wong Kim Ark. Neither in that decision nor in any subsequent case has the Supreme Court explicitly ruled on whether children born in the United States to illegal immigrant parents are entitled to birthright citizenship via the amendment, although that has generally been assumed to be the case. In some cases, the Court has implicitly assumed, or suggested in dicta, that such children are entitled to birthright citizenship. Nevertheless, some claim the Congress possesses the power to exclude such children from US citizenship by legislation.
  
  Modern dispute:
  In the late 1990s opposition arose over the longstanding practice of granting automatic citizenship on a jus soli basis to American-born children of illegal immigrants and tourists as fears grew in some circles that the existing law encouraged parents-to-be to come to the United States to have children in order to improve the parents' chances of attaining legal residency themselves. Bills have been introduced from time to time in Congress which have sought to declare U.S.-born children of foreign nationals not to be subject to the "jurisdiction" of the United States, and thus not entitled to citizenship via the 14th Amendment. But, they have not passed. The last 3 Bills were in 2005, 2007, and 2009 - so the iron is still hot for this issue.
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  LondonGirlposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's increasingly uncommon, that form of citizenship.
  
  The UK chucked it in 1983, and Ireland more recently.
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  William F. Torpeyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  It's not so easy in the United States to toss out our Constitutional provisions.
  
  Also, in response to others, no senator, nor even Congress can change the Constitution except by the very difficult amendment process. Neither can the Supreme Court change the Constitution; it can only interpret it.
  
  Undocumented immigrants, by the way, pay plenty of taxes -- of all kinds, including payroll and sales taxes.
  
  With all the illegal activities that have been going on in the United States over the past few decades -- including the Savings & Loan scandal and Enron and all the other corporations whose CEOs are now residing in prison, as well as the most recent banking, mortgage and hedge fund scandals, one has to wonder why "illegal aliens" are being singled out for derision and anger.
  
  Bottom line: If you are born in the United States, you are a citizen. Period. The Supreme Court can choose to review that very clear provision, but it cannot change it without doing a double somersault.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, not ALL kinds.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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goldentoadposted 14 years ago
I'm of Mexican blood, but a mojado is still a mojado to me.
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Websenseposted 14 years ago
Screw Political Correctness!

President Obama's use of the phrase, "undocumented alien" is deceptive - as it does not reveal the reality that these aliens came here illegally and live here illegally. What part of "illegal" does Obama not understand? Oh, that's right - that is his intent - to create a false concept in people's minds.
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tksenseiposted 14 years ago
Sort of like using "Man Caused Disaster" instead of 'Terrorism'?
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Websenseposted 14 years ago
Hey, Obama could refer to "illegal immigration" as "Man Caused Disaster" too. Then when Obama mentions "Man Caused Disaster", we won't know if he is talking about "Terrorism" or "Illegal Immigration". Wow, Obama would be in his "element" - working the 'Con'. :-)
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Leta Sposted 14 years ago
OK, LOL. This is where I part ways from you both. Yep, they are not here legally. But I don't think Obama (or whoever wrote that in his admin) has any intention except to avoid the negative stereotyping that some are prone to with the term 'illegal alien.'
Language gets denigrated and connotations of words change (and usually for the worse), all the time.

'Undocumented' means has no papers....and as there are actually various stages of an immigrant becoming legal, and documentation to attain such--it is not a cut and dried process--it's >almost< a suitable a term and NOT just political correctness.

But I've got to say--as something of a revelation--I do see where you conservatives/libertatians can stereotype us liberals, . Wow. Course, I've always seen how we can stereotype you guys, lol
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Sufidreamerposted 14 years ago
Must admit - I prefer undocumented migrant, although will not criticise anybody for using illegal alien. Merely semantics.
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maven101posted 14 years ago
And I thought we were a nation of laws....breaking a law is illegal, by any definition. Manners, sentimentality, ethnic considerations, have nothing to do with characterizing these folks as illegal aliens that ignore our sovereignty as a nation, ignore our laws, that do not take their turn in line as millions of others have had to do before them. Almost everyone coming to this great and wonderful nation do so for economic challenges.

Get in line, take your turn, learn our language if you hope to succeed, and become an American, not a hyphenated American. Love our flag, our values, and our history...otherwise, stay where you are..
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, by all means, stay where you are, let your family starve so that you can follow our sacred laws, swear blind allegience to a piece of cloth, and pretend that our history doesn't include the genocide that made it possible for all of us "real Americans" to live here. You Illegals should know your rightful place in this world - scapegoats for all that's wrong with our country.
  
  USA! USA! USA!
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I assume YOU have no doors or windows on your house, and if anyone of an ethnicity with a historical grievance (which of course would be everyone) were to approach you and demand all your money you would gladly and humbly hand it over with all due apologies?
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, I need a little help with this one. Your anger toward these people has something to do with your fear that they will someday take your money and strip your house of its doors and windows? I may have to move to that island where the lesbians drink Ouzo and they aren't fixated on people's documents.
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tksenseiposted 14 years ago
Think on it for a bit, I'm sure you'll get the point.
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Websenseposted 14 years ago
Illegal Alien - Politically Correct?

Back to the original question - Is the term Illegal Alien Politically Correct?

First, if some act is illegal, then there is no problem calling it illegal.

Illegal Alien is 100% correct: a foreigner(alien) who is here illegally.

Illegal Immigrant is about 75% correct: Immigrant refers to a person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence. It implies that the person is legally migrating to become a permanent resident. But the word, "illegal" counteracts the implied 'legal' of immigrant. It actuality, Illegal Immigrant could be considered an Oxymoron. But the federal government likes to use this phrase.

President Obama actually uses the phrase, "Undocumented worker". He was using this term in reference to employers and workers, so with e-verify, the employer is only concerned about the potential worker having proper documentation - not legality, which would be the concern of the government. So Obama makes a fairly correct statement when refering to employer/worker. But of course, he ignores the fact that the worker and family are here "illegally" 24/7/52. This is very deceptive, which is Obama's nature.

He is also using factual distortion to give people a wrong or confused idea. In one of his speeches, he said there were 12 million undocumented workers, then stated we will not deport 12 million people. So what is it - workers or people? There could be 12 million workers, but their children and/or spouse living here may not be working. So Obama intentionally confuses things. If there are 12 million illegal aliens here, then maybe only 6-8 million are workers. Or does 12 million refer to 12 million workers PLUS their families. Obama is a master of confusion - keep your eyes on his right hand and with his left hand he is stabbing American citizens in the back. If we are feed confused or wrong facts, then we will build upon it confused or wrong conclusions.

So the more correct phrase is either Illegal Alien or Illegal Immigrant (since the Feds like this one).
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The question asked whether the term was politically correct not technically correct. Political correctness is a term invented by right wing ideologues who frequently get criticized for their lack of civility.
  
  Speaking of the president, according to the on-line Merriam-Webster dictionary, it is technically correct to refer to dark skinned people using the "N" word. (yes, I realize I'm not technically correct in my terminology, but civility sometimes gets in the way of technically corect terms. If you are more comfortable with the technically correct term, feel free to re-type your copy of my post before printing it). The technically correct term used to be used frequently and in nearly any situation. As our society has matured and become more educated we have driven this term to a disturbing place - rap music. The day will arrive soon where the IA term will also be excluded in all polite discussions. Why not start now? Why not start looking for real solutions to the problems? ( a moat filled with alligators doesn't count- try again)
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  Websenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So when an intelligent person points out the use of double-talk (language constructed to disguise or distort its actual meaning), then they are criticized. It was the progressives who used deliberatly ambiguous language to call Terrorism by the phrase, "Man-caused Disaster". Progressives created the "Politically Correct" term - to hide it's true meaning - or to hide the fact that Progressives lack a backbone when dealing with Terrorism. Intelligent people can 'see' when people use deceptive language to hide what something like "Terrorism" really is. Obama is a master of using words to deceive and confuse people into believing false ideas. It's a Gift!
  
  Likewise, the Progressives don't like "Illegal Aliens/Immigrants" - they prefer, "undocumented immigrant" or "irregular immigrant" or "unnaturalized Immigrant". Progressives hate the "Illegal" word - it's like a big hair ball stuck in their bleeding-heart liberal throats.
  
  Illegal is Illegal - get over it!
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Like the previous administration using 'Collateral Damage' and 'Friendly Fire' to mean 'Lots of Dead People.'
  
  I get it - that's Political Correctness
  
  Undocumented Migrants is a term used by the international community, so using it for your partisan argument is a little unfair. If you want to use the term Illegal Alien, that is up to you - I have no problem. Personally, I prefer to call my friends migrants, because they did not arrive in UFO's.
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  Websenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The international community is irrelevant since each country has it's own set of immigration laws. So there is no common set of words or phrases that work for all countries. Example: The USA initially didn't have much in the way of immigration laws. People came by boat and lived their lives here. They were foreigners. There was no such thing as legal or illegal immigrant, and also no such thing as undocumented immigrant. Also, the dictionary definition for Alien is a foreigner - nothing to do with UFO's. Maybe you've been watching too many science fiction movies. Since no Aliens from outer space have landed on earth and introduced themselves to us, these aliens are simply imaginary. Let's stick with what's real.
  
  Likewise, legal migrants introduce themselves to us, and are welcomed. But Illegal migrants do not introduce themselves to us, and try to be imaginary - except their real and illegal presence here causes many problems - and the government doesn't get a chance to check their background (friendly, unfriendly, criminal, terrorist, drug smuggler, etc.). Thus, they are Illegal foreigners, Illegal Aliens, Illegal Migrants, Illegal...
  
  The key operating word is "Illegal".
  
  If the Albanians coming into Greece illegally were criminals(no one is checking their police records), robbers (to survive), driving drunk without insurance (and having accidents), using 'free' services (free to them but not to the taxpayers), using false IDs or stealing Greek citizen IDs, etc. then maybe you would start to call them "Illegal" Albanian migrants.
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Or you could always stick with answering the points instead of going off at a tangent. No reply to the 'Collateral Damage,' then - obviously your partisan vitriol does not apply to the Republicans. As stated, I do not actually have a problem with your views, only you twisting them into a partisan argument. You could try actually reading my words - it helps
  
  But the Albanians coming into Greece are not criminals, so the point is moot. In fact, the local policeman sits and drinks Ouzo with them The crime rate in this part of Greece is practically zero, so we must be doing something right. The Albanians work hard and contribute greatly to the economy, so we prefer not to call them illegal aliens, but friends.
  
  Again, I stated that I personally have no problem with you using the term, but you ignore that because you are too busy having a little angry rant and trying to score political points.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That particular term is not really partisan, as it is terminology used by the military long before George Bush became president.
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  Elynjoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Our US Immigration is still using the word "Alien". To look closely on those immigration visas and forms, they are currently using these terms "Resident Alien" "Non-Resident Alien" and "Alien Visa Number"
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sure - maybe it is a dialect thing - divided by a common language! We are aware of that use of the word 'alien' over here, but rarely use it - immigrant is pretty much the universal term. Illegal alien automatically brings up the image of ET parked in a disabled space or something.
  
  As stated, I actually have no problem with 'illegal' or 'alien,' but tend not to use them. Just trying to make a comment about political spin generally - pretty much all politicians use it now, so to isolate the current incumbent is a little unfair.
  
  I am a documented migrant and proud!
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  Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  OH! So you actually had a political axe to grind, didn't you Sufi? And where are you storing your 'alien' space ship? Behind the pink house?
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  I do occasionally get involved in politics! Mind you, it is much more fun at the local taverna, shouting at Kostas the Goat Herder and Nikos the Commie
  
  The spaceship is cunningly disguised as that little church behind the house. My crew pose as Albanians
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  Elynjoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sufi,
  
  Don't take me wrong, I have nothing against legal/documented immigrants, I have friends who legally entered the country.
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sure - no worries on that score. Immigration is a topic that needs rational discussion - nothing in your comments suggests that you are in any way racist, and your arguments are well thought out
  
  The problem with this thread, only in my opinion, is that it is too partisan. Whether the current incumbent calls them illegal or not is pretty irrelevant. Studying the effects of undocumented/illegal migration is a hot topic of research and, in academic papers, language must be neutral, so 'undocumented migrant' is the standard term. No cover up, just protocol
  
  Since joining Hubpages, I have realised how little I care about US internal politics. Much easier to buy some popcorn and watch you guys shout at each other.
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  Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah! What the Kiwi said... And it is sometimes fun, Sufi.
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have given up having any input on US political discussions - really cannot be arsed any more. Too many loudmouths with no real argument.
  
  We have enough of those at the local taverna - I can pick a fight with Kostas the Goat Herder any time I want, and enjoy a beer afterwards
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  Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah...that's the problem with internet. No drinks served.
  
  Oh, well...I have made the same declaration about the religion forum, .
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  Elynjoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  More enjoyable to watch us I know, we can eat popcorn and shout at each other at the same time.
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  Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL! This is probably the most 'patriotic' statement I will ever agree with.
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  Websenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Or you could always stick with answering the points instead of going off at a tangent. No reply to the 'Collateral Damage,' then - obviously your partisan vitriol does not apply to the Republicans. As stated, I do not actually have a problem with your views, only you twisting them into a partisan argument. You could try actually reading my words - it helps
  
  Sufidreamer - Actually you went off on a tangent - 'Collateral Damage' and 'Friendly fire' - are not related to Illegal Immigration (the topic at hand). If you want to go off into a falsely associated Hate Republican/Bush tirade, then go ahead and open another Hate Bush forum. Bush is not in office now, so why waste the effort.
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I believe that the topic of the thread is political correctness, not just illegal immigration. As far as that goes, I have no opinion on Mexicans immigrating to the US, if that helps.
  
  As for the hate Republicans thing - I could not actually care less about Republicans or Democrats. I am non-partisan about US politics, only the parts that afect the rest of the world. Ask me how much I dislike Al Gore.....
  
  I did not like Bush's foreign policy - the jury is still out on Obama. I liked Clinton for his work in bringing peace in Ireland - what he was like as a US president, I have little idea. That is how I judge US presidents - their impact upon the world stage
  
  EDIT: Web"sense", I think that also answers the second comment - no opinion about US immigration policy
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  Websenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sufi"dreamer" - wake up - My comment was hypothetical - "If the Albanians coming into Greece illegally were criminals...". What then?...
  
  And since you don't think the Albanians are criminal, then your situation in Greece is not relevant to the situation in the USA, which is the real topic at hand. It's nice to know what is happening in other countries, especially if it's relevant. So, sit back, sip Ouzo with your Albanian friends, and stop dreaming long enough to clearly "read my words".
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  Elynjoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Here is the link that shows our Immigration is still using the term "alien"
  
  http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/ … 18190aRCRD
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Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago
I understand the USA has problems with many Ilegal Immigrants in particular Mexicans which makes it very difficult for other Countries to legally apply and be processed quickly.
I understand they are also understaffed too? they shouldnt be ,its not like their are not enough people who would be grateful for the job.

My personal issue is how confusing it is just getting the necessary forms sent to me. I hate all the automated robotic calls ,where are real people anymore?

Alien just means Foreign ,I dont have a problem with it.
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Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago
How bout something simple like

Inny's or Outty's
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Mishaposted 14 years ago
Yep, I am a non-resident alien, and proud of my flying saucer, but have to hide it in the garage to avoid unwanted questions
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  Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I knew you were one of those among us innocents, Misha. No sense denying it now!!
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Anna Marie Bowmanposted 14 years ago
Frankly, I am sick of all the politically correct bull crap that is being spewed by so many these days. They snuck into this country, violating our laws by doing so. They committed a crime by coming here. That is illegal. They take jobs, despite the fact that they have no visas, no social securtiy numbers, and no legal right to take a job. That is also a crime, and is illegal. They drive cars with no driver's license, and no insurance. That is also a crime, and it is also illegal. To say that we should be compassionate is one thing. To protect them and say that this is their country and they deserve rights is another. If I break a law, I expect there to be consequences. I expect to pay a fine, go to jail, etc. They are not citzens. If they commit a crime, they should expect the consequences. The consequence for being here illegally, and being caught is deportation. Why is it politically incorrect to enforce the laws of this country?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  They snuck into this country
  Almost impossible via Airports,and now theyve introduced ESTA( good thing) which is another electronic check BEFORE you leave your country of origin (saving money and time re deportation) also doubles up on security so no dubious exchanges or fraud ( passport,changing identity,swapping passengers en route to destination etc).
  Were you meaning Mexican Aliens ?
  What is this new Amnesty law I heard recently being offered.and will that be offered to everyone? or just certain people.
  There was also someone I read who spoke about lobbying Congress on behalf of Mexican/Hispanic Students ( who arrived initially on student visa's) demanding full rights . I wish I coul remember more details,but at the time I thought thats wrong ,why dont they pay like everyone else ,certainly the American students would be but the more important thing is
  How is it they have that option ( to lobby) in the first place?
  
  I fully accept that until I apply for Citizenship ,I will not be granted certain privlidges,my husband ( American) was treated the same way when he lived in New Zealand. It is called the laws of the land as you explain well.
  
  Heres another opinion , my 17 yr old son feels that one solution is to completely throw out Immigratatin altogether and let people travel/live wherever they want too.
  Everyone gets taxed,everyone has the responsibility to find their own healthcare and the onus is on the Employer to be accountable to the IRS. Certainly save millions on deportation and managing a very over-loaded Government Dept.
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LondonGirlposted 14 years ago
I use the term "illegal immigrant" as a term of legal art in my work. And, more frequently, as they have different meanings, "illegal entrant" and "overstayer", and "failed asylum seeker".
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  Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We are a 'wordy bunch of wombles' lol
  
  Thankyou London Girl I understand defination is important, just cant help wondering though does it make our lives better or clutter it up more ( generalising)
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  LondonGirlposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think, if used properly and with care, it enables more precise and concise thinking and communication.
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cindyvineposted 14 years ago
In China a work visa is called an expert certificate, so instead of being an alien here, I am an expert. I quite like that!
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The folks we are talking about are also experts, so I will start using that term. They are experts at avoiding rattlesnakes, scorpions, and armed drunken rednecks with peculiar ideas about what constitutes a threat to our country. Heck, we could even compromise and call them illegal experts.
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  Websenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wake Up! A "work visa" is a Legal Non-Immigrant visa for people allowed to live and work in a country because they provide certain work expertise. A "tourist visa" is also a legal non-immigrant visa - they come, they tour, then they go back to their country. Legal Non-immigrant visas have nothing to do with Illegal Immigrants who enter without passport, without visa, and without documentation, yet they want permanent residence status. Yeah, they are experts at entering the USA illegally, and living in the USA illegally. Their "expert certification" would be for the position of "criminal", specializing in identity theft, creating or buying false identification, lying on employment forms (Are you a legal resident?), stealing services - like school for their kids and free health care, driving cars illegally, etc.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, I admit it you are correct. Anyone who finds a way across the border, and breaks one ridiculous law, (please see earlier posts regarding LAWS aginst helping escaped slaves etc.) is by definition a criminal mastermind. They are intent on breaking as many laws as possible and their only reason for being here is to set up their elaborate criminal enterprise. The threat has been uncovered, thanks for making us all safer.
  Please be aware that if you are in the state of Arizona and one of these people you despise so much asks you for a glass of water, it is ILLEGAL to refuse the request. I'll bet that's one law you are willing to break.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How nice for you that you get to decide which laws are legitimate and which are "ridiculous." You're just like the illegal aliens in that regard.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm like them in many ways. I'm more concerned with justice than technicalities. Like them I am also tenacious and will not be discouraged by those who concentrate their efforts on scapegoating rather than finding solutions. If you were to succeed in your efforts to deport all 20 million of them and never let another one in, who would you blame next? See they don't just cut your grass, they give you a convenient excuse for your irrational fears.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So concerned with justice that you violate laws, lie, cheat, and steal?
  
  So tenacious that instead of tenaciously making your way in your home country you violate the sovereignty of another? Is that the solution that all that concentration is focused on?
  
  Blame for what?
  
  What irrational fears? (and I cut my own grass, thanks)
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  Websenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ron - Wow, seems like you like to ignore what Pro-Legal-Immigration commenters are actually saying in clear language, and then claim we have terrible motives and that we despise them, and would like them to die of thirst. BULLSHIT! All those false accusations come out of your paranoid mind. None of these commenters view our immigration laws as ridiculous. None have expressed that the illegal immigrants 'are intent on breaking as many laws as possible'. None have characterized these illegal immigrants as criminal masterminds. None have stated that they despise the illegal immigrants, and none want to see them die crossing the borders illegally.
  
  We have been stating clearly that the USA is a sovereign nation and has a right to have immigration laws that should be obeyed. We think that aliens who cross our border illegally and try to live here illegally will out of necessity have to break laws about IDs and applying for jobs. We recognize that many of the illegal immigrants are not drug smugglers or terrorists (but the US government must have immigration laws to especially keep out the real bad criminals and terrorists). Illegal immigrants need to be deported back to their own countries. Amnesty would require a police report, and if they have been obtaining IDs illegally and doing other illegal activities - out of necessity - while living here illegally, then they would fail the police report. So there could be no amnesty for them - they must be deported. We don't want to see them killed or die of thirst trying to get into this country - but we want them to LIVE in their own country and do things legally next time.
  
  I do not despise or hate the illegal immigrants - just their illegal activies. My wife came her from the Philippines - Legally. She did not have criminal charges on her Police report. She will make a good citizen. She got all the IDs legally - SSN and driver's license. Even with my wife doing things legally, I have PLENTY of suggestions for improvement in how Immigration is handled. Improvements - not dismantlement.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly right! I know a great many illegal immigrants, and have worked with literally thousands; the great majority just wonderful people. That doesn't change any of the facts some of us have been trying to raise here. Most readers have no idea how long and laborious the process of coming to and staying in the US legally really is. Some of the unreflectively idealistic folks here need to ask someone who has braved the time, expense, and frustrating delays of legal immigration what they think about folks who feel entitled to 'jump the line' for whatever reason.
  
  I thought by now we'd at least be talking about education, health care, public safety, culture, crime, and employment but instead we are still stuck on "you guys are so mean!" Ai~ya.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for your reply. Screaming an obscenity and making a personal attack on me are not helpful to the discussion. Explaining your background on the subject re: your wife's immigration status,and your opposition to the amnesty proposal is. I will carefully examine my future posts before submitting them to make sure that I haven't characterized you, tksensei,or others from that side of the issue as ditto heads, nativists, or ignorant rednecks constantly watching for black helicopters. Perhaps you will grant me the same courtesy?
  
  There is common ground to our thoughts on the larger issue. (I know the forum started with the simple question of terminology, but that conversation seems to have run its course):
  
  1)The USA is a sovereign nation regardless of the history that made it so.
  
  2) The USA does need effective border control. The threats of violent gangs and terrorists are real.
  
  3) We sort of agree that not all of these people are drug smugglers or terrorists. You say many, I say overwhelmingly most.
  
  I have asked before and now do so again; as a practical matter, how do you deport so many millions of people? Is your goal to remove all immigrants without proper documentation? Has any country ever successfully deported even 1 million people?
  
  Again, thank you for your response. This forum is the most enjoyable and enlightening of any I have participated in at hubpages.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The constant refrain of "you can't get them all out!" sort of misses the bigger point. Stop MORE illegal aliens from coming in and then the question of what to do with those already here becomes more manageable.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But it will still have to be faced. How would you do it?
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Start by controlling the borders, first of all. A number of illegal aliens are here with the intention of making some dough and then going home. Some are planning to bring the rest of their family here. Over time they will weed themselves out. After that, give a damn and empower local police to check folks who are arrested or stopped for traffic violations. Do the incredible detective work of going to places where day laborers gather and conduct random checks, go to companies that obviously hire large numbers of illegals (and bring the hammer down on the owner as well as deporting the illegal workers). You don't have to find and deport all bajillion illegals because when it becomes clear the government now gives a damn a good portion will just go on home. If you do this while stopping 'new' illegals from coming in, the numbers will trend downward.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That was actually logical and strangely devoid of bank robber references. Thank you. If you apply real numbers to this scenario and factor in birth rates it would take many years, perhaps centuries to accomplish, but we'll see.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Children born here would not be illegal aliens, would they? You're just not trying, are you?
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  Websenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are correct - I should have said "most". I try to be accurate in my choice of words, especially words like, "none, a few, some, many, most, all". "Most" of the illegal immigrants are coming here to improve their "lot in life", but doing it outside the law. If only a million immigrants came here illegally, it might not be noticed, but 12-20 million is a "deal breaker".
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tksenseiposted 14 years ago
Emphasis on the "illegal" part. The 'Expert Visa' for China is because the Chinese government issues it to people they have invited to work in the country and who have skills they think the country needs. Try sneaking from Burma into China or vice versa and see what happens.
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Rockwell Fitnessposted 14 years ago
I think "THE GOVENATOR" is an illegal immigrant.

But I know that the pizza delivery guy, two of my neighbors, the janitor at church, the paper boy, that guy on the corner selling strawberries, the guy who drives the lunch wagon, the old ladies i have to fight with to get that item at the garage sale, and the last 3 girls I dated are all illegal immigrants.

"We're Coming to America" -- Neil Diamond
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This has been my point all along. I know many of these folks and none fits the stereotype that many on this board portray. Our community has been greatly enhanced by their presence and I don't take kindly to the ignorant disparaging comments tossed so recklessly at them.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  What stereotypes? What ignorant disparaging comments recklessly tossed?
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Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago
What was the question again? lol
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Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years ago
Yes, laws often need to be violated for justice to be served. Jesus as one example viloated many laws that were unjust. More recently Martin Luther King did likewise. You just pepetuated the stereotype when you branded all 20 million of these folks as liars, cheats and thieves.

The sovereignty of this country was established by a long list of illegal and immoral acts, thus making this the weakest of your arguments.

You really shouldn't be cutting your own grass when you are worried so much about my friends. If you would employ them they wouldn't have so much time to conduct their crime sprees.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, it is your position that the immigration laws of the United States must be violated in the name of Justice? You are saying that laws limiting and controling who comes in and out of a country are inherently unjust? That is what you seriously believe?
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You have badly misrepresented my position. Nothing I have written even resembles your characterization. Take a deep breath, concentrate, and try to ask a logical question about my position. I will be happy to respond in kind.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You could just go ahead and answer those questions and we'll take it from there.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, because of your take on US history, the nation has no right to control or defend its borders? Are you serious?
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, that isn't even close to what I believe or what I have written. Yes, I am serious.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then why do you assert that pointing to the sovereignty of the nation is a "weak" argument because of illegal and immoral acts in the nation's history? If you don't believe that equates to the nation having no right to control or defend its borders then how does it relate to immigration in your mind?
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I believe I have answered many of your questions in my reply to websense. On the issue of sovereignty being a weak argument on your part, it is so because you seem to see it as paramount. From my point of view, the well being of my fellow human beings is of greater importance regardless of documentation. You have stated that "we" have a right to be here and "they" don't. Why?
  Laws? Our own leaders break laws as they seem fit. Without knowing much about you, I can predict with 99.9% accuracy that you have broken a law. Laws are a flimsy excuse to perpetuate suffering for millions of people. "We" are in this country not by our own efforts or by achievement, but rather through a set of cosmic circumstances beyond our control. "They" were born elsewhere for the same reasons. All of us, we and they, are at a pivotal point in history. At similar points in the past we have gained materially, and lost a great deal morally. I would like to see us do better this time.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Then you advocate open borders? That would seem to contradict your previous statements.
  
  So laws (including and especially those pertaining to ensuring the sovereignty of our nation) are not important and need not be followed because some politicians have broken the law sometime? Are you an anarchist?
  
  What a load of bull that is. An awful lot of peole are here because someone sometime in their family busted their ass to come here legally and make a life for themselves and their family with respect for their new homeland. If some people are here because their ancestor was an illegal alien who made it through, that does not justify scrapping immigration laws any more than having a bank robber grandfather means you ought to be able to waltz into a bank and stuff your trousers with 20s.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  By coming here and living here illegally they have in fact lied, cheated, and stolen. That is a fact, not a stereotype.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Fact? No. Contortion of logic? Yes. Learning the difference will help you in your quest to formulate an effective argument.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Fact, yes. Deny reality all you want if that soothes your emotions, but the facts remain.
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Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years ago
Your abilty to mischaracterize opposing viewpoints is amusing but ultimately useless in a debate. You don't like and can't effectively argue against my points so you mangle them into something you can handle. Why the constant references to bank robbers? What do bank robbers have to do with undocumented immigrants?

My point: US sovereignty and protection of its borders is necessary, but must be provided for in a way that does not contribute to human suffering.

Your Counter-point: Then you advocate open borders? That would seem to contradict your previous statements.

With the proper motivation you could have formulated a logical response, but for some reason you chose to inaccurately describe my position so that your off-the-cuff retort could work.

My point: Our laws are not infalable, we all break some during our lifetime. The ones that unnecessarily contribute to human suffering need to be changed, and until they are there are circumstances where they should be broken.

Your counter-point: You think all laws are not important? Are you an anarchist?

If you insist on applying labels to people, you should at the very least understand what the label means. A person who opposes unjust laws and advocates changing them cannot by definition be an anarchist.

My point: Some cosmic force (you may choose from God, Mother Earth, or pure luck) put each of us where we are today. Who could argue that they chose to be born here and now?

Your response: A rant about bovine excrement and again with the bank robbers.

I'll give you a Mulligan on that one. That shot went so far into the woods that you deserve to try again.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm, let's see...
  
  ...they both break the law?
  
  Come on, you could get some of these on your own
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We already have laws providing for refugees and asylum seekers. Beyond that, you ARE talking about open borders because there will ALWAYS be someone on the other side of the border "suffering" because their country sucks worse than ours.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  In other words, YOU decide which ones "unnecessarily contribute to human suffering" and that would seem to include our immigration laws judging by your own words. You keep angrily denying your own position and then repeating it in other words.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  When you presume to pick and choose which laws to follow and which not to, then in effect ALL laws are rendered powerless and guess what that means?
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not too obvious an avoidance there...
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Research Analystposted 14 years ago
What?
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Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago
lol:lol:
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Websenseposted 14 years ago
Illegal Alien - Politically Correct?

Back to the original question - Is the term Illegal Alien Politically Correct?

The answer - from the Progressive point-of-view - is No.
They don't like the word "illegal" and would prefer how Obama calls it, "undocumented workers", which of course hides the illegalness of these "undocumented workers" and the fact they are aliens. Progressives want to change the language.

Consider the words of Glenn Beck in his book, "An Inconvenient Book":

"Being politically correct is not just a cutesy attempt to make people feel better; it's a larger, coordinated effort to change Western culture as we know it. Early Marxists designed their game plan long ago and continue to execute it today: Control the argument by controlling the language. Those with radical agendas understand that plan well and are taking advantage of an over sensitive public."

Glenn commented on his show today that he would say the same thing about Progressives as the Early Marxists.

I agree with Glenn Beck. Progressives (they are in charge of the Federal Government right now) want to change the language by the use of Political Correctness. I say we stick with the language - say what we mean - be frank - tell it like it is. Illegal is Illegal. Once we recognize that simple concept, then we can move forward with solutions.

Maybe we should Deport those who want to DECEIVE people by the use of Political Correctness. :-) We could get rid of a lot of undesireables, like President Obama, Nancy Pelosi, many Democrats and Republicans, Planned Parenthood (Pro Choice is Anti Life of the unborn baby), etc.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Doesnt make any difference what or how Illegal is addressed.
  If Pres.Obama wants to call them Jack in the Box he can.
  The whole purpose is to get ALL Aliens,Non- Americans documentated! is it not?
  I consider Pres.Obama most desirable to the chaos of the last 8 years thankyou very much ,and obviously the majority of Americans do too.
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  Websenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  NO - ABSOLUTELY NOT - NEGATIVE
  
  Where did you get that screwy idea from? Have you been drinking that Obama mesmerizing kool-aid non-stop? Take a break and eat some solid food.
  
  Here is Ron Paul's suggestion on Immigration and Border Security:
  
  We need TRUE immigation reform - not open borders - not 60 million overnight citizens who will vote for their Savior, President Obama. OK, I exaggerated with "overnight citizens", but it will happen much faster then 'we the people' want.
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Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years ago
Web,

Are the undesirable Republicans you speak of the so-called RINOS?
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  Websenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I found a couple RINO (Republicans in name only) lists. Seems like they don't like moderate Republicans. They actually have John McCain and Ron Paul on the list. I like Ron Paul - he seems to actually be an honest politician. But I think we all should dislike dishonest, corrupt, partisan, career politicians. They don't represent the people! Too bad we can't deport them.
  
  How this country should be governed is not as simplistic as Democratic/Republican partisanship or Liberal/Conservative Polarizing reactionaryism.
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Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years ago
documentated?
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Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago
well for someone who doesnt care you sure have had alot to say ( earlier) lol
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Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago
the popcorn was that bad huh (lol)
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  Sufidreamerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol - still a good spectator sport!
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SweetiePieposted 14 years ago
I remember when I first understood what the term illegal aliens was when I was in the six. At first I was really confused about a news report because I thought they were talking about aliens from outer space, which these people clearly were not. My mom had to explain what it was to me, and I just remember thinking it was sort of a harsh term even then.

Personally I would never illegally immigrate to another country, but I have never lived in the extreme poverty that some people do, which prompts them to leave their country for a better future. Thus, we literally have to walk a thousand miles in someone's shoes to understand why they do the things they do, and you would be surprised how differently you would view the world during changed circumstances.

During the fires in the San Bernardino Mountains this really hit home because we nearly lost our houses, and friends actually did. I always thought it was quite funny when some anti-immigration advocates took brooms with them to go "sweep" the border at a protest rally. Come to think of it that was my ex, and he was kind of a jerk.
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  Elynjoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am aware that they left their country and entered our country hoping for a better life, but that is no excuse to just ignore our immigration laws. "Stealing" is a crime, it is illegal, if you say "I stole" to better my life, that is still illegal. Now before any of you say I am branding illegal immigrants as "robbers" or "criminals" I am not, I am just comparing legal vs.illegal. If we expect all other countries and their citizens who are experiencing tough life to just enter our country illegally then why bother issuing visas? What made those illegal immigrants from Mexico special? Why can't we apply this to all citizens of the world? Why would the spouses of the US Citizens wait for years living separately for their immigrant status and immigrant visa so they can be together? Why not just let everybody enter our country with no documentations at all?
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well said, good post.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How is referring to illegal border crossing as "stealing" substantially different from labeling the immigrants as robbers or criminals? Are the choices really between current law and simply letting anyone in who wants to come?
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Illegal Alien - Politically Correct?

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