Who supports illegal immigration?
Maybe even bigger letters the next time will make your points true. If I did not know better I would swear you believe I am a liberal. I wonder if "W" thought that when he got my vote twice during his presidency.
Don't be a tool.
Howdy Retief. Nice to exchange views with you once more.
Let me see now. “CONGRESS CAN DO NOTHING…Lefties don’t live in reality.”
Wrong on both points. According to your posts, you are among the few who still deny what is actually happening in this country.
Nearly 80% of Americans, including Republicans by the way, believe their representatives in Congress are NOT the best persons for the job. Wow, in March that number was 78% and it continues to climb. In November 2009, only 67% of Americans felt that way.
No wonder you feel you have to shout in uppercase to get people to believe you. Your posts are disconnected from the realities on the American political landscape and from the real sentiments of the American public.
About 75% of voters believe their representatives do NOT deserve to be reelected or they are otherwise wavering and undecided. Wow! That ratio was 71% in March and it too is a new high. In November 2009, 58% felt this way.
So, tell us again in upper-upper-uppercase this time why the Congress is not part of the problem. Or, did you not vote for your congressional delegation either?
“In fact, only 14% of voters think most members of Congress care what their constituents think, and only slightly more (21%) believe their congressional representative cares what they think. These numbers, too, have been trending down over the last four-and-a-half years and are now at new lows.” {1}
When rhamson wrote:
“Obama can't do a thing about it with this slimy congress anymore than the revered Bush.”
Your smug reply was:
“You are completely and absolutely wrong and you will never acknowledge it.”
Well, it seems three-fourths of the US electorate agrees with rhamson while your posts, obviously, are not only out of touch with reality but they deny reality even exists.
I thank you again, Retief, for your many contributions. All, except for the uppercase rants, are appreciated.
{1} http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ … erformanceGood evening, Retief.
I will review a few documented facts with you that may have escaped from your reality.
In an uppercase rant, you shouted the following: “HE HAS RESPONSIBILITIES HE REFUSES TO DISCHARGE. YOU WILL NEVER SEE IT!!!!!!!!!”
The president of the National Council of La Raza, Janet Murguía, criticized President Obama’s immigration policies by calling him the "deporter in chief." While you may have missed reading her quotes, be sure not to miss the facts behind them as well.
President Obama, the man you claim has not been doing his job, has deported 2 million undocumented immigrants since taking office in 2009. Based on his monthly average, he has deported undocumented foreigners in much greater numbers than did his predecessor George W. {1}
This unsupported false claim is typical of the many found in this thread: “Is the President of the United States responsible for the execution of existing laws…
This President is openly ignoring those responsibilities…”
Since last October, 52,000 children and teens have been apprehended by Border Patrol agents. About 11,000 were from Mexico and they were immediately returned to their home country as prescribed by law. The minors from countries other than Mexico are being held in Border Patrol stations in Texas and Arizona, or in other emergency facilities set up by the Department of Health and Human Services. This, too, is in compliance with the law signed by President Bush in January 2009 that grants all immigrant children the right to be screened by an immigration judge before being deported. {2}
Therefore, Retief, examining the facts confirms how the President is indeed fulfilling his responsibilities and is respecting the law. What the President needs to expedite the processing is emergency funding from a GOP controlled House suffering from rigor mortis. In stark contrast, your solution is to deploy our war weary military after the President has been working for six years to get them to stand down from two useless wars.
“It is a primary responsibility of the President to employ the military to secure the borders. All have been reluctant to do so, Obama especially so. He has demonstrated time and again that he has little interest in the law…”
More opinion driven rhetoric unsupported by ANY facts. President Obama’s interest in the law is made evident by his continuing efforts to expand the number of US Border Control Agents particularly in the Southwest sector. Recent data from the US Border Patrol indicates agent staffing during the Obama administration increased 22.2% to a force of 21,391 since the last year President Bush held office. The current staffing places 86% of all agents in the country along the Southern border. {3}
Now you put yourself in charge of writing the President’s job description. “Little transpires at the border of the United States that is outside the legal, Constitutionally charged responsibilities of the President. This President is openly ignoring those responsibilities.
Surely, you must be aware that you are not an authority on interpreting “the legal, Constitutionally charged responsibilities of the President.” Those of us living in the real world know we are neither an authority nor an expert when it comes to gauging the duties or the powers of the President. Even the US Congress is limited under the doctrine of separation of powers found in the first three article of the Constitution. You may wish to read about them here: {4}
Finally, the President is not “openly ignoring those responsibilities” simply because one passionately vocal citizen is unable to tolerate a fundamental principle of our republic, namely, the person who gets elected as the President gets to steer the ship of state for the next four years.” Under our two party traditions this means sharing governance with different ideologies.
Furthermore, among the variety of principles legally embedded in the President’s responsibilities are the principles of Prosecutorial and Enforcement Discretion. Like it or not, this means agencies of the government are permitted to interpret how much latitude of discretion is available beyond the clear, expressed, and specific guidelines prescribed within a law.
A Congressional Research Service report prepared for members and committees of Congress advises members, “even agencies that do not prosecute or engage in law enforcement have been recognized as having discretion (sometimes referred to as enforcement discretion) in determining whether to enforce particular violations.” {5}
Therefore, rather than being an evasion of responsibilities, enforcement discretion is a legally valid exercise of the President’s responsibilities when performing the duties of his office.
I hope, Retief, you are enjoying your summer. Personally, I am trying to determine if the summer is half over or just half started. Hmm.
{1} http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 … portations
{2} http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/orr/pro … t#overview
{3}
http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/ … 2-2013.pdf
{4} http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_sepp.html
{5} http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42924.pdf
Hi Wilderness. How are things going in your neck of the woods?
I think it is fair to say that not all knowledge comes to us through our own limited life experiences. Most comes by our going out of our comfort zones and searching for truth.
“ What is the procedure used to pay federal income taxes without a SS#? Or FICA taxes? Or state income taxes?”
Most illegal immigrants are “documented!”
The Center of Immigration Studies answers these questions in a report written by Ronald W. Mortensen, PhD.
“ Illegal immigrants are not “undocumented.” They have fraudulent documents such as counterfeit Social Security cards, forged drivers licenses, fake “green cards,” and phony birth certificates. Experts suggest that approximately 75 percent of working-age illegal aliens use fraudulent Social Security cards to obtain employment…Most (98 percent) Social Security number (SSN) thieves use their own names with stolen numbers.”{1}
Now that we know how they do it, let us look at the results. The 11.2 million undocumented immigrants living in the US pay nearly $11 billion in federal, state or local taxes each year. In 2010, the State of Idaho reaped about $27M from the earnings of undocumented workers. I wish I had a dollar for every time I posted these facts in this forum.
“Undocumented immigrants currently contribute significantly to state and local taxes, collectively paying an estimated $10.6 billion in 2010 with contributions ranging from less than $2 million in Montana to more than $2.2 billion in California. This means these families are likely paying about 6.4 percent on average of their income in state and local taxes.” Passage of a comprehensible Congressional Immigration Reform Bill would add 5 million legal workers and would increase this revenue by at least $2B a year. {2}
Foreign workers not residing in the USA lawfully pay Social Security taxes even thought they cannot qualify for retirement, disability or survivor benefits. {3}
So, Wilderness, who benefits from this? The federal government reports illegal workers have “contributed up to $300 billion, or nearly 10 percent, of the $2.7 trillion Social Security Trust Fund” against which very few claims will ever be filed. {4}
I have covered Social Security numbers, Federal, State, and Local Taxes, and FICA. When combined, this comes to more than $25B/year. It is hard to imagine that some in this forum still think undocumented workers do not contribute to America.
Then you said, “About all an illegal can do is pay sales tax,” which you just learned is completely untrue and then you add insult on top with, “and that's ONLY if the state they're squatting in has a sales tax.”
Well, Wilderness, illegal immigrants generally do not squat. Furthermore, they usually go to great lengths not to attract “official” attention to themselves. Which makes this whole sentence from you worth diddly-squat. Nearly all non-agricultural workers rent houses and apartments or they own homes. Either way, directly or indirectly, they are paying real estate or renters taxes in every state in which they reside.
Finally, Grace had this contribution to add: “+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000!”
Although I hate to bring this to your attention, I believe Grace gave three more zeros to GA then she gave to you. <j/k>
Stay well, Wilderness, and enjoy your summer. Here in New York we are in August and still waiting for prolonged warm weather. Maybe there is some truth to those global cooling claims.
{1} http://cis.org/IdentityTheft
{2} http://www.itep.org/immigration/
{3} http://cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbof … s/s744.pdf p.30
{4} http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/magaz … l&_r=0Hi Wilderness!
I certainly hope you are not suggesting that I, or anyone else, said using a forged ID is right. In addition, if you already knew most illegal residents used false ID than why did you ask, “What is the procedure used to pay federal income taxes without a SS#? Or FICA taxes? Or state income taxes?”
There is no reason to believe this portion of your post is true: “I also understand that some actually pay income taxes, at a rate far below what the rest of us do.” You understand? Are you stating a fact or an assumption? If it is a fact, please show us a source that supports it. If it is an assumption, it is useless speculation not worth consideration.
The wages earned by illegal workers using a false Social Security number are subject to the same tax rates as the rest of us. There is no special rate for illegal workers. While claiming a large number of dependants may reduce the income tax withheld by a little, everyone contributes to Social Security at the same rate.
“- does that mean they are supporting themselves when they use the same ID to get welfare checks, food stamps, section 8, etc?”
Is this a fact or another assumption? It is always so difficult to tell because immigrant bashers NEVER offer any data to support their outrageous claims. In my last post, I supplied data showing how illegal workers 1) contribute about $25B a year from their wages to the Social Security trust funds and federal, state, or local governments; 2) pay the same sales taxes as US citizens; and 3) pay renter’s and/or property taxes. In response, you continue to drone the false mantra, “they invade the US to get welfare checks, food stamps, section 8, etc.” Nor have I ever seen a study that found that they do. Do you know of one?
Your gut feeling misleads you into thinking, “there isn't a chance in the world that an illegal family of 5 or 6, using the welfare system while paying minuscule taxes off of near minimum wage, is actually a net value to the country.”
By all available measurements, immigrants are NOT freeloading moochers. You believe illegal immigrants give nothing and just take from society and you ignore reams of studies that prove you are mistaken. One study estimates that deporting all illegal foreign workers in Arizona would reduce the state’s gross product by $13.3 billion! According to your wisdom, eliminating immigrants should improve the state’s economy.
Arizona's Cronkite News points out that Arizona "could be throwing away millions in potential tax revenues by trying to drive illegal immigrants out." In a feature article, they note that "a new report challenges the argument that illegal immigrants are a drain on Arizona's economy."
The paper is referring to a study titled "The Consequences of Legalization Versus Mass Deportation in Arizona," which envisions dire fiscal consequences for Arizona without its undocumented workers. {1}
The study explores in depth just what would happen to Arizona’s economy if all of its 211,000 undocumented workers were deported vs. the results from their ultimate legal status. It compares the significant gains if reform legalization occurs to the major economic losses if total deportation became a reality.
Among the study’s findings, mass deportation will result in an annual $6.25 billion reduction in AZ wages leading to $2.4 billion in lost tax revenue on top of a $13.3 billion cut in the state’s gross product output. In contrast, just legalization of the undocumented, not citizenship, mind you, will increase wages in the state by $1.8 billion and will produce $540 million in additional tax revenues from nearly 39,000 newly created jobs.
Rather than doing the necessary research, Wilderness, people cling to their false notions that immigrants do not contribute to our economy, the majority does not work and earn wages, and most just come to the US to leech from the Gringos. Wrong! So wrong!
I find a common characteristic in a lot of immigration discussions like this thread. Emotional political postures or fear-driven rhetoric always exceeds intellectual inquiry by a large margin.
{1} http://www.scribd.com/doc/104334578/Dep … in-Arizona
Hello again, Eric.
Do you know that your numbers are bogus?
May I please have your sources for security guard and field worker wages? I am interested in knowing the origin of your information because it smacks of bias and distortions.
For starters, the median hourly wage for a security guard is $11.57/hr ($24,070/yr). The top 10% tier in the profession earns $20.75/hr ($43,150/yr) or more! {1}
Secondly, you claim farm workers earn more. Wrong!
The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) reports Farmworkers and Laborers (Crop, Nursery and Greenhouse) have extremely low individual earnings. The median hourly wage is $9.00/hour ($18,710/year). Three-fourths earned less than $21,000 annually ($9.91/hour) and only one field worker out of ten earns over $26,000/year (12.52/hour). {2}
Eric, your inference is wrong again when you say, “But big white guys cannot get those jobs because they are not part of the group that gets them.”
I think it is obvious to most people that the bosses you speak of have learned that the big white “guys” do less work during a typical 12 hour day than the little lean tan guys!
Eric, your numbers and your claims appear to be all wrong. The security guard has the potential to earn $20.00/hour and the field hand’s best hope is $12.52. Your claims include figures that appear to be intentionally distorted by someone to create the wrong impression. We can review your false claims again when you reveal your sources.
Until then, Eric, I hope you will be well.
{1} http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes339032.htm
{2} http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes452092.htmThank you, Eric, for providing your data source. It is easy now to see why your claims are so distorted. They are based upon a survey sample of only one person which actually makes the numbers useless.
I appreciate you reply, Eric. Thank you again.I thank you for your advice, Mr. Dierker.
However, if you do not mind, I think I will continue searching for verifiable data and not rely on people who fabricate their own facts as they go along.
I hope you stay well.
I think we're in complete agreement here. Terminology may vary a bit, and small misunderstandings, but we agree once more. Few people have a problem with real refugees (still a refugee even after arriving - they are running from something beyond poverty
) and I'm not one of them. When there are 10 million "asylum seekers" in the country, I might change my mind, but for the nonce refugees, seeking actual asylum, are welcome.
Is that all you have? Never mind the content just stay your course seems to be your mantra. It just demeans you when you make arguments like this.Related Discussions
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