It seems another side effect of the latest sexual harrassment revelations, is that some democratic women, including Senator Gillibrand of NY is having a conscience after 20 years...
Now they are claiming that Bill Clinton should have resigned after the Monica Leuwinski affair came to light...
Just think what might have been?
Al Gore would be president, and probably won re-election in 2000.
Iraq war might have been prevented?
No President Obama, and no Senator Hillary Clinton.
It's a Wonderful Life - all over again...
It is strange how people's ideas change over time...when they have no principles to adhere to.
The real problem here is - they are 20 years late.
Bill Clinton, was protected by these women, and now more popular than ever...
He is rated very high in presidential polls...
How come? He must be the luckiest man alive.
If reports are true, he is continuing his behavior to this day...right under the nose of Hillary. His strongest defender...
Jack, Many Liberals flip flop in the wind. Many are jumping on broad making statements claiming Bill Clinton should have stepped down from his presidency. Some saying that he should have been prosecuted. I guess one could surmise that they have "seen the light, the very error of their ways"... The point is that they now feel free to say. "We made a mistake". "However, we should not repeat that mistake with our newly appointed president... Impeach! " Liberal's have an innate way of making it all OK, just by changing their view.
Just consider how many liberal celebrities were going to leave America if Trump won. Now think how many actually moved? Yeah zero. They changed their view, some stating they wold stay, and follow the resist movement. Some said, "I am needed, so I can't leave".
Mark my word, this new found view of Bill Clinton all leads to President Trump. Very convenient, and very transparent.
Maybe it is a new found view for a few Democrat women; but it is not a new view, except to those of you who insist that lefties & moderates are so much different than you are. There were many people who voted for Bill who were very angry with him and thought Hillary should have divorced him. I was one of them. I just didn't base my vote for her on her decision to stay with him - it was her decision to make, and no one else's. It didn't mean that she wasn't capable of being potus, just because I disagreed with her personal decision.
Bill probably should have resigned since he got caught. I mean, its not like we give a crap about catching any of the other deviants who hold offices across the country. I find it interesting how much easier it is for right-wingers to judge & condemn left-deviants; but consistently defend right-deviants. That alone should tell you a LOT about 'how you think' and WHY you think like that. Where is it coming from? Why are YOUR candidates so innocent?
As I've said, sexual harassment is a huge issue for people in power across the world. Taking the time to debate each person we discover to allegedly be guilty of whatever - keeps us fighting. We could just as well be trying to wash a car with a toothbrush while the race continues on & on without us.
Apparently, not for Hillary. I objected to her on moral grounds. I did not fault her for staying married to Bill. That is between two people and no one else knows what goes on between two people. However, her sin was to go after the women who charged her husband for abuse. She did not defend the women that were victims...and more over hired private detectives to dig up dirt on them and scared them into silence. She is a hypocrite of the worst kind. She had no business being in public office. Her dealing with foreign government and donors to the Clinton foundation is criminal on the level of organized crime. How she got away with all that she does, the private server to avoid FOIA...
For those reasons, I could not vote for her or for Trump this past election cycle.
What is so disheartening is that so many people have supposedly done all this 'in-depth' research to expose Hillary as such an incredibly horrible person beyond every other politician we have EVER had; and yet could have cared LESS about Trump's immoral liasons - and in fact, many of them didn't care enough about whether he had them or not to look. They EXPECTED him to have a long list of atrocities, and it was FINE with them...
For someone who didn't vote for either candidate, you sure do allow yourself to be used by the deep state to contribute to their cause, Jack. More fighting, PLEASE!! LoL!
Just look at the long list of accused harassers...they are overwhelming liberals...
It demostrates loud and clear who the real supporters of women rights are - Conservatives.
It comes down to basic principles. It is against the nature of a conservative to abuse their power and treat women with disrespect. That is how we are raised. It is also who we belief. Our God sees everything even when it is done behind close doors.
Has anyone even NOTICED that the same kind of sexual allegation fanfare has started in UK politics, too?! Allow me to correct you yet again, Jack. In this long list, there is a roughly-equal representation of both Dems & GOP naughtiness ALL throughout our history up to the present day.
List of federal political sex scandals in the United States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_f … ted_States
And just in case you've missed Republican-specific ones:
Republican Sex Scandals https://www.ranker.com/list/republican- … gle.com%2F
And just to make sure that your distorted Christian/Catholic ideals are well-covered... I happen to be from a small town in the midwest where our beloved Catholic priest who had resided over our town for DECADES was revealed to have sexually-abused boys throughout that entire time - including many of the boys in my class and at least one uncle (yeah, I started out Catholic, ha!). So, this subject is near & dear to me. (No, this priest is not on this list cuz he was never reported. It didn't come out until after he died; and then all these guys started talking about it. Neat.):
Database of Publicly Accused Priests in the United States
http://bishop-accountability.org/priest … ame-A.html
List of religious leaders convicted of crimes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r … _of_crimes
List of Christian evangelist scandals
https://letmetellyouthis.wordpress.com/ … -scandals/
Hint on how to fight, Jack: don't EVER defend anyone against sexual allegations unless you KNOW for a FACT that it isn't true. Because beliefs are not facts; and people absolutely everywhere within every type of belief-set ARE CAPABLE of ANYTHING.
I am not defending anyone and as you know, these cases are not easily proved.
I am merely making an observation. The list of recent revelations are over whelming liberal celebrities...
I am not saying all conservatives are innocent. Don't confuse GOP for consefvatives for most are not.
The percentage is what I am commenting on. Unless you disagree. It is not 50/50.
Yes, and you 'overwhelmingly' MUST put a label on which party is being tagged, the most - when the FACT IS that both parties (and all kinds of people across this country and the world) engage in this kind of sexual barbarism EVERY DAMN DAY; and YOU want to make it a national issue that is ALL the fault of 'liberals'!! How the hell do you know if every one who isn't a politician on the current list is a 'liberal man'? Just because they rub shoulders with the famous? Many famous people ALSO voted for Trump.
Liberals this, liberals that... Stop helping the deep state, Jack.
Do you deny that political leaning has consequences? Are all groups equal in your eyes? Why bother discussing issues and policies if nothing matters?
On the contrary, I have been trying to make the connection between real policies and results...
It is the liberal policies of entitlements that allowed the society to degenerate to no judgement for having child out of wedlock, single teenage motherhood, poverty and dependency...
All these are inter related. Whereas an individual accountable for their own choices, is less likely to fall into that trap.
I love that sign , It shows perfectly how much the left aligns itself perfectly with the word hypocrite ! Epiphany , look at your party meltdown happening as we speak . Every single charge you make in the above has been shown from the left.
-A Woman's worth
-War crimes..................unbelievable !
I've told you before that the Dems are not my party; and I posted that image far more to provide contrast against Jack's list of immoral Hillary-horrors. Those are things we actually saw Trump do, they aren't 'fake news' or slanted accusations. The fact that they didn't bother you or those who voted for him speaks volumes about your ideals - and they clash with ours. I feel absolutely no need to apologize for that.
I've also told you this before... Anyone who voted for Trump to bring change or whatever; COULD have searched the land for an appropriate 'oddball' candidate who could have implemented your agendas WITHOUT all the bullying & BS. That is basically what some Dems did with Obama. If you'll remember, he wasn't the 1st choice of most Dems. Maybe you didn't like him; but he didn't bully or provoke massive infighting like Trump has. He was focused on his mission, not constantly & intentionally making sure that everyone he doesn't like, knows it.
How much farther ahead do you think you would be right now if you had done that? I could care less about policies; but don't get mad at me because I refuse to support someone like Trump (and quite frankly, I support him more often than I would like to). Many of us couldn't, wouldn't or didn't - and yet, you WON; and haven't things been nothing but gumdrops & roses, since? LoL!
Jack , You know how Liberals are going to spin this , This issue will come all the way around the complete circle of discussion to a re-treaded Trumpism , Sexual misconduct allegation only applies to conservatives and you should know that by now. . Bill Clinton , THE Kennedy's , Joe Biden or "dirty uncle Joe" as those in the know call him.......................I guarantee you this will become a scream of " ....'.Peach 45 , 'Peach 45 " and all for his "locker room talk".
Did Monica Lewinsky ever say he sexually harassed/assaulted her? I thought it was consensual, in which case I’m not sure why that would warrant a resignation. But if she did say there was harassment/assault involved then certainly that would be the correct response.
It was not that case but many other charges by multiple credible women...
The problem with Monica was she was an intern and the affair happpened in the Oval office.
And it was about obstruction of justice - the charge of impeachment was not about sex.
It was spun as a private sexual matter when the whole Clinton scandal had to so with obstruction and abuse of power and many infractions...
The Senators had to go into a secret room to read all the charges...
How quickly we forget?
What about the other couple of dozen or more Bill Clinton accusers , any defense for them or do you think that they ALSO knew or should have known what was happening and have no case. I would think you as a woman would see the impossibility of legally proving sometimes decades old sexual accusations . Some of them allege actual rape by Bill.
Put aside you adoration of his charisma for a moment.
We don't adore Clinton... But Monica was a big girl who participated in a consentual sexual act with a potus. It happened a few decades ago. Sure, Clinton has other 'rape' allegations against him; but so does Trump and he is the one in office at the moment. Shall we dig up everything we can and get to the bottom dastardly deeds of both these men?
What about every other 'leader' in our country - from businessmen, to Hollywood hounds, to other politicians, to pastors & priests, etc. How much effort should we put toward erradicating our society of male pigs?
These things are just diversions to keep you all fighting - let's tag a Republican, now a Democrat - back and forth. Do you think there would ever be an end?
It really is amazing how much arguing this one issue is creating - when women have been complaining about this crap for decades. Why is it all coming up NOW?
Good job jumping through deep state hoops, peeps. LoL!
Good Point ! You know ; This whole "why now " thing bothers me too. That was one of my first thoughts and as usual I wondered, were women waiting for promised job advancements , personal favors , financial settlements , there are way to many "fine lines " that are seemingly crossed in these decades old charges ?
And I'm Seriously asking you this.
There are an infinite number of ways & reasons these things happen - and YEAH, it isn't always the guy's fault. For instance, there are many people who have been VERY suspicious of Monica Lewinski since she KEPT that dress for 'evidence'. What woman on this planet would DO that if they didn't have some sort of preconceived reason for doing so? Its just another conspiracy theory... someone supposedly wanted to 'set Clinton up' and did a good job on him.
Its just another potential side to the story.
How can we tell who is telling the truth - or what anyone's motive is for doing so? Maybe we should give them all lie-detector tests; but those are not entirely reliable, either.
We women have been dealing with this stuff for decades - and pretty much just have to endure it. Its one of the reasons why these things often don't get reported; because it just goes around & around between he-said, she-said.
Its stupid that this is the big national topic, right now.
Quite the leap you just took there. The original post stated that the senator said he should have resigned specifically because of the Lewinsky affair, all I said was that I didn’t see the issue with a consensual affair (at least in terms of him being able to do his job).
I can completely understand someone saying they think he should have resigned amidst sexual assault accusations or even his impeachment, though as jacklee said, that wasn’t because he had sex with anyone.
So I still don’t think the actual issue that was originally brought up (consensual sex with Lewinsky) warrants a resignation.
I believe Monica tweeted #Metoo. Concerning that incident. I thought it was funny, considering her behavior during that time, but she did make the statement. So, yes. She did claim harassment.
Even is she didn't make the claim at the time considering his position of authority over her it constituted sexual harassment.
"Even if she didn't make the claim at the time considering his position of authority over her it constituted sexual harassment." What a ridiculous statement, especially by a woman. Women are perfectly capable of resisting men in power if they want to; and we do it all the time. Bill being potus had absolutely nothing to do with Monica being sexually harassed. She seemed like a pretty willing participant from the beginning (and who knows what would have happened with that situation had it not been caught so early). She wasn't a 'victim', anymore than he was.
Oh yeah, women are perfectly capable of willingly participating in sexually-deviant behavior for any number of reasons - sometimes for the flimsiest ones, such as simply being overly-attracted to men in power. Monica could have ended up being Bill Clinton's 'Marla Maples' - trying to seduce him away from his wife who was older and not quite as pretty or desired, anymore.
Just because a man holds a position of authority doesn't mean that women suddenly lose their personal power. These types of sexual wrongdoings happen for one of two reasons: women are forced and/or manipulated (the guys who do things like 'make women watch them masturbate' or worse); OR the deviant couple are consentually participating in it - even if one or the other of them has an alterior motive that the other doesn't know about. Its still consentual.
Today , I believe , Any man or woman working ,almost without exception , has had anti-sexual harassment on the job training , mine started in the construction trades ,in general employment and in managing well over twenty years ago . Bottom line . One who abuses that power while co-working , managing , employing and / or in business ownership is wholeheartedly doing so WITH full knowledge of the law. Any woman , who engages her female influences for gainful employment , promotion , position or general advancement , is also doing so with full knowledge . AND here's the thing ; There is an incredible amount of two-party phsyco-sexual [if that's the right term ]play on the job everywhere .
Given the obvious education of both sexes ; So What IS with these delayed allegations coming from everywhere ?
Politically motivated - me thinks .
Definitely politically motivated - tit for tat. Let's talk about every piddly little thing we can dig up to argue about; and then we don't have to try and get along or work out our differences. Its nothing but a diversion.
By the way, it isn't just men & women in power who do stuff like this. It STARTS in grade school, slips into male 'locker room mentality' and continues ALL throughout our lives. If this image doesn't explain just about everything about this subject, I don't know what else would:
This crap is RAMPANT across our society - not just Hollywood & politics. And, it isn't going to diminish until our entire society starts to rethink what we are teaching our children from the day they are born.
Allow me to elaborate, because I don't think some of you quite understand how our families & society affect the way we learn as children and behave as adults...
A mom and/or parents 'dream' about their daughter finding a good husband to create a nice life with and have beautiful children with. She is OFTEN taught from day one that she IS pretty; and that she needs to continue to develop her 'beautifulness' so that she will be desireable enough to attract a good husband when she reaches adulthood.
And THEN, (whether she has plans for a career and goes to college, nor not) she is thrust into the world with her biggest objective, which is to find a good husband. This is why so many young girls end up pregnant... They are desperate & deluded into thinking that their entire worth in life hangs on whether or not they can accomplish their main goal of finding a good husband as FAST as possible to 'complete themselves'.
Since You Asked, Roy Moore, Here Is Why Victims Of Sexual Violence Wait Decades To Come Forward https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/si … 46c52e6ae6
A boy, on the other hand... is pretty much taught to RESIST the charms of women, EXCEPT to engage in the occassional sexual trist; because that is part of 'being a man'. And the more notches you have on your belt, the better. Like this as*hole has demonstrated: Ohio Supreme Court Justice Bill O'Neill Brags About Sexual History With 50 'Very Attractive Females' http://time.com/5030487/ohio-supreme-co … -sex-brag/
IMAGINE if a woman in power were to make this claim!! She would be ostricized in our society; and certainly NOT be in a position of power.
The really sad thing about all this is NOT just about 'the girls'... It is also about the incredible amounts of PRESSURE that we put on our young boys. So many of them fall into a 'desperate' place in life where they are not quite successful as society (or their parents) think they shoud be; and FAR TOO MANY of them end up giving up and committing suicide. I'm sure this also has a LOT to do with why so many of our soldiers come home and eventually make that decision.
U.S. military suicides remain high for 7th year https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat … /82518278/
What is there for them in our society, if they don't happen to 'make it' by the time they are supposed to?
I was reading an article a woman wrote about her college age son's suicide... She said she wished she had told him that he could 'start over' in life. He was young enough to do that - had gotten kicked out of college; and was having a hard time finding a job that he liked and/or was able to support him, afterwards. Instead of being labelled a 'loser' for the rest of his life - he basically just checked out.
It happens far too often. Why do more men commit suicide than women? https://blog.frontiersin.org/2016/09/26 … han-women/
I don't recall making a statement that women lose the ability to be responsible for their actions. However, considering her age at the time and Clinton's position of power and age at the time I don't think it is unreasonable to believe she was taken advantage of. Whether she considered herself to be a willing participant, or not.
But, taking into account that she told her mom and the advice from her parental unit was to 'save the dress' I think we can chalk part of Monica's lack of judgement up to poor parenting.
No, you didn't make that statement, you just insinuated it. Making the excuse you just did for Monica only infantilizes her - which is yet another neat little thing we do to women. They are either naive, desperate or forced to have sex - unless they are married or 'loose', LoL!
It is another aspect that needs to be put into balance. When young girls start growing up with bountifuls of self-confidence, society won't be in as much doubt (or worried) about them like that.
Either way, I don't find it at all impossible for Monica to have initiated things... I'm not saying Bill didn't, just that either way is completely believable; and its just another he said/she said situation that we will never really know the truth about.
I stated (somewhere in this thread,or one of the endless threads we have cropping up on this topic) that this is not a short term fix. It will take generations to retrain the way society thinks. This is primarily because it will take raising young women with the right attitude and raising young men with the same. I agree that young girls need to be brought up with self confidence. But, they also need that self confidence channeled correctly. Young women are taught , from a very tender age, that their looks matter. They are programmed to see that sex sells. That popularity is determined by anything from breast size to hair and make up.
We give mixed signals to our young women and our young men. And we are seeing the consequences of it right now. 'Use your assets' juxtaposed with 'men shouldn't objectify women'. So when a young girl is raised to believe that looks matter most, we have a trillion dollar industry which helps women objectify themselves and a growing outrage that men appreciate the effort and react to it.
But, back to Monica. Yes, at 21 she was of the age of consent. But, this is not similar to the Harvey Weinstein story or even Al Franken. She was a White House intern. Politics is not an industry where women can reasonably assume if they want to rise within the political arena that sex appeal and giving it up is going to bolster their careers. Now, we can do as you are and not put things into balance. Hold her completely responsible for her part in the endeavor but I don't believe that is a fair assessment. I don't see her as blameless, either. But, I think anyone who has followed Monica Lewinski's life from that moment forward realizes that this bizarre and demeaning chapter is not a testament to who she is as a person as much as it is indicative of a young woman mesmerized by being that close to power.
Only a fool would think that Bill Clinton, the man, would have been able to be in the same position as Bill Clinton, the president, was. He took advantage of his power. He garnered benefits which were directly related to his position, not his prowess. It is quite reasonable to assume that had he been a truck driver in the same situation it would not have been as damning. But, he wasn't. He was the President of the United States.
Had she been a decade older her percentage of culpability might be higher. Were this three generations hence, where kids were raised with the values I think we agree on, her age would be less important.
Bill Clinton biggest contribution to the coarsening of our society is the Monica. It made this sex act main stream with teenagers. It gave them the excuse, the President did it and it is not "sex"...
By allowing Clinton to stay in power, because he was good for the economy... we have sold out. It makes all these present day scandals possible because, the underlying message is it is OK as long as he is one of us... mentality. I remember distinctly one celebrity at the time said she would get on her knee for Bill because he supported the right to choose abortion...
The genie is out of the bottle and it can't be put back.
I don't blame Bill Clinton for where we are. As far as this particular conversation goes, he is just another guy who believed what was between his legs was of more importance than what was between Monica's ears. Our reaction, as a society, was indicative of our problems.
We can't change hormones. And, honestly, to change this mentality women have toward themselves (which contributes greatly to the problem we are experiencing) will require some fundamental changes. Changes I don't think you, as an evangelical, may support.
Perhaps true "Woman's Lib " hasn't evolved enough yet to allow them the strengths to truthfully admit more than a passive aggressive path to power. Let's face it , sexual power and it's manifestation lies fuming to one degree or another in every encounter between men and a women . Monica at what ? 19 certainly naively felt and knew it , Bill Clinton stumbled over it constantly all through his career , Spend an hour in a bar at happy hour and observe all of the action , male or female and learn .
Both parties GENERALLY are as guilty of "using what they got " in any politically, financially , sexually motivated situation , The moment that it becomes violent , power , job , or legal age related it get's sticky . It's pretty simple , Rape is illegal but sex with consent is just that , no matter how it's manipulated in the end .
Remember that old saying , "God knows no fury like a woman scorned " ? There's a lot of that going on here too.
I will agree in that I think women oftentimes want to have their cake and eat it too. I've worked with women who use their sexuality for some type of advancement and then complain that they are being sexually harassed.
And, you are right. Interactions between men and women cannot escape either party noticing the differences in sex and responding to the other differently, because of it.
But, our society has tentatively agreed on some things, by its laws and its common practices. Not holding a young girl responsible for her part in a relationship with a young man. Claiming they are victims. Not holding young girls responsible for decisions made for their own bodies, but holding the young men responsible. Not giving women control of their own bodies without accompanying it with emotional bullying. Body shaming women when they don't meet some media industry standard. Celebrating a man's sexual prowess while concurrently demeaning women for similar behavior.
All of these and much more have led us to where we are today. We need fundamental changes in the way our society looks at sex and its consequences. That is the first step in turning this around. As long as we not only allow women to play the victim but to profit from it; this will not change. As long as they can profit from it some will do it; to the detriment of every woman who finds it offensive.
#Metoo was a ridiculous idea. If I were sexually harassed I would not consider it to be in the same category as a woman who attempted to use her looks for advancement. I would be insulted by anyone who attempted to make it so.
Here is list...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cl … llegations
You are really on an "I hate Democrats" roll, Jack - LoL! Yes, its very interesting that Trump had something to say about Al Franken right away; but hasn't mentioned Moore - who is accused of much worse sexual crimes against girls.
And let's not forget about Trump's own long list of accusations throughout the decades:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Tr … llegations
https://www.advocate.com/politics/2017/ … ulted-them
I don't hate anyone. I am a Christian. I am just pointing out the hypocrisy of some of these people. She is my Senator here in NY. The Clintons live in the next town in Chappaqua NY. NY is overwhelming dominated by Democratic politicians. Hillary was a NY Senator before running for President.
I only wish all these politicians would use their good judgement and the oath to uphold the Constitution when they write laws and when they govern...
I am always disappointed when they let politics rule the day. By all account, Bill Clinton should have been impeached and convicted and remove from office in disgrace. Instead, due to politics, he was protected and in fact glorified by the DNC and created this mess we are living through now.
The same can be said about our growing deficits and debt...our bloated taxes...
In NY, we have the highest property taxes and yet we have losy roads and poor services...
Our local government is run by democrats and it is full of corruption and abuse.
That is why I am so negative on politicians in general and democratic politicians in particular.
Blah, blah, blah... you're hung up on all the things the deep state wants you to be hung up on, Jack. I've told you that, before. I forgot that you are a Christian (kind of an easy mistake to make with you), so that is supposed to naturally mean that you don't hate anyone. But condoning dissention & perpetuating it doesn't seem to phase you - as it doesn't many Christian/Conservatives like you.
What a conundrum you're all in.
Wow, some Republican men are admitting Roy Moore is not fit to be a senator and Trump is not fit to be president. Wow.
Seriously, the Clintons are not holding public office so this weird fixation you and others have is nothing but yelling "Squirrel!" any time your partisan brain is required to consider the creepy scum who wear an (R) beside their name.
Could of, would of, should of ... Clinton is history. You might as well discuss Millard Fillmore. Trumpery has no ethics, no morals, no political experience and only cares about millionaires and billionaires. He should be impeached ... or, better yet, indicted on his collusion with Russia.
Coulda woulda shoulda ? Ask a woman who was raped if it's all "just history ", when you do I want to be there please .THERE lies the hypocrisy of this entire issue , OF COURSE we all know there is a difference between an alleged crime committed by a conservative and an actual one by a democrat ..........
You attempt to politicize simply for reasons of obstruction .......and obviously have no political memory ?
I don't know, this person sounds like a troll who is well-versed in lefty talking points - kind of like Jack is for 'right' talking points, LoL!
I just came across this, and most of it sounds pretty spot-on: Rev. Dr. William Barber: The unbearable hypocrisy of Roy Moore's Christian rhetoric http://www.collective-evolution.com/201 … is-energy/
Here's a few splashes:
"This is not Christianity. Rather, it is an extreme Republican religionism that stands by party and regressive policy no matter what. It's not the gospel of Christ, but a gospel of greed. It is the religion of racism and lies, not the religion of redemption and love."
"As well as he knows his Bible, Roy Moore never quotes from the more than 2,000 verses that exhort us to care for the poor, the sick, and the stranger in our midst. He has apparently overlooked the prophet Isaiah, who said to men like Moore in his own day: “Doom to you who legislate evil, who make laws that make victims — laws that make misery for the poor, that rob the destitute of their dignity, exploiting defenseless widows, taking advantage of homeless children” (Is.10:1-4)."
"National Republican leaders who claim the moral high ground while renouncing Moore now are like the Republicans who spoke out against white supremacy after Charlottesville, condemning the “hate” but never repenting of white nationalist policy. Their moral outrage rings hollow because it renounces Moore based on his personal patterns but says nothing about the disturbing pattern of his policy agenda." (Dang, if that statement isn't spot-on, huh?)
"This is no time to retreat or remain idle. We must stand up for truth in the public square and reclaim our political and faith traditions which have been hijacked."
The very last sentence is what concerns me the most, and has since Trump was elected. The GOP use their religion in the same way Islamic militants use Muslim: twisting & twirling Christian beliefs to suit whatever agenda they are trying to accomplish or escape from.
People should be caring about that; but we're all arguing over stupid things like all these sexual allegations - instead of actually taking steps to improve our country or our world in any kind of productive way.
That's absurd. Clinton is not president. He is not even in the government. Why would you bring up politics? Trumpery is a pervert. Period. He is not the qualified for the job of president of the USA.
We also forget the Senate exonerated Clinton. Impeachment is just being charged - not convicted.
The Clintons are not in office.l Trumpery is president (He's the one who admit his guilt and resign from office. If you can endorse this pervert as president you shouldn't be looking for scapegoats.
There must be some reason that you refuse to talk about the incumbent pervert.
William F. Torpey, " He should be impeached ... or, better yet, indicted on his collusion with Russia." There is zero proof of any collusion? At least not of yet. Would it not be wiser to wait until the three investigations are complete? It seems very bias to be so critical of the president due to media hype. Why not wait to come down on the president until there comes to be evidence of a crime?
Let's see. Proof. Russia gave Hillary e-mails to Wikileaks. Fact. Wikileaks was in contact with Donald Trump, Jr. Fact. Trump campaign made announcements prior to Wikileaks releasing various information. Fact. That is a clear case of collusion. This is even ignoring all the contacts between other campaign staff and actual members of the Russian government and the countless times that those campaign aides lied about said contacts.
Valeant - The founder of Wikileaks denies he obtained the DNC emails from Russia... Fact. They actually did not post any of Hillary's emails? The emails were from the DNC? It does appear Donald Jr. did have a back and forth with Wikileaks, he posted them last week in there entirety online. I read each and every one, no and I am sure so did Mullier. there was nothing of any consequence in them. Fact. In regards to Manaford and Popadoppolous they certainly have had contacts with Russians, although neither lead back to the Trump campaign collusion. If any collusion did occur the perpetrate would certainly be brought up on charges. Just l contact with a Russian does not prove collusion? a crime would have had to have occurred. Please visit Donald Jr, twitter page to read emails... I think yo will see there was nothing to indicate a crime was committed.
The founder of Wiki denies it, yet all the US intelligence services confirm it. Let's see, who to believe. Our NSA, CIA, FBI or Assange. Tough call there. We all know who Trump supporters tend to believe, foreigners like Assange and Putin because Trump says to.
Nothing of consequence? The release of damaging information that was hacked from the DNC by Russians (fact) and then given to Wikileaks, and then coordinated with the Trump campaign. That is literally the definition of colluding.
Honestly, there is no reason to believe any of the parties involved. Since our government has proven, time and again, that it will make false statements in order to garner political gain for the party in power.
But you ignore the " Dossier ", the DNC collusion ,The Obama conspiracy against Trump , the Clinton collusion ,the perpetual Russian campaign of propaganda against the west ,......................Oh that's right , it's all Trumps fault ?
I forgot !
None of the things you just listed disproves anything I said in terms of proof of Trump Campaign collusion. None. They are just distracting conspiracy theories.
There is no collusion between Trump and Russia. Muller investigation have turned up nothing. The idea a successful businessman and a TV star after 40 years in business, can and have access to the Kremlin is preposterous. This whole affair was manufactured by the DNC, bought and pay for, and Comey and Mueller are just pawns. This whole independent council is a joke and we have learned nothing from history. When you give unlimited power to a small group of partisan lawyers, you will get whatever you want out of it.
Use your brain for a change and don't let the media and the political machine drive you over board. Where is your common sense?
And what is your real "proof " of Trump collusion that no one else seems to be ready to acknowledge , the FBI , Mueller , the NSA , CIA , ............... ? There are a lot of theorist's drawing lines of major hope in the media leaks , inventions , fantasies and dreams of all the obstructionist .
Is THAT all you have........ too.?
And yet , those same obstructionist's ignore that there are impending investigations and possible charges of the other half of these investigations ,the Clinton's? And to say nothing about the admitted Obama/ Clinton /DNC actual fishing conspiracies against Trumps campaign ?
Anything there ?
Well, let's look at your "proof" of collusion.
"Russia gave Hillary e-mails to Wikileaks." Stipulated true, but has nothing to do with Trump
"Wikileaks was in contact with Donald Trump, Jr." Even if stipulated as true, there is nothing here that says there was collusion over the election. Unless you have emails from Wikileaks to Trump. Jr, showing what information was exchanged?
"Trump campaign made announcements prior to Wikileaks releasing various information." If stipulated, does not mean wikileaks gave them information prior to releasing it elsewhere. And certainly does not indicate collusion with Russia; there are alternate sources, you know.
"...and then coordinated with the Trump campaign. " Most certainly NOT stipulated...unless you have proof of this "coordination" (whatever you mean by that)?
The bottom line, then, is that you are taking a set of (possibly unrelated) events, claiming they are related and all about the same thing (without proving it so) and turning it into collusion. This is called "circumstantial evidence" and it's going to take a lot more than what little you've provided to make a case. Keep digging!
The facts are, that there WAS Russian manipulation via 'fake news' propaganda that was directed at certain suseptible populations within our country (that started LONG BEFORE we decided who the two final 'main' potus candidates were going to be) - specifically in order to cause dissention, confusion and chaos among us. However, absolutely NO 'collusion' was necessary by the Trump Campaign to implement that strategy.
PLUS, this Russian strategy wasn't necessarily originally-aimed at getting Trump elected. It is far more likely that they were aiming for anyone but Hillary. I'm sure they would have been as happy with Bernie or any one of the candidates from any other party - EVEN IF there was communication between Trump's people and the Russians. (Bernie narrowly lost to Hillary. IMAGINE if Bernie had won. Our country would be almost in as much turmoil because of how OFFENSIVE his '100% free' policies ARE to 'the right'.)
If Russia reached out to Trump's people (or was 'infiltrated' by them, somehow) - that only proves that Russia is/was aware that they would be unusually-interested (beyond other candidate's campaigns) in helping to 'expose' Hillary (or whatever), further.
If you are an adversarial country; and your goal is to instigate chaos & confusion among your enemies - our COURSE you have made it your business to be MORE aware of what is going on in that country [than people who actually live here, are] - and how to manipulate them.
Trump may not remotely be a unifying force among us; but maybe that isn't the job of a potus. Most of us already have mommy's & daddy's who have taught us how to behave; and those of us who vote are grownups who are supposed to be capable of making intelligent decisions.
This administration isn't about unity or taking the high-moral road - its about upending hard, sunburmed ground so we can eventually till it and make something good grow, again. Not 'through' Trump, but because of him.
Lemonade. Stop trying to impeach him; and watch what everyone else from BOTH parties around him are doing, and why. We can see all kinds of room for improvement that we never saw before - and we can eventually do something about it. And if nothing else, MOST (if not all) of us are a LOT smarter when it comes to reading manipulative and/or bogus BS.
Let people learn. We have time. Trump isn't going to bring the end of the world to us. He is providing a way for us to really see how it can be improved upon, if we will only realize and take advantage of it during upcoming elections and future policy creation.
This topic has drifted far away from Clinton. Yes, I agree with your assessment. Trump was not the "end of the world" scenario painted by some on the left. Perhap, there is an opportunity here for real change, not by the same old politicians, but from an outsider...
Trump isn't going to be bringing the changes you want - only temporarily, if he does. (Maybe you'll get the wall; and that would be hard to 'undo'.) Trump's job seems to be bringing 'the majority' of us who oppose the extreme aspects of his policies together - so we can realize our 'wrongs' and fix them, instead of remaining in our centuries-old, manipulative haze.
I know you believe that Trump is in there because 'the majority' of the people who voted for him actually wanted Conservative policies to be at the center of our government. But, change was his purpose - not Conservative ideals, Jack. While he may talk in a way you value, and even supports SOME Conservative agendas... He still sides with compromising, bipartisan policies, much of the time. (Such as not wanting to 'totally' do away with every aspect of Obamacare - although renaming it (of course, ha!); and changing it for improvements, sounds good to him - as it does to most of us.)
He's a middle-of-the-road guy who has allowed himself to become mesmerized by some current - and seriously distorted - narratives in our country, as so many are. But, this country was founded on a major Revolution; and we have/are surviving such radically-immoral and harsh things like slavery, racism, bigotry, misogyny, crime waves, wars and natural disasters, etc. We're not new, anymore.
No president has ever been able to work themselves in as King of our country - no matter how hard they may have tried. NONE of them do this job alone - whether they are responsible for final decisions, or not. Trump isn't the end; but neither is he the savior that you're sure he is, Jack. He's just another potus who isn't nearly as capable of permanently-changing things in the extreme way (or as much) as you want them to change - as you thought.
- despite how good he is at talking like it, LoL!
We the People WILL eventually & actually RULE this country... Because we can now see HOW we have been manipulated, for ages; AND we are much more aware of how it looks when governments (including our own) & political parties manipulate us. We'll have full control of the reigns, eventually. Patience.
If all that you claim is true, then the majority of the people in the middle should be jumping for joy...
He was not the disaster, the left claim. He was not the conservative, we on the right wanted...
So he is just right...
Why the media and some on the left are going beserk?
This election was not about the left vs the right.
It was about the outsiders getting fed up with the insiders of DC, both parties.
The fact that these people still don't get it, amazes me.
I am refering to the GOP leadership and the Democrats...
Their days are numbered.
Come next election, most of them will be out, either by choice or force out.
by Susie Lehto 21 months ago
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by Susie Lehto 22 months ago
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