Can corporate greed be coralled to allow free enterprise?

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rhamsonposted 15 years ago
With the recent collapse of the insurance companies sub prime rates and government bail outs, can our capitalist based market system be trusted to right itself?
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  Neil Sperlingposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If Government was "only" involved in governing there may be hope. But government is TOO involved in politics to get anything right.
  .
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  C.J. Wrightposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Trick question. Capitalism and Government Bail Outs dont go togeather. Under the current circumstances, the answer to the loaded question is NO. Government needs to get out of the way. The media needs to get off the H1N1 crazy train and start exposing these "Greedy Corporate" organizations. Once big business has a PR nightmare on their hands, they will change course. Whats happening currently is the government try's to discipline them via taxes. Big business in turn reduces cost...JOBS. Its the basic tit for tat game theory that has now reached a death spiral....
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Cagsilposted 15 years ago
Not at all.
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sneakorocksolidposted 15 years ago
I hope so, but I doubt it.
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
Considering the most of the greed in USA exists outside corporate management, it won't help you even if you manage to remove it from corporations.

When you learn to live a lifestyle you can afford, things will get better.
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Cagsilposted 15 years ago
My personal experience leads me to believe that it has to do with corporate figures also.

It isn't just the people outside corporate management. It would be ridiculous to think that it's solely the irresponsibility of those outside the corporate structure.
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
It is both. And putting all the blame on corporations is not going to fix it.
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Cagsilposted 15 years ago
true enough, but applying pressure on them to become more responsible for those under their command...should be helpful somewhat.

How ever, stricter enforcement on those who do act irresponsible would be also helpful.
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
I don't buy into more regulations and enforcement philosophy. I had too much of it during my not-so-short life, and plenty of chances to see that it does not work as expected.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's because those who are acting foolish are not actually be severely punished for their actions.
  
  Prime example: the financial disaster(collapse).
  
  How many people were actually held accountable?
  
  Virtually, none.
  
  So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why did the government try to socially engineer the banks into making loans they knew couldn't be paid back? That's the real question.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The sub-prime mortgage market had nothing to do with government.
  
  It had to do with products(illconceived) marketed by banking.
  
  That which blew up in their faces.
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  Madame Xposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not exactly -
  
  "In reality, regulatory policy has worked in the opposite direction. The government wanted more risky loans made, not fewer. For example, the Community Reinvestment Act pressured banks to make loans in poor neighborhoods. Banks (and I was a banker under the CRA) figured that making some bad loans was just another tax, a cost of doing business as a regulated company. In 1995, the Clinton administration revised the CRA to increase pressure on banks to make more loans to risky borrowers." - quoted by the author
  
  http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5316
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I was only citing one instance.
  
  There are LOTS of reason for the most recent events that happened.
  
  No one and nothing can pin-point a specific reason for it happening. Regardless of where you look.
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  Manly Manposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The linked article focused on one of the causes that contributed to the financial meltdown. There were a number of causes, and plenty of blame to go around--mortgage companies like Countrywide who submited false data supporting mortgages, appraisers who signed false appraisals, individuals who signed up for mortgages which they knew or should have known they weren't able to pay, Wall Street Banksters who created pools of sub= mortgages and sold them to investors around the world, rating services like Moody's who gave the pools of mortgages triple A ratings, banks who made big bets with borrowed money, Alan Greenspan who fed the bubble too long with low interest rates. Despite what the conservatives say, Barney Frank didn't singlehandedly cause the mortgage boom and bust.
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  Manly Manposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The linked article focused on one of the causes that contributed to the financial meltdown. There were a number of causes, and plenty of blame to go around--mortgage companies like Countrywide who submited false data supporting mortgages, appraisers who signed false appraisals, individuals who signed up for mortgages which they knew or should have known they weren't able to pay, Wall Street Banksters who created pools of sub-prime mortgages and sold them to investors around the world, rating services like Moody's and Standard and Poors who gave the pools of mortgages triple A ratings, banks who made big bets with borrowed money, Alan Greenspan who fed the bubble too long with low interest rates. Despite what the conservatives say, Barney Frank didn't singlehandedly cause the mortgage boom and bust.
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Come on, Misha, you know from experience that regulation only leads to corruption by the very industries the regulators are supposed to oversee. What I've read about in history books, you've lived through.
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Madame Xposted 15 years ago
I was responding specifically to your statement that

"The sub-prime mortgage market had nothing to do with government."

I would say the govt had everything to do with it - and that it was specifically engineered to cause the horrible mess we're in right now. Why? To disenfranchise America. Communism is so much easier to slide in if citizens have no money and have no choice but to rely on the govt. It's a self- propelled cycle. Once you have one you have the other, and so on.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And, I was talking about the CDO products from the banks which were illconceived.
  
  But, thanks for your input.
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Madame Xposted 15 years ago
Take a look at the link I posted. It's somewhat revealing
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Star Witnessposted 15 years ago
Umm, how can anyone take your words seriously with that display of behind?

lol
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  Madame Xposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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bgpappaposted 15 years ago
Agree with Misha, Corporations, Individuals and Government all deserve some blame for the financial crash.

Corporations for greed

Individuals for living outside their means.

Government for non regulation

Corporations should be able to control their own destiny subject to some governmental controls.

There is always a tug or way or another but when all three lose control, these meltdowns happen.

Then government steps in, things get better, then there is a fight for the government to retract, the etc. ect.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Then you disagree with me
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Madame Xposted 15 years ago
The linked article was mainly about how the govt was mostly responsible with their meddling in the Community Reinvestment Act and their ridiculous assumption that Wall Street bankers "should know better" - a dubious claim at best, if not an outright lie.

So no, it doesn't focus on 'one' reason for the mess, but the core reason and a host of subsequent reasons.
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Cagsilposted 15 years ago
You know, this conversation seems to be on the focus of the Government and it's so-called "Regulations?". This seems to be missing the point of the problem.

Yes, there are many people responsible for the mess. We know this. So, that begs to question how did it become a mess?

This leaves you with only 3 choices and all 3 choices are to blame. It is ironic that it boils down to this-

(1) Irresponsibility of Business, and
(2) Irresponsibility of Citizens, and
(3) Irresponsibility of Goverment.

How ever, there is a problem which no one seems to be talking about?

The problem isn't enough regulation or too much regulation.

The problem that exists is within the workers who are suppose to regulate business. These people cannot seem to do their jobs properly. They have the necessary information and if they don't then they go get it.

These morons who regulate business don't seem to want to regulate business. Are all regulator corrupt?

Hmm....

A prime example: The federal regulation for those businesses who are non-profit and/or charitable organization are suppose to spend a minimum 5% of total revenue, for what they claim?

This is not being regulated properly, because of a study done in 2000 when an independant agency decided to measure the top 200 U.S. companies that are followed by federal regulators.

NONE of these companies fell within the parameters of federal regulation. It is interesting how we place blame on specific areas, but not pay attention to other areas.

So, what's the answer?

Federal regulator need to do a better job. This is killing society. Those who so-called 'businesses' are not spending enough money on the things that they claim to? No one has been fined or prosecuted for this offense against American citizens.

Why? Because business has a strangle-hold on Congress. The same thing I've been saying for the last 3 weeks of being a Hubber.

I don't like to fight about politics, but if you're going to place blame, please be sure that YOU accept some of that blame.

Why? Because, you voted the politicians into office and you KNEW that Business has been in deep with Congress for over 20+ years now.

Where is YOUR responsibility as a citizen to say NO MORE!

When does this FALL on to the citizens?

Where does the line in the sand get crossed?

STOP talking politics and talk civilized.

This is literally ridiculous watching the bicker and bantering going back and forth.
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rhamsonposted 15 years ago
With the breakup by government of the large monopolies that existed and drove away competition, the practice is becoming more familiar. Is it that this is a cycle or that government is turning a blind eye while collecting the easy tax money rather than watch dogging it?
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Poppa Bluesposted 15 years ago
Oh yes! The EVIL GREEDY corporations that want to suck the life out of us just enough for us to keep feeding them our money but not enough to kill us!!

Yes those greedy corporations, the one's that provide us with paychecks and devices and services that make our lives better. The ones that subsidize our health care and allow us to save for retirement! Bad, Bad corporations!!! You're soooo greedy!
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  rhamsonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Which ones are you talking about? The ones that pay no corporate taxes or the ones that suck up the sudsidies to do less? Oh that's okay because I get my health care paid by them and they don't terminate anyone before they can get to their retirement. Ever hear of these scenarios?
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  Poppa Bluesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  First of all. corporations don't pay taxes, the consumers of their products do! The subsidies are granted by government usually at the behest of corporate lobbyists often in exchange for campaign contribution or to keep from moving out of one's district etc... Once again, government is the cancer, not the answer!
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  rhamsonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Precisely! They don't pay taxes. Is that because they are so philanthropic with their profits that they don't need to pay them? Oh and I guess the government pays the coporations to hire lobbyists to help them take advantage of the system. These corporations are sounding like real princes.
  
  I can't believe you took this tact. It's undefensible.
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  Poppa Bluesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Corporations have a RESPONSIBILITY to their share holders to make a profit. That means they must pass on as much of their costs as the market will bear.
  By the way corporations also contribute large sums to charities.
  The problem is government wants to create the illusion that they are looking out for the interests of the public by taxing corporations when they know full well it is the public that will be paying those taxes!
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  rhamsonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with the first part but the some of the tactics employed to create that profit are less than moral or just. As far as the contributions, they don't come out of the goodness or their heart as you would have us believe. They are almost always a write off. The last part is an opinion of the wink wink kind that wreaks of a conspiracy theory rather than any proven knowledge.
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  Poppa Bluesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes well who controls the tax code that allows those corporations to take that deduction? Oh and there are quite a few corporations that are indeed socially responsible. There are whole stock funds of them!
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  rhamsonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The ones who bought it, the corporations. Quite a few is not a number, three would fill that argument.
  
  You need to understand the difference between government and corrupt government. You seem to lump it under one heading. Just as there are good corporations there are bad ones too. The same goes with good acting government agencies and bad ones. You seem to not be able to make that distinction.
  
  As far as the bad acting government agencies we need to root them out and prosecute them. That is our fault and not the governments. The same goes for corporations who have taken advantage of the laws through loop holes and influence mongering.
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  Poppa Bluesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh so the corporations bought their deductions in the tax code? LOL! Okay that may be so, but who structured the tax code? Who invented the tax code? Did you know the 16th amendment of the constitution was written to insure the federal government had the power to tax income?
  The congress controls the tax code. They are the ones that use it as a source of power to get what they want! And yes ALL government is corrupt! Anytime someone has power over others the allure of corruption is irresistible!
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  rhamsonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your paranoia is so complete when you go on like this. My dear man the influence is what is for sale. Corporate America understood that years ago. They just pay both parties to do their bidding.
  
  You still propose that the government is against us. The government doesn't care which way it goes as long as they are paid. We still have the power of the vote to change anything we want even in the constitution, we just choose to let someone else run it. The problem is not with the government but it is with us. We own it and we play into these little polarized wars the politicians set up.
  
  <snipped - no personal attacks in the Forums>
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  Poppa Bluesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah sure. We own it. Our little vote controls what happens that must be why incumbents keep getting elected over and over even though congress has some of the lowest approval ratings in history. Yup, it's "the people", right, and I'm the tool.
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  rhamsonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I guess your pessimism is what really sets up your distorted view of how to effect change. I wonder if you do vote with that attitude. You are a tool if you don't participate and vote the corruption out. With your intelligence you should be able to look beyond the partisan politics and vote for policy and not party. The apothetic attitude will only fester and make you angry. A dangerous place to be my friend. You will effect no worthwhile change through scare and doomsday tactics because it has little credibility. You fall into their (the politicians) clutches by labeling things and polarizing arguments with distortion and inuendo. I know you are better than that.
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  Poppa Bluesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well I am involved my friend. And I'm sorry you see my view as distorted, but my view has never been clearer or more simple. Individual freedom comes first and our government exists ONLY to insure that individual freedom is preserved. It's constitutional purpose is to encourage prosperity, not confiscate it. When maximum individual freedom is achieved the collective good will be served best and that, my friend, is what you and your socialist crowd fail to realize, fail to see.
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  livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Did you support Bush's war against Iraq?
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  Poppa Bluesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No I was very much against the war in Iraq. I could see Bush was hell bent on going in there and I thought it was the wrong thing to do.
  
  I found out later Hussein resisted IAEA inspections because they would have revealed to Iran he didn't have WMDs which would have left him vulnerable to attack. Saddam was caught between a rock and a hard place, and Bush's rhetoric left him no wriggle room.
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  livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OK. Thank you for the explanation. I agree.
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  Poppa Bluesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Contrary to what you and others migh believe I am NOT a right wing extremeist. However, there can be NO COMPROMISE when it comes to individual liberty! I can not nor will not support a health care plan that mandates a purchase of any kind! That's simply un-American!
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  livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, there's where we disagree but at least you're consistent. (I would add, though, that we collectively pay for a lot of things for the common good, including the military, police force, education, etc.)
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  Poppa Bluesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah...education... and how's that working out for us?
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  livelongerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not terrible but could be better. How's the military, police, fire department working out for us?
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  ledefensetechposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh I don't know, many of them seem to be going broke. They're certainly not hiring, well the military is. As long as Washington can keep printing money, ripping off the future to pay for the present, that will be true. What do you think the effects of stagnant or smaller budgets for law enforcement and fire protection are going to be?
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  Ralph Deedsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, when you reach age 65, I assume you'll decline Medicare coverage and pay your own medical bills!
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Come on Ralph, your kids are capable of paying your bills, you don't have to force the whole country to take part in this family thing.
  
  And I am pretty much sure by the time I reach 65 (if I live that long) there will be no Medicare, they are likely to default long before that. Prolly this applies to Poppa, too
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Come on, Misha. That's so typical of what someone from a traditional country of the former USSR would say. Our culture is different, ie.
  
  And I don't recall seeing any I knew of turning down whatever benefits the US Government allowed them...sometimes gained illegally. Not making a value judgment there, as I lean left regarding some immigration issues. Just stating a fact.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are you implying Ralph is getting his benefits illegally?
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, I'm saying I worked in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn for a short period of time. All the education on the matter you need.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What matter? Corporate greed? On Brighton Beach? Hardly
  
  But then you have your own views about education...
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  Leta Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, education on the matter of illegal immigrants from the USSR and U.S. benefits. As you well know.
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  rhamsonposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Diatribes and attacks is what your arguments outline. Definitions and absolutes are your basis. It sounds like a textbook. Whether you believe it or not this is what sets you up for the distortion. Trying to make square pegs fit in round holes is a distraction and slants your view. Maybe if you saw that a smaller peg will fit in a round hole is sometimes the answer. Maybe if you did not try so hard to make the world fit into your understanding of it you could open up a little and join the solution.
  
  I have to go but I am sure we will tangle in the future.
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prettydarkhorseposted 15 years ago
corporations should be left alone and the prices would just be determined by the force of market alone like raw materials, labor and tax. It is when politicians mess around that they system becomes a flak, POLITICS is power.
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Poppa Bluesposted 15 years ago
I'm sure we will, though I would prefer to actually convert you to a freedom lover than argue. Have a great night.
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
Illegal emigrants from Russia? I believe they should receive the same US benefits as illegal emigrants from Mexico!
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  Ralph Deedsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Misha, Medicare is great. You'll love it!
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