I was just in another forum and I've got to tell you this.
I have noticed that many people are under the assumption? that their belief system cannot be changed.
I find this to be interesting and wanted to explore other people's ideas about that.
Do realize- to form a belief, you must have "faith" in your own ability to discern truths about life.
A belief is believed true. Unlike truth, a belief system can be wrong.
What is truth? Truth is the collective value of all knowledge known to humankind.
If you lack knowledge about a specific item you believe, and form a belief based on just the knowledge you do have? Then you have formed a morally wrong belief.
How is it morally wrong? Because, you have shut off "common-sense" and learning, and you go against your own nature(human beings are adaptable(meaning they each can transform their life into what they want)). If you're not willing to learn, then you are no longer adapting to the changing of your life.
This is a detriment to your very own life. Yet, no one sees it happening.
Does common-sense factor into a belief?
And, if so, do you use it?
Those who cannot think in this abstract sense - I'm talking about children in particular - rely on what they are taught to form a belief.
Youngsters aren't able to analyze this.
This is one of my problems with the concept of religion.
Common sense dismantles belief systems.
Your post is very interesting You see you don't have any beliefs until You recieve self realization.Until then You are merely programmed by the society in which You are a member of.Faith conotes action,and we take actions on our specific method of programming.Ponder the commercials.Advertisers will tell you that a certain product is better than another product,even though both products have the same ingredients.A person would not respond out his beliefs,but out his programming.Rulers understand the herd mentality,and they use it to there utmost advantage.Beliefs are established through time tested experience.
You could try to sell me perfume all day long and if I don't love the way it smells I won't buy it.
If you tell me to believe like someone else, I can't do that. I believe what is truth such as evolution. I also believe what I have found to be true, not what I think to be true. That includes God. I know what I have experienced. I also use logic with my belief in God.
Wait...hold it...I think I could sell you some bad perfume if the situation presented itself.
And, thank you, Deborah. I think she demonstrated my point there...only she used the word logic...logic and common sense flow together (in the same circles so to speak.)
Obviously you don't know me very well, stick around you will.
What circle are you grouping me with? What do you know about me?
Are you about to call me "CHRISTIAN"?
You've demonstrated nothing with me. Please talk as though I'm here and not in third person. There's the operative word. Speak to me as though I am a real person. Please explain TO ME further.
hrmmm...this is what I was saying or trying to convey, Deborah...
...that people rationalize or mold their beliefs into some sort of "common sense". So, if one believes in God, then in their eyes it's unquestionably true; therefore, "in their mind" it's common sense.
And I didn't 'act' as though I know all the reasons people believe. People believe in whatever they want to believe in...my point, if there is a point to this overall conversation, is that most 'logical' thinking people believe they are using common sense in every situation...And, I don’t know if you're Christian or not. Is that relevant?
Sorry mate, but you got pretty tangled up in your thoughts. You say that forming a belief based on just the knowledge you do have mean you have formed a morally wrong belief... well you asked about the common sense and what you just said lacks any common sense at all.
How can you form a belief based on the knowledge you do not have? Everybody bases their beliefs based on the knowledge they have. According to you that means that everybody is forming a morally wrong beliefs. That's nonsense.
Of course we're forming beliefs based on the knowledge we have and as we learn more, so should our beliefs change. If what we learn contradicts what we already know than our beliefs get challenged and what many people do is disregard any new information as false, since for some their own beliefs are the ultimate truths.
Ray, you ask too many questions at once.
My common sense lets me believe this is truth
That's too funny
However can you prove that you believe this?
Common sense beliefs don't need to be proven, they are common sense
I agree. (the Kiss philosophy...Keep It Simple Stupid)
and in response to the original question of the op...Yes common sense plays a part.
Whats common about having sense? The view on the inside is far different than the one on the outside. The only way you could access the truths about a belief system would be to engage it with an open mind and heart. You would have to look past your own prejudices and assumptions and see. See the people together and do they act on their beliefs or are they just posers looking for a home. You would have to open your mind and heart and let your spirit in and let it move you then you would have a better feel for why people are steadfast in their beliefs. "Street Sense" has no place on the same plane as religious sense.
I have the same questions you do about this topic.
I just don't have the guts to post on it, good work!
Me personally? I consider myself an open individual, and I found out a long time ago that organized religion isn't for me.
That isn't saying that people that need that sort of support in their lives are wrong in any way, I just prefer to believe what I feel, see and experience ya know?
I consider my belief system ever-changing, something that grows and morphs into something new nearly every day, depending on the people I talk to and the things I experience in day to day life.
I feel that it's better to stay open minded in this aspect, but then again, that's just my opinion.
Thanks for this thread
One problem is that common sense operates within the scientific and social paradigms that are operative at any one time.
For example, in the centuries when the learned folks of the time considered the Earth to be flat, common sense would have maintained that it was inadvisable to keep pushing a ship forward into the unknown, because of the risk of falling off the edge of the world.
Secondly, common sense relies on the application of currently known facts (although these may of course prove to be incorrect some time later). Now follows the thought process that got me into big trouble at my convent school 40+ years ago:
If I _know_ something, I do not have to _believe_ it. It is known; it is an undisputable and proven fact (or at least I think it is!). Belief implies faith. In my opinion, faith allows for the possibility of doubt and uncertainty. That is why we speak of "a leap of faith". If I know something, I do not need faith in order to believe it, I simply know it.
So belief, IMHO, includes an inherent possibility that I may be wrong. Belief can spring from non-provable, non-scientific experiences.
This even happens in science. When Kekule first proposed the structure of the benzene ring, he was inspired by a dream of a snake eating its tail. It took a lot of hard work before he was able to turn this belief into a known fact.
Belief concerns matters which currently cannot be definitively disproven by science. I say disproven rather than proven, because I have been convinced by Karl Popper's arguments that absolute proof is impossible therefore the only way to test a hypothesis is to try to disprove it.
So, whatever beliefs I hold, spiritual or otherwise, include the possibility that they are wrong. If something happens to convince me I am wrong in a given belief, I will modify that belief accordingly.
ooOoooo good stuff indeed. Belief systems are (or should at least be seen as "flexible") I agree
The irrationality of a thing is no argument against its existence, rather a condition of it.
…when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, (Sherlock Holmes)
The people who ask these questions view everything with their ears, eyes, nose and taste. They never sit and observe their minds, feelings(sense)(emotions). If it isn't tangible it isn't real to them.
you're implying that to question is to question with a closed mind...when I find the exact opposite to be true.
If you have the ability to step outside the box and question...well...anything for that matter, then doesn't that make you more open in terms of what kind of "new" information your "mind" can pick up?
I am not in anyway implying that I am not spiritual, only that my spirituality is flexible
That's not what I was implying at all.
You misunderstood what I was saying.
Those who truly ask questions in order to learn has to do so with an open mind and not depend on just their five senses alone.
Oh yes, gotta love forum threads and other communications of this fashion. Without body language at times, confusion can certainly set in. My apologies.
I noticed after reading more that you didn't actually feel the way in which I'd assumed.
If someone's beliefs are ever changing, it means they are still on the path but have not arrived at the truth. However, at least they are walking toward the truth. Our beliefs about truth change but truth is always truth whatever we believe.
Then there are those who have tunnel vision and say..I know all truths, I will not listen to anyone else in any other form except the one I already believe.
I believe and have faith in you that you will never tell a lie, thats what my common sense is dictating me
You do have a point Cagsil, in fact, your question almost poses another question...Isn't it just common sense to use common sense when factoring a belief system? It's an odd question to post because I would think most people would agree with you.
Who is going to say, "I think you're full of crap, Cagsil. No, I don't use common sense to factor in my belief!"
I would dare say that even those who rely heavily on faith believe that they are using common sense. See, it's all relative based on one's perspective. (shrugs)
But to answer your question, yes, I try and use common sense when coming up with a certain belief. But, as THEY say, the more you learn, the more you find out you don't know anything.
Unfortunately, sometimes people do.
I've had that conversation twice with fellow hubbers. Their belief in god superseded their own free thought. I don't say that in a sense that I am analyzing them - they each said it directly to me.
I don't understand
This is a ridiculous statement. You guys act as though you know all the reasons people believe.
Belief in something you don't believe in is pretty hard. There's not much of the Stockholm syndrome around.
But there is, that's all I'm saying. I don't hold people's personal beliefs to be a problem.
But like I said, I've met two people here on HP who told me specifically that their own thoughts and emotions are irrelevant. They don't even count themselves as human beings, just servants. This is what I refer to when I say I don't understand.
Some people believe in, say... Astral projection because others say they have done it. I had no opinion but when I heard about it, I knew I had done it many times just didn't know what it was called. So then I began to practice..gave up and after I did, it happened again and again. This isn't a belief, this is an experience.
Now someone could say that's stupid and not real. But no matter what anyone else believes, it can't change my experience.
If you look around the world everything is duality. Everything has a polar opposite. But everything contains a part of it's opposite and you can't have one without the other..If you try to remove North, it will remain till you remove South. Because as long as South exists, so will North.
This can be applied to God and Creation. So I go by my faith, my experiences and by logic. There is much more logic but I don't feel like typing all night.
Ray you messed me up so bad I can only see out of my left eye and can barely type. HUH?
Deborah ~ (shrugs) I think we are saying the same thing. There really is no argument here. You are saying that you use what you experience and logic to generate your beliefs. I'm just taking that a step further by saying that, based on your perspective, you use common sense.
OK that's fine.
Just read over what you and the other person wrote.
Sometimes things are expressed and it doesn't say in words what we thought it would say.
No worries. I don't want to offend you.
I'd like to think that common sense plays a large role in my beliefs since personal responsibility is a big part of Wicca. Of course, I know most people don't view it that way
Personal responsibility is a big part of being a mature person. Common sense, a collective thought base, changes with time.
Not always I know a couple 12 year old... middle aged men...
Yeah and if you ask me? we're due for another "change"
I am quite resentful that people expect me to be a mature person. I defy common sense whenever I can get away with it; I frolic in a sea of irresponsibility when I think no one's looking; and sometimes I just frolic regardless of who's looking!
A belief is a component of culture; just like language, tradition, value system etc. It is passed onto us as we grow up by our nurturers and the society at large. We grow into it, so to speak. This therefore means that it becomes a huge part of who we are to the extent that it defines us. A belief system is created from the different beliefs that we encounter in our different cultures culture.
If it is therefore that the belief system becomes part of us, how then does commonsense come in?
I believe that using common sense is a choice that we make to counter or agree with a belief that we hold. Through education, acculturation. travel and all sorts of exposure to things that were not there when the belief system was being built, we suddenly find ourselves able to question things and not follow them blindly (as we did when building the belief system). Common sense holds that we take a step back and say "wait a minute, is that really right?
Common sense must never be set aside in favor of a naive conception of faith. To accept something by faith is a building block, but once your building is thought to be complete and in your eyes beautiful and functional, an earthquake comes along and destroys it. What is left? Some of the blocks are still useable and some are not. So you build again, bigger and better than before, using the good old blocks and finding some new ones. To live by blind faith alone results in bigotry, hypocrisy and a host of other nasty things. To quote Jesus, "If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a ditch." To quote Socrates, "The unexamined life is not worth living." I'm 71, been there, done that.
One thing my parents told me about common sense is that common sense is not common!
In Driving School, students are taught the importance of the emergency brakes. Once, when my car lost its brakes,I shifted into neutral and was able to get to a gas station. From there I called my Dad.He drove the car home by using the emergency brakes.Later we sat and talked about the situation.I agreed to use the emergency brakes in an emergency.
Then I was coming down a hill and the brakes failed. I used common sense- the emergency brakes; and that brake failed too.I took the car into a repair store and was told what I needed- brake shoes,pad,kit etc. I paid for that service; and after I drove a few feet from the repair shop, the brakes failed!
I believed that by forking over my hard earned money to a reputable car company I would obtain quality service. Eventually, common sense told me to sell the car and get a new one before I got myself in trouble. Repair shops believe that once you leave their premises,the next job you need requires a new work sheet and more cash.Common sense should tell the repair shop to provide quality service to customers who pay for it.
What common sense does not tell the customer is that the mechanics have to survive and provide for their families.These mechanics believe that if they provide quality service they will have fewer jobs. Thus, they have to create a repeat customer.
One situation can explode common sense and belief. Think about it.
If you've ever take a course in Psychology, I'm sure you have learned this:
All men have facial hair.
Aristotle has facial hair
Aristotle is a man
This is wrong because Aristotle could be a dog, a cat etc.
Aristotle is a man
All men have facial hair
Aristotle has facial hair
Why this is correct is very clear.
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