Trump's estimate of Puerto Rican casualties from last major storm off

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  1. Credence2 profile image80
    Credence2posted 21 months ago

    This was a major screw up from the Trump Administration. There is now talk in earnest about statehood for the American territory.

    Here is an article providing some background. Your thoughts?


    https://www.yahoo.com/news/study-hurric … 55727.html

    1. promisem profile image97
      promisemposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      If I lived there, I would trust the U.S. government even less than before. I would push for independence and reach out to China for help.

      I'm sure China would be glad to get even more allies in the Americas now that Trump is alienating all of them.

  2. Live to Learn profile image81
    Live to Learnposted 21 months ago

    I bring to your attention estimates of casualties in New Orleans, the twin towers falling...among others. Counting casualties is always more difficult than I would think it should be. Also, counting casualties after a disaster is difficult. Some deaths cannot be contributed to the storm, although the aftermath may contribute to existing problems which ultimately result in death.

    I read an interesting article about how we viewed the problem not as if it happened in America but as if it was a foreign country. They are kind of in limbo, to me. The majority of the residents of the island must support the effort for statehood. Since they have not, up to this point, I don't think it is fair to compare emergency response to states who are a part of the union. With membership, come privileges. One, of which, is being seen as part of the union by citizens.

  3. Castlepaloma profile image74
    Castlepalomaposted 21 months ago

    Been to Puerto Rico, and they had a US customs to go through.

    Did not realize the hurricane kill 4654 people. Then Trump commented that the Storm has not a real catastrophe.

    If it's more deaths than 9/11 twin towers, I say, it is. Minus all the Muslims celebriting on the street viewed from Trumps Window.

  4. Castlepaloma profile image74
    Castlepalomaposted 21 months ago

    Yes, go independent Puerto Rico.
    Who wants to be part of a 21 trillion dollar debt. Some Americans think Canada is the 51st State, my job is to reminds them, it is not.

    1. Live to Learn profile image81
      Live to Learnposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      I can't imagine one American thinking Canada wasn't its own separate nation.

      1. Castlepaloma profile image74
        Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        You haven't adventured deep enough into the southern parts. One southern guy thought polar bears would be a problem for me on our Toronto beaches.

        1. Live to Learn profile image81
          Live to Learnposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          Um. Not the same.

          1. Castlepaloma profile image74
            Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            Their are plenty of Americans that have no sense about geography and history especially about countries outside of America.

            Only 10℅ of Americans have a passports. When you see all the hick, hillbillies and rednecks who voted for Bush and Trump, that should rest my case and actually experience.

            1. Live to Learn profile image81
              Live to Learnposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              Lol. Look at the size of America and the variety of scenic views. A lack of a passport is not a crime, or an indication of anything.

              As to hicks and hillbillies. I say, whatever. Your negative judgment of any of my fellow Americans reflects poorly on no one butt you.

              1. Castlepaloma profile image74
                Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                I' m not going to stop being honest or live a lie.

                If you want to delusion yourself and say America has no very ignorant people like everywhere esle. Then your delusion preprogram of the American dream and most superiority is working.

                I'll keep it real, my aim is not to put down America, yet to share and conmutcate, like I do with everyone else.

                1. Live to Learn profile image81
                  Live to Learnposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                  The difference is, I wouldn't insult your citizens.

                  1. Castlepaloma profile image74
                    Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    Who have I abused or disrespected on line. Or have I ban anyone on hubpages Or who has ban me. You allowed yourself to be insulted.

                    I can't be insulted, Trump gets insulted a the time.
                    Because If it"s the truth I am learning something or confirming it. If it is BS I ignore it. Try that technology.

                    Yes, I would not live in the US again. Still have many friends and family there and never would wish them  harm or anyone, anywhere.
                    I do warm people to provent anyone form harm.

                    I hope you can understand or what is your point?

  5. Credence2 profile image80
    Credence2posted 21 months ago

    I don't know, I would welcome Puerto Rico as a 51st state, since membership has its privileges. Being so vulnerable to these disasters may have changed the direction of many toward statehood, over continued Commonwealth status or independence.

    It would be interesting to see how we could group the stars on a new flag with 51 stars. I welcome and am comforted by the added diversity that Puerto Rico would bring to America.

    1. Live to Learn profile image81
      Live to Learnposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      Puerto Rico would be a great addition. If that is what they choose.

      1. GA Anderson profile image92
        GA Andersonposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Why would they be a great addition?

        GA

        1. Live to Learn profile image81
          Live to Learnposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          The more the merrier, I guess. They are a Commonwealth. If they want statehood I have no problem. Now, if a sovereign nation wanted to join that would be a different discussion.

          1. GA Anderson profile image92
            GA Andersonposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            Hi Live to learn,

            I would accept Puerto Rico as a state for only one reason; we gave them "territory" status, which to me implies the possibility of becoming a state. I think we need to honor that implication. Otherwise, I see no benefit to the U.S. for adding them as the 51st state. To the contrary, I see a great cost with no benefit to the current 50 states.

            GA

            1. Credence2 profile image80
              Credence2posted 21 months agoin reply to this

              Why so dour, GA? Puerto Rico can become a domestic Cancun or Acapulco without the risk currently associated with Mexico while being much closer to the mainland than Hawaii. Wouldn't hurt people to broaden their horizons a little bit and become familiar with the Spanish language.

              1. GA Anderson profile image92
                GA Andersonposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                Hey bud, nothing dour about my thoughts. Just didn't stop to consider the benefits of granting statehood to gain a good tropical vacation spot. Whew! Talk about subsidies ...

                GA

                1. Credence2 profile image80
                  Credence2posted 21 months agoin reply to this

                  It will just like Cuba when they saw the wall go down during the Obama administration, the potential for tourism as an American state opens up opportunities to see the economy there rebuilt. It is at least as tropical as Hawaii, if not having an even more consistently mild climate. I am  excited at the prospect. If you build it, they will come....

                  1. GA Anderson profile image92
                    GA Andersonposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    Are you starting an "Annex Cuba" drive? Hell, why not.

                    GA

            2. Randy Godwin profile image92
              Randy Godwinposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              For that matter, why do we need Hawaii, GA? All those volcanoes and earthquakes, and I seldom eat pineapple. Why do we need such a distant state? How much do they add to our economy anyway? tongue

              1. GA Anderson profile image92
                GA Andersonposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                Hi Randy, What value could we place on the strategic military value of Hawaii at the time it was granted statehood? Does that count as a benefit to the other 49 states?

                ps. I do like pineapples, and recall quite a fondness for 'Hawaiian Maui Wowee'.

                GA

                1. Randy Godwin profile image92
                  Randy Godwinposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                  We don't need a strategic base anymore, GA. In fact, we need to start getting rid of those states dragging us down.  Not Georgia of course, but perhaps Alabama would be a good start. My grandmother always said, "The dumbest people in the world  are from Alabama!"

                  Who am I to argue with my grandma?  tongue

                  1. GA Anderson profile image92
                    GA Andersonposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    Hold on Randy, you should be thinking bigger. Let's all get behind California's Secessionists. That would equal at least half-a-dozen Alabamas.

                    GA

            3. Live to Learn profile image81
              Live to Learnposted 21 months agoin reply to this

              No benefit? You are starting to channel Trump there.

              1. GA Anderson profile image92
                GA Andersonposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                Really? Well, in a non-Trump administration, in 2012 and 2014, Puerto Rico voted for statehood. So why didn't the U.S. Senate take-up the issue?

                Although no such "benefit" conditions are stated regarding the process for statehood, could that have had a bearing on why our government hasn't acted on the issue?

                Could their thoughts, (our Senate), be similar to our immigration policies? Or should we, just from the goodness of our hearts, grant statehood, knowing the cost to our nation is not balanced by a benefit - beyond cultural diversity contributions?

                Were those two pre-Trump legislatures "channeling" the future Trump presidency?

                I think my channeling jumped its Trump banks when I said I think we should grant it statehood based on the implied future of becoming a territory.

                GA

                1. Live to Learn profile image81
                  Live to Learnposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                  I was surprised when you claimed a majority voted for statehood several times. I hadn't heard that. After researching your claim, I realized why. It seems, it is only true on paper through carefully worded non options. According to some.

                  So, America didn't jump at the chance to push statehood. I get it.  A large percentage of poor people there, a great big welfare system here...fiscal irresponsibility rampant there....a fiscally irresponsible, but better credit risk governing body here (so funds to possibly pillage).... a high percentage of uneducated mostly Democratic voters there to really sway the already precarious balance in national elections.

                  But, you did set the stage for me to learn something. I had always looked at them like every other peice of land that eventually became a state. I saw it as an inevitable progression. Once they decide they want to be a part, the wheels start rolling in that direction. Since the Supreme Court has weighed in against that assumption I need to step back to take the time to understand why.

                  1. GA Anderson profile image92
                    GA Andersonposted 21 months agoin reply to this

                    I am glad you were prompted to look into the subject Live to learn. I left out the overwhelming 2017 yes-vote for the referendum because it seems obvious that the hurricane had a major impact on that vote. (umm... and because it occurred during the Trump administration)

                    GA

    2. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 21 months agoin reply to this

      What would be the benefits fop America in bringing in a third world territory as another state?

      1. Castlepaloma profile image74
        Castlepalomaposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Puerto Rico is beautiful all round. US would be lucky to drain their well.

      2. Credence2 profile image80
        Credence2posted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Funny how that is, it was good enough to be a US territory since America's imperialist period back in 1898, but not good enough to be a state now? Would you have said the same about Hawaii in 1959 or Arizona in 1912? Maybe, we need to consider making either Israel or Norway the 51st state instead?

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 21 months agoin reply to this

          Why is that odd?  Do you view being a state the same as being a territory?

          1. Credence2 profile image80
            Credence2posted 21 months agoin reply to this

            Yes, when it comes to the option of every American territory to become a state if they so desire. In that sense, all American territories are equal in spite of the fact you don't like neither their culture or origin.

  6. GA Anderson profile image92
    GA Andersonposted 21 months ago

    When spin is as obvious as this thread's title,  it reduces the OP to just an argument, instead of a discussion.

    Wouldn't Pres. Trump's administration's estimates be a much more accurate - and less partisan - title?

    With a more accurate  OP statement, thoughts about why could be discussed. But with such spin the immediate response is going to be to defend the President, or, jump on the pile-on.

    Questions like who made the estimate and how did they count deaths are certainly good starts, but now we have to discuss why Pres. Trump made such apparently bad calls. Geesh.

    And just what deaths should be counted in the immediate aftermath? The ones caused directly by the  storm force; waves, winds, flooding, collapsed buildings, etc., or should deaths that came days, (or weeks), later due to a destroyed infrastructure, such as; deaths caused because there was no electricity to run life-sustaining medical equipment, (I have heard there were many such deaths), or deaths resulting from no road access, (due to the storm damage),  for emergency vehicles to get to post-storm accident and illness victims, (reports also indicate there were many of these), be projected and included in the immediate aftermath estimates? 

    How long after the storm should deaths still be counted as related?

    Then of course there are the reports that the Puerto Rican government was purposely under-reporting the death count because many of the deaths could be directly related to failed, (ie. corrupt), government practices, like; using allocated infrastructure monies for non-infrastructure purposes, or failing to stop illegal, (and dangerously amateurish), tie-ins to the electrical grid, etc.

    I think all of these points contributed to the president's administration's, (perhaps along with their own motivations), obviously way-off estimate. However, given the OP's spin, I am certain many will disagree and still blame Pres. Trump.

    ps. To those "statehood" comments; Puerto Rico has voted twice -- in non-binding referendums, (2014, 2017) -- to become the 51st state.

    GA

    1. Credence2 profile image80
      Credence2posted 21 months agoin reply to this

      From you of all people, GA, I would hope that could see beyond the obvious. It can be a discussion or an argument if you wish. That is if your heart really goes trumpidy-trump under your chest?

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/national … 47f90af2d3


      We all make mistakes, GA, but the sheer scale of the error borders on gross negligence as to how the numbers for casualties were gathered in the first place. I provide a respected source, unless you consider the Washington Post fake news? Truman said that the "buck stops here", ultimately the President is held responsible for American response during such catastrophes, particularly for a state or territory. I took the same attitude regarding Bush and Katrina. But with Trump boasting and literally breaking his arm, patting himself on the back as to his response during Hurricane Maria,  one would think that he would have taken the trouble to see that such an outrageous disparity between his reported casualty figures and reality did not merit his self-adulation. 

      So if it is spin, it is going in the same direction as the Earth's rotation, so it is spot on.

      1. GA Anderson profile image92
        GA Andersonposted 21 months agoin reply to this

        Yes Cred, me, of all people. Now let me see if I can further discombobulate you by doubling-down on my original "mistaken"  comment.

        Using your "respected" supplied link, (which I suppose was intended to show how wrong I was), I found statement after statement that said essentially the same thing I did - and on almost the same three point categories.

        "There was nothing her family could do. It took 20 minutes to find cellular reception to make a 911 call. Inoperative traffic signals slowed down the ambulance struggling to reach their neighborhood through crippling congestion."
        *this is a recent death that, although not part of the Harvard study number, is still being counted as storm related - 8 months after the storm, and is indicative of the type of "death" the Harvard study includes in it's "estimate."

        "More than eight months after Hurricane Maria devastated Puerto Rico, the island’s slow recovery has been marked by a persistent lack of water, a faltering power grid and a lack of essential services — all imperiling the lives of many residents, especially the infirm and those in remote areas hardest hit in September."
        *Applicable to this is a blurb from an Irish Times article
        *"Puerto Rico’s residents remain saddled today with an unreliable power grid, despite billions of spending and public-private partnerships overseen by the US government and the Trump administration that were meant to address the problem."

        "The uncounted
        Puerto Rico’s government faced immediate scrutiny after initially reporting that 16 people had died as a result of the storm, which strafed much of the island Sept. 20. That number more than doubled after President Trump visited in October, when he specifically noted the low death toll. The number kept rising until early December, when authorities said 64 had died.

        *those authorities were the Puerto Rican government. Your own link notes that each "Trump" estimate was the estimate provided by the Puerto Rican government.

        The official toll included a variety of people from across Puerto Rico, such as those who suffered injuries, were swept away in floodwaters or were unable to reach hospitals while facing severe medical conditions. One was a person from the city of Carolina who was bleeding from the mouth but could not reach a hospital in the days after the storm. After arriving, the patient was diagnosed with pneumonia and died of kidney failure. Another, from Juncos suffered from respiratory ailments and went to the hospital — only to be released because of the coming storm. That person later returned, dead."


        There are more "me" validating blurbs in your link, but I will just move on to this last note with a blurb from one of the Harvard study surveyors in a NY Times article:
        "Those conditions, he said, made clearer why the government’s official death count was incomplete. “Even if they were really doing a good job, it was really hard unless you did something like we did — go talk to people on the ground,” he said. People, he added, “died alone in their houses. Nobody went there. Some of them were covered by a landslide, and months after they’ve not recovered the bodies.”

        Would you say it would be the Puerto Rican government's responsibility to do that, or Pres. Trump's?

        Would you consider a presidential administration irresponsible for "taking the word" of the government of a disaster stricken area? Pres. Trump is personally to blame, (the buck stops there), for believing the Puerto Rican officials?

        Could you consider that the statistical estimate of the Harvard study is not an actual body count, (even if it's estimate is not disputed), but an estimated count based on previous year mortality rates, and probably not the type of effort any previous presidential administration would wait for before answering questions about a disaster-related death count in the near-immediate wake of the disaster?

        Would you demand that any administration wait for such a study effort before making any disaster-related death toll estimates? Tell the public they can't answer that question for three to eight months until a Harvard study is done?

        There, now look what you have done. Got my head spinning so hard I ended up defending Pres. Trump. That's just not fair.

        But you can help save me. Show me where I was wrong so I can recant and redeem myself. Please ... I don't like this "trumpity trump" beat in my chest.:-)

        GA

        1. Credence2 profile image80
          Credence2posted 21 months agoin reply to this

          I ll save you, you don't need to recant. The blame SHOULD be on the Puerto Rican government. I just can't  believe that these kinds of casualties is to be expected from natural disasters in the Unit d States or its territories. And I wish Trump wouldn't boast so much, so early. It not like it is Bangladesh or Haiti. If they had had the infrastructure of an American state, this might not have happened. So, I will withhold the trumpidy-trump for now.

          1. GA Anderson profile image92
            GA Andersonposted 21 months agoin reply to this

            Thanks Cred, at my age I was really worried about that "trumpity-trump" rhythm.

            However, I do agree with your point about Pres. Trump's declarations. They were inappropriately self-serving. And... by December, even he should have been more skeptical of Puerto Rico's numbers. But, as I believe was the point of your original intent, (without the spin), the "official" numbers were just too tempting to pass on.

            So you see, I wasn't really defending him, I was defending my point of view that even if he was at fault for undue self-congratulation, I don't think he was at fault for the actual estimates.

            GA

 
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