This is not a political question but a fact checking question. Just curious how the people have been affected by the shut down?
For me, not one bit. If the news did not report on this, I would not know it. I live in Westchester county NY about 1 hour north of NYC. I am retired, my social security check comes automatically into my bank account.
I drive to NYC once a week. I cross over bridges...
The mail gets delivered 6 times a week.
My garbage gets picked up twice a week and my recycling bin once a week.
I go visit my son in DC about once a month. So far, have not noticed any disruptions...
I went to reserve camp sites for this summer and saw a note that govt. was shut down and there was no guarantee that the campgrounds would be open. Unlikely, I think, as what I wanted was months out.
But beyond that I do get a giggle at the "It's YOUR fault! No, it's YOUR fault!". And a belly laugh, albeit a sad one, at the democratic mantra of "We'll compromise - by refusing to authorize a single penny for the wall. Your part of this wonderful compromise is to accept it and walk away without anything YOU want."
Republicans who aid and abet Trump are as much to blame for this shutdown as Trump is. You laugh at the democratic mantra? Really? And in the next breath you miss the Republican power drunks on another power trip? You missed that they allowed a money laundering mobster to live in the WH?
You missed that at every opportunity your Republicans blocked EVERYTHING Obama tried to do in 8 years but now allow a mobster the right to bring this country to shame with his now 8,000 lies?
I'd be more worried about how Mueller will use all that evidence of Trump and Freedom Caucus boys guilt over rigging an election.
Your Social Security check will continue to come in because of essential employees who are working even though they are not being paid. Your bridges are probably part of the state infrastructure. The mail is an entity separate from other Federal agencies. Garbage (of course) is a city/metro issue and has nothing to do with the operation of the Federal government.
But if you think that the closing of the Federal government has no impact on you, think again. The government is not amorphous entity. It is real people with mortgages, utilities to pay, children to care for, and all of the daily needs that you pay for your family.
You are retired, but if you were still daily employed and your paychecks suddenly stopped coming in, what would you do?
Those Federal employees still have a mortgage, creditors, and daily needs.
You probably live in a community in which Federal employees live and shop. What will happen to the stores that rely on their patronage? And that's just the beginning. What about the city/county/state programs that rely on Federal funds?
It's not about just you and me. It's bigger than that.
Yes, I know that, hence my question to all. How have you been affected personally?
Sure federal employees that are non essential are not paid now. However, it is temporary. When the government reopens, they will all receive back pay. You can view this two ways. One is perhaps our federal government is bloated. If we can survive without the non essential services of thousands of employees, perhaps they were not needed in the first place.
All I know is, in the private sector, during time of recession, business cut back and layoff people and it happens every day of the week. Yet, our federal government just keep getting bigger every year and the spending with the zero based budgeting also gets higher regardless of economic conditions. Perhaps that is why we are so broke as a nation.
The federal employees just get bigger and even when they break our laws like the VA employees, they are protected by the unions so that they cannot be fired.
Jack, I worked for the Federal Government for 30 years in budget and finance and so was one of those nonessential employees. But let's take this to a scenario that everyone can probably comprehend. A hospital. Who are the essential employees--the doctors and nurses of course. But what happens to that hospital when there is no billing, no maintenance, no one to pay the utilities, issue the paychecks? Even those "non-essentials" are essential but they are in the background. They are the players that you don't see, and maybe you don't need them for your every day life but they are part of what keeps everything going. The same would be true in private industry if, for example, we paid the cashiers who operate the grocery store but not the people who stock the shelves, pay for the lighting and heat, etc.
I am not saying all non-essential workers are not needed...
I am just raising the question if some of them are needed.
In the private sector, due to innovation and technology such as computers and competition, business have become lean and workers are expected to do much more...
It is one reason why Fed Ex can deliver packages and make a profit while the government runned USPS looses money year after year...
If national security at the borders is such a risk, no security from the TSA now on furlough is not?
The TSA is a joke. I fly many times and the TSA are clueless. Studies have shown they allow knifes through and yet gives 90 year old in wheel chair full body search...
Then you obviously do not live in a state affected seriously by 9/11. We lost 11 young men and women in our town here in NJ. When you can say the TSA is a joke, you show ignorance of how the TSA has kept Newark International and the NY airports safe.
Studies have shown that without the TSA agents, airports would be bringing in all manner of terrorists right under our noses. All of those knives were caught and confiscated. Nice that you forgot to mention that.
I live in the suburb of NYC. I volunteered to help the 9/11 museum..
The TSA is very ineffective. It is there for show. A better way is to use more profiling like they do in Israel.
Did you know the TSA already use profiling?
Have you heard of PreCheck?
That is exactly profiling. They have determined a group of people are very low risk for being a terrorist. They are given preferential treatment when boarding in airports.
https://www.vox.com/2016/5/17/11687014/ … t-security
Keep insisting you have all the answers. You don't. Not now and not ever and the proof is that your kind always are the ones who leave our government in a mess.
if you live in NY how do you not know about the TSA agents I saw at Newark International Airport for years? Keep up your insistence and I will just keep up MY resistance to your distortions of facts.
Some guys think they have all the answers. You've heard Trump claim he could be a general right? Turns out he had 5 deferrals and that bone spurs BS was diagnosed by the doctor who rented from Trump's daddy in a medical building Daddy owned on Hill Street in NY. More lies.
Our government must NEVER be handed over to profiteering morons.
"Sure federal employees that are non essential are not paid now".
That's not factual. Employees currently not being paid include(1):
54,000 Customs and Border Protection agents and customs officers
4,399 DEA agents
13,709 FBI agents
42,000 Coast Guard employees
2,614 ATF agents
3,600 deputy U.S. Marshals
16,742 Bureau of Prisons correctional officers
53,000 TSA Employees
Most of these are still required to report for work because they are essential federal employees, but they are not currently getting paid.
(1) https://www.appropriations.senate.gov/n … p-shutdown
These are great stats.
Our government has undergone numerous shut downs since the Reagan years...we survived those times and will survive this one.
The question should be about why?
If our democracy works the way it suppose to be...where elected officials do the bidding of those that elected them, there would be no reason for a shut down.
Precisely because the public have been decived again and again by politicians that lie. They cause this shutdown by their lies and their inactivity on this important issue for years and years.
That is why I call for a referendum.
When the politicians refuse to act, it is up to the people to decide.
"Our government has undergone numerous shutdowns since the Reagan years...we survived those times and will survive this one"
No doubt, but that's not really the point. These employees are ordinary men and women with bills to pay. How long before the lack of income starts to significantly affect the majority of them? Some might have enough savings to fall back on. Many might not.
There are already reports of an increase in TSA agents calling in sick (reportedly 200%-300% in some places)(1). The TSA says it's causing "minimal impact" but how long before it starts to cause significant impact? And it can only get worse, the longer the shutdown continues. Causing CBP officers to experience severe financial difficulties while trying to protect the border, can't be good for border security.
"If our democracy works the way it suppose to be...where elected officials do the bidding of those that elected them, there would be no reason for a shut down . . ."
Totally agree . . .
"The majority of Americans (57%) oppose expanding the construction of walls along the nation's Southern border"(1)
"Eighty-three percent of Americans favor or strongly favor a proposal to allow "immigrants, who were brought to the U.S. illegally as children, the chance to become U.S. citizens if they meet certain requirements over a period of time," while 15% oppose or strongly oppose it."(2)
"Just 39% regarded building the wall as very or somewhat important. The public’s highest immigration priorities were stricter policies preventing people from overstaying visas, preventing immigrants in the U.S. illegally from receiving government benefits, and allowing those who came to the U.S. as children to remain"(3).
. . . . if only the government would listen.
(1) https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/04/poli … index.html
(1)(2)https://news.gallup.com/poll/235775/ame … -daca.aspx
(3) http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 … ay-for-it/
I don’t buy that statistics. Polls can be manipulated depending how the question is phrased.
If it is true, Trump would not be elected president.
The makn reason he was elected IMHO was to deal with the border crisis.
He was the only one talking about it and making it front and center.
It is the establishment politicians from both parties that do not want a wall or strigent border security. They voted in the past for a fence and then failed to fund it.
So then those polls Trump uses are bogus too? Like the one about how he is the most successful of 44 US presidents? Or the poll that says he has 35% approval?
He wasn't elected,. He used Russians to help him win. We do not allow foreigners to donate to our elections nor influence them in any way,. Let me know when Americans get to influence Putin's election. He'd be gone in a heartbeat.
Whatever your view on polls, the fact is that essential federal employees, including those who protect the border, are currently not getting paid.
Immigration judges have also been furloughed, so the backlog of immigration cases is worsening each day too(1).
Under current legislation an asylum seeker can apply for authorization to work if 150 days passes with no decision on their application(2).
The average waiting time for cases in 2018 was 1068 days(3). Even accounting for the 150 days, that's over 2 and a half years someone without authorization can live and work in the country.
Are you sure increasing waiting times for immigration claims, and putting border protection officers under financial pressure is a sensible approach to illegal immigration and border security?
(1) https://thehill.com/regulation/court-ba … o-shutdown
(2) https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refu … lum/asylum
Don, what is your answer to this problem?
Tell us so we all ignorant people can understand how brilliant you are.
We are here at this impasse precisely because past administrations would not deal with it honestly.
The problems you describe with the courts and backlog have been accumulating for decades. As long we don’t address the border crossing issue, we will get more and more of it, with or without a shutdown of our government.
We have been pushed to the brink?
How many more people can you take in? Can we as a country absorb?
Would you open your house to undocumented immigrants?
Gime a break.
Here are my suggestions Jack.
1. base public policy on facts, not fear and lies.
2. develop solutions that are true to the country's founding principles and core values.
3. if a proposed solution doesn't meet 1 or 2, scrap it and start again.
And a personal suggestion: don't get annoyed because the facts don't support the narrative you want to believe. You'll end up being annoyed, and the facts will just be the same.
Based on the the first principle alone, the vanity wall proposal would be scrapped.
If you want to work through what a replacement solution might look like, based on current facts and using the above as guiding principles, I'd be happy to do that with you.
This is rediculous. Based on that criteria, any one in the 3rd world would be allowed in. What am I missing? Aren’t we all compassionate and our values is we believe in freedom...
I offered a solution and it is the only one on the table that works. If you doubt it, go to Israel and 30 some other countries that have walls. Good fences makes good neighbors... who said that?
Name the countries that have walls. Sweden doesn't. France doesn't. Italy doesn't, Greece doesn't, Spain doesn't. Nice try on that all countries have wall BS.
The only walls that ever existed in these countries were built for protection from the hordes of Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun and the Arabic empires.
Nice try, but Italy most certainly DOES have walls, and so does the Vatican (inside Italy). The rest of your list doesn't have neighbors trying to invade them.
As a matter of fact, some 65 countries over the world have built walls on their borders, and continue to do so. It seems an effective answer, although not a total, one-shot solution to protecting those borders. And it isn't to keep Genghis Khan or Attila out.
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/cou … walls.html
Of course Italy has walls. Were they built in the last decade? Nice try. The Vatican doesn't count since it has been granted independence from Italy's government centuries ago.
Why distort facts? Name all of the walls you mention built in the LAST 10 years ONLY. Otherwise, you are talking ancient history.
Israel Netanyahu is a militant who is about to get trashed by the Knesset. Israel has a wall but they are no innocent angels in that mess with the Palestinians.
Sorry but any Bible in the world mentions there was no Israel. It was always called Palestine. When you march in and take land that belongs to others, they do have a tendency to fight for what's theirs.
Isn't that what Trump thinks he'll do now at the southern border? March in with "HIS: military and take ranch land by eminent domain?
Want to see now fast our Texans haul out the guns and start shooting? Maybe the military could use Trump as a shield since his is the biggest mouth in the world.
Look, you can go and search online on youtube videos of top Democrats, Clinton, Schumer, Pelosi and Obama and others who have supported a fence on our southern borders? What changed?
They lost political power in the white house. That's all it takes to change goals, for they are not allowed to agree that anything, anything at all, that comes from Trump (or any Republican for that matter) is valuable. Good or bad, right or wrong, it must be fought.
You obviously don't know Trump if you think he is not on top of every decision. Nothing gets past that fake hairhat of his. He tells the world he'd have made a "great general" at what?
He tells the world he knows more than anyone else. I'm sure Einstein and John Nash, a 2 time Nobel Prize winner for economics would love to know that.
He's a strutting, swaggering, bragging, blowhard who hates details and picks up on anything right wingers throw in the wind. I am not that foolish.
Look you can insist like men with your kind of mentality always do. Did Clinton, Schumer, Pelosi, or Obama ask for $5.6 BILLION to build a wall 2,000 miles long when the DOE has stated dozens of times that a 2,000 mile long wall between the US and Mexico is idiotic. It's called engineering smarts. And I should know. I worked as a tech writer for environmental engineers, one with a PhD from MIT for almost 25 years.
That wall cannot span the Rio Grande River without Maggot Man claiming he OWNS the Rio Grande.
What could possibly make the Department of Energy an authority on the results of building a wall to keep out invaders? For that matter, what could working for environmental engineers possible do to make YOU an expert in it, either?
As an example of your own vast knowledge, are you aware that there is no need to span the Rio Grande...except where it is completely within our borders? No wall crossing that river ever need enter Mexico. or any other country, for that matter. Not Canada, not Guatemala and not even South Africa.
Stop repeating the lie. No one is calling for a 2000 miles long wall.
Why would you build a wall in places where there are natural barriers?
The 5.7 Billion will only pay for a few hundred miles of wall or fence or physical barrier or what ever the languate you want to call it.
This money has already been passed in the previous bills signed by Senator Obams and others. It just has not been approprated.
It makes sense to do so to stop this endless flow that is hurting Americans.
Your work for an MIT engineer PhD does not impress me. It has nothing to do with what we are discussing.
The question is do you understand the need for a wall? At some places along this long porous border? If not, all else means nothing. We have to just disagree.
"Your work for an MIT engineer PhD does not impress me. It has nothing to do with what we are discussing. "
Reminds me of an episode of "The Big Bang" where genius Sheldon was forced to take a vacation and went to work for his girlfriend. She put him to work washing beakers in her bio lab.
It has everything to do with what we are discussing. YOU are not an engineer. You live in Upstate NY in the ONLY Republican enclave of King's in that state.
You do not impress me with your baseless facts. I run circles around anyone when it comes to Trump's wasting our tax dollars.
You remind me of those old black and white episodes of Charlie Chan where Charlie ever the sage wise man had to constantly grab son No. 1 by the scruff of his neck and remind him he cannot compete with a wiser man. In your case...wiser woman.
So Trump is wasting money trying to protect out borders?
Did you complain about Obama wasting our money on Solyndra?
BTW, I love Charlie Chan...
I have had Trump in MY state for almost 2 decades. You cannot possibly be so obtuse as to believe this is about protecting his country. Trump only cares about Trump.
He is likely one of the most spiteful men you will ever encounter in your lifetime. The truth is that when Mexico dumped his clothing manufacturing deal he had with them, he was hellbent on getting even with all Hispanics, including those he was hiring here in NJ who were undocumented. The truth is he tried to pull another stunt by not paying what he owed. A legacy with him.
President Nieto of Mexico last week publicly announced that because of their fear of entering the US, about 80,000 immigrants "are bottlenecked in Mexico."
Unlike your concentration camp leader, Mexico provided whatever these immigrants needed. And before you ever dare again mention Benghazi, you better own up to the 6 US military who died in 2018 in Syria where HE put them. You better own up to the 3 little immigrant kids who died in Trump's TX detention centers. And now we are finding out that it wasn't just kids but the elderly in these concentration camps who are dying from lack of medical care. Proud of that too?
Obama didn't waste that money on Solyndra. NJ is NO. 3 in solar energy. Oil is not keeping us hostage. Our states plan to go the same route as Germany and reach a higher percentage of clean renewable energy. We're tired of paying for oil cleans, lies about why gasoline prices always go up and why we have to pay higher for cleaning up oil pollution.
YOU wasted money on allowing Zinke to fly on a private jet and military planes. You wasted millions on detention camps that have all decent real Americans furious that he would pull the same stunt that the Japanese had to endure during WWII.
Did you complain when his daughter and her entire family flew to Aspen to go skiing on taxpayer dollar? Or that he is charging Secret Service for staying at Mar-a-lago to protect him?
Don't talk about wasting money when he has a shutdown costing taxpayers billions every day and ruining the credit ratings of government workers. You lost an argument. MAN UP.
Charlie Chan was my all time favorite to watch when I was a kid. I have a special admiration for the Oriental culture. It is so full of gracious elegance, wisdom and the most unique deeply embedded knowledge of the ages.
Where were you when Trump told the public while standing at a microphone in front of the WH that wall would be 2,000 miles long?
I have no reason to lie but you do. Pushing your agenda and we the taxpayers end up paying the cost of more than just $5.6 billion.
Sorry but I worked with 2 MSMES and 1 PhD from MIT in Engineering as their tech writer/accounting manager for 24 years and 10 months.
Don't tell me that he didn't demand a 2,000 mile long wall for months during his campaign. We ALL heard what he said. Do you go conveniently deaf whenever truth is inconvenient?
First of all, several DOE engineers have warned Trump that the cost of that wall per every 200 miles would be $2 million. That doesn't count the cost of labor. So Trump figures, pull troops out of Syria and Afghanistan and use them as work mules to build his stupid wall.
There already is a wall of fencing. Trump agreed to a bipartisan deal until ProfHANNITY and Annie Fannie Coulter bashed him for backing down.
Sure, neither of those two care how much it will cost taxpayers. Where is the professional estimation of costs? Why haven't we seen an itemized list as all engineering projects ALWAYS involve of the costs of labor, materials and any legal permits and requisitions for land use?
I've written proposals for industrial clients as well as for the DOE for government bid projects. Don't tell me that extending the length of that wall to 2,000 miles won't cost more than $5.6 billion.
You guys can pretend all you like, but this isn't about a wall. It's about Trump. He is too much a coward to admit he has NO idea of the itemized costs of such a project and why should he care? It's not his tax dollars since we know he has been evading paying taxes for years.
Answer your own silly questions. Already the Texans whose land may be jeopardized by Trump taking it by eminent domain are suing.
Trump has NO detailed schematic or for that matter engineering project PID. Grow up and stop acting like little babies.
Then you obviously have not seen how many 3rd world Nigerians, Haitians and others enter the US through FL and the rest of the Eastern seaboard. Trump is lying as he always does and had to criminalize all immigrants when HE has brought in 5 of them, his first wife, Ivana, 3rd wife Melania Knavs, her parents and her sister. Daddy Knavs is a Putin supporter. Why was no background check done on that?
Not sure why you think basing public policy on facts and the country's core values would mean "any one in the 3rd world would be allowed in". That's a strange leap to make.
In the case of border security, using factual information would simply mean basing a solution on the fact that:
1. The CBP has done, and continues to do, a pretty good job detecting and apprehending people trying to cross the border between ports of entry.
2. The DHS continues to improve border security through a combination of recruiting staff, improving infrastructure (including new and replacement border fencing) and deploying new technology.
3. The country is not in imminent danger. It has successfully coped with periods of much higher illegal entry rates, which have lasted multiple years. Successful border crossings are currently at their lowest for many years. So while the number of people crossing the southern border illegally is an issue that needs to be addressed, it does not represent a "state of emergency".
4. Most illegal immigration results from people overstaying visas, not crossing the border illegally.
5. Most drugs are seized at ports of entry not between them.
6. There's no credible evidence terrorists have used the southern border to enter the country. Terrorists have entered the country from the northern border though.
7. Immigrants (illegal and otherwise) commit less crime that the native population.
8. The backlog of cases is not increasing because of illegal crossings. It's increasing because of a combination of increased (perfectly legal) asylum claims, and an immigration process that is slow and inefficient.
9. If an asylum claim takes longer than 150 days, the claimant can receive authorization to work. The average waiting time for an immigration claim is around 2 years 10 months. Therefore, because the immigration process is so slow, asylum claimants literally have to remain in the country on average 2 years 10 months while their claim is decided, very likely working while they wait.
All of the above are verifiable facts from reliable sources Jack.
If those facts were used to inform public policy, a full-length border wall would not be a main priority. Targeting locations where new or replacement fencing could be of significant benefit (based on analysis of illegal flows) might be one part of an overall solution, but it would not be the main focus.
That's all I mean by using facts instead of fear Jack. Do you think that's unreasonable?
You are not playing with a full deck.
Why do you suppose we are at where we are today?
If everything is hunky dory why did Trump get elected?
Are we just out to get those brown people?
You are making it worse by stating stuff that are contrary to our daily experience.
It is as if you see yellow on the snow and your telling your self it is just harmless gatorade...
We all see what is happening in our courts, our schools, our hospitals and our prisons... I served on a grand jury a few years ago in NYC. 90% of the cases I heard were people that violated our borders, came here comited serious crimes, arrested locked up and then deported...and rearrested...in some cases 4 or 5 times...it is like a revolving door and no one is seeing the problem and putting a stop to this. It is pure insanity...these people are given a public defender and treated like a citizen and given every opportunity under our laws, meanwhile they are laughing all the way to the bank...
Where is the justice?
I don't doubt your personal experiences Jack, but are you claiming that your feelings about illegal immigration, based on personal experiences, are a more reliable way to measure border security, than the data collated by the DHS over multiple decades and multiple administrations?
How reasonable do you think that claim is?
I obviously don’t know enough of the whole picture. But, I have experienced enough to tell me it is a problem and that over the years, it is getting worse?
Do you deny it?
I have been following the issues since 2005. I have written numerous hubs on this. I have also given this problem much thought.
To me, it is so obvious, I am surprised we are even debating it.
Every politicians knows it... yet they refuse to deal with it and kick the can down the road. How long do you think this proverbial road is?
I'm surprised we're debating this too Jack.
If you were getting new windows installed, you wouldn't base their size on how big you feel the frames are. You'd use a tool that gives you a clear, objective measure.
Likewise, decisions about border security musn't depend on how bad we feel the problem is. We must use clear, objective measures. Do you deny that?
Congress ordered the Department of Homeland Security to provide a clear, objective measure of border security(1).
The numbers I posted from the DHS, are that measurement Jack. They are what define the level of border security for the country. That data says border security is better than it used to be, and that's a good thing, not a bad thing.
Are you claiming the data is wrong because you feel it is? Be serious.
You are right about one thing though. The fact that 11 million people are already in the country without authorization (including children brought here through no fault of their own) is causing issues for lots of different reasons. Better border security cannot fix that. Only comprehensive immigration reform can.
DHS data tells us the Department responsible for securing the border has been doing its job. Is it too much to ask for Congress to do its job too?
Trump could have introduced a Bill proposing that members of Congress would not get paid until they successfully reformed immigration. Almost everyone in the country would support him (on that one issue at least).
Instead he hits the ordinary men and women who are actually doing their job protecting the border, by refusing to pay them and putting them under financial strain.
How is that in any way sensible or justifiable Jack? Be honest here. Who deserves to not get paid? The ordinary men and women who do their job patrolling the border 24/7 even now without pay, or members of Congress who don't do their job even while claiming their salaries and perks at the taxpayer's expense?
(1) https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-con … /2943/text (Fiscal Year 2017 National Defense Authorization Act, Section 1092, subsection b)
Don I am very honest. I have been studying this problem since 2005. I have written articles and written to our officials and have gotten no where in the past...
Only with this President and this administration that are willing to take a stand.
Don’t tell me about feeling...
It is not just a feeling.
The 11 million you say and used all over is not an accurate count of illegals. It cannot be. That number was used 10 years ago. You mean to tell me in the 10 years since, no additional immigrants came over the border illegally?
The number can be estimated many other ways. It is funny how our government who tracks everything by the IRS and NSA...and yet does not have a good estimate of illegals? Why?
Perhaps by choice, they just don’t want to know the answer.
If the American people knows, they would demand more action.
The DHS is a dysfunctional entity. They are demonized by the left and not funded adequately by the right.
We need to do a much better jog all around and it starts with the wall. Not 2000 miles but sufficent to close off the common access points.
Then, we can talk about fixing the rest of the broken immigration mess.
The only thing I have seen you provide here in this forum to support your arguments about border security, are your personal experiences and feelings.
Again, I do not doubt your personal experiences, but are you claiming that those experiences are a more reliable measure of border security than data collated by the DHS, because the DHS has deliberately (and successfully) suppressed data on illegal immigration for decades through multiple administrations?
Again, how reasonable do you think those claims are Jack?
Also, border security is about a method if illegal immigration. The personal experiences you keep referring to are mainly about the effects of illegal immigration. They are not the same thing.
It could be 20 million illegal immigrants in the country, or 30. That's not the point. The point is that even if all methods of illegal immigration were eliminated tomorrow, we'd would still see the effects of illegal immigration, because there would still be millions of illegal immigrants already in the country, with all the issues associated with that. Do you understand?
Simply put, a wall cannot fix the effects of illegal immigration or whatever negative personal experiences you have had as a result.
But this thread is about the effects of the government shutdown, so I'll try to stay on topic.
I wasn't questioning your honesty. "Be honest" was a figure of speech inviting you to be frank even to the point of bluntness, which is I felt I was being. So I stand by the question, but will rephrase the invitation.
Let's be frank. Who deserves to not get paid? The ordinary men and women who have been doing their job patrolling the border 24/7, or members of Congress who will not do their job and reform immigration, while benefiting from large salaries and perks at the taxpayer's expense?
"Simply put, a wall cannot fix the effects of illegal immigration or whatever negative personal experiences you have had as a result. "
But it CAN reduce future effects (or at least that's the theory). If it isn't a wand to instantly remove all illegals, only prevent future ones from entering, is that a reason not to build it? I don't think so - that argument is naught but an attempt to divert from what caused, what is at the root, of the problem.
"Who deserves to not get paid?"
Those that are unable to do the job they were hired to do. The politicians that have caused it to happen, from the house to the senate to the presidency. Of course the president already isn't being paid, but you get the idea.
Mitch refused to put the bills passed by the House on the floor because he was afraid it would piss off Trump and because his Republican senators do not want their constituents to know if they voted against Donnie's wishes. Mitch will be gone in 2020.
That's kind of the point. There is a lag between border security and the effects of illegal immigration. So the fact border security is significantly better than it has been for many years, doesn't mean the effects of illegal immigration will suddenly disappear. Therefore pointing to those effects as evidence that border security has not improved, makes no sense.
In terms of future effects, the DHS is continuing with the type of actions that get results, as confirmed per the DHS metrics for border security. It received billions in 2017 and 2018 to build new border fencing, replace existing fencing, invest in new technology and assets, and recruit more CBP officers. So it's already taking action to, as you say, reduce the future effect of illegal immigration. A vanity wall is surplus to requirements.
Now tell me what's currently being done to deliver the comprehensive immigration reform needed to reduce the existing effects if illegal immigration? Or to reduce the backlog of over half a million asylum claims? Or to reduce the over half a million people a year who overstay their visas? Therein lies the problem.
Cmon, Jack, the basis of your argument is lame and is what my problems with conservatives are. So, I am supposed to take your authoritative word on the nature of the problems over the professionals who have been gathering data in the field for years? And, as far as I am concerned these agencies are more objective in the presentation of data than you or any one conservative could be. How do we discuss anything with you when you say the encyclopedia is wrong and we are to rely solely on your Rightwinger's intuition in its place? You are going to have to do better than this, Jack. Why should I believe you over them? Is your attack on federal institutions as being the "enemy" part of this "deep state" thing the reactionaries are always harping about?
Jack makes his own rules. You should know this by now, Cred! He's the sole authority of what America should be.
Credence, I am not a reactionary. Believe it or not, I deal with facts and my personal experiences as Guide. When I write about is usually from first hand knowledge, if you know what that is. My experience with the immigration crisis goes back to 2005, when I served on a grand jury in the District of NY. I wrote about this unique eye opening experience. I won’t repeat it here. It opened my eyes to what was going on in our country and our courts... when I wrote to the justice department and complained about it, they send me a nice form letter and basically told me to go away...
That was the start of it and since then, I had numerous experiences to tell me we are dealing with is a real crisis, not manufactured. Unfortunately, both parties, democrats and republicans don’t seem to want a solution. As you know, I am conservative, even though I side with republican more often then not, i am not an ideaolog. I look for solutions and on this immigration, I disagree with the GOP. When Bush tried to come up with a comprehensive proposal, I was against it. Because I know it was a ruse.
You believe what you want, but I stand by all what I wrote. You still, after all these times, we have been conversing, you just don’t get me. Sorry but I do get you. That is the difference between you and me.
I don't blame them, Jack! I would've "basicasly" told you to go away myself.
Fine, I am gone. No skin off my back. I pose the question, you are free to ignore it. Why did you choose to come here?
Randy, credence, you know that I am a champion fencer right?
I can take you down in seconds with my epee...haha
That was how they settle things in the old days. A duel to see who draws blood first.
Touche. Take care.
The pen is mightier than the sword.
Jack it comes down to how we measure border security.
You say your "personal experience", like the number of illegal immigrants you counted during jury duty, is a reliable way of measuring border security.
It is not.
It's too subjective. It provides no common frame of reference. People have different personal experiences all the time, depending on who they are, where they live and lots of other variables.
To develop and deliver solutions to complex problems you need objective measures. That's why Congress ordered the DHS to publish metrics for border security.
Those metrics provide a common frame of reference. The methodology is published too. So if you and I calculated the figures ourselves from the raw data, as long as we use the published method, the result would be the same. It's not based on who we are, or where we live (or what court we did jury service in) etc. It is objective, not subjective.
In short, while I'm certain the "personal experiences" you keep citing, are very meaningful to you. The truth is, they say nothing meaningful about the overall state of border security.
If you have any factual information about border security that leads you to believe it hasn't improved significantly, I'd be happy to review it.
They’ve been studying this problem for 3 decades...
Don’t tell me it is getting better...
I see no evidence.
If anything they are getting much worse, and with each passing year, the immigrant population grows bigger and bolder and demand more...
The problem is ever bigger and the argument is it is too big a problem to solve so just let it go...
That is the reality and where do see our country 30 years from now?
"Don’t tell me it is getting better..."
Border security is one thing. The effects of illegal immigration are another. I'm not talking about the effects of illegal immigration. I'm talking specifically about border security.
So border security (not the effects of illegal immigration) has gotten better. I'm not telling you that though, the metrics for border security produced by the current administration is.
"I see no evidence."
You have seen evidence that border security (not the effects of illegal immigration) has gotten better. I've shown it to you. What you mean is you have not seen the effects of illegal immigration getting better. That's a separate thing.
As I said, if you eliminated all illegal border crossings right now, the effects of illegal immigration would not just suddenly disappear because there would still be many millions of illegal immigrants already in the country.
". . . with each passing year, the immigrant population grows bigger. . ."
I think you meant the illegal immigrant population, but yes I agree, it is. That does not mean border security has not improved though. It just means border security has not improved as much as we would like, but the DHS is still trying to improve it with more border fences, replacement border fences etc.
"That is the reality. . ."
The reality is that border security (not the effects of illegal immigration) has gotten better relative to where it was. That fact is beyond reasonable dispute at this point Jack.
But because you don't personally see an improvement in the effects of illegal immigration (as per your personal experiences) you are falsely concluding border security has not improved.
It doesn't mean that though. It just means there is a lag between the methods of illegal immigration (e.g. crossing the border illegally) and the effects of illegal immigration.
In other words Jack, it's entirely possible for border security to significantly improve, and for the effects of illegal immigration to remain the same for some period of time.
So even if that is true, why not put a wall in to stop all future attempts to migrate here.
In past years, immigration has risen and fallen on its own due to economic conditions. Should we accept this will be our fate forever?
It is a two stage solution.
The first stage is to stop the leak.
A wall will achieve that. Not only that, it will discourage future migrants to try... a good thing for them and for us.
The second stage is to deal with the people already here. I want them to be documented.
DACA needs to be addressed.
There needs to be a path for all these people to become assimilated to our society.
This will take time and that is fine with me.
It starts with a wall.
Otherwise, as in 1985, when Reagan gave them amnesty, the problem just got larger and larger. When no border security was enforced.
Really Jack? You would propose yet another round of amnesty for illegal aliens in the country? Encouraging yet more of the same, and hope that the wall is effective in securing both borders as well as air and sea?
Improve security, yes. Do something with DACA, yes. But no amnesty for a third (fourth, fifth?) time for those that have snuck in and violated our laws for years. We've already done that with the only detectable results being more illegals coming in.
What would you suggest we do with all those already here?
It is a dilemma...
I want them to come out of the shadows...
They can pay a fine, do community serivice...
There must be something we can do that is compassionate...
But it would only come after the border is secured. Not as a comprehensive plan which we already knew would not work...
They can go back to wherever they came from. I feel no responsibility at all for the people that intentionally broke the law day after day, year after year. I owe them nothing, and especially not citizenship.
The DACA kids are another matter - even though a great many SHOULD have made an effort to become citizens, and didn't, I do feel some compassion is in order. Particularly as we knowingly allowed it to happen and it wasn't their fault.
"So even if that is true, why not put a wall in to stop all future attempts to migrate here"
Because border walls are already being funded, as well as lots of other improvements.
The DHS received $1.6 billion in 2018 alone for "new border wall construction", $975.8 million for "tactical infrastructure and border security technology improvements" and $100 million for "recruiting, hiring, and training 500 new Border Patrol agents" etc(1).
So the DHS is already taking actions to "stop the leak". Explain how it's not.
In addition, for 2019 the DHS has been offered a further $1.3 billion for border security alone, which it can use to build even more barriers if it chooses. So again, in what way is the DHS not already taking action to stop the leak?
"The second stage is to deal with the people already here. I want them to be documented. There needs to be a path for all these people to become assimilated to our society. This will take time and that is fine with me".
Is it time to revisit what the Gang of Eight proposed?
"It starts with a wall".
Already started. And we can call replacement border fencing "walls" if that makes some people feel better. Either way, they are doing the same job.
And that's the issue. All of the above is being done to secure the border (stage one as you call it). That's good and necessary. Now list all the actions being taken to progress stage two: . . .
Do you see the problem?
There already is action on border security, but no action on dealing with the effects of illegal immigration. Should we wait until the border is 100% secure before going to stage two? It's likely the border won't ever be 100% secure, so that doesn't makes sense. It makes more sense to do both at the same time. The DHS is already building additional barriers.
Reforming immigration is where there needs to be some focus. There would be a lot of support for doing that.
(1) https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files … 0Final.pdf (DHS "FY 2018 Budget in Brief", p.3)
I would insist on 95% secure before moving to stage two...
That is key. As with during Reagan’s admin., many politician promised to secure the borders in exchange for amnesty, they did not mean to follow thru...true? What would be different now? With Pelosi in charge of the purse?
What would be your rationale for forgiving years and years of intentional criminal activity by offering amnesty? Because you feel sorrow for them? Because that's what we do - ignore the law and whatever transgressions of that law happen? What is YOUR rationale?
If this were done, Democrats should:
Quit lying about gun controls saving lives (1)
Quit supporting massive entitlement programs (2), (3)
Quit telling us illegal aliens do not cost us (1)
There are endless more (1,2,3)
Republicans, for their part, should:
Quite telling us abortion is murder (1)
Quit telling us God want us to do this or that (1)
Quit trying to discriminate against people (2) (3)
There are endless more (1,2,3)
And both sides should quit trying to endlessly push their personal goals after a decision/compromise was made (2)
Doesn't leave much, does it?
It's you who needs to stop pushing lax gun laws. Trump last year signed off on an Executive order allowing the mentally ill to own guns. That your idea of gun safety?
Conmen today are brainless when it comes to public safety. That's why nearly 500 people were killed or injured in Las Vegas.
How is it the two most densely populated states per square mile NJ and NY have not have the kind of trigger happy mass murders found in TX, OK, FL, NV and the rest of the CON states? It's because those are ALL states where men strut around with surgically attached guns.
When first graders are in danger from a nut whose own mother hauled him to a firing range to help him become a marksman and then he kills her in cold blood and then a class full of little kids, you need to rethink your conscience.
We are not the ones who use God as an excuse for years of boozing, womanizing and pedophilia. Do you need a reminder that your 3 Speakers of the House ALL had to resign in disgrace? One of whom, Hastert got away for 17 years with molesting kids?
Don't preach your religion until you and all those phony evangelicals learn to actually practice what you preach.
"How is it the two most densely populated states per square mile NJ and NY have not have the kind of trigger happy mass murders found in TX, OK, FL, NV and the rest of the CON states?"
It is probably because they operate in reality, not a fantasy land where one makes up "facts" to suit their bias. The highest murder rates are always in the densest populated areas, not the open fields of Tx, OK or Nv. Which, generally, means those states and cities that vote Democrat and which have the strictest gun control laws. Yet, somehow, some folks don't seem able to figure out that it isn't an inanimate chunk of iron that is doing the killing; it is people.
Did you catch Trump in the WH sitting across from Senator Schumer in that meeting to work out that deal? He said to Schumer and I quote, "I won't blame you for the shutdown. I'll take the blame."
Is this the politician to which YOU refer?
Very funny. The politician I refer to are Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schmmer, Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell...
They have ben there foreever and the immigration issue is kicked down the road till now.
Only Trump is willing to act...like he was elected to do.
You better hope Trump will not resurrect his famous excuse for NOT paying back wages as he did here in NJ. He calls a closure of his casinos and hotels and left 4400 employees without paychecks.
When asked why, he said, "They didn't work, so they don't get paid." It was a lie and they sued. Among all of his other lawsuits in the thousands.
Oh and by the way, his Bedminster NJ golf course got caught hiring undocumented workers and protecting them from getting caught. This from the great immigrant hater who brought his 3rd wife's parents and sister to the US and got them citizenship by pushing them ahead of thousands of others.
I will have to wait out the shutdown in order file my IRS tax returns and who knows if those who get refunds will even get them this year.
We are broke as a nation because 1% of the population holds 80% of all the wealth. How did that happen? Offshoring US jobs so they don't have to pay American wages, refusing to use E-Verify to check immigration status so they can avoid paying employer taxes for the undocumented immigrants who make their profits from them.
Our federal government is the appropriate size for a population of 325 million Americans who PAY the taxes that keep the government running.
This country is in a mess because Republicans have privatized government "to make it smaller" and in the hands of thugs like Trump, Sessions, Zinke, Pruitt and Scott. All those good ole white boys who view our government and our tax dollars as their personal piggy bank.
We, the people" remember? or is They the rich the only thing money hungry thugs care about these days?
Not to worry, that fat Republican tax scam that handed billions to corporate welfare and billionaires is about to end. wahhhhhhhhhhhh ...wahhhhhhhhhh that the cry babies of the 1% whining how they can't afford another ten billion in their piggy banks?
They don't earn their wealth. They point and delegate and their employees they stiff constantly earn it for them. Time to take an axe to the affluenza.
He may be retired but he forgets that by furloughing thousands of TSA agents at airports, he may be enjoying another 9/11 terrorist attack when there is NO airport security.
The TSA is a joke...how can you expect someone getting $10 an hour be professional...
Yeah, I'm certain I'd be inconvenienced if I flew, but in day to day life, no big deal.
Japan and Germany are so far ahead of the US that they are already testing out short term flights using solar fuels.
The most serious problem with right wingers I see is their vision goes only iin one direction: backward. Never forward. If you tell them about any hi tech advancements, they find some ancient reason it won't work.
How on earth can any country show any progress with these backward minds? Every scientific breakthrough is met by them with denial.
You miss understood the word conservative. It is not backward thinking but as in conservation...and conserve what is good and tested over time and reject hairbrain ideas...
I worked in technology and we brought some of the latest and greatest to the public. We did so because it was the right thing to do...and making money at it. Profit is good. It funds the next project and pays the bills...
A great news story about my nephew Chris Lee out in San Diego...
He is doing something about this...and trying to start a new trend.
How about it Jeff Bezos, mark Zuckerberg?
http://www.cbs8.com/story/39776019/san- … nstalled=0
Our whole family are very proud of him.
OK, but this is getting far removed from your original question. Am I personally being affected by the government shutdown? No, and you apparently are not either. But our communities certainly will be affected as wage earners who spent dollars have to cut back on their spending. This will eventually hurt small businesses at the very least. As I stated before, it's bigger than just you and me.
Ok, I’ll buy that answer. So let me ask you this question? Which is better for our economy? More people working in the private sector and making products and services other people want? Or more government workers who spend tax dollars but do not create anything?
It is a form of the old Reagan question - who is more efficient at spending money? People or government? Not that one or the other exclusively but relatively speaking, assume both are needed and necessary, which sector is better at making decisions about buying?
Reagan’s point is a higher tax on the public, takes money away from the individual tax payers who can better decide where to spend the money.
He lowered the tax rate from 70% down to 39% and the revenue to the IRS went up, contrary to conventional wisedom...
Oh please. More people working in the private sector? Get real will you? Corporations no longer hire permanent full time workers. Today, they make billions in profit hiring in what they call a "gig economy" where workers cobble together 3 part time jobs to earn what a full time job used to pay.
And how is NO employer paid benefits an employee benefit?
The reality of jobs in the US is that the December report was a joke. Of course there were 350,000 jobs added in December. That number is the same EVERY year because these are ONLY seasonal jobs.
Do you really think these fat cats will keep these employees on in the dead of January when there are massive slow downs in consumer buying?
You can blame ACA for the shift to part-time workers from full time work.
The rule of mandatory healthcare coverage for all full time employees of companies over 50 employees. That forced many employers to reduce the hours of their employees. You can fact check me...
Nice try Jackie my man. But who makes ALL the decisions on hiring and firing? And if you are contemplating using that "Poor Big Business" nonsense that having to offer healthcare to ALL Americans is such a HUGE drain on their profits, you're posting to the wrong person.
I worked on Executive Row with 3 major corporate CEOs. How much of the profits their employees EARN for them do you think goes to lobbyists and their favorite politicians?
Employers forced? MY left pitticus. Were employers FORCED to accept OUR Tax dollars when they got tax subsidies too?
We've heard just about enough of the poor big business BS.
Jack, I understand your point of view and cannot totally disagree. But does government grow on its own volition or because the populace demands more and more?
May I say that you and I will probably never agree on this issue. I have read your articles for quite some time and although you and I are very different politically I appreciate that you are always very respectful in your discourse. We can agree to disagree but not be disagreeable. Thank you for the conversation and for engaging in a well-thought-out and civil manner. You're a good guy.
Jack, you made a comment above to which I would like to comment. You asked why companies such as FedEx can deliver packages and make a profit but the USPS loses billions of dollars. The red ink of the Postal Service has nothing to do with their efficiency. That's a misconception that has been tossed around for years. Much of what eats up revenue at the USPS is paying for employees’ benefits. Congress has mandated that the postal service pre-pay over the next decade all future expected healthcare and retirement benefits. As an LA Times columnist explained:
"Those payments totaled $38 billion through 2011, with further installments of between $5.6 billion and $11.1 billion a year due through 2016. At least $34 billion is still owed, according to the annual report. Conservatives who maintain that the USPS should be operated profitably, like a private business, fail to explain why the service should be burdened with a prepayment mandate that its competitors don’t face."
So, that is a problem with the govenment’s business model. As you say, the pension is a big part of the cost. This applies to many local government workers including teachers and union workers...
They make these expensive pensions arrangements which they cannot fund...
I say, if they can’t do it efficiently, they should go out of business and let the private sector handle it. There is no magic about delivering mail or packages.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but government employees like all US employees today contribute to their pensions. But they get raided by Republican moocher states who are too lazy to create real industries in their states that are worthwhile and profitable long term.
Instead, they want 13 donor states to pay the lion's share of federal taxes which increases these donor states state taxes.
Let's stop with the lame excuses. If Republicans had their way NO ONE would be able to retire. I know that because I worked for an ultra conservative Republican who stiffed us on our 401Ks and when he was done ransacking it, he moved on to refusing to allow any salary increases for 15 years.
Men like him create poverty and then complain about the poor,. If an employer crashes your 401K you spent years saving for and gets a petty $7,000 fine which he paid by NOT increasing wages for 15 years, tell me what your options are to avoid relying ONLY on SS?
Social security was never meant to pay for all your retirement expenses. Every since I started work back in 1974, it was drummed into me there are three components. Social security, pension and savings. The 401K plan was started in the early 1980s. It was an incentive for people to save for their retirement. Unfortunately, some 50% of the workers choose not to participate. Therefore, you are suppose to save as well. A good rule of thumb is 10% of your gross income.
If you started in your 20s, by the time you retire in your 60s, that is 40 years of investment and growths and gains...
You should have a nice nestegg even without social security.
That will be $50 for a basic lesson on saving for your retirement.
Unless you work in a govt job or contract with the govt. Like those now working for free or delayed pay during the shutdown. You forgot to mention this for some reason....
What do you mean? It apply to all workers.
You are also adviced to have saved 6 months of expenses in cash.
This is for emergencies like getting laid off from your job or furloughed...
So, when the government shuts down, you should have enough in your cash account to last 6 months.
For others that lost their jobs, it is so you can have time to look for a new job....
Again this is common knowledge. No one should be living paycheck to paycheck...
That will be another $50 fee for you my friend.
Even when your employer claims it's a profit sharing company as Trump does and then claims year after year there are NO profits?
Even when an employer like Trump refuses to hire Americans at American wages as he did in his Bedminister golf course where he and his staff not only hired undocumented immigrants but protected them from being caught by ICE?
Even when employers pull their BS and hire part time only to make bigger profits? Your post is illogical.
In order to save 6 months of your wages, you need a full time job. In this part time gig economy?
This comment from you is a home run, Ewent. Somebody ought to tell Jack that most people do not have six months of wages for such a stupid eventuality as this shutdown.
It was very telling that the CLOWN in chief certainly has used undocumented labor as part of his evil empire. I begin to have just that more of a strong aversion toward Trump and his dishrag support, that grows with each passing day.
Read my article on this site about the Gig Economy. This is yet another corporate game these CEOs play to avoid ever again having to pay American wages.
Look at how jobs in America have changed from permanent full time to part time project work.
Oh sure they love, love, love to blame computers for it all. Really? And do the computers make the profits that go offshore in bank accounts too?
Since Reaganomics, the Republican Party has been hellbent on forcing the entire government to be privatized. Pure profit for profiteers of Big Business.
So they dropped traditional pensions in the 60s, too expensives they wailed. They implemented 401Ks which companies were supposed to match. Now? Find me a big corporation willing to match what employees deduct from their paychecks. If they do, it's a petty 6%.
How is it the top US billionaires ALL earn 80% of all the money in this country when not a single one of them breaks a sweat? It's their employees they refuse to pay living wages to who are earning those profits. NOT them.
They wailed how expensive employer paid healthcare was and never once mentioned that cute little detail how by signing on more than 50 employees the Big Bucks Boys got a nice cut in the cost of THEIR healthcare?
And oh yes. We all know they are not supposed to make a profit when they impound our state and federal tax deductions. Nice how they hide how they put those impounds in an interest bearing account and keep the impounds until the last week of the quarter before they hand them to the government which by then means they've made a tidy little profit on YOUR payroll deductions. How is that not stiffing employees even more than they do when they refuse to increase wages or provide paid benefits?
Why do you suppose they, the evil corporations, kept wages low? It is not rocket science?
While you are thinking about that, why do you suppose most of the advances in science and technology came from the US?
I worked on Executive Row most of my 3 decades. Every day 5 days a week, 8 hours a day, I was never less than 10 feet from any Executive and heard them say things that made me cringe.
They kept wages low because the lower our wages are, the fatter their profits are. When I worked for 2 international companies and worked on their budgets, don't tell me I didn't see how they find loopholes to avoid paying taxes and increasing their employees wages.
In one of those companies, it was always the same tired out old mantra, "We didn't earn as high a profit last year." Really? So why on their annual budgets where they so able to hand their favorite lobbyists a few million to make sure the government passed ONLY laws favorable to their business interests. They don't call them "special interests" because they are living in ghettos or driving around in jalopies.
I'll give you the best example I saw of corporate welfare. When the 401Ks first became a way to drop companies having to pay traditional vested retirement benefits, they got a huge increase in their profits because they were NO longer the sole payers of those traditional pensions.
Corporate welfare? Like when they figure out that they could make a HUGE profit by not paying for employees healthcare insurance even when their employees worked in dangerous workplaces. How much did that add to their profits? Billions.
Worse,, they figured out with all of these new profits, they could invest those profits in big time investments offshore. Forex investments that went belly up in 2008.
Not to worry, they just get taxpayers to hand them billions in tax cuts and tax subsidies so they NEVER have to touch a dime of those profits sitting in offshore accounts TAX FREE at a price tag today of over $47 trillion.
Who paid those lobbyists in 2015 to get Republicans to vote against Obama's plan to repatriate all of those tax free dollars and tax them?
I sure would to not have to break a sweat and get my workers to work for free like Trump has done when he doesn't pay them what he owes them as he did here in NJ. Too bad, I'm now stuck paying off his 6 corporate bankruptcies while he and the Nude Porn Model live on Russian white beluga caviar. Not to mention the unemployment these workers had to collect from a 3 day warning of his closing his 2 hotels and casinos.
Sorry Jackie my man. But nothing you say will ever come out being less than greedy.
It doesn't take rocket science to figure out that when you and others of the same mind set decide that what others have earned actually belongs to you, and you take steps to take it from them, they will protect themselves. And one of the easiest ways is to take that wealth beyond your grasp; offshore.
What's amazing is that so many people don't seem able to figure that out: that no one likes having what they worked for taken from them to give to someone else. That continued plucking of the "golden goose" will eventually kill that goose, removing any golden eggs from your hands forever.
When we decide that we want 70, 80, even 90% of what a person earns, and will use force to grab it, we can be assured that they will do what they can to protect themselves from our greed. And they do.
Right now, those big corporations pay on average, with all tax cuts and subsidies factored in about 6% in taxes. You and I and most all Americans pay between 28 to 32% tax.
In a strange way? These money hungry, money grubbers are freeloaders of the elitist kind. They don't like having to work or break a sweat and get others to do the dirty work for them.
Not unlike when those rich plantation owners decided they could become wealthy if they paid NONE of their slaves.
We are not the greedy ones who keep $47 trillion untaxed dollars offshore. There may be some who will work ONLY to make someone else rich, I am not one of them.
If I don't get paid what I am worth, I don't work. Period. Let them get some dope who knows they are underpaid and is desperate enough to take whatever scraps a billionaire throws their way.
We decide that 6% is NOT enough when we are the ones they are taking those tax cuts and subsidies from. We don't get them and neither should they. Why are we rewarding business owners who hire offshore laborers at $11 a month? Why should WE have to work to pay for the taxes they are NOT paying?
My name is Jack, not Jackie, your answer is wrong. The reason Corp. pay low wages is because of the law of supply and demand. When there is more workers seeking the same job, the wage of that job is reversely affected. The same goes the other direction. Because we have so few Dr. their salary is very high. We are paying for a skill that is in short supply.
As for pension benefits, I agree with you the workers have been shafted.
I worked for a large corp. that used to have defined benefit plans. Which is your traditional pension plan. They converted to a defined contribution plan back in the 1990s which was a big saving for the companies. In this new plan, the workers contribute to it and the company matches some portion and the balance is kept for the individual and portable when they leave.
However, the amount is a lot less compared to the traditional pensions.
I was lucky because I was an older worker and my plan was grandfathered in.
I retired in the early 2000s with a full pension of old. I can collect till the day I die.
The new plans are more flexible but they will run out as people withdraw from their account year after year.
It is not as lucrative.
That is the new world we live in...
You mean like the law of supply and demand that Maggot in the WH created with his tariffs? Ask the soybean farmers about supply and demand. They can't supply China with those soybeans and there is NO demand.
I am so fed up with men with wrong headed misleading ideas about supply and demand. Natural resources are only affected by supply but NEVER by demand.
Right now JACKIE, more than half of the Eastern seaboard no longer NEEDS oil. No supply. No Demand.
What an excuse to try and palm off on someone who has worked with estimators, CFOS and logisticians in the US, the Far East, Scandinavia, South Amerca and Europe to supply those companies with their raw or manufactured materials. Try again. You are losing your argument.
Where is the evidence half the people don’t need oil?
You are just making it up...
You can call me by any names if it makes you feel better but it does change the facts or the laws of economics...
You are delusional if you think big business is source of the problem.
They are a business. They invest and produce products and services people want, just like Apple and Google and all other corporations. They make profits which is given to their share holders. This model has worked to build the strongest and most profitable country in the world the US, and has created the most wealth for the most number of people. That is a great success story...
If you have a better economic model, please share with us and show results please.
Otherwise, you are just blowing smoke...
Where? Leave your state once in a while and you'll see here in NJ even the schools and municipal buildings are on solar. Trinity Solar in NJ has over 2 million customers and they are just ONE of hundreds of solar energy companies.
The only delusional individual here is you. You want to approve big business corruption, keep all of us hostages paying the taxes they OWE and then stiffing employees on living wages.
Name me one CEO in the US who lives in a ghetto or drives a jalopy.
We don't hire ourselves. (not true in my case, since I've owned a business at a very young age, worked for corporations in my middle age and now I'm self employed as an online writer.
Sorry but the days of Americans allowing men like Trump to get away with corruption are OVER. He will go to prison if not by the Fed by the SDNY for his fraud.
Your delusions needs to be seen to and altered if you think we will just continue with the same old same old when we know the prime objective of every Big Bucks Boy is to own the government. NOT on MY tax dollars.
What a joke. new Jersey is one of those states that capitalized on the solar credit and put up solar panels on every block on every telephone pole. As it turned out, they are useless, and ugly besides.
I wrote a whole article on this a few years ago.
Despite all these actions, the actual solar portion of our energy use is in the 5% range. Not anywhere close to 50%. This is not hard to verify. Either you are correct or I am correct, there is no grey zone.
Please go do the fact check and get back to me and apologize.
A couple of years ago I had the experts out to the house to do a study on putting in solar for my home. I'm total electric, no gas, no oil, no wood - just electricity for everything.
Turns out it couldn't be done economically - that my cost for energy would go up after installation, not down. And that didn't include the 30% cost being charged my neighbors for my installation, it didn't include maintenance of any sort and it didn't make me able to go "off grid" in any way. Even without those costs/considerations it still was not economically viable.
Thank for the invitation to read your article, I will have a look.
The fundamentals are that the corporate class will strangle us all for their beaten gold. Privatization will allow them a Carte-Blanche to do whatever they please. Why else did they fight tooth and nail against Senator Warren's brainchild the CFPB, Consumer Finance Protection Bureau? It is always better to leave the man in the street with no recourse while the robber barons fleece you blind?
The Rightwinger is deaf, blind and DUMB. A public sector is required because the interest of those with the bottom line being profit is not always consistent with societal needs. I don't want Thurston Howell in charge and trusted to run it all.
Trump has never hestitated to offer his employees a "stiffie" whenever he could get away with it, how can America under his reign expect to do any better?
It is not about immigration and jobs, it is about outsourcing, cheap labor, exploitation of the labor already here. Automation is a part of it, I believe.
I am lucky to have got out door with a traditional pension that is now shut, so now people can be duped solely by 401Kons, while waiting for a redux of the 2008 tsunami.
The point is that neo conservatism means forcing working class Americans to work and get no where. Who works and remains poor?
The price gouging on the products we need to survive don't come from us. They come from those Big Bucks Boys who hold those executive board meetings to see where they can make "cuts" so they can splurge on lobbyists who'll dump more of their tax obligations on their own workers.
This has been a long time coming. Remember when Gingrich told the country he and his conservatives were creating "A contract WITH America?" That became a contract ON America." Next, their mantra was "Prosperity for America" which ended the GHWB presidency with a "Disparity ON America."
Now they want to foist "MAGA" on us. That "G" doesn't stand for "great." It stands for "GRATE" yet another cute little tag line they expect us to swallow.
Neither were banks supposed to use 80% of our deposits in their banks for Forex investments that went badly in the Sept. 2008 Financial Meltdown.
Let me give you a reason SS is MEANT to protect Americans from the thieving big business boys and banks. Before the crash of '29, my uncle Ben had saved $7,000 in 1928 to buy his first home. My other uncle had saved $3,000. Because of the crash of'29 every dime in banks was LOST.
That left millions of people out of work. You lie when you claim Americans should not rely solely on SS. Even when their employers like mine cheated on the 401Ks and crash them? Even when Enron stole 33,000 employees retirements so Kenny boy and Skilling could live like pigs?
Get a clue will you? Many employers are like Trump. Grifters who know how to spend the profits their employees earn for them and then cheat their employees out of their rightful share of those profits.
Or, as my former employer told another employer in our building, "I can cheat my employees easier than I can my customers." That what you call honest?
+10000000, Exactly! People have to take responsibility for their future, it isn't the government's job to provide for their future. You are correct, Jack. Sad that many people believe that the government should provide for them in their old age!
Sorry I wasn't allowed to demand a wage increase from a right wing control freak Republican. And oh how I would have love the skinny on when he trashed our 401K.
Make sense or stop posting. The only men in this country who have all the answers are all the WRONG answers. When did the heavens open up for you only and grant you super powers to control fate?
People like you are the first to make sure you get every cent coming to you even when you have to rip others off to do it.
Or the government could do what has been done here in NJ for decades, promise to pay for government employees' benefits and then accrue billions in the money these employees' paid by using their payroll deductions for everything but their healthcare and retirements.
He whose mouth makes the decisions, gets the responsibility for those decisions.
Well, I just watched the state of the union with my liberal Democrat cousin. I cheered for President Donald Trump and she gagged. I felt nausea when Chuck Shumer and Nancy Pelosi spoke, she was inspired.
I just don't see how we can come together on this. We left and the right see things too differently. The criminal statistics provided by ICE and Homeland Security about illegal aliens means nothing to the left. I don't understand this.
My cousin did get upset when I asked her why Democrats value illegal immigrants so much more than American citizens and legal immigrants. They break the laws and Democrats will give them more benefits than American citizens. Illegal immigrants don't have to work, and only need to have children to get a refund from the IRS. This is crazy!
I know there are those of you who will ask for proof so here is a link for you to read. Factcheck.org...one of the left's favorites.
https://www.factcheck.org/2012/05/tax-c … mmigrants/
Why don't Democrats like American citizens and legal immigrants? I don't get it. To me there is something wrong with this.
For the record since we watched in my house I wore my MAGA hat. She brought over a cut-out face of Nancy Pelosi and put it in front of her face when she talked. Oh, we had some fun.
BUT...I'm losing hope we'll ever agree on the topic of border security.
Your fact check article makes a good case regarding the problem.
I am fervently on the left politically, yet I find this a distressing problem if it is as presented from your evidence.
No one should be getting tax refund money if they as not authorized to work here.
But that has nothing to do with wall jumpers but more to do with the fact that there is no system in place to vet potential labor as to their being "legal". The Right bears its share of the guilt with its obsession and drive for cheap labor. Is that the reason we are so slow to get after the supply side of this equation? I am all in favor of using any and all tools to create a system to make it virtually impossible for undocumented persons to work here if not authorized or receive tax credits .We have the technology, but where is the will?
Until this part of the equation is addressed, I see the talk about illegal immigration as just more Right wing xenophobia, and that goes no where with me.
Don't believe a word these bull cons tell you. I had to write an article for a CL online about warehousing in NJ. In order to do that I went to the largest landport warehousing area that is nearly 10 miles long.
Here is what I saw first hand. Mini buses dropping off undocumented immigrants every morning at 8 AM and picking them up at 6 PM.
So after seeing this, I was able to interview 3 of these immigrants. 2 are legal, the other not. Here is what they told me.
Some of these warehouses are owned by companies whose names you'd know in a heartbeat. I got the facts from them that these companies avoid paying any employer taxes by hiring through an undocumented recruiter who hires undocumented immigrants. Why? Because if they were on the books either the recruiter or the company who contracts with the recruiter would be in serious trouble for not using E-verify to check immigrant status.
But wait. It gets worse. Because they are hired by a recruiter/employer who works on these big companies commissions paid for each immigrant they hire for the companies, these recruiters keep workers on only 90 days in order to collect a fatter commission.
These immigrant workers are told they pay state and federal taxes by the undocumented recruiter/employer who then pockets all of those payroll deductions. There is no documentation so they get away with it.
I'm so fed up with the lies of these middle age 40 and 50 something white male bullheads. Who raised them? Mammy and Pappy Yokum?
They refuse to get a better education that fits the jobs out there. So they continue to hold us hostage by demanding we heat and coal with COAL and other fossil fuels.
Enough is enough. None of the male immigrants would speak to me for fear of the one word these employers hold over their heads like an axe: Deportation. See now well that all works for the Big Bucks Boys?
They get to pay NO taxes on these workers AND they get to abuse them by telling them they have NO sick time, NO vacation time and NO time off even for the death in the immediate family.
These illegals are here to save the Big Bucks Boys from having to pay taxes and to fatten their bank accounts.
Event, you are on a roll here, thanks for making clear "the truth", and what I have suspected has been taking place in reality all along. The anti-immigrant thing is just a race baiting exercize to give Trump's rightwing cretins the red meat they so crave.
And as I said before, the Corporate class has been abusing immigration laws for years by providing illegals employment and exploiting their labor to save money at my expense. All this, while diverting people's attention away from that fact as it is easier to focus on brown people jumping over international boundaries.
Such is why I hold the political Right and their supporters in such contempt.
Now we know how you really feel credence.
Too bad because that is not who we are...
We don’t hate brown people or black people or purple...
We believe in the rule of law.
Your point about businss hiring low wage workers is absolutely true...
But we have eVerify and it is so easy to bypass. Anyone can go and buy fake documents.
So what is your solution my friend?
Just keeping the status quo?
Conservatives only conserve THEIR money while they spend ours like it's their personal piggy bank.
When they don't pay their fair share of corporate taxes, spend millions on lobbyists to keep them virtually tax free and then get to repatriate $47 trillion tax free offshore, I should think that you'd be more concerned that our 13 donor states will decide they've had enough of being the sole support of 37 moocher states who take more from the fed than they pay in.
When you complain about undocumented workers, ignore that Melania Knavs Trump worked illegally in the US for 7 years before SHE met Trump, became a citizen in less than 3 and then got her parents and sister chain migrated and citizenship in less than a year, you have big time explaining to do about your attitude toward immigrants.
My position is clear. Nothing to explain. I have written many articles on this topic all from personal experiences...
It is frustrating to me to deal with the same talking points spew out by the left.
The corporations are not the evil one.
Let me ask you this simple hypothetical question-
If all the corporation would close their doors tomorrow, how will you get along?
The answer is not very well. If you want to read a good book on this, there is Ayn Rand- Atlas Shrugged.
If all the corporations close their doors tomorrow...
No more food deliveries, for most truck lines are incorporated.
No more supermarkets, for they are incorporated as well.
No more electricity
No more trash pickup, and many sewer treatment plants close down.
No more hospitals, and not many doctors
No more health insurance
No more gasoline for travel, and no more bicycle tires, either.
Can't even buy a gun or fishing pole to obtain your own food. Nor seeds to plant.
But you could probably still hire one of Jake's $5 car washes...if you have water to wash with.
"We don’t hate brown people or black people or purple..."
Of course you do, these kinds of issues have been surfacing with Trump since his Inauguration Day.
You perception of "rule of law" is debatable.
I can't get away with one penny from IRS, or when was the last time any of the myriads of financial accounts we have been subject to error?
We do what we want to do, we got to the moon, because the will existed to do so. This is not an intractable problem in our technical world. I just believe it is a problem that the Rightwinger really does not want to solve, that is why we hear excuses and endless handwringing.
I want the system overhauled, to bankrupt in fines business entities that knowingly hire illegals. Let's get needed fixes to E-verify to close loopholes and make it more effective. As I told Wilderness once, that besides SSAN, the other basic information the government associates with that is place and date of birth. So challenge a potential employee to provide more than just a number as proof of his or her residency. So, your name is John Q Public and you want a job, I have your SSAN. So, where and when were you born? Can't or don't answer correctly, you are not hired.
I am hardly an expert, but all of this should not be this hard.
Credence, your narrative does not hold. If this country is as racist as you claim, how did we get here?
You know who is a racist country, try Japan, China, India, UK, Sweden, South Africa...and a host of other countries where their demographics are homogeneous.
We are the most diverse nation by choice. We accept all races and relligion to come here legally.
For you and others to make this debate about race is so disengenuous...
We all know when the left loose its argument, they always pull out the race card. That was why OJ got aquitted of mudering two human beings, but using the race card from the bottom of the deck.
Cmon, Jack, you are not fresh off the boat are you? You have been here for a while, no?
Put your engineering literature aside and read some American history and come away enlightened.
I would have thought that you having an ethnic identity would give better insight on things that I speak of to you today? Obviously, not.
The OJ situation for example, Simpson was acquitted by a jury of his peers. History is rife with examples of kangaroo courts driving black men into prison or to the gallows and you and the other rightwingers called that "being tough on crime". That's typical.
But you can bet your bottom dollar, that I NEVER FORGET what was done then as the explanation of what is now. Others choose to dismiss the significance of that, but I am here to remind you and those like you. Just because South Africa did not kill its oppressed black majority hardly qualified the society as not being racist. Can't let you throw the baby out with the bath water.
Sometimes, I start out writing about a specific topic and find I get diverted due to some shocking thing I've seen or heard.
I live in NJ. The Republican Governors Whitman and Christie both knew Trump was hiring illegals at his hotels, casinos and the golf course. They looked the other way.
The worst I saw as I was driving home from this assignment was those mini buses dumping these undocumented workers off on a main rain where there was NO bus or other type of transportation. The mini buses are owned by the warehouses. That makes them more complicit in exploiting these immigrants.
Better questions to ask. Why didn't that Maggot Man of yours tell the public how he was going to spend that $5 billion in an itemized account? You know why. Give him $5 billion this month and he ask for $20 million next month.
His Republicans last year gave him $2 billion for border protection last year. He has spent ONLY 6% of that. You better have the answers to what he did with the rest.
"13 tweets from travelers that reveal the real dangers of a government shutdown."
https://www.someecards.com/news/news/ov … -shutdown/
Here is an Obama official who explain why a wall works...
https://710wor.iheart.com/featured/mark … y-do-work/
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