What would a person have to say for you to consider the remark to be racist?
What would a person have to say or do for you to judge them to be a racist?
This question is particularly for those who don't think Trump has made racist remarks or is a racist. I am just curious about where you would draw the line.
Was George Wallace racist? Strom Thurmond? Paula Deen?
Anybody supporting Trump at this stage is supporting racism.
And by doing so, by approving racism to continue they can be called racists themselves.
Racism is sometimes in the open and sometimes it's hidden. Hidden racism is racism too. And a president of any country should even stay away from hidden racist remarks as a president should be there for all the people of the country.
That's why what president Trump tweets counts double.
Could you share a specific example of one tweet you found to be racist? Words matter. If toy are gong to make a blanket accusation is like to know what evidence you are using.
Trump: "So interesting to see “Progressive” Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all), now loudly and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how."
If you say to a coloured person: Go back to your country.
Then is this a racists tweet. As you make a difference between white people and black people. So what Trump is saying is : Go back to your country with coloured/black people.
It's incredibly difficult not to see this as a racist remark.
Would you say to a black person on the street "Go back to your country."?
We all "get" that you and other Trump defenders don't think his latest tweets about the four freshman congresswomen are racist,
My question is, what would a person have to say or do to be judged racist by those who don't consider Trump to be racist?
I tossed out a few names of people who are widely viewed as racist as examples. Are they racist in your view? When Paula Deen wanted to hire only black people as waiters and have them wear white gloves reminiscent of slaves in the old south, was that racist?
Wow. Never heard the Paula Dean thing. It all goes back to intent. As offensive as that idea is, would it be an historically accurate representation of whatever moment in history she was trying to create? Maybe so. Would it insult? Definitely. I would think those who likened the recreation of that time to nostalgic bygone days would be racist, to some extent. Maybe not. I'd need to understand how they could see such with nostalgia, considering the human suffering involved.
Intent. How that intent affects your world view. Does the statement as you interpret it manifest in real world racist actions by the person you call racist.
I call the vocal far liberal left racist. That is my interpretation of their actions and words. Is it fair? No more or less than the left calling far right politicians racist.
Actions, to me, speak more loudly than words. So, if a politician backs legislation that is clearly racist, or proposes policies which are clearly racist they would be racist.
So, to be clear, a person's words cannot be judged as racist unless this person has also engaged in racist actions? I want to be sure I understand you correctly.
I think it is difficult to claim racism from a single comment and I think it is counter productive to scream racism when other interpretations of comments are equally valid.
Trump has disavowed the chant that came from his tweet. If he disavowed the chant because it was racist, then so was the tweet that started it.
He meant that they can leave. Why be here if you don't like it.
A racist comment would be: We don't like people of color here and you should go back to your country of origin. No one I know would say such a thing. And that is N O T what Trump said.
No. He told a black American citizen to go back to Africa. How in the world is that not racist?
His racism is obvious to everyone except his lily white supporters.
He was addressing her anti-Americanism.
The accusation of racism is a lie to promote white hatred.
Horsepoop. Trump is the poster boy for white hatred.
No thank you.
Is anti-Americanism always associated with progressive/liberal ideas?
Why is it always the Rightwinger that get to sanctimoniously wrap themselves and their archaic ideas in the American flag? Truth, justice and the American Way?
That reminds me: DC-Comics is updating the Superman comic strip--they are releasing a title called: Superman Smashes the KKK. I bet I know who will not be reading.
And how is it when the leader of that party gets elected with the assistance of a hostile foreign nation, he's not considered anti-American by his supporters? Seems that they are not the most qualified to determine what is, or isn't, anti-American.
Then, he should have specified that they went back to the districts they serve because they are all American citizens. No such specification was presented. How dare our president put down our country that way? lol.
What about multiple comments over the course of many years?
I wonder if the tapes ever surface from The Apprentice where Trump is using the n-word over and over, if the Right would change its mind.
Answer: of course not.
I'd like to hear these tapes. Can you provide them? Unedited, of course.
Oh, it's just a rumor. Supposedly, Mark Burnett and Trump have some kind of agreement that Burnett will never release the audio from The Apprentice for any unaired segments. Those who have been on the show have indicated Trump uses the n-word frequently. Here's one such link:
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-n … ce-1445854
Those who still support and defend him after everything he has said and done have so completely suspended their values and standards that he can now say and do anything and they will contort themselves into a smelly pile of BS to defend him.
Wait and see. Raping a teenager won't matter. Mueller's testimony won't matter. In their minds, they have hired the meanest, ugliest, most disgusting and ruthless mercenary to fight their righteous fight for them. They will not care what he does or what he has done as long he fights for them.
I don't think so: You can say nigger pour me some milk in the coffee to an Afro American waiter. And just with this one remark it is clear that you are a racist.
To say to a black person "Go back to your country" is a racist remark.
And I think the president of a country should take care of what he is saying as he symbolizes the whole country and should be there for all citizens.
Especially as America has a history of slavery and apartheid. And the racism is still there.
President Trump could have attacked Cortez in a different way about the political points of view. But he didn't. He chose to emphasize black Americanism.
Lol. You realize those 4 freshmen congresswoman are not all black? That sounds pretty racist to me.Someone with skin a little darker than Nancy Pelosi must be black? What about Rashida Talib? Is she black or of middle eastern descent?
You guys arguing for the left slay me. People of color is not a one size fits all term synonymous with black. That's as insulting as insisting an immigrant from Guatemala is Mexican.
Don't negate the value of a person's ancestry.
Edit. But you are right with your example of a foul slur being used conversationally., with no emotional trigger.That would be difficult to categorize as anything but racist.
Your splitting hair Live to learn.
You accuse me of racism of pointing out what racism is!
President Trump is using racist language when he says: go back to your country. As all 4 congresswoman are coloured/not European white it is clear he is referring to ethnicity.
If your claim is he is referring to ethnicity then he would be xenophobic, not racist.
You would be racist since darker skin tones are being lumped into one category,
P.P. any statement which seeks to divide the populace and give the frightened a hold on power while keeping the oppressed down is acceptable if it accomplishes the goal. Such is plantation politics. Apparently, Roy Moore didn't teach the extreme right anything about how flawed this approach is.
Yes, Paula Deen was racist. That is obvious. Everyone of us has prejudices in one form or another whether it is racist, ethnic, ageist, classist, socioeconomic, birth order, etc. All of us have them.
"Everyone of us has prejudices in one form or another whether it is racist, ethnic, ageist, classist, socioeconomic, birth order, etc. All of us have them"
I certainly agree with that thought Grace, and I had a thought today that applies to this topic and your answer.
A Christian puts on their best clothes, (and best behavior), for church on Sunday. But come Monday it's back to reality; jeans and gossip and whatever other human failures we all have.
I think today's promoted standards are demanding that we wear our Sunday clothes and behavior every day of the week. That just isn't going to happen.
Accept what we are, strive to improve, and celebrate the baby steps should be our expectation.
President Barack Obama was the most divisive president in decades. The left seems to forget the things he said and did. Such as:
In a radio interview with Univision in Oct. 2010, Obama urged Latino voters to “punish [their] enemies” and “reward [their] friends who stand with [them].”
Not only was this a strident call to racial politics, but it reinforced the dangerous and divisive liberal sentiment that anyone who thinks differently than them are not just opponents, but actual enemies.
While on the campaign trail in 2008, Obama said about small-town mid-western voters as he disparaged their economic frustrations “They get bitter, cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”
Obama frequently invited leaders of the militant Black Lives Matter movement to the White House. Just after five Dallas police officers were murdered at a BLM demonstration in July 2016, White House spokesman Josh Earnest said, “I would not describe the White House as concerned about these protests. They’re exercising their freedom of speech, they’re exercising their freedom of assembly. That’s a good thing. That’s a good start.”
It all depends on PERSPECTIVE it seems. To some people, Obama was the most divisive racist President... just because YOU believe someone is something, doesn't make it right, and you certainly are wrong calling everyone who supports Trump a racist.
"I believe some people are inferior based on the color of their skin or features that distinguish them as being from a specific region."
That would do it.
So then, it stands to reason if you have evidence of a person treating people badly based on those qualities, that person would also be a racist.
George Wallace was quintessentially racist until he was attacked & then he changed his tune. Strom Thurmond was a lifelong racist. Paula Deen was a covert racist. She pretended that she loved Blacks until a certain incident. There are Caucasians & other non-Blacks who are covert racists. They pretend to be racial egalitarians until a trigger event strikes & their subconscious racism leaks out.
There is certainly more than a just morsel of truth in your comment.
what produces it?
They're conscious of it Kathryn, but they suppress it. When major stressors hit, stuff that we suppress, as well as subconscious issues, surface.
You know something, Professor, for being on the other side, you seem to have clear insight into these matters much more than I would expect from people on the right side of the ledger. We start by asking the right questions.
Kathryn you could hook on to this as well, if you are really serious about getting an answer.
Let's get honest
Why is it harbored in the first place, so that it has to suppressed like an overactive bladder?
I would of thought that it would be contrary and unnatural to have prejudged beliefs and attitudes about people at a subconscious level that can't be substantiated.
The tragedy as I have found in my travels into Central America and the Caribbean is that beautiful people of color are brainwashed into believing in their own inadequacy. Bleaching creams and Blanco this and Blanco that. Considering all the effects of the conquests in this hemisphere by Anglos in the last 5 centuries, this aspect has the nastiest of aftertastes That was going on here until about 50 years ago with the coming of the Black Pride as an offshoot of the Civil Rights movement.
I have to evaluate my own attitudes in regard to the question posed. Yes, we are raised with healthy paranoia, a balance between anticipating and insulating oneself from insult and pain with the other extreme being madness and counterproductive behavior.
Fortunately, I was able to move on from Ralph Ellison, Eldridge Cleaver and James Baldwin as today's reality is not as intense as it once was, or maybe in the retirement mode, I am less sensitive to it. I thought that things were moving in the correct path, until recently.
Black skin is exotic. It a choice the soul makes as it incarnates into the family it chooses.
its all a mind set.
- A positive or negative outlook is every person's choice to make.
The negative choice is easier to make, unfortunately.
Its a fall in consciousness.
Ok, but does that mean that having black skin should subject someone to unwarranted hatred and abuse?
History says that it is more than about "outlooks"
The bleaching cream obsession is prevalent in most of Asia as well. Although here it's not racially driven as much as it is class driven. If you are fair skinned, it shows that you are in a privileged position and spend your time indoors or in the shade. It seems that darker skin still evokes feelings of inferiority and connections to field work, manual labor, etc. out in the sun. Even in 2019, people will tell me that dark skin looks "dirty".
In talking with veterans of the Vietnam war, they say it was quite a shock to the social hierarchy when U.S. soldiers came in droves and took to the ladies with darker complexions. Suddenly, a lot of these ladies had financial means and access to things and places previously reserved for the higher classes.
I find these stories really interesting and feel that there is a moral in them. It's powerful to see how simple exposure to a different way of thinking can alter the course of society.
Eastward, I was certainly one gringo that was not going to abide with the customary racial hierarchy within Panamanian society. I lived there for 6 months. I had people as black as myself telling me that they were not black, but explaining themselves as having some sort of exotic lineage. But being an abrasive AA, I was not going to abide with certain practices, although I diligently tried to learn Spanish. That was lot more than Anglo expats were committed to.
That's the way to be, Credence. I certainly can't condone any racial hierarchy in Panama, Thailand, or otherwise. I'm not much of a fan of hierarchy in general. We're all in this together and much more alike than we are different (whether some people would like to believe it or not). My Thai is far from great but at least I have the basics in place. I see people that have been here for ages and can't order their lunch in Thai. Each to their own I guess, but I can't imagine quality of life is all it could be that way.
Well damn Eastward, you have my attention. I am always glad to be informed by non-America opinions. I hope you won't mind a couple of personal questions.
Are you an American in Bangkok? Do you have in-America experiences?
To the point of your comment about Asian preferences for fair skin . . . the question of whether that is a cultural thing, (your comment indicates it is), or whether it is a genealogical thing poses an interesting question.
I don't have a link to it, but here is a blurb I posted to MizBejabbers:
"I listened to a segment today about a study of babies--as in sub-one-year-olds. The study said that even babies under a year old displayed a preference for light-skinned others."
Happy to answer the questions, GA. I am an American in Bangkok and have many years of in-America experiences (can't say I've seen any instance of the whitening fad there though, which is a good thing IMO). I live and work in Bangkok now but still travel home when I have the chance.
I can confidently say the preference for fairer skin is a cultural thing. I'm not sure if genealogy plays into it as well, but that would be interesting to explore, as would that study about the preferences of babies.
I'll share a few links that I found interesting on the skin tone topic:
Harvard has created a series of implicit bias tests you can take online:
Virtual reality is showing some promise in reducing racial biases:
https://phys.org/news/2017-05-immersive … -bias.html
Thanks for the reply Eastward. Due to the forums updating kerfluffle I just saw your response.
I envy your international experiences.
"Why is it harbored in the first place, so that it has to suppressed like an overactive bladder?"
There's stuff in us that's been there since we were young, and we can't see how it got there (often). Stress brings up stuff in us that we either can't see (we've automatically repressed it) or that we don't want to see (we suppressed it).
Why is that "stuff" in you?
An irrational fear and loathing of another group of people because of their having a different skin color. For People of color, at least in this country, our reflexive reactions have been defensive, but for Anglos it has been overwhelmingly offensive, why? Is it part of the DNA, what is it?
We all have our biases and preferences, but relations between white and black in America had gone far beyond that.
History reveals an unmerited hatred and fear without reason. In this politically correct society, how much more are you going to be able to suppress before " letting it all hang out?" Is Trump tapping into that?
I am aware that this happens in other societies as well in variant degrees.
its been more than one source that has suggested that a lot of that "stuff" is responsible for the rise of Trump and his continued support.
"Why is that "stuff" in you?"
You're asking a question that we'd all like an answer to.
But I'll wager that the answer varies from person to person, though not entirely. If we could look intimately at the very young lives of all of these, we'd find a variety of situations/early indoctrination/ etc. that creates this kind of evil. The same can be said for other kinds of evil, as bigotry is not the be all of evil, only a part of it.
From a Christian standpoint, we develop what's called strongholds, where because of exposure to sin as infants and children we grow up to hold many beliefs, and we're often unaware of these beliefs which nonetheless drive our attitudes and behavior.
We believe that getting to these beliefs, their roots, and then dealing with them, can only be done by being reconciled to Christ and allowing Him to work in us.
ML King once said that Sunday morning was the most segregated period in America.
We all are fallen, but a whole society taking on these attitudes at birth, how could evil take hold of so many, so completely for so long?
We are not born with the drilling in of the idea that some people were born for abuse as universal and standard. My ethnic group "drilling in" of certain concepts have been defensive in nature to promote survival within a hostile environment.
This goes beyond any religious explanation.
I really don't think that any of you really know. So, from my position if you don't know the origin or the cause of racist attitudes particularely here in the states, which can be more insidious in a way not elsewhere, how can you know and appreciate what needs to be corrected?
"We all are fallen, but a whole society taking on these attitudes at birth, how could evil take hold of so many, so completely for so long?"
Our sin nature isn't picky about it's choice of evil. Look at Germany in the 30's....how did the German people become so in love with themselves and so cruel and uncaring towards the Jews and other peoples? When a multitude of people have the same kinds of issues, it's clear how that can become a society-wide stronghold for Satan. Same for bigotry in the States, same for misogyny in many Muslim countries. Each culture seems to have certain human evils magnified in them.
If you don't accept that our sin nature is the generator of ALL evil, and not just the evils of your choice, then yes, I've got nothing else to add.
Methinks Credence, that you're elevating the sin of bigotry above most other sins. The how and why of bigotry need to be dealt with in each individual, not in the collective. Christ is the savior of individuals.
Having it drilled into your head when you are a kid. Seeing your church hold up the story of the Good Samaritan as an example of living, yet they wouldn't integrate the church until after the 1960s Civil Rights Movement.
MizBejabbers, this is just to provoke a thought, nothing else.
I listened to a segment today about a study of babies--as in sub-one-year-olds. The study said that even babies under a year old displayed a preference for light-skinned others.
I am not offering a point, I just mentioned what I heard. Maybe it is is more than something "just drilled into your head."
That's really weird about the study of babies, GA. Did the report say whether the exposure was to strangers or did it include interracial couples and their babies? If it did, I'll bet the babies preferred their mamas every time, regardless of color. Babies are kind of like cats, they prefer whomever is the chuck wagon.
Sorry, MizBejabbers. I don't know any more than what I already related. It was something on NPR on the radio, so I was only half-listening.
And dogs, too. But that is an interesting study. I wonder about the sensibility of the eyes at that age, lighting of the room, how many babies from various backgrounds were considered. Truly, But most importantly: the study's sponsors.
So, MizB, why is IT drilled into your head? Who would want to endlessly perpetuate this attitude against people who never posed any real threat?
I don't understand what wall you are bouncing off, GA. What is IT?
I was referring to your "it" MizBejabbers.
"Having it drilled into your head when you are a kid . . ."
But, that doesn't mean I am not bouncing off of walls - maybe just not this time. ;-)
You are a little mixed up here, MizB
I wrote that comment, not GA.
From an earlier post of yours what is IT that had been drilled in your head since you were a kid and why.
PP, you asked "What would a person have to say for you to consider the remark to be racist?" I know you weren't aiming the remark at me personally, but I'd like to know how you would interpret this situation:
I was visiting with a black neighbor one day in their home and was talking to another guest of theirs (a black man in this instance). We were talking about rude drivers, when he told me about an incident on the street. He ended his tale with "Oh well, I just thought he was an old redneck, and considered the source."
How would you have interpreted that remark? If the situation had been reversed and I were telling the tale, I never would have used a black epithet to describe the offender. I interpreted it as unintentional racist, but in the South, most white people overlook such as that.
I like this story. You reminded me of something. My grandmother owned a store, and she had a regular customer, an elderly White lady. They were friends until they died. Apparently, one day, the White lady comes in and asks: "I wonder if you have any n**r toes?" In the south that's how Brazil nuts are still recognized by many older people. My grandmother responded: "Of course. Sit down. We will have some crackers and cheese with them." She started laughing. My grandmother explained the expression was not generally accepted anymore, and the older White lady apologized. Then, they sat around and did what grandmothers do: talk about their town and life in general. They shared that story with all of us. I think this is an example of unintentional racism.
I agree, Tim. My first father-in-law had a Five and Dime store many years ago, and he made a similar mistake, which he regretted. Back then some people also called chocolate drops by that term. A black lady who was a regular customer pointed to them in the glass case and asked for a pound. (The store sold candy in bulk) Before he thought, he said "one pound of "****** toes" coming up. The lady frowned at him and corrected it to "chocolate drops." He was embarrassed and felt very bad about his slip of the tongue. I'm glad to say that it didn't destroy their friendship because he really did respect her.
This important, isn't it? Many things happen because simple ignorance. Mst people aren't out to hurt others. Ga gave me a great compliment, and I'll return the favor. pretty astute, my friend. But I wonder where our president stood. He meant to draw attention to these women with a comment that was lightning, and he knew it.
I might interpret it as racist, though the only people I've ever heard use the term are white. iIve always thought it was a pejorative term for poor white people.
No, it originated as a term for white farmers because the sun blistered their necks and turned them red. Their wealth or lack of it didn't play into the picture. It later became pejorative for ignorant-acting white people regardless of wealth. But it still singles out white people in a racial manner. A black friend of mine agreed that one would never call an ignorant black person a redneck.
I identify a racist by their but.
"I'm not racist, BUT..."
That is cute Eastward. As a big fan of "buts . . . " in comments, I can appreciate your point.
But . . . I think all of us, of all colors, have innate racist predispositions. It's all about tribalism, which I think is an indisputable reality of being human. It is how we deal with that innate predisposition that separates us.
From one but fan to another, I think you are right, GA. All humans inherently classify people as in group our out group to some degree. It's something we can all be conscious of and try to manage as we advance, hopefully, as a species.
Even though the US has some major problems with racism to overcome, I have encountered enough situations in Asia that cause me to think that there is little awareness about racism and almost no effort put forth to combat it. I still see ridiculous job posts circulating for English teaching positions and such with lines like "NO BLACKS! NO ASIANS! DON'T WASTE OUR TIME!!! I've had to try to convince recruiters that people that were in the USA, speak only English, with Asian ethnicity are native speakers. They humored me but their eyes glazed over and you could tell they weren't convinced. Here in Thailand, race-based pricing is business as usual. Although, a few social media posts addressing this have gone viral lately. Perhaps we're making progress.
Your right, Eastward, we all still discriminate between what is beautiful verses what is ugly. We cannot deny human nature but how does that translate to discrimination and oppression from groups and from the very government institutions itself that are supposed to be there to protect? This is what many of us have seen in America, and its explanation has to go beyond baby formulas and high chairs.....
There is a differing between harboring feelings and ideas and acting upon fantasy as if it were reality.
Couldn't agree more, Credence. Sadly, I think people will always have biases and discriminate, at least for thousands of years to come. That's why we need to make sure our systems rise above the bias. We've got a lot of work to do in that department.
As a life long Democrat, I have found that anyone who disagrees with me is usually a racist.
It depends on the situation.
Context matters. And so does the complete action or statement.
A former friend once made the comment, that is it easy to take available information and change it around to appear as if it is something else all together...in the case I am speaking about, said former friend...took information that was from the time span of over a year and condensed certain items together to make it appear as if a conversation was had over a period of a few minutes...
Needless to say...that was the end of that friendship...instantly...
So making a determination on if someone is acting or speaking in a racist manner, depends on the situation...and is something that can vary from person to person.
If this is based off of his recent comments about the four freshmen reps from the far left I've got to ask. Since these four are causing quite the kerfuffle, they are all women of color, and all play the race card many times anyone pushes back on their ideas, is there an instance where you shouldn't ask this question?
Why aren't you calling this sexist? They are all women. Maybe the guy just doesn't think women should be out spoken. Why aren't you labeling it xenophobia? He misstated as if all were of foreign origin.
There is the crux of my problem. The meanings of words matter. If you are going to use the word racist, make it fit the action.
I think what the liberal ideology fails to understand is that most who consider themselves conservative do not define 'American' as a race. If someone believes in the slogan MAGA (which I never liked, by the way) it has nothing to do with race.
Telling someone if you don't like America there is no seat belt tying you to citizenship is not racist. If it is then, conversely, all the people who said if Trump got elected they were leaving should also be labeled racist.
Edit. I tend to think these weird white people from the far left running around calling conservative people of color racist and then using racial slurs against them, in an attempt to bully them into submission are racist. I think they are just white people scared of changing demographics trying to secure their spot in the new world order that scares the bejeebies out of them.
All interesting and thoughtful points. A few comments:
- The tweet is more racist than sexist because he told them to go back to their own countries. If he told them to stay in the kitchen or something similar, the debate would be about sexism.
- MAGA has more to do with ultranationalism than racism.
- You are right, if you don't like America you can leave. Telling a black American citizen to go back to Africa is adding racism to "love it or leave it".
- I'm a semi conservative who despises Trump for many reasons. I don't ever sense that my liberal friends and relatives think I'm a racist for my political beliefs and voting record.
- I agree that many white people are scared by changing demographics. Trump knows it and is taking advantage of it.
- Trumpism isn't the same as conservatism. The country has plenty of good conservatives. They are just lying low because they get punished by Trumpians otherwise.
I agree, interesting points and well-explained under the current circumstances.
The tweets were both xenophobic and sexist, but more xenophobic. I think there's no denying that. However, if you take into account Trump's history, racism can be applied. It's a pattern of behavior.
However, I can see a point-of-view where, if you are being very specific, it would be highly annoying and a "pattern of behavior" of the media to jump from xenophobia and sexism straight to racism as if the charge of racism were the only thing that was going to get anyone's attention.
That said, I think a charge of racism is very accurate based on the context and the historical meaning of telling people of color to "get out". To say the comments were xenophobic and sexist - I don't think anyone cares. To tell people Trump is xenophobic and sexist is like saying the sun rises in the east. It's not news.
Thanks for the feedback. I am curious about your saying calling him sexist or xenophobic is not news, since he does it all the time. Last I heard the left insists every comment he makes is racist so I'm confused as to how that would be news worthy, by the standards you mentioned.
If it bleeds, it leads. Always go with the most incendiary of the charges. I think everyone takes for granted he's a xenophobic sexist, but clearly not everyone thinks he's a racist, so I think the media still feels they have an obligation to convince the final holdouts.
Donald Trump is an arrogant, sometimes ignorant with his speech, ass. I don't think that constitutes racism.
I'm dumbfounded by those who can't connect the "go home" charge with its role in American history used to alienate those of color. It's a racist charge. It's racism. And if Trump can't be accused of being a racist, then his followers can. One of two things is going on. Either Trump is a racist who utters these things because he can't help it or he knows his base is racist and he utters them to rile them up.
There's one other possibility - and it's the one the Left has been reluctant to engage. It's that Trump will say anything to get media attention. It simply doesn't matter to him. It's not the content of what he says that matters. It's the result - media coverage. The more media coverage, the better. Content simply doesn't matter. Coverage matters. If you're in the news, you matter.
Think about that last attribute for a second because it's pretty amazing. That is the kind of society we live in today. Influencers. Trump is the king influencer.
"Trump will say anything to get media attention. "
We are not so naive, in this day and age, as to believe that any involved are not playing to the cameras. Of course he is playing the media to his advantage. As are they all.
Think about it. I read an article quoting a poll of 1000 Democrats which found that one third polled considered it racist to question a politician whip is a person of color on any policy stand. Think about that for a minute. We know that doesn't include a liberal commenting on a conservative person of color. We've seen to many racial slurs thrown at black conservatives.
Do you honestly not think those on the left play this (as much as does Trump) to their advantage? If not, can you justify such a position?
Some of us understand that the assumed high horse of moral indignation is more about gaining the upper hand than it is about adherence to value or principles. Peel back the top layer and you find the motivation. Or, just be like a willow branch and be controlled by the passing wind.
Or maybe he is just stating an opinion, founded on facts.
Omar is from a foreign country.
Omar has repeatedly berated America, and those who serve it.
Omar has made anti-Semitic remarks.
So if she is so offended by this Nation, and so offended by its relations with Israel, the President suggesting she should go back to the country she came from, and fix all their issues rather than creating new ones here with her anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism is not that bad.
I would like to offer one other opinion of the problems with your statement of 'If it bleeds, it leads'. It's like the Cavanaugh hearings. Many didn't like his assumed politics, so jumped in the rape bandwagon. It made for good fodder for the pundits, it was great click bait. But it couldn't stick enough to damage him in the long run because the impetus was easily seen.
If we aren't even going to attempt to be fair and unbiased (this does not apply to my estimation of your comments) then winning a majority of support will always be an uphill battle.
The meaning of words will not broker abuse just for the sake of expediency.
I wouldn't really use the Kavanaugh hearings as a gauge. Kavanaugh flat-out lied, which should have scuttled his nomination. He lied about his knowledge of the definitions of "Boofing" and "Devil's Triangle". His explanations were lies. Trump could have easily nominated another justice with the same credentials who wasn't a liar. And I have no idea whey you believe Kavanaugh over the woman who testified against him.
"I think they are just white people scared of changing demographics trying to secure their spot in the new world order."
Interesting, Kitty. Therefore, fear is an appropriate governing strategy in your view. By your definition, Richard Spencer is not at all racist. Those like him want to "secure their spot.." through fear and torment if necessary. That's a defining statement about who you are Kitty. That's the compelling thought behind these "plantation political" stunts of the extreme right. You favor plantation politics.
Appropriate governing strategy? Am
I to assume you suffer with reading comprehension problems?
I'm sorry you are offended, Kitty. Assume all you want. Plantation politics teaches you to go after intellect because you can't meet another there.
Next step-when you cant meet a person who has more knowledge than you on their level, you proceed to re-label. This same tactic can be seen when a network misrepresents one deceased Black female singer for another. Rebranding. It's a method of insulting because you can't answer the charge-Is Richard Spencer a racist in your view? Plantation politics are useless with me because I know from where you come, Kitty. And to show you that everyone has that power, Kitty--Is that Garfield?
You tried to label me with an unfair label caused by a skewed and biased look. If you label you will be labeled. If you don't like it, don't do it.
Nonsense, Kitty! I know more about reading comprehension than you possibly realize. You scratched first, Kitty. However, (and I feel silly writing this statement to a Cat), you are not a bad writer.
(Instead of getting into something with you, I took the high road, ltl. Step 1 in reducing racism: recognize some good traits in individuals who you don't understand. Next, communicate with them. Try to bring them up to your level, or meet them with compassion on theirs without arrogance. Finally, recognize a shared objective. Remind them we all must see the grave someday.)
There you have it, Kitty. Purr a little.
Kitty, be that as it may: Is Spencer a racist? Should I be sent from my country of birth? Are my children not Americans? Did my wife betray some secret pledge? Tell the truth, and name others you consider racist. Answer me, Kitty.
That has to be up there with the most ignorant and clueless comments I've run across.
Go away little bot, until your comments reflect that you took the time to read and understand what you are responding to
I told you, I will not step down to your level. Truly, ltl, you might have reading problems. Would you like some tutoring sessions? (Offering a hand of friendship for those in need.( but beyond that: Is Spencer a racist? (Please, apply phonics, ltl.) And try being civil.
For those with a sense of humor: That's from Jon Stewart's playbook.
Misrepresenting my name isn't going to get you anywhere, Kitty. re-label. rebrand. You can't hold a claw to me in the mind. Meow! lol. Follow your plantation politic rules to the letter. Good cat. By the way, is that Barack Obama? Two can play the game, feline.
LTL likes to think she's above anyone who contests her position, Tim. Her MO, especially if you ask her a question she doesn't want to answer. She'll question the person's intellect or reading comprehension. Been there, done that....
Because, what? Someone who offers no more than drive by insults deserves so much more?
If you throw an insult, just to throw one, which has no resemblance to any statement which could reasonably be made from the comment referenced...Don't expect a dignified response. You set the stage yourself.
Yes, that's the reason you don't care to answer questions posed to you, right? Not that you don't want to answer. You use the excuse too often for it to be coincidental. Try simply answering for a change...
I'm not going to answer rudeness. It's like you. You needle, do not engage, simply want to badger; at times.
There is nothing to be gained. Except, perhaps, feeding some odd fetish. I don't know that I owe anyone that.
Gee, Tim, you are scaring me as well, we don't want to come off as "militant", now do we?
LTL, RE: your last paragraph. Please make sense. I think both sides are being racist, unless you want to classify Ilhan Omar's anti-Semitic remarks as anti-Zionist. But she is Black, and while the Jews are of different shades (mostly Middle-Eastern), most all are lighter skinned than she is. (I said "most all" because Sammy Davis Jr. was an African-American who converted to the Jewish faith.)
However, I do not approve of her as a congresswoman speaking out against one of our allies any more than I approve of Senator Tom Cotton and his rantings. I believe she was being as divisive as her detractors have been accused of being. I believe she needs some lessons in tact and diplomacy if she wants to be an effective representative.
Excellent point. If we could all be fair and even handed, if we could use the same measuring stick to condone and condemn, life would be easier.
I think many times it's just an American reaction to stand up to bullies. Everyone bullies at different times and we all tend to jump to the defense when we see a bully and then we jump when a bully gets upset for being bullied. It goes round and round.
Trump's words were ill chosen. I think one problem I have is related to a comment I just responded to. A liberal labeling all of those women black. That's more racist, in my opinion. Trump judged by their far left politics and called them out as if they were foreign; someone defends by skin tone, negating 2 of the women's ancestry. Both prejudicial stands, but not necessarily both racist. And I see the negating the value of ancestry as racist, this feeding into the label of racist.
It's like, by my observation, drug users tend to publicly label others as drug users. To throw off anyone looking too closely at them. This is similar.
I have no doubt if the squad contained any other woman, of a more European ancestry with the same politics, Trump would have included them in his statement so I can't see it as racist. It is a comment deserving of censure, certainly. But I can't label it racist.
Agreed. That made superb sense; the sense we need to get back to in our nation. Thank you.
The accusation of racism is an excuse to attack the president.
Attacking this president is futile, however. He's the only one against socialism/ ridiculous politics of the left.
Socialism is Taboo in America, so get over it.
If you elect Warren she'll bring in socialism.
Thats what ya'll deserve.
Whatever. I don't care anymore.
But, be careful what you wish for.
I don't get the impression you understand what socialism is. Every Democrat President has been accused of being a Socialist. Neither have been. The last two Democrats have been mainstream capitalists and even pretty strong corporatists, yet both were accused of being socialists.
The main accusation against Obama being a Socialist was the Affordable Care Act, yet Obamacare is not much different than an extension of Medicare/Medicaid (I assume as an anti-Socialist, you want to abolish Medicare/Medicaid, right? Why aren't you screaming about that? Hmmm.). And while the program is administered by the government, it is run by private industry, making it not particularly socialist.
There are already a number of institutions in our country that could be called socialist, but I don't see conservatives calling for them to be abolished. Fact is, you've accepted the delicate socialist balance in this country and are merely using "socialism" as a dog whistle, much like "communist".
So you say. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.
These pithy responses don't really change anything. They simply confirm my conclusion. Seems to be an intellectual tug-of-war where I have all the rope.
That is OK, KH, I will take my chances....
Clearly, you do not understand the differences between socialism and having a government that works for a majority of the people instead of the few ultra rich. No Democrat is promoting socialism, that is your right-wing media sources tricking you with big words you do not understand. Now, if you want to keep lying about what some of the Democrats are proposing, we can continue to call you out for your idiocy.
Here's another one Kathryn: "By now, if you don't know Donald John is a CON-Man, you're the MARK": All this "Go back home" garbage is just another distraction from Bozo Trump's FAILING Campaign Ads: he's been spending MILLIONS and Millions on social media with abysmal results: What he doesn't seem to understand is that everyone already knows who he is, a sad pathetic 73 year old racist who is obviously crushed under Vladimir Putin's big bad red thumb, and all his communist russian loving republicans in congress seem to be CONTROLLED by the Kremlin as well:
What an INSANE era we are forced to endure, hopefully a short lived one but nevertheless INSANE and Mega-Destructive to the USA:
"How Do You Identify A Racist?"
Like this, Bona Fide RACIST: An Ugly RETARDED Dangerous one at that:
Yes, the remark was racist. To reiterate, all of us with very few, if any, exceptions have racial, ethnic, classist, ageist, socioeconomic, religious, political, or other types of prejudice. It is a very rare person who doesn't have any type of prejudice at all.
While we cannot avoid prejudice, civility is the difference between harboring prejudice and acting upon it by treating people adversely in the real world because stupid unfounded ideas.We have more control of this than people like to admit.
I can do it, so how hard is it really.
As students of history we both know the Civil Rights movement needed both King and Malcolm X. When diplomacy is needed, I'll apply it. When militancy is called for to defend my rights, particularly, the name my dad gave me, who served for this nation, then so be it, whether in words or otherwise. Unfortunately, good men have sat by and let evil seep into our governing apparatus and tear at our social fabric. I will not be one of those Americans.
Even today, I work with kids on simply being polite. The words "please," and "thank you" have almost become obsolete in some circumstances. Interestingly enough, by being kind, then one can begin to see the other side of things. Listening. Patience. Compromise.
But the fringe right has done much to damage our society, playing the "culture wars" as part of their strategy, straight out of Bannon's playbook. We write and read books, too.
"Even today, I work with kids on simply being polite. The words "please," and "thank you" have almost become obsolete in some circumstances. Interestingly enough, by being kind, then one can begin to see the other side of things. Listening. Patience. Compromise."
An impressive comment Tim. I respectfully tip my hat.
I am glad to see that I am not the only one that believes that the power of the message of simply being polite is a virtuous one that can promote great advances.
GA, I like you guys who have been on the forum for a long while. You have a certain amount of civility toward each other. I try to mimic that style. I remember someone wrote, a good and clever politician can tell you to go jump off a bridge in the kindest terms, and his/her charm and personality would make you glad to do so. Say what you want about some of our leaders: Old Ronald and Barack were that type of classy. I didn't like what they said all of the time, but I was proud to say that's my president. I will always say Donald is my president,because I respect the Office of President, but it's not quite the same. Something is missing in his dialogue with Americans. He speaks to his base when he has a country looking to him for leadership.
I suspect he likes "shock" politics; it gives him what he wants--the camera. Maybe that's why we see so many reversals in things he says versus things he does.
Racism is probably learned from individual bad experiences and then spread with a broad brush applying to all.
I had been thinking that Trump's actions could be more attributed to xenophobia. But between his refusal to accept that the Central Park 5 are innocent and his tweet about the four minority Democratic Congresswomen, he went full Klan in my eyes. I'm picturing Robert Downey Jr. talking to Ben Stiller and going, 'everyone knows you don't go full Klan.'
Is this racist or is it okay because it was said about white people?
IF she actually said that, it does show at least a tendency towards racism.
There is so much racism against white people, but because we're in the majority, people say it can't be racism. Pretty much every black person I've ever met is racist because they think white people automatically judge them by the color of their skin. And pretty much every Hispanic person I've met says something like "all white people think I came from Mexico". If you're going to lump all people of a certain skin color into a certain way of thinking and judge them accordingly, then you're a racist.
Black people feeling being judge by white is not racism. It is superior inferior feeling and you know where it comes from yep WHITE men. I say that because in our history white women were inferior as well. Understand the difference about racism and authoritarian.
I totally agree with that AOC meme. White attack minorities and it's racism automatically, but minorities attack whites and it's not racism. Talk about a double-standard!
If you look at history, you know who some of the biggest racists were? Slaves! They attacked whites when they were slaves and then when they were freed, they continued to criticize white people for not doing enough. Time travel to today and the relatives of slaves are trying to make white people pay reparations for stuff that happened before they were born. These attacks on white people need to stop and we all need to judge each other by the content of our minds.
Hmm...it seems to me, that it was pointed out that , although American citizens, the congresswomen in question claim roots of other countries. And what was said, was to "go back and fix those countries, and then come back to educate us on the process"...
It seems that a lot has been added to the words that were said...someone earlier (on page 1) posted the tweet...and if it is read without bias, then it is not hard to understand what was actually said...
There was nothing mentioned about race at all...There was mention of gender though...I am curious as to why that is the focus, as a major claim against Trump is that he belittles and is very sexist towards women...wouldn't that have more effect that the racist side? Women make up a good % of the population...much bigger voting target audience...
'Congresswomen claim roots of other countries..'
False claim. Puerto Rico is a US territory. Pressley's family is from the great country of Ohio. By including them, he was telling them that minorities don't belong in his United States. So clearly racism.
by SPomposello 7 years ago
My wife and I are an interracial couple, I'm italian and she's black/spanish mixed, and we live in NY. So I pretty much have no issues when it comes to different races and people. I work at a job that involves dealing with kids and teens who have behavior-related issues, most of these kids are of...
by kirstenblog 7 years ago
If the various race anti-discrimination laws were to go how much racism do you think would prevail in America? Is America's tolerance, acceptance and even embrace of diversity a superficial and shallow thing that must be legislated to maintain? Ron Paul is for getting rid of these laws and it is...
by ga anderson 4 years ago
In a conversation about racism in America today, a young relative, made this statement'"It is worse than it was six years ago!"It took me a moment to catch his drift. He is a young, (many times naive), anti-Obama conservative and I took his comment to mean it is worse since Pres....
by VC L Veasey 5 years ago
Why Do So Many White People Believe All Racism Is In The Past?
by ahorseback 5 years ago
First , I do ask this honestly ! ....... Will we as Americans , black , yellow , white or blue , ever be able to look at truths , real statistics , and hard facts , and ever be able to honestly discuss the reasons for racial and ethnic divisions ...
by TMMason 9 years ago
So I came across this the other day. Appearently Racism is genetic, along with alchoholism gays etc... and white people are the only ones to have ever had slaves. Okay... This man is just absurd and a great example of the education of Americans in this day.http://www.theblaze.com/stories/new-aud...
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