Tribalism to Universalism
What are the steps that humankind can take to evolve from tribalism to universalism? How does the family encourage tribalism & discourage universalism? Will the concept of family evolve from mere blood tribalism to a greater universalism? Will humankind go towards a true universalism in which people will befriend & care for each other?GDPR Deleted
LOL I trust you are making arrangements to ship anything you have and I don't to me? As a humanist, of course.
GDPR Deleted
Good luck with that. I hope you don't suffer from the same angst that has plagued me.
GAGDPR Deleted
Tess, Ga and Wild are not the two to hashtag all those billionaire's destructive results to.
They are more the Maintenance Worker or fit-it guys within a bubble that is going to burst. Or in a broken system that can't be fixed by American politics or Military.
I am always open to anyone because even guys like wilderness who has many disagreeable challenges can come across an important flaw or fault within my inventional ideas, or my pioneering new ways of thinking which I have done my entire life.
GA, we agree upon one thing. We both don't regret the World's Greatest genocide, of the American Natives. I also don't regret any pass guns murderers or salvery on which they may call self defense or productive.
Don't even regret any wars murderers, the rest of the world is already on to them.
I can only regret all these non-creative and destructions methods, if I don't discourage them in the future.
The world will change itself, and the world is my family. It's just not understandable for those two, if they refuse to see from the other side. Or don't try on the larger world majority families shoes that surrounds them outside their tall boarders.GDPR Deleted
"Basically a bluecollar worker who has done well for himself, and has no idea whatsover how things operate above his head."
Basically an object of derision...as I and others like me make possible not only your lifestyle but your very life itself. A very typical reaction from ego ridden people incapable of doing for themselves what must be done to survive, from growing food to providing shelter or clothing.
I have seen this many times in my career...and laughed every time as my knowledge of solutions to their problems was far superior not only to theirs but to the project management and even engineering staff that were being tasked to find those solutions. It can be truly comical to see what ego does to people that put themselves on a pedestal far above those that actually build and accomplish something with their efforts.
And it surely explains the disdain for work ethic; the high and mighty don't even know what work is, let alone appreciate it's necessity in this world. They live in a world of philosophical imagination, a made up utopia, where the world of reality is allowed in only when they require that worthless bluecollar worker to provide what they are incapable of providing themselves.Wilderness, I think there is truth in what both you and Tess are saying. Once again though, to me, it all comes down to individuals as opposed to "bluecollar worker" or "the high and mighty."
I've seen ego, from people of all backgrounds, result in a Dunning Kruger type effect. I've seen a Biologist ,who knows nothing about mechanics, tell a guy who I call auto-Macgyver, how to fix his VW beetle. It seems the Biologist recently changed his own oil or something and thought it made him an expert. I also hear local hunters, who know absolutely nothing about wildlife management, tell DNR guys how to do their jobs.
It's best to be neither..and understand we can all learn from one another. Of course, every field, or trade, has some who simply don't know what they are doing as much as they should. This doesn't make all Chemists, or all carpenters, a bunch of numb skulls.No argument there! Most of us are ignorant in most things, while some are educated in some things and very nearly everyone is educated in something. Whether that education comes from book learning or from experience is irrelevant.
Yeah. There's no good reason for biases about certain groups of people, based upon their type of education, to fragment people. Americans have enough wedges being driven between us. We would all be a little less ignorant, as a people, if more people could recognize this IMO.
No one person is going to heal our divisions overnight. And, divisions, to some extent, aren't all bad. But, moving forward as a nation, America needs a uniter as President...now more than ever.In a way, divisions in knowledge are a good thing, for we would not have specialists and as a species be a lot more ignorant without that specialization. If we all knew how to farm for subsistence we wouldn't have walked on the moon.
But I have to add that a lot of what I see being taught is worthless in the real world. When someone spends 4 years getting an "education" to further their life and then can't find a job it says something. Interest is one thing, but practicality counts for quite a bit!Divisions in knowledge are great. Not understanding the value of a well-rounded education is not. A conservative business writer recently wrote a great piece in our local paper about how we need to get off this..educate only for a job type of mentality for several reasons.
"Above all things I hope the education of the common people will be attended to, convinced that on their good sense we may rely with the most security for the preservation of a due degree of liberty." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1
Educating the common people ONLY to be electricians and plumbers isn't going to help preserve our liberties. We will be enslaved and left behind without a well educated middle class. The "real world" is complicated stuff..where we need a State Department and all that nonsense they teach at four-year institutions.This, too, is quite true. A country of only people educated in the hands on of construction will not do, for we need philosophers as well.
But at the same time, philosophers that have no handle on how things work, what is physically possible and what we can actually do...well, we end up with the Green plan to immediately remove all energy sources from the planet, leaving billions to starve. When the philosophers proclaim that utopia is possible if we only do this or will only do that...when the "this" and "that" is contrary to what makes people up we don't get very far.
So we need it all. The philosophers to suggest a path and the peons of the nation to either construct that path or decide it cannot be done.Here you are just arguing a particular opinion, on how things can, and should be done. One thing I know about this, from being part of a university environmental science department, is that social scientists do often get with the engineers and field experts to help understand what is feasible. If politicians are not consulting with people in the know, then that's on them. It seems some politicians, simply state, "I know best, and you should listen to me." They hire unqualified yes men around them so they can carry out this damaging philosophy.
It was not meant that way, although I can understand how you come to that conclusion. I see people with grandiose plans, plans that will make a utopia out of earth...if only people weren't people at all but some alien race with different attitudes, wants and needs. It isn't so much about the path to get there; it's about the end result not matching reality. It's about the Green Deal, with energy usage cut to a tiny fraction of what we use...and need for survival.
I've been on both sides of this fence; the "educated" college graduate and the blue collar worker with decades of experience and knowledge. And I've seen both sides express disgust at the other: the construction worker that has exactly zero use for the "suit" that thinks it knows everything and the "educated" academician that looks with total disdain at the worker in the factory or field...while being totally and completely dependent on the knowledge buried within that worker for everything the academician needs to live and function.
I find it comical, and sad, to see people so dependent on others, others that they disdain to even speak to, but that contain within them the necessities we all require to survive. The man that doesn't know how to change a tire when it's flat 50 miles from the nearest town and may well die if he can't find shelter. The woman that reported a propane smell in an RV...and put her two small children to sleep in the bedroom before stepping outside to call for help. And it goes both ways; the plumber that cuts a main support beam of a building because it's in his way and he has no concept of the engineering work that designed that beam.
Specialization is fine and good, but when it proceeds to the point that even simple actions are beyond most people it has progressed too far." It isn't so much about the path to get there; it's about the end result not matching reality."
When you put it like this, I don't have a disagreement. The laid plans going astray saying comes to mind. You make a good point about the Green Deal. Programs just never work exactly as planned, and this is magnified when they are so broad...such as the Green Deal. I think one reason is that humans are a hard-headed species that is not as predictable as some like to think, especially when it comes to groups, which so often behave irrationally.
I too have been on both sides of that fence, to an extreme really. You summed up that sad, and comical, situation very well. There really is a lack of respect coming from both directions. I've found myself defending both groups in conversations with professors and factory workers. I try to be as well-rounded as I can these days. I grew tired of always relying on my uneducated brother to fix my cars, so I now get a Chilton manual for every car and just go to work...with some good advice. But, I'm always going to need an electrician, plumber, or mechanic now and then..Just chiming in to say that I think the lack of respect is being way overstated by wilderness. The few arrogant snots do not represent the views of most people. I will also add that some people seem to be looking to be offended, sometimes taking factual information presented for discussion as a personal affront rather than information to be evaluated and processed. This works both ways.
The degree of this is definitely hard to measure. I can think of a couple professors who fit right in on the educated side of this lack of respect. But, yeah, most of the educated people I know do understand the value of skilled labor and respect the individuals who perform it, as long as they get that respect in return.
And yet, in a small way, your statement says the same thing by insinuating that skilled labor is not "educated". We say it by insisting our children to go college, even though skilled labor earns as much or more than many college degrees. We see it in statements like "Education includes speaking several languages, extensive travel internationally (living and working in other countries), university level knowledge in several fields with science as one of the most important, etc)." (https://hubpages.com/politics/forum/345 … ost4104564). We see it in jokes about "rednecks" and "hillbillies" (which I have been known to repeat
). It is at least as prevalent as the quiet, unintended and hidden racism and discrimination we hear so much about. Humanity will always have a propensity to degrade others while putting themselves on a pedestal; the need to be superior and stroke our own egos is almost overwhelming in the species.Really my use of "educated" here was more just out of a way to label the groups for simplicity and expediency. If I were taking more time, or were less lazy about my response, I would have defined the skilled labor differently, as I almost did.
I'm a well-educated redneck... I often refer to myself this way; so I don't think my motivation, in this case, has anything to do with feeling superior. Not that I'm above stroking my own ego now and then.
I can say that being educated in academia is a different experience than being trained in a skill. And, that, as far as comparing the forms of education, by definition the academic gets a more well-rounded education. Of course, this doesn't say include education we may get from other sources (family, jobs, the street, prisons, etc.)I know that (word "educated"). But it remains that the word does not typically refer to the education of the laborer.
I, too, am a redneck and so proclaim now and then. Again, this does not change that the jokes are often an indication of the feelings of the speaker.
Yes, it is different, and yes it is often more well-rounded...until the remainder of the laborers education, conducted in the real world, takes place. At that point the laborer quite often has a wider "education" than what is received in a university. For instance, I studied chemistry, physics and math, along with a smattering of a dozen more subjects in college (biology, anthropology, various sports, English, etc.). But when it came time for the education of a skilled trade, 20 years later, that education included electrical theory, legal requirements of electrical systems in my state, business practices, how to purchase intelligently, 3D thinking, time and money efficiencies, safety and OSHA regulations, the psychology of being both a teacher and a boss, dealing with obnoxious customers, operation of a backhoe and various man-lifts, simple surveying, blueprint reading, and many more. All part of the "education" to be an electrician and all in addition to actually wiring buildings.
GDPR Deleted
No, I was not referring to you as an arrogant snot, Tess. This is not the first time wilderness has negatively stereotyped well educated people as helpless fools who would die without the help of the noble tradesman, and he is not the only one here who does it.
I have been taken to task for using the term"uneducated " just like hard sun was in this thread. A more accurate term might be "non-college-educated," but my point is that wilderness both seems to see this term as an insult even if it is simply a descriptor of education level. That is an example of him and others taking personal affront to a term even though it was not meant that way.
I have a son with Asperger's and I know that life does not go easy on you and I commend you for your many accomplishments.GDPR Deleted
+1000000000000000000. Tess, there are some people who are envious of those who have more education which is sad. I also applaud you. You are a highly intelligent as well as educated person.
Education gives people perspectives on life. It broadens their horizons. Education makes people more analytical & more humane. For example, educated parents are more likely to use constructive correction as opposed to less educated parents who resort to harsher forms of correction. It is good, even great to be educated.
GDPR Deleted
So someone, is not a "growing person" if they choose not to read research that you suggest they read? Of course, this could have nothing to do with our conversation, but I'll pretend it does either way.
I, for one, have plenty of learning to do, and a finite amount of time. For one, I have to learn how to go change a voltage regulator in my truck as I think it may have blew out the new alternator I just put in. I must do this so I can get wood and survive through the winter. I can do all this, and graduate as student of the year two years straight from a physical science department. Am I liberal..am I conservative..is my amygdala over-functioning?
In fairness, Wilderness had acknowledged that skilled laborers would be lost without the ones who are more traditionally educated in universities:
"I've been on both sides of this fence; the "educated" college graduate and the blue collar worker with decades of experience and knowledge. And I've seen both sides express disgust at the other: the construction worker that has exactly zero use for the "suit" that thinks it knows everything and the "educated" academician that looks with total disdain at the worker in the factory or field...while being totally and completely dependent on the knowledge buried within that worker for everything the academician needs to live and function."
However, I won't argue that Wilderness has a need to paint the skilled laborers in a better light compared to their counterparts, even if most of everything we use on a daily basis began with theorists, and people educated in universities.
I would prefer that everyone simply understand that all of these people are needed and leave it at that.Most of what we use on a daily basis began with people educated in universities. As in:
The Wright Bros, who gave us flight, from single seater airplanes to the space shuttle, but never had a formal education.
Henry Ford, who never learned to spell and could write only the simplest sentences, but gave us the assembly line used in nearly every manufacturing facility in the world today?
Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot, who made the first self propelled carriage (automobile) and has no record of higher education?
Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak who dropped out of college soon after beginning, but gave us Apple and all that it has produced?
Thomas Edison, who is responsible for the electrification of the world more than any else with his light bulb. He also gave us the phonograph and many other useful inventions, but attended school for only a few months and was taught the 3 R's by his mother?
But, notwithstanding Jobs and Wozniak, those days are ending, I think, for you are correct that the majority of discoveries/inventions today require a far deeper understanding of nature than was possible in the past. Instead of someone tinkering in their garage we find massive laboratories with dozens of researchers working to find solutions. I wonder, though if that deeper understanding is not also producing the end of that "well rounded" education, for the physicist attempting to unravel the universe simply does not have time to look into geology, political science, psychology or anything else.
We're also seeing a change in that discoveries require huge amounts of funding - capital - to come about, and that generally means a higher education. Can you see a couple of bike shop owners with no education applying to Uncle Sam for a billion dollar grant to see if they could fly like a bird today?Come on now. I can just as easily come up with a quick, and more relevant to today, list: -- note that these educated inventors go back to the 1830s... Not all physicists are astrophysicists by the way.
Nick Holyonak Jr: invented the laser diode that used in CDs, DVDs and cell phones; In 1962 he invented the first visible Light emitting diode and thus all the products that come with it, including LED TVs--Holonyak earned his bachelor's (1950), master's (1951), and doctoral (1954) degrees in electrical engineering from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Col. John Stevens, III (June 26, 1749 – March 6, 1838) was an American lawyer, engineer, and inventor who constructed the first U.S. steam locomotive, first steam-powered ferry, He graduated King's College (which became Columbia University) in May 1768.
Grace Hopper: One of the first programmers of the Harvard Mark I computer, she was a pioneer of computer programming who invented one of the first linkers. She earned a Ph.D. in mathematics from Yale University and was a professor of mathematics at Vassar College.
I could go on, and on, and on. Why can't we leave it at, people should respect the skills and knowledge of others no matter how they came about that education? I thought that's what we agreed upon. Why then this need to disparage universities and formal education?
Edit: And even the physicists must generally take at least a couple semesters of English, history, psychology, etc. in order to get that degree. That's all part of the well-rounded education that helps keep people free from oppression as Jefferson spoke of.Of course you can find people with formal education that have contributed hugely to our success. That was kind of the point - that we have benefited greatly from both.
"Why then this need to disparage universities and formal education?"
?? I haven't disparaged either universities OR formal education (although I could, given what I see happening at some of the more liberal campuses). On the contrary, I fully agree with you that both "styles" of education are necessary - that we couldn't do without either of them.
At worst I have disparaged those people - from both sides of the fence - that find the other side useless. I thought I had made that clear. I have been the "suit" on the job, looked down on by the person doing the work as not understanding anything outside a laboratory, and I have been the worker, looked down on by the educated elite that doesn't think a mere laborer knows anything or is more than minimally intelligent.
GDPR Deleted
Agreed. Education creates a broadening of perspectives if used correctly. The average educated person is universal in scope & outlook. Yes, liberals, progressives, & other evolved people lean towards education. They realize that education makes them better people. Conservatives tend to be suspicious of areas outside their particular paradigm. They prefer a more narrow perspective on life & philosophical outlook. This explains why Conservatives tend to be more religious, have more children, adhere to more outmoded philosophies, etc.
I was never stating I thought you were wrong..only that concepts like Dunning Kruger can apply in all directions between those with well-rounded educations and those skilled workers who don't have so much of that education. I also feel like the flames of division, along these lines, are fanned way too much nowadays and both the left and right are guilty on this front.
I should add that some of this is simply an individual's ability, and willingness, to see past their own situations...no matter their level of education. I remember seeing this when I was in high school.GDPR Deleted
"Dunning Kruger states that those who are highly intelligent and highly skilled have less confidence in their conclusions than those who are less intelligent and less skilled."
I think most people tend to think of this definition of Dunning Kruger when they reference it:
"In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is."
I've personally witnessed this happening, as I described before.
"Most people cannot see past their own situations, and that has a lot to do with their brain chemistry - nature, not nurture."
Doesn't this, at least to an extent, contradict your statement on education:
"There is a difference between an education and a qualification. And liberals, in general, are better educated than conservatives. One cannot hold the kind of opinions that Wildnerness and some others have and be educated"
Now, let's go back to the characteristic of Dunning Kruger that you brought up:
"...those who are highly intelligent and highly skilled have less confidence in their conclusions than those who are less intelligent and less skilled."
It seems to me that you are one of the most confident participants in this discussion, even going so far as to put your wisdom in the same category as Obi-Wan Kenobi. This confidence is also reflected in the wording of statements such as, "I always make sense." Really...always, to everyone?
Then we have..it's "hard science." As someone with a physical science background, I could argue that there's no way any of this is "hard science." How does each and every study even define liberal vs conservative? You see, my minor in psychology is enough for me to know that making inferences about brain structure based on political leaning is messy business. And, I'd be willing to bet that it doesn't even take a Psych minor to understand this.
Ultimately, I see such arguments as damaging to the cause of fostering cooperation and progressive ideals.GDPR Deleted
No, without a "hard" definition of liberals vs conservative...I still don't see hard science. The rest of what you write, either misses my point, or is not of that much interest to me, as highlighting, and exaggerating differences is just not something I like to partake in, as I stated before. We sure as are not going to work anything out by labeling a group of people, which is not even easy to define, as smarter and less fearful than others. This seems more like a task taken up by someone attempting to divide rather than unit. Your arrogance gets in the way to the point where it affects your ability to understand and communicate.
I wish you all the best.GDPR Deleted
I'm glad you don't need my approval, and the research is just not something I think is productive, even if it is valid. Everyone is a good guy? lol. We are talking about labor and education. I've been extensively involved in both, and no most people are selfish not "good" whatever that means.
I am not so busy this morning, so here is a response for you.;-)
GA
Very interesting.
And as America diminishes on the global scene, who steps in to fill the vacuum?
Seems like China is doing everything possible to be that nation.
We will never get to Humanism, not in our lifetimes, just because some 'enlightened' westerners believe in achieving this, or achieving globalism, does not mean nations like China or Russia believe in it.
When America no longer controls the global dialogue, someone else will, most likely China, which will only have China's best interests in mind, and the rest of the world will be subservient to it.
Tribalism will continue.Always my faith is in the the power of the people and small grass roots people. As it always has brought the best positive change to the people throughout human history.
Chinese saying.
The snake in the grass can defeat the firey dragon in the sky.
You're the one make a huge deal out of everyone having whatever their neighbor does, not me! I was poking fun at the idea, the concept that seems so central to your philosophy...until it means that YOU must give up your possessions rather than taking from someone else.
You don't like it and promptly descend once more into insults. Applause.I once lived in somewhere near your area. I had just one case of gun threat at home wail in Canada. It was between the RCMP police and a shot gun marijuana grower. RCMP threaten me to give me a Federal criminal code record if I didn't help them bust a grow opp. They didn't realize I grew hemp for my structure house. The shotgun marijuana threatened me leave town or be killed because over my hemp. I left my home because a police guns plus prison, and a shot gun on my other side.
Just accepting me growing hemp in a safe green house was one solution. A few bad cops with guns was not worth my life and far secondary my things. Weed legal now, I could of kept my lifestyle and home.
Guns are extremely uncivilized way to protect anything and too scary to have a decent discussion over .
I agree that basic needs are the right of all living. However, what are basic needs? People disagree. I think if you asked an indigenous native in the Amazon what a basic need is it would be vastly different from your answer.
You also comment that you are entitled to no more than another. Exactly. You should be guaranteed the same opportunity. I just find your comments to be surface feel good thoughts. Which don't really mean a lot. Too many variables have to be agreed upon. I'm not entitled to a yacht, For instance. Someone poorer than I am isn't entitled to a 2500 SF house. Someone poorer than the next person isn't entitled to a new model phone every year. Without competition, that's where your thought process lands. Whatever you have, whatever you have chosen to spend the money you've earned on, you are not entitled to unless others are guaranteed possession of the same.
I get your point but humanity will never resemble a giant ant farm where everyone cheerfully plays their part to ensure the common good.The selfish human did learn from ants on how to collect taxes and fight wars.
How often do you interact with animals in your daily life? Not just your dogs or cats, but a myriad of wildlife? Chances are, not very often. As a society, human's have separated ourselves from the animal world, building houses and fences to keep wildlife away. We’ve developed a culture that predominantly views humans as “superior” to animals and we associate their wild qualities and instincts with being “uncivilized.” humans are by far the most uncivilized with acts like letting up to 200 species go extinct everyday.
More lessons than we can imagine we could be learning from all lifeforms. Especially considering how far we’ve separated ourselves from them
Humans can more compassion and patience. How to Live in the now and how we’re all Connected. Ecosystems only thrive when there is balance we mainly collasps them. Humans aren’t as different as we thought. Animals respect their elders and take Responsibility. They listen carefully and many animal’s hearing abilities far surpass that of humans. Human only diverse eye and brain is supreme, if we use it decently. While we might have evolved away from using our hearing to survive on the day to day, we tend to overlook the importance of this ability. Animals sit and listen before they react to situations, something we could surely all stand to do.
We must live lightly and must stick TogetherGDPR Deleted
I expect commentsto make sense. That's all.
GDPR Deleted
LOL. You do realize using a position of ignorance to insult, in order to attempt to bolster the validity of your opinion, drastically undermines the validity of your opinion?
I realize you feel pretty good about what you think but my point was simply that it means absolutely nothing in a real conversation. It's a feel good statement which would do absolutely nothing to alleviate real world problems. Primarily because it defines nothing, while claiming everything.
I think, instead of attempting to bully those who disagree, a better use of your time would be a mental exercise where you attempt to follow your own logic, taking into account how those with vastly different opinions define things they might feel 'entitled' to.
I live in the real world. Even in a small community it is difficult to agree on what expectations of entitlement are reasonable, and what the collective can reasonably afford in an attempt to accommodate. It becomes harder at the state level and apparently virtually impossible at a national level.
Any attempt to view entitlement from an international level creates war. Any attempt to enforce our ideals,on the world stage, of what the individual is entitled to props up and enriches despots and tyrants. It creates massive social burdens on societies already deeply in debt by attempting to ensure basic entitlements for the citizens of those societies when those in power, or the social structure of that society, view things differently.
Bully for you for a compassionate outlook. Live it. Breath it. Be that person. Share everything you can to ensure your actions reflect the values you espouse. I doubt you will. Because most of us who believe in basic entitlements only mouth the words. We don't put our money or our personal resources where our mouths are.
Your views serve little purpose outside the confines of your mind without more clarity and a reasonable definition of the parameters. Parameters that are actually workable on a larger stage, parameters you should show have been implemented successfully on your personal stage.GDPR Deleted
I think you've made clear that conversing with you is just giving you the opportunity to believe you've successfully fed your own ego.
Cheers.
It is truly odd how your "stupid remarks" make so much sense...
What do you mean by universalism. I googled it and it looks to me a theological term.
As you take tribalism vs universalism it's like saying, group behaviour vs Christianity... It does not make sense.
Could you rephrase the question.
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