Is it time for for moderate Democrats to consider Bernie Sanders?

1. 79

   Eastwardposted 4 years ago

   I came across this article, written by an author who initially was not a Bernie Sanders supporter.
   
   "If moderate Democrats are serious when they say their only concern is beating President Donald Trump, they should get used to the thought of backing Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont.
   
   If you believe in saving democracy, the courts and the planet, and reversing the unrepentant cruelty, corruption and carelessness that define the current administration, you have a duty to at least consider the candidacy of the most popular senator in America, the top fundraiser in the Democratic primaries, and the man who has generally beaten Trump in head-to-head polls for five years now."
   
   https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ … tmIA6KKhmg
   
   What are your (especially those of you who consider yourself moderates) thoughts?
   
   P.S. As I post this, Bernie Sanders is speaking to 17,000+ at his rally in Washington.

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      Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Great article, Eastward. I have never stopped feeling "the Bern".
      
      I would prefer a reformer like Warren over a revolutionary like Bernie. But either one of them is preferable to the status quo, or moving backward with Trump and the Republicans.

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         Eastwardposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         I appreciate your input, Credence. It seems you, like the author, would prefer Warren's strategy over Bernie's but aren't afraid to back him as the front-runner. I prefer Bernie's strategy myself mostly because I think with the Senate makeup being what it is, compromise will have to happen as is (so best come out full force initially). If Bernie looks as good coming out of Nevada as he does going in (with no Iowa-esque funny business), I hope that finally is the turning point where even more reluctant moderates start to say, "Hey, this is the guy that can beat Trump".
         
         I totally agree that either Bernie or Warren would be preferable to the Democratic status quo or the Republican back-step (would like to see them mend their current rift as well as they'd be even more powerful working together).

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            wildernessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Do you see any indication, yet, that the party has chosen one of the two and will allow them to "win" and proceed to the general election?

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               Eastwardposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               I think the party is still pretty busy seeing if they can let Bloomberg buy his way into the "winning" position. They aren't going to give the nomination to a progressive easily.

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               PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               Your concern for a fair Democratic primary is touching. Are you equally concerned about fairness in the Republican primary? After all, the GOP cancelled their primaries after a couple of challengers emerged,to avoid any challenge at all to Trump.

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                  promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Let's add a fair general election to your point. Does any Democrat have a hope in winning despite massive Russian interference?
                  
                  Maybe Congress should pass some election interference laws. Oh, wait, Trump and McConnell refused to do so.

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                     PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                     I share your concern on this, for sire.

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                     Ken Burgessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                     I would say any of them not wearing Tinfoil hats, and not living in CNN's alternate reality, should feel quite confident that the election will be as fair as any and all others we have had in our lifetimes.

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      promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      The nomination of Bernie almost guarantees a victory for Trump. Bernie won't win enough independents in the election because he is too far left.
      
      Now that liberals have squashed Biden, the only hope for Democrats to beat Trump is with Bloomberg.
      
      But the liberals will fight him too. Many of them won't even vote in the election like they did with Clinton.

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         Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

         Promisem, the problem with Biden and Bloomberg is that they are uninspiring and will turn off the large activist segment of the party that want substantive change. That will create the stay at home scenario that we saw in 2016 with Hillary Clinton, which I believe is the reason that she lost. You can't be both a corporate democrat and still appeal to the populist left simultaneously. We saw what happened when the populists were ignored in the last election cycle.
         
         I had seen that first hand and in a world where someone like Trump can be elected President, I would not count Bernie out.

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            promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Credence, I agree they are uninspiring. That said, liberals have a choice. They either support their favorite candidate who can't beat Trump or a less appealing candidate who can beat him.
            
            When election day comes, I hope they support the candidate who can win.
            
            Otherwise, they only have themselves to blame if Trump wins re-election.

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               Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

               Promisem, what makes you believe that either Biden or Bloomberg has a better chance against Trump than the more progressive candidates?Unless there is offered a stark alternative to Trump, I don't think that the Democrats can win.
               
               Just what I need, another billionaire and his mindset running things again? How is Bloomberg really going to take seriously the issues that are driving Democrats at the base level? He still does not get the fact that support and loyalty are not for sale.
               
               We have to agree to disagree on the future of the Democrats prospects, I don't want another 2016, but I am concerned about another 1972 as well.

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                  promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  I suggest tracking the electability polls.
                  
                  https://www.huffpost.com/entry/electabi … 8874b17936

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                     Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                     Thanks for the link, there are still a large number of people that prefer to vote for their favorite, over a non-favorite because they believe that their ultimate choice can defeat Trump. The info is interesting but hardly conclusive as the difference between preference for Bernie vs that for Joe Biden is not all that great. Bloomberg did not even rate. Let's face it, for a "front runner", Joe is off to a poor start in both Iowa and New Hampshire where the demographics of those states should have given him the advantage right away.
                     
                     I still say, "it's not over until the fat lady sings". As it is early and none of the numbers are really conclusive right now.

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                        Hxprofposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                        Credence, Trump CAN be squashed if the economy takes a magnificent dump this year.

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                           Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                           Prof, history does show that it is difficult to beat a first term incumbent if the electorate is not dissatisfied with the state of the economy, all the more reason we need massive turnouts and clear distinction between the future as laid out by a progressive candidate compared with continuing with Trump.

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                        PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                        I agree with everything you said in this thread. Bloomberg and Biden are simply other versions of Hillary. Putting either of them up against Trump would be just like 2016.

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         PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         I have to disagree. If Trump can win a general election, so can Bernie. I have heard quite a few Trump voters say they would have voted for Bernie over Trump. Bernie has a better chance of beating Trump than Bloomberg, a man who has alienated people of color and those like me who abhor the idea of a billionaire buying the presidency.
         
         Just my opinion. I am certainly no expert.

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            Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

            And i am willing to bet that Bernie would have defeated Trump in 2016, regardless of his so called Socialist agenda.

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      3. 79

         Eastwardposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         I wouldn't be surprised if Bloomberg's media-fueled rise follows the same pattern of voter turnout as Biden's. Biden was looking good in the polls going into Iowa but the poll numbers didn't translate into votes for him. The fate of the country lies in the hands of the youth vote. I'm hoping that Bernie can bring them to deliver. I just don't see any real excitement coming for another authoritarian billionaire with a very questionable past.

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            promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            It's again the lesser of two evil.
            
            The candidate who wins over the most independents will win the election.
            
            A far left candidate like Bernie has little appeal with moderates.
            
            Liking a candidate doesn't make him or her the best candidate to win an election.

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               Eastwardposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               I understand your point, Promisem. I'll admit to being exhausted and disheartened by the lesser of two evils argument though. It's been consistently used to allow significant evils to go unaddressed. I think it's time for us to draw the line.

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            Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Eastward, another good article describing the crisis that is Bloomberg, much like a wolf in the fold.
            
            A couple of great excerpts:
            
            "Bloomberg doesn’t care about the overall alignment of power in American politics, because his own power has never depended on it. The only thing threatening to diminish Bloomberg’s power is the possibility that Sanders or Warren might get elected president and bring enough like-minded people along with them. To him, the true crisis of Trump is that by devolving one of the major American political parties from plutocratic to kleptocratic, the president has given the left wing of the other party an opportunity to expand its influence. The proper counter-move, for a responsible plutocrat, is to try to buy out the opposition, to restore the nation’s former, politely unchecked levels of wealth accumulation.
            
            
            "Just listen to the people who fall outside Bloomberg’s vision of who matters and what he’s responsible for. When he allegedly told an employee who needed a nanny for her baby, “All you need is some black who doesn’t have to speak English to rescue it from a burning building,” he was making a racist and sexist remark, but those terms might be too narrow to capture the comment’s full tone. It seemed, principally, to be a joke about Bloomberg’s broad contempt for all categories of human beings who are not wealthy white men. This was not the panicky, Trumpy bigotry of Rust Belt Republicans, who organize their lives around imagining a vision of blackness or foreignness to pit their own identities against. It wasn’t the bigotry of the grasping or the obsolete. It was the bigotry of security. Bloomberg’s story about stop-and-frisk keeps changing because, in the end, he didn’t care one way or the other about having the police jack up hundreds of thousands of innocent young men. He only got angry when someone told him he wasn’t allowed to do it."
            
            So, in some sinister ways, Bloomberg may well be worse than Trump. This that stretches the very limits of credulity. And if we lose, I will have to resign myself to the fact that America is Trump and Trump is America and relocate to Canada or a Caribbean Island as my birthplace will become as inhospitable a place to live as the Moon.
            
            
            
            
            
            
            https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 … aign.html?

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               Eastwardposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               Thanks for sharing the article, Credence. Those are some powerful excerpts and I agree that Bloomberg is more of a crisis than a solution. It's possible that he could be worse than Trump as he wouldn't be met with the same level of resistance.
               
               If we end up with a Trump or Bloomberg presidency, I'll share your discontent. I've already physically relocated, but the US is my home (and my only citizenship). I had much higher hopes for what America would achieve in my lifetime and I still hold out hope despite it looking more and more like the country is a billionaire's plaything where voters are irrelevant. I guess we'll get a confirmation sooner than later.

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         Ken Burgessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         I have considered this as well.
         
         Bloomberg would be a more divisive and aloof President than Trump, but he is in the mold of Woodrow Wilson, racist, sexist, and Globalist.
         
         The Democrats would actually be putting into office a person that more resembles what they accuse Trump of being, than Trump is.
         
         ---
         
         That aside, if Bernie does win the nomination, and does win the election, the backlash the nation would have in response in either 2024 or 2028 would make the Nation's lurch to Trump look mild in comparison.
         
         Something Anarchists and Preppers might consider worth looking forward to, but I for one would not.
         
         Politics (especially and specifically in America) is about the Pendulum swinging one way then the other... action reaction... what type of response would there be to a 'revolutionary' like Bernie?

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      RJ Schwartzposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Bernie would make a fine candidate (I think he would have beat Trump in 2016 if the DNC hadn't stolen the nomination from him) but I don't think he has the voter base to win against the Trump-economy. 
      
      It will be interesting to see how America votes with the option of Capitalism and Socialism both on the ticket.

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         Eastwardposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         I couldn't agree more with your first comment, RJ. That makes all this really hard to stomach. Sanders had a real shot in 2016, but the DNC chicanery put an end to that (and they still have HRC and the Establishment media ghouls doing everything they can to discredit him).
         
         I hope we do get to see the battle of titans with Sanders vs. Trump and late stage capitalism vs. democratic socialism. At least that is a real choice.

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      Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      I hope that moderate democrats will remember that when a candidate wins they assume they won because of their agenda and ignore the 'anyone but' votes.
      
      If you want to support a socialist agenda, vote Bernie. If you don't, then letting 'orange man bad' determine your vote may make things worse than they already are.

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      1. 79

         Eastwardposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         In my humble opinion, voting on policy is far superior to "anyone but" voting and I agree that the agenda is what will take center stage.
         
         I'll vote on policy over candidate or party and Bernie has what is, to me, the best overall vision at this point. If the choice is Bloomberg vs. Trump, I'll feel that all we are left with is an "orange man bad" vote.

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            GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Just to toss in my '2-cents', I couldn't support Sanders. He is tossing out hundreds of billions and even trillions of dollars worth of freebie programs when he has to know, (as many auditors have stated), that his programs are realistically unaffordable. aka unattainable. But he is still tossing them out there.
            
            How can that be viewed in any way not to be disingenuous? His supporters want change, but shouldn't they also demand realistic change?
            
            As a note, this anti-Sanders tirade was fueled by watching his CNN Nevada Town Hall tonight. Geesh, he laid it on so thick I almost needed a snorkel.
            
            As a further note, I just can't see how you, Eastward, can believe there is any reality in Bernie's "policies."
            
            If you didn't catch his performance tonight, try to find it on youtube and visit the townhall thread to tell me what you think. (you should also watch Buttigieg's segment)
            
            GA

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   5. 77

      Sharlee01posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      May be time for voters to consider Sanders, but the DNC, and the media have made it clear, Bernie will not be the choice of the party. So, not sure I would waste to much time as a Dem backing him.  One would think poor Bernie should have seen this coming. I mean it's the same story as in 2016.

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         Randy Godwinposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         "Opinion-oriented"? 

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         PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         I love all the concern expressed by Trump supporters about who the DNC wants. The DNC can't force people to vote for who they want.
         
         Of course, the RNC loved  Trump back in 2016, didn't they? Lol

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            wildernessposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            "The DNC can't force people to vote for who they want."
            
            Have you forgotten the Democratic primaries in 2016 already?  They DID force a vote for the candidate they chose.

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               PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               Are you sure about that? That is not how I understand what happened. Please explain to me exactly how they did that  with reliable sources to back up your story.

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         Eastwardposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         The MSM headlines and DNC resistance to Bernie have (not to mention the petty backstabbing by HRC and her ilk) been truly shameful. The attempts to repeat 2016, the rule changes to pander to Bloomberg, the IA caucus chaos/Shadow, Inc app, it's all quite a clown show. Although, I still hold out hope that the sheer numbers of voters behind Bernie makes the election #TooBigToRig.

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   PrettyPantherposted 4 years ago

   My personal views are far more progressive than moderate, but I also believe that pragmatism is necessary to forward movement. I will enthusiastically support Bernie if he as the nominee. I hope Democrats are also focusing on  getting rid of Mitch and winning the Senate, as not much good  will get done no matter who is president if Mitch is still.in charge.

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      Eastwardposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Glad to hear that you are willing to give Bernie your full support if he's the nominee (he certainly has my support), PP. And good point about focusing on getting rid of Mitch and winning Senate seats. Even with a great array of policy ideas, Bernie will have a hard time enacting much if he has to hit a Senate wall of opposition.

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   PrettyPantherposted 4 years ago

   And now I find out Bloomberg has been sued over 40 times for sexual discrimination and harassment. I know Trump voters don't care but a good portion of the rest of us won't knowingly vote for a sexual predator.

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      Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Deleted
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         PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         The truth is that Trump was a known, self-admitted sexual.predator when voters decided to put a check mark by his name. That means they were fine voting for a sexual predator. Do you dispute this simple fact?
         
         I have already stated in another thread I would not vote for either Bloomberg or Biden if one becomes the Democratic nominee, and that was before I knew about these lawsuits.

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            IslandBitesposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            "Not surprised and I won't be surprised when you start singing praise toward Bloomberg  once he buys the nomination."
            
            That sounds familiar. The voice of experience?

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               PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               Lol, yes, I noticed.  She is projecting.

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                  Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Catty catty. Times two. You guys havingfun?

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                     PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                     Sheesh. I merely stated the truth. You're the one who called the truth "nasty."
                     
                     Your indignation over being reminded of your own behavior is really funny.
                     
                     As my son would say, "Chillax."

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            Live to Learnposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            As I said previously. My vote for Trump was a vote against Hillary.  His transgressions I considered less than hers. The outcome? A jerk who has also given us a booming economy and job growth.  I'm not displeased with the outcome.
            
            We'll wait and see on what your reaction will be were one of those to win three nominations. If you hold steady to your claim...well, let's just wait and see.

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               PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               There is no "waiting and seeing" necessary. I will not vote for either of them. Period. Just like I would never vote for Trump.

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                  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  We may differ there a bit, Panther. As bad as Bloomberg and Biden are, Trump is worse if only for his policy positions even as these men share similar deficits in character. That is enough to have me weigh in against Trump automatically.
                  
                  Bloomberg may well be worse than Trump as Trump and his ilk are a known quantity. Bloomberg in his attempt to buy the nomination ignoring a huge faction of the Democratic Party constuency, is a "Trojan horse" for the party. He is part and parcel of the "Establishment" which he is determine to maintain at any cost.
                  
                  It is no wonder that the GOP salivates at the prospect of his candidacy against Trump.

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                     PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                     I understand your position. I made a pact with myself a few years back to never knowingly support a blatantly  unethical person for any office. The nasty you see in them is only a tip of the iceberg, as they will hide their very worst qualities from others.
                     
                     I also think we need to seize this moment in history and select the anti-Trump, both as a statement against Trump's ugly behavior and policies and as a shot across the bow to the establishment that we're done with the wealthy controlling everything.
                     
                     Bloomberg is too much like Trunp; Biden  is like going backwatds.

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                  GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  If Biden or Bloomberg get the nomination would your vote be a write-in? (mine was in 2016)
                  
                  GA

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                     PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                     Yes.

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                        GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                        Good, there is hope for you yet. ;-)
                        
                        GA

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                        promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                        I used to do the same thing until I realized I was wasting my vote.
                        
                        No offense --- and you know we often agree -- but any Democrat who does a write-in vote instead of supporting the party's nominee is doing Trump a favor.

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      promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      I think you need to do a little more research. Many of those suits were against employees in Bloomberg's companies and not Bloomberg himself.
      
      And like Trump, he is innocent until proven guilty.
      
      Even Fox has gone easy on Bloomberg suits.
      
      https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/bloom … n-lawsuits

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         PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         I could do a little more research. Do you think if I found that, say, five directly involved Bloomberg and the rest were merely his company's policies or work environment that my mind would change?

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            promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            No. And I'm not asking you to accept a candidate who has proven sexual harrassment charges.
            
            I'm asking you to make a choice between voting for the Democratic nominee or not voting at all, which is really a vote for Trump.
            
            By the way, one of the allegations is that he said to someone, "I'd do her". If that's the definition of sexual harrassment, it's worthless. I've heard plenty of women at work say worse.

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               PrettyPantherposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               Well, sexual harassment can be in the eye of the beholder and since I wasn't there, I can't judge. I suppose if that were the only accusation then it would be reasonable to let it go.

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      Eastwardposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Not to mention he's yet another prominent elite with ties to Jeffrey Epstein
      https://newspunch.com/michael-bloomberg … -2020-run/
      
      Of course having ties to him doesn't mean he's a pedophile, but I'm pretty sick of drawing our leadership from the same barrel of fish. After all, there's some meat behind the old "birds of a feather" saying.

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         promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this

         Newspunch is a propaganda site from the far left.
         
         I'm sorry to say that site uses the same kind of tactics that Trump sites use.
         
         Please use more credible sources to criticise Bloomberg.

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            Eastwardposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            It's certainly a nearly impossible task to find unbiased journalism these days. However, this article contains the link to Jeffrey Epstein's redacted "little black book": https://davidharrisjr.com/patrick/micha … lack-book/
            
            And here's Snope's take on the photo (which I think you'll find fair, if nothing else): https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bloom … e-maxwell/
            
            Of course these don't make him guilty of anything. However, with all the accusations against him and these tidbits, there is a pattern of ideology and lifestyle that is worth taking into consideration.
            
            I think Julian Castro said it best, "If you look at [Bloomberg’s] record on race, on Wall Street, all of these sexual harassment complaints...he actually is Donald Trump’s wet dream. Trump wants to run against the guy that has all of this baggage"
            
            There's also this WaPo article about the past relationship of Bloomberg and Trump:
            https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics … story.html

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               promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this

               Thanks for the WP link. Like everything else involving people, we can't escape ALL bias. Some media outlets are less biased than others.
               
               I certainly respect your preference for Sanders. After hearing some of his speeches, I truly admire the strength and sincerity of his convictions.
               
               But if Sanders can beat Trump, I'll be mighty surprised. It goes against everything I have read.
               
               I'll make one other point. Consider how enthusiastically Republicans -- including some here -- love the idea of Sanders getting the nomination. That's a pretty obvious sign they think Trump can beat Sanders.

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                  Eastwardposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  You are most welcome. And very true about all media being on a scale. When I read WaPo, I consider the ownership and expect a pro-billionaire, pro-Establishment bias, and try to evaluate the value in journalism beyond that bias, same goes for understanding the agenda of other media outlets.
                  
                  I respect anyone's preferences for the candidate they think is best for the country, because I think that is really what it comes down to for everyone here on HP that contributes to political discussions (other places I find attitudes driven by agendas I cannot respect).
                  
                  I can't be sure that Sanders can beat Trump (polls look OK in that regard), but I hope he can deliver on that surprise for you. What I am much more sure of is that Sanders presents a rare opportunity, perhaps once in a lifetime, to swing the pendulum away from control by the 1% elite interests and return more power to the people.
                  
                  I'll agree that as much as some think Trump would revel in a head-to-head with Bloomberg and his similar baggage, some love the idea of going up against "Communist" Bernie Sanders (and inciting a new Red Scare).

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   IslandBitesposted 4 years ago

   Speaking of Bloomberg...
   
   This is worth watching.
   
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPErXnBrb6U

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      Eastwardposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks for sharing, IB. It looks like the trend for Biden support moving towards Bloomberg is continuing as donors make the switch: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/19/joe-bid … polls.html
      
      It is clear that Bloomberg's money has helped him rise significantly, but it will be interesting to see how things look after the debates.
      
      Of course, I'll be rooting for the point about the Bloomberg-Biden division helping Bernie.

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