The new unemployment claims numbers came out today...3.28million.
That number will only grow as the Corona Lock Down continues.
The majority of Americans don't even have $1,000 in the bank to cover emergencies.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/23/most-am … gency.html
Most companies have less than a month's cash reserves to keep their business, in business.
https://www.npr.org/2020/03/18/81768626 … nt-survive
Another major problem that will arise within a month... no more supplies.
Today shelves are being restocked... but the warehouses across the nation are being emptied out. Soon, the shelves will be empty and so will the warehouses. This pandemic panic to by canned foods, dry foods, paper materials has been nationwide, and the 'supply lines' cannot produce and replace those products fast enough to meet demand.
By mid April if we are not 'going back to normal' we may well begin to see a collapse of society on a national scale. We have seen pockets of it in the past, the looting that went on in blackout of NYC in 1977, the 1992 Los Angeles riots, but this has the possibility of hitting any and every major urban center around the same time. If things do not 'go back to normal' soon.
Depends what you put first; the elderly (particular those over 70) and people with underlining illnesses e.g. people with diabetes (people who are a drain on the economy anyway); or the economy itself.
You paint a bleak picture for America, and from what I’ve seen on CNN News I don’t dispute your graphic description.
In Europe, it’s going to be tough, and economies will go into recession, no doubt about that. But we are coping, and we will survive with continuing with the lock-down and social-distancing for however long it takes; war time spirit.
In Britain in particular, businesses will go bust, some already have; and unemployment will be at an all-time high once the pandemic is over. But, every employee in Britain who isn’t working because of the lock-down e.g. those not in essential services such as supermarkets and the NHS etc., are being paid 80% of their normal wages, by the Government; and (as announced today) most self-employed people will now also be paid 80% of what they would normally earn, by the Government. So that during the period where the British economy is shut down, most people will continue to have an income to pay their bills and buy food.
Food is being rationed (restricted) in the UK, but just as in wartime Britain over 70 years ago; people will be fed (we will not starve). Currently; priority for food is NHS staff first, elderly 2nd, and everybody else 3rd.
Well that sounds like a rational plan for the UK, time will tell how successful it will be, and for how long.
Without knowing more it appears at least that the 80% for those not working is a better means of dealing with the problem than what the US has come up with... if indeed, they have gotten past all the squabbling to pass something that would get money to Americans.
I have a hard time believing it until I see it, I suspect since my family has never fit into one of those 'qualify for assistance' niches that we will also be passed over for this.
Yep, when the pandemic is over experts will be carefully analysing the data and statistics on how each nation dealt the virus crisis, the impact it had on saving lives, the social impact and the effect on the economies; and there will be ‘Lessons Learnt’ for future planning.
If Italy is anything to go by three weeks isn’t going to be long enough to bring the pandemic under control; it’s more likely to be closer to three months (maybe longer) before we even begin to see any return to normality; and once the lock-down is lifted in the UK, Social-Distancing could still be strictly applied for another six months to year e.g. until a vaccine is developed and distributed.
I don’t know to what level the USA is in lock-down/Social-Distancing; I find the News Reports on CNN News confusing, with each State seemingly doing its own thing?
In the UK the entire population (except for key workers) was put into quarantine (lock-down) Monday evening. So, that now, we can no longer leave our homes unless it’s to :-
1. Buy food
2. Medical Reasons
3. To exercise once a day, or
4. Go to work if you are a key worker
The strict rule on exercise in the UK is that you are only allowed to go out once a day to exercise; and to keep at least 2 metres (6 feet, 6 inches) from anyone else you meet. And if you do go out in the UK you are not allowed to be in groups of more than two people.
Britain is now in a State of Emergency, the Police have been given ‘Special Powers’, and Parliament closed down today, until further notice; leaving the Government in total control. The State of Emergency Laws, giving the Government ‘Emergency Powers’ was passed by Parliament two days ago.
To enforce the State of Emergency police are putting up road blocks around the country, and patrolling the streets to prevent people from travelling unless it’s for one of the four reasons listed above. Anyone found flouting the ‘emergency laws’ e.g. for reasons other than listed above, or people gathering in groups of more than two, will be liable to a fine of £60 for a 1st offence, which doubles for each subsequent offence (£120 for 2nd offence, £240 for 3rd offence etc.). The police have also been given powers to arrest anyone breaking these laws, and the maximum offence of deliberating coughing on a Police Officer is 2 years prison.
I don’t know how this compares with the USA?
But one nice touch tonight (in Britain), a morale boost for the NHS, who are at the front line in fighting this virus, is that the nation was called upon to show their support and appreciation of the NHS, by going to their front doors at 8pm and applauding; as shown in the video below:-
Brits applaud NHS frontline healthcare workers nationwide: https://youtu.be/AHfHMvH7owo
I am impressed, would not have expected the UK to be so far ahead of the US in dealing with this in a firm and decisive way.
We have a thing called Nancy Pelosi, and another thing called AOC here in America... I suspect our death toll to be in the tens of thousands before our Left-wing branch of the government (the House) decides to actually allow something to be done.
Yes, the States are being allowed to run things as they see fit, but as California, Oregon, New York, etc. (all the progressive/liberal disaster states of America) fail to properly deal with the pandemic, the Federal government will have to step in, eventually.
The Left-wing media is trying hard to put all the blame on Trump, undermining everything he says or does, taking things out of context and fabricating false information to make it even worse, I thought I couldn't have a lower opinion of our News sources and their bias... I was wrong, the way they have handled this pandemic shows we have lunatics running our major media outlets.
We are essentially, a divided country incapable of unifying and dealing with any crisis in a productive way. Our politicians and media are failing America.
Yes, its rather pathetic how Pelosi and AOC are holding up the Relief Aid for their lunatic pet projects.
If we had an honest media to hold them accountable, Aid would already be getting to the States and American people.
Instead we have people who belong in an insane asylum, that somehow found their way into the House of Representatives, holding America hostage.
You missed an opportunity to blame Obama!
If you'll recall the bail-out in 2008, both the Right and the Progressive Left were pissed that corporations received so much of the bail-out money when many of the were the ones that cause the problem in the first place. This is where we saw both the rise of the Tea Party movement and left-wing movements like Occupy Wall Street.
Arguments over the current bill center around the so-called slush fund being set up that would allow Treasury Secretary Mnuchin to dole out $500 billion without any oversight. Further, as I understand it, that fund can be replenished, putting the total funds to nearly $5 trillion dollars.
Should we be allowing Mnuchin to dole out that money as he sees fit with no Congressional oversight?
That's the core of the argument.
The core of the argument was pork and pet projects.
The House Democrats knew they had the President, the Senate, and the Country by the jewels, and did everything they could to take advantage of it.
If they were ONLY concerned about oversight, they could have had it put in there and it would have passed by Tuesday.
I don't know who you are trying to convince with that absurd statement, yourself, or those who are ignorant of what went on this week who may read this.
https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/dem … -projects/
Also, who cares about Obama.
And, who cares about what they did in 2008, that was small potatoes to what is occurring now. As I have noted in my opening post.
Although, you could say one of the major problems we had back in 2008 was Pelosi, and the biggest problem we have now is Pelosi, funny how the politicians we can't get rid of after 8 years are such a cancer to the country.
I guess that's your opinion.
The alternate opinion is that Mitch McConnell put a bill together without any input from any Democrat. Naturally, that bill was weighted toward redistributing taxpayer dollars into corporate dollars and allowing the Secretary of the Treasury to determine who gets that money without any oversight by Congress.
As you might say, anyone with any common sense would know that if one party puts a bill together without the input of the other party, that bill has zero chance of moving forward.
Saying that Pelosi was the big problem in 2008 is pretty funny. Really, THAT was the big problem in 2008? That's your assessment? Any other problems in 2008 I may have missed?
Also, interesting link. Unbelievably biased in the first few words. Seems like your definition of a sheeple link.
Actually the timeline of events hasn't been well reported, the House, Senate, and President agreed to something in general a couple weeks back, then the Senate put off taking a weeks vacation (which the House took) to hammer out the Relief Act and vote on it.
It passed the Senate and went back to the House, members of Democrats after coming back from their long weekend wanted to trash it and propose their own version which had a lot of "pet projects" in it. Lots of new regulations, more sick leave, college debt forgiveness, benefits for wind and solar, etc.
That didn't go over well with anyone, media included, and so they shelved that and hammered away to get much of their pet projects included in the version that came down from the Senate.
Here is the thing, this is just ONE such act, they are already at work on a bigger "relief act" with more sweeping changes to come.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/us/p … -bill.html
https://www.axios.com/senate-passes-hou … d6477.html
The Democrats did little to put "restrictions" on where that "slush fund" of money went, their concern was getting as much of their agenda inserted into the Relief Act as possible. And those agendas had almost nothing to do with the current crisis or getting Americans relief.
Law Enforcement Today is a news and opinion site for those in the law enforcement profession. It is put forth by a community of law enforcement officers, veterans, active members of the military, and their friends, family, loved ones and supporters.
Crank, you can trust CNN and MSNBC for your truth and reality, and denigrate anything you don't feel is a "left wing" news source.
I will stick to what I consider more reliable and fact based information. That way I know what is really going on, and why.
My dozen years in the military, with another dozen after that working in close proximity to government programs and projects, has taught me how to find facts when I want them, and what sources can be relied on, and which ones cannot be... CNN and its ilk provides nothing reliable in my book.
I really do suspect that were you and I to sit down for coffee, we'd enjoy each other's company. I can't say that about too many people on this site. I suspect Wilderness would be another. And that's not because we would agree on anything (thought I suspect we would), but because I have an abiding respect for experience. I guess I'm just saying that to point out that this form of argument necessarily swings us to extremes and hyperbole frequently, which is not always how one would conduct oneself in person. I think we both realize almost nothing we write here is going to convince the other one of his righteousness or whatever you'd like to call it.
That all said, I find your statement that you're uniquely qualified to know facts when you see them to be pretty much a huge part of the problem. No matter how dumb, uneducated, untrained, that's pretty much everyone's statement nowadays. I just know it when I see it.
As far as I can tell, you're just reading stuff that reinforces your opinion. The link you provided established quite quickly that the source was junk. It's opinion and anyone can have one. It's right-wing opinion and that's fine. But the vast majority of these links are sites with no staff for their news who quite clearly cannot generate enough revenue to have one and are therefore simply regurgitating other stories they find on the internet. They don't do research. They don't have reporters. They just reprint. All the links are pretty much the same.
The Right has been the party of God for some time, at least since Reagan. The Religious Right has been the biggest driver of that party. They always knew better than the rest of us because of God. They knew the truth because of God. We should all believe them because they knew God's word. In many cases, God even spoke to them. Now the Right gives us truths with absolutely no evidence that they aren't just relying on God's will and word still. It's pretty much the same thing.
CNN is a lot of junk and a lot of opinion. Their news division has devolved into opinion, which disgusts me. Still, if you weed that stuff out, you can get to the research. There's still real journalism in there. Mostly though, it disgusts me because they're just trying to play the same game that Fox plays. Each is a good example of the worst of capitalism. The news is now more marketing than it is news. We're all the worse for it. I wish there was a bi-partisan news site that stuck to the news. Unfortunately, it would probably fail in a couple of weeks. And you and I totally agree on local news - complete sh**.
I'm sure you will continue to blame the Democrats. Mitch has done a great job positioning himself and setting the Democrats up and the Democrats took the bait. I wish I could send you a recording of the last time the DNC called me for money. But Mitch's job is to put money into the pockets of corporations and he did a great job doing so with this bill. He says it helps average Americans, but basically he's cutting a bunch of us checks to divert our attention for a bit.
I'm sure there's much we agree on - exposing China for the bad actor it is, the need to have government stop working for corporations and start working for average Americans, the influence of special interests in politics; etc.
I have a deep, abiding respect for those who have served. I'm sure you've seen your share of government bureaucracy and I have little doubt your distaste for it is strong. As we know, military folks tend to lean conservative, usually because the Right has always been the party of a bigger military.
Anyway, clearly we're not going to convince each other because we both rely on our experience and education and they're very different. Sorry to ramble, just had some time to kill.
Pelosi's next effort will involve giving gifts to her constituents and Mitch's next effort will involve giving gifts to pay off his. That seems to be how it works. When I try to hang my hat on something and why I lean the way I do, usually it comes down to facts. The Right, for the most part, rejects science and scientific inquiry, so when you say you know facts, that is not something I see from the Right. Basic educational principles are questioned. Texas rewrites American history in their textbooks. Stuff like that.
The bulk of your scientists lean Left. The bulk of your religious kooks lean Right. If we're distilling things down somewhere, that's usually where it goes for me. And I'll say this again - l'm good friends with one of the most conservative people in my entire state. He's just a good guy. Funny. Self-deprecating. These forums are not really conducive to any sort of positive, human interaction, which is why I disappear for long stretches. We're just talking into the wind and it's a waste of time.
I also remain liberal, though I'm fiscally conservative, because of conservative attitudes toward women, race ("diversity is a cancer"), and various other things.
I voted for Elizabeth Warren in our primary and am mortified about the choice I'm faced with now in the general come November.
It is hard to get a message across through typed words, without proper context.
Made infinitely more difficult when people decide to pigeon hole me as a "Conservative" or "Nazi" or whatever they deem fits.
Perhaps my views lean towards those things, but I am not those things, I do not hold firm to a religious belief, or a political ideal.
I am not one to be a zealot or quote the Communist Manifesto or the Doctrine of Fascism, I am not going to quote Oswald Spengler or Zbigniew Brzezinski as if what they spouted was gospel.
I allow myself to be driven by what I feel is right, and I find that often enough, that is what is true and best for me.
Of course our perspectives and beliefs will be different.
Just ask yourself, what type of person does it take just to be able to get through the grind required to become an Army Ranger, and then what type of mindset is required to do that 'job'.
Have you ever screwed your courage to the sticking point and accepted the fact that to accomplish your mission, you most likely will die?
The horrors of what humans can do to one another knows no limits. The insane level of dedication to accomplish one's goals that some can achieve should never be doubted. I have seen people wantonly throw their lives away just to bring harm to others.
Just below the calm civilized society we have cultivated in the world (particularly the Western World) there is a savagery, which can easily be found in places like Somalia... and we are never that far from falling to such depravity ourselves, we may be coming close in the weeks ahead to that precipice.
Some people can't accept such realities, their protected minds can't process it... so when they hear something like: China is harvesting organs from living prisoners that don't receive anesthesia, they can't accept it.
There-in lies the problem, some of us are all too aware of what is out there, and what we need to do to protect ourselves from it. And others don't have that experience, and refuse to accept anything that alters their perception of the world.
When I was very young, I used to wonder: Why would the Jews willingly get into those trains? Why didn't they fight against those coming to take them away?
It took many years, but I understand it now. They just couldn't accept the reality. They were unwilling to believe the truth right in front of them.
I see this now, with those who are willing to support this current criminal cabal that has taken over the Democratic Party, I see it now, when they close their eyes to all that Biden has done, and his senility, and they are willing to support him anyways...
Just as they are willing to believe Trump is a puppet of Putin. How insane is that? But there are people out there willing to believe Trump is in fact taking orders from Putin.
Truth is to accept that all that CNN spouts is lies and propaganda, that the Democratic Party which they have long supported has now become America's biggest enemy.
It takes a strong will and even stronger mind to accept such truths, and reject what has always been central to one's life.
Its not easy... it was jarring for me when I learned some of these truths.
Indeed, its not a path many will choose to willingly walk.
So they will keep their eyes tightly closed to it.
Yep, I’m impressed too; but not totally surprised because historically e.g. during the Great Depression of the 1930’s and the two world wars, ‘For The Sake of the Nation’ British politicians have always put politics (and their political differences) to one-side and formed a National Government (an apolitical government that incorporates all political parties working together for a common cause).
And during this crisis; in typical British fashion during a State of Emergency, Boris Johnson (Prime Minister) has had the full support, and full backing, from all political parties, and the House of Lords; so that all the necessary Legislation could be passed by Parliament within a day or two, without delay, and without Amendments.
Even with British Manufacturers, the ‘war time’ spirit is kicking in. The NHS currently has 8,000 ventilators, and will soon have another 8,000 from other parts of Europe; but with an estimated need of 30,000 ventilators at the peak of the pandemic in the UK, which they expect to be by the end of April; they need a further 14,000 ventilators to meet their target. So British Car Maker McLaren and Airbus (British aeroplane manufacturer) have formed a consortium which can be in full production by next week to make 4,000 ventilators by the end of April, and Dyson (a British Manufacturer of vacuum cleaners) also plans to be in full production within 10 days to make 15,000 ventilators by the end of April, 10,000 for the NHS, and 5,000 for other countries.
Dyson to produce 10,000 ventilators to tackle pandemic in Britain:- https://youtu.be/Xj44w4f3MYE
We have some hope here in America, from pioneering entrepreneur Musk getting involved:
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/03/te … ntilators/
To Ford and the Ford family stepping up and getting involved as well.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyfeldman … 2752693dc2
Of course it didn't hurt that the President asked them to do so:
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru … production
The President is trying hard to keep this from becoming a Martial Law type of scenario, not imposing the Defense Production Act or any other War Powers and allowing the States to deal with it.
His job would be far easier if the House would actually allow the Coronavirus Relief Package to pass without trying to attach every non-critical pet project and progressive payout (things that would never get through the Senate otherwise) to it.
In the end, the House by dragging this out, and not passing the Relief Act days ago, may well force America into a situation where Martial Law may be the only option available to keep things under control when this drags on for weeks more.
All this reminds me of a little story about an appartment building on fire at night. Goes like this:
Once upon a time a big house with many tenants caught fire. There was smoke all over the place. Families had to be rescued by brave firemen Sams. Next day newspapers were full of stories about brave heroes who had rescued many people.
... nobody talked about those who had their smoke detectors in place and working, who simple led their families safely outside.
In the US there are either no smoke detectors or the were deliberately ignored. But of course, the US has lots of heroes. Sorry to be a little sarcastic.
The dynamics of infection rate and death rate is quite stunning. Just divide 70 by the daily increase (in percent) and you have the doubling period (should be now 2,8 days for infection and 2 days for mortality).
Divide 230 by increase rate and you have the magnitude (x 10) period.
Simple math (natural logarithm ln).
If Covid 19 is not stopped or slowed by social distancing, within 10 days it will pass the first million infected in the US. It will take 8 days or less for 10.000 deaths.
It took China some 3 months to get stable. I dare say that social distancing without full isolation will slow the process. So we (in the West) will need almost double (4-6 months).
A good number to estimate what is really happening may be to compare natural mortality with corona cases. Outbreak (first 100 infected) was March 4th. From that date on some 250 to 260 thousand people died in the US. Compare this with the Corona deaths. So i have some sympathy for recent word from Trump about the medicine and the disease.
Economic fallout will be tremendous. Easily doubles Lehman crisis from 2007/2008. The medicine will be really expensive.
A last sarcastic note: I hope it will remove all those Zombie corporations who until now had only survived from cheap money drugs.
Overall a sad situation, but something to correct had to be coming economically with all the money printing from central banks.
The only point I would like to add is that it’s only the USA (and apparently Russia) who are using the approach of ‘Social Distancing’ without full isolation, and not the ‘West’ as you stated.
Countries across Europe (including the UK) where the virus has started to spread out of control have ALL gone into lock-down (curfew 24/7).
In comparing the stats you provide for the USA with the UK:
USA, first 100 infected on 4th March. Current total of deaths from the virus stands at 1,295.
UK, first 100 infected on 5th March. Current total of deaths from the virus stands at 578.
Noting from your figures that mortality from the virus in America is doubling every two days. In the UK, deaths from the virus started to rise sharply on the 14th March; and doubled every two days until the 19th March. It then slowed to doubling every 3 days until the 22nd March, then from the 22nd March until now it had taken 4 days for the deaths to double again.
Certainly true, what you write.
But i have to correct myself. Comparison with long term natural mortality is not applicable to describe the situation. Spain has a natural mortality of some 1500 people per day. In Spain, Corona currently takes some 500 and growing and in hotspots. So this is nothing to neglect. Italy similar situation.
Especially these 30 to 50% daily on top in hotspots really stress the health care system. Creates huge moral conflicts. For example in France (Alsass, Strasbourg) sick people beyond 80 are not to be respirated or treated in intensive care.
Corona will overload the health care system but i hope at the end of the year nothing of significance will remain. A hint:
There is this cruise ship: Diamond Princess. Was under full lockdown. Some 3200 people on board, 750 infected, all but 8 dead recovered. What does my little math do (life expectancy 80 years, lockdown 75 days): Natural death count: 3200 / 80 / 365 * 75 = 8,2 statistically. Same as Corona death count. So all walking on the plank only got a little premature kick from Corona and had to jump possibly a little early, but then the plank was empty. Please forgive me this interpretation. For individuals in question certainly not very comfortable.
Your math for the cruise ship doesn't work, for the 3200 you are treating as a random sample is far from that. There are no terminally ill people on board - they all have every expectation of surviving the trip without undue medial problems. In addition, none will die from car collisions, falls from ladders or gang shootings.
Bottom line is that the 8.2 that you statistically assume will die should be very near to zero. Consider how many people, out of the tens of thousands every year, die while on a cruise; that is the figure you must compare the corana deaths to. It does happen, but the percentage is a tiny fraction of what you're showing it to be.
I beg to object.
An average population with average age distribution will have a death rate derived from life expectancy. Doesn´t matter if it is a tiny island, a large nation or a swimming island like a cruise ship.
You can argue about life expectancy, age distibution (service personal younger than average, passengers older than average), number of people on board, but that will only habe minor impact.
And believe me, people die onboard. Cruise ships have a standard procedure for these cases, body bags, cooling storage, all that stuff.
Just imagine: A cruise ship like the Diamond Princess with 3200 people on board surrounds the world year after year. Natural death rate will take away (in average) 40 people per year. So after 80 years nobody would be left, when no babies born.
Please don´t get confused by the yearly passenger count on a typical cruise ship. In one year there may be 50.000 on a ship, taking a cruise for 3 weeks. But at any given time, only 3.200 are on board and that is the number to compute with. By the way: on an average 3 week cruise and reducing the potential critical flock to some 2000 mostly elderly passengers, you have 2 persons die. Diamond Princess had a 75 day lockdown, different story.
If my little maths was wrong, i would strongly recommend people going on a cruise. Keeps you healthy, you don´t die ...:-)
I believe States may begin to consider such options.
I have expected them to do as much.
However, I think the lack of control and impactful leadership in states like NY and CA will be problematic, they are so inept that the Federal Government may be forced to step in if things get worse there.
The Governors of both those states, are making daily speeches these days, crying for help, saying they can't handle the crisis without the Fed coming and doing all the heavy lifting and spending.
These are states that have for many years now been a burden on the rest of the nation, CA alone eats up more than the next two states on the list combined for welfare support at well over 100 billion. New York, at number two, paid out 63 billion in 2016.
Politicians in CA and NY are great at blaming others once the disaster hits, but totally incompetent at taking the steps necessary to prevent the disaster in the first place.
Other states like Texas and Florida, which are more independent and self sustaining will likely handle this pandemic far better, time will tell.
One question I’m not clear on is how are State Boundaries being dealt with in the USA e.g. if people can freely travel between States then infected people carrying the virus are going to be continually spreading the virus across State Borders from State to State and Authorities are always going to be firefighting; rather than putting States that are highly infected into quarantine, to allow other States to better contain the problem e.g. to slow the spread across the whole of the USA?
Funny you mention that, we have begun implementation of border control and martial law here in America.
It will happen state by state of course, but it has already begun:
https://www.wpri.com/health/coronavirus … s-from-ny/
As part of the mandate, National Guard members will also be going door-to-door in Rhode Island’s coastal communities starting Saturday to log who in town is visiting from New York and ordering them to self-quarantine.
Anyone who doesn’t self-quarantine as ordered will face a fine, and for subsequent offenses prison time.
“It’s the law. We are serious about this,”
Good to hear Ken.
On a side issue: I couldn’t access the link because it is ‘Censured’ in Europe (a problem I occasionally come across when I correspond with an American in New York where he’s prohibited from viewing some European sites, or I’m prohibited from viewing some American sites). In spite of the link being blocked to me, you’ve explained admirably enough.
In the UK, as well as road blocks, the police are also using drones to enforce the curfew (as per this video of the Derbyshire Police patrolling the Peak District: https://youtu.be/JbvWniXcNhA
That video was hilarious. Seriously, what difference does it make, what those people are doing, when they are isolated and miles away from the next person?
That came across as more of a "Big Brother" video to me:
No matter where you go, no matter how far away from civilization you get, we will know if you break the law !
As far as the virus, if this is something that people can be re-infected with (and there is some rumblings that this is the case) and if the second time around is far more life threatening than the first (also something I've read) things will be far more dire than they are now, in a matter of weeks.
As for the border closings, here in the States, what RI is doing, will have little impact, a infected person who rides on the train, bus, or makes stops at gas stations and fast food joints will be spreading it to everyone they come in contact with.
Only a complete closure of the borders can prevent this, and no state will enforce that, other than Hawaii which is on its way to doing so, and Alaska, its nearly impossible to enforce.
Of course if things don't go back to normal as far as work and jobs go, I think there will be bigger issues to contend with, such as social unrest and violence becoming hard to contain.
I agree Ken, the video is hilarious to watch; but it’s serious. I know that logic would tell you that people out for a walk, isolated and miles away from the next person shouldn’t make any difference.
However, when Social-Distancing was first introduced in Britain, towns and cities became deserted, and people flocked to the countryside in their thousands; defeating the objective of people not gathering in groups. Australia had a similar problem and has had to close beaches to prevent social gathering.
Below, this was a video my wife made of deserted Bath just hours before Britain went into ‘lockdown’ (the first time she ever used the camera) e.g. my wife and son visited bath (just half hour drive from where we live) as a last chance opportunity to stretch their legs before the country went into lockdown. Bath, as a tourist attraction, normally being a city bustling with people:-
Bath Deserted Streets: Just Hours before UK Pandemic Lock-Down https://youtu.be/l6XXhp_60lY
Therefore, to prevent people from social-gathering e.g. flocking to the countryside; the law in the UK is that you are only allowed out of your house once a day to exercise, alone or with your family only (maximum two people), and that your exercise must be local to where you live (and by inference short period of time). And during your exercise, if you do see someone else you must keep your distance from them of 2 metres (6 feet, 6 inches).
Yes, it may seem like ‘Big Brother’, but it’s not just the UK who are enforcing these laws vigorously, most European countries like Italy, Spain, France etc., who are also on ‘lock-down’ are also imposing ‘martial law’ just as vigorously.
I have heard rumours that some people might not build up immunity (develop anti-bodies), and become re-infected but that hasn’t been substantiated yet; and if it is, from the current evidence, it is only likely to be a small percentage of the population. So until a vaccine is developed and distributed ‘heard protection’ might be the only short to medium term tool at our disposal; if it’s used wisely.
Yes, an infected person who rides on a train, bus, or makes stops at petrol station, or at DIY stores or food shops (the only shops still open in the UK) can spread the virus to other people that they come into close contact with. That is why for example supermarkets (food shops), for those who don’t opt for home delivery, limit the number of people allowed into the shop at any one time, and have placed floor markings inside and outside the shop, spaced at 2m (6ft 6 inches) intervals to help people to keep their distance from each other.
DIY stores have been allowed to stay open because DIY is a popular pastime in the UK, and it’s an activity people can do while staying at home. However, instore browsing and shopping is banned. To get your DIY supplies (if you don’t opt for home delivery) you have to buy it on-line and your local store will send you a text message when it’s ready for collection. You then drive into their carpark and wait in your car for them to bring your goods to a collection point near your car in the carpark; then (with nobody else close to you) you collect your goods from the makeshift collection point in the carpark.
Contrary to the States in the USA, borders across Europe are all now completely closed.
It wouldn’t surprise me if social unrest and violence does become hard to contain in the USA if they imposed the same level of martial law that is imposed across Europe; but in Europe it is very much a ‘wartime spirit’ because we know the importance of ‘total lockdown’ (curfew 24/7) in fighting the virus; and as a people we fully back our government’s actions (including opposition Political Parties) e.g. The Conservative Government in the UK has the full backing of the Labour Party, SNP and all other Socialist Parties in the UK. The people of Europe (regardless to politics) fully back their governments, even if it means it’ll take three months or more before the ‘martial law’ rules can be relaxed e.g. Italy has been in ‘full lockdown’ since the 8th March, and still no sign of easing up on the curfew.
First let me say, wow, what an incredible place to live. To be able to walk on and see such antiquity on a regular basis must be inspiring.
Here in the states more and more Governors are putting out curfews and self-isolation orders, NV, CA, TX, it seems my state is one of the few remaining free from much enforced restriction.
Local restaurants and beaches are closed, cruise ships are docked and not going anywhere, but Space X and NASA are still full go, as are many businesses not related to the service industry.
Yep Ken, Bath is a beautiful city that we love to visit periodically; it’s a popular and thriving tourist attraction all year round, even its ‘German Christmas Market Stalls’ in the run up to Christmas are well worth a visit.
Bath was built by the Romans almost 2,000 years ago, and it gets its name from the ‘Public Hot Baths’ the Romans built there because of the natural hot springs in Bath; the Roman Baths being one of many popular tourist attractions in the city.
TOP 10 THINGS TO DO IN BATH: https://youtu.be/UItDEHPKJlQ
On the political level, Bath is a very wealthy city. To live there you need to be super rich, so in theory it should be easy pickings for the Conservative Party; but surprisingly it’s a Liberal Democrat Stronghold.
Even Lord Bath (Alexander Thynn, 7th Marquess of Bath), a Hereditary Peer (Lord), an eccentric, and a very lovable person liked by all, is a Liberal Supporter:
Lord Bath at home with favourite dogs: https://youtu.be/BgrLhMS40I8
Yes, it is good how manufacturers can switch production fast and efficiently during a time of crisis, just as happened during the 2nd world war. Others I’ve heard of in Britain are two wineries who switched from making wine to sanitizers for the NHS, and another Company who voluntarily (altruistically) put up £20 million of its own money to manufacture medical equipment for the NHS.
Boris Johnson (UK Prime Minister) initially tried the soft approach of Social Distancing, but it proved not to be effective enough e.g. people were still coming in contact with each other and passing the virus on throughout the community.
Therefore, like many European Countries have already done, Boris felt he had no choice other than Martial Law, and a FULL CURFEW (24/7). And it’s not so bad either (the typical British wartime spirit); the Nation (the people), the public and the businesses alike, are in full support of the lock-down (curfew 24/7), because we know it is ‘The Right Thing to Do’. Full curfew (lock-down) is the only way to effectively stop the speed of the virus.
I don’t know how effective the measures, that America is taking, will be (time will tell); but for Americans to return to work by Easter, as Trump wants, will undo any good that those measures may have had, and quicken the spread of the virus.
Yes, your last paragraph “We are essentially, a divided country incapable of unifying and dealing with any crisis in a productive way. Our politicians and media are failing America” says it all.
I’ve been following these debates in this and other related forums, and despair at the way American’s are tearing each other apart at a time when unity is so much needed “together we stand, divided we fall”.
You don’t see political discord in European counties. At a crisis time like this European citizens and opposition political parties are giving their respective governments’ full support to fight this virus (the common enemy); politics are being put to one side for the duration, just as happened in wartime Europe during the 2nd world war (The wartime spirit).
Even when this crisis is over, there will be no political incrimination in Europe; that would be in bad taste. We will do what we did in the aftermath of the 2nd world war, not dwell on the past, but focus on the future e.g. rebuilding our economies; that’s when the politics will start again in Europe (how best to rebuild our economies).
As regards to references of CNN and Fox News, which creep into these debates; I can only speak from a British perspective:-
The only American News Channel we get on British TV is CNN. I do regularly watch CNN to see what an American News Channel is telling Americans about Britain; and from my observations CNN does a reasonably good job at providing the facts some of the time; but, all too often the presenters do put political spin on their reporting of events in Britain (which at times is tantamount to propaganda) and occasionally CNN misrepresent the facts about Britain through ignorance. But on balance, it’s fairly representative of the facts about Britain most of the time.
As regards Fox News, I do occasionally view their News Report of Britain from YouTube; but it’s not a News Channel I watch because more often than not, too many of the Fox News Reports on Britain is ‘Fake News’; and what isn’t fake news is almost invariably propaganda or deliberate political spin.
Likewise, Trump is rather apt at lying when making comments about the UK; the most recent lie told by Trump being yesterday when he boasted that America manufacturers will be coming to the UK and Europe’s rescue by supplying us with the much needed ventilators. Whereas, in actual fact, it’s Dyson (a British manufacturer of vacuum cleaners) who will be producing the bulk of the ventilators that our NHS will need: Not only is Dyson making the 10,000 ventilators the NHS has asked for, but they are also making a further 5,000 ventilators voluntarily to ‘donate’ to other countries in need (as humanitarian aid).
• Dyson (British Manufacturer) Develops Ventilator for COVID-19 patients in 10 days https://youtu.be/kLsyUg-ldSk
That's great when manufacturers leave their product behind to help in a crises with a totally different product. We're seeing it in car manufacturers making ventilators.
But I'm confused that Trump said we would ship ventilators to Europe; he specifically said that varying specifications prohibit American ventilators from being used over there. Someone isn't telling "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" or there is a faux Donald Trump out there somewhere.
Not wishing to be political at a time like this; Trump does seem to be frequently contradicting himself from one day to the next!
I'm sure he said it just to sound magnanimous.
It's obvious Nathan believes CNN is a legit news source, he has tried to convince me of this in the past.
It is a wasted effort, as I have stated in the past, this goes beyond my belief or feelings, to actual events I have been involved in that were reported 100% falsely by CNN.
The perks of having 'boots on the ground' in foreign lands, and knowing what is actually occurring vs what is reported.
Of course, there is still ample evidence of CNN lies to be found, despite the ongoing efforts to remove such from YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV1sXkA … p;index=14
Nope, if you read carefully what I said, I am not defending CNN as a good News Source. There are times when they do twist the facts about events in Britian; as I stated above. But, speaking about their coverage of events in Britain (which is all I can make an observation on) CNN has never 'faked the news' in relation to their reporting of British Current Affairs; whereas FOX news does.
The first detailed Public Opinion Poll published today shows the solidarity of support Boris Johnson (British Government) has from the British People for his handling of the COVID-19 crisis in the UK.
A week prior to the lock-down (curfew 24/7) in the UK:-
55% of Brits thought he was doing a good job in tackling the virus issue, and
30% of Brits thought he was doing a bad job.
On the day of the lock-down (curfew 24/7) last week, in the UK:-
59% of Brits thought he was doing a good job, and
31% of Brits thought he was doing a bad job.
One week after the lock-down (curfew 24/7) today, in the UK:-
72% of Brits think he’s doing a good job, and
Only 21% of Brits think he’s doing a bad job.
When the figures are broken down into political alliance:
93% of Conservative voters think Boris is doing a good job in handling the virus crisis.
66% of Liberal Democrats think Boris is doing a good job, and
Even 56% of Labour (Socialist voters), a healthy majority, thinks Boris is doing a good job.
When the figures are broken down into age groups:
60% of 18-24 year olds in Britain think Boris is doing a good job in handling the virus crisis.
68% of 25-49 year old Brits think Boris is doing a good job
74% of 50-64 year old Brits think Boris is doing a good job, and
82% of 65+ year old Brits think Boris is doing a good job.
I would imagine that has a lot to do with the News media being supportive of the efforts ongoing.
The same would probably be true here in America, and Americans would probably be uniting to handle the crisis... but we are not, because most 'news' media is still fully on the attack attempting to make Trump look bad every chance they get (CNN, MSNBC fully guilty of this).
And on top of that, we have politicians trying to score personal victories for themselves and the pet projects they champion.
In the House... we have everything from AOC wanting to give relief aid to illegal immigrants, to Pelosi pushing an alternate relief package that had everything from solar and wind perks to new regulations on airlines.
Well, Ken, if those politicians didn't already know how to behave that way, they certainly learned it during Obama's 8 years where Republicans spent every waking moment bashing Obama and trying to delegitimize him as both a President and a human being.
Remember Bill O'Reilly, only 90 days into Obama's first term, saying he was a failed President? That's really giving the man a chance.
When you've witnessed such hatred toward somebody, why would you behave differently. So sure, it's all the Left's fault.
"Well they did this to Obama so its OK that this is done now to Trump."
I am sick of reading such petty reasoning for the idiocy we are seeing today.
I don't care what happened in the past, and I don't care who did it.
We are now in uncharted waters, the level of disaster facing the country, and the entire global economy, has never been dealt with before.
Not exactly; British Television is heavily Regulated, so the News Media Broadcasted on British Television only report matter-of-factly, as biased and unbalanced reporting on British Television is prohibited under British Broadcasting Laws.
What has won the British hearts and minds over (to be fully behind the British Government) isn’t the News Media; it’s the fact that from day one Boris Johnson (quite out of character) has (unlike Trump) been open and honest with the British Public; no hiding the truth, no down-playing the seriousness of the situation, no sugar coating, and no making of false promises.
Today’s Government’s Broadcast to the Nation was a simple message “It will get worse before it gets better”, and the UK “could be in total lock-down until at least June”.
I note that you haven’t made any criticism of Trump (just as Trump always blames others, never takes any of the blame himself); whereas it takes two to tango e.g. as an observer from across the pond it seems both sides are to blame.
Oh now, you can go back and find plenty of statements I have made that are not complimentary to Trump.
It wasn't so long ago I even said I would prefer Pence to Trump, if only because Pence is far more articulate and has a calm reserved manner when dealing with the idiotic American media.
However, I stopped that line of thought, after taking the time to watch one of Trump's recent press conferences. Trump was on point and fairly calm, allowing the experts to say their piece, it wasn't until the Press started attacking him with the most idiotic and baited questions that he started getting cross and argumentative.
Yes I know, he has been calling them 'fake news' and 'enemies of America' from before he was President, and so they keep on the attack, but all they are doing now is proving him right.
Like him or hate him, he is the President, and during such crisis its time for the Press and the 'News' to put aside the politicking and the self-aggrandizing and do their part to help the President, to help the country, so we can all get through this.
Your view on what Trump has done, is skewed by the biased coverage you get in your country. Especially if what you are watching is CNN.
I apologies if I’ve missed your previous criticism of Trump and falsely claiming you support Trump regardless. I’ll take your word for it that your current ‘support’ for Trump is reasoned and not just blind faith.
I don’t care to get involved with American politics; I’ve got better things to do in life than worry about politics across the pond e.g. Whether Trump takes stringent measures (like Europe) to prevent the spread of the virus, or whether he truly does encourage people to go back to work by Easter; which if he does could help to spread the virus and make matters worse.
But what I do take objection to is when Trump sticks his nose in British affairs (which he does all too often) making false claims about Britain, which he frequently does. It’s got nothing to do with biased reporting; it’s what comes straight out of the horse’s mouth.
And no my views on Trump are now skewed by the biased News coverage I get in the UK. Apart from major International News, most of the time the only real coverage we get of Trump on British TV News Channels is when he makes tweets about the UK, and because of the strict Regulations on Broadcasting preventing British broadcasters giving biased reporting, Trump’s tweet is shown on the screen, but unlike American TV the British News Presenters do NOT add their opinions or comments, as it could bias the viewer. All they do is show Trump’s tweet, and report any reaction from the British Government or British Public e.g. Trump is the all-time most unpopular American President in the UK. So it stands to reason that when Trump tells lies about the UK in his tweets it’s going to make the British public angry.
And the only reason I dip into CNN (as previously stated) is to gauge what garbage or truths an American TV News Channel is feeding the American public about British Affairs. Most of the time in recent years the garbage spouted about Britain by CNN has been about Brexit and has had little or nothing to do with Trump. And as I said before, when it comes to reporting about British Current Affairs, CNN does on balance provide reasonably accurate picture to the American public of British Current Affairs; but all too often it’s tinged with political spin and misinformation; which will biased the American viewer. But CNN does not FAKE NEWS about Britain, unlike Fox News.
Ken loves Fox and hates CNN. So there's that, Nathan....
Another falsehood, but that's not a surprise from you.
I also had that impression myself Randy, from previous forums, but I note below that Ken says otherwise. So I stand corrected, if that's the case.
I believe we had a dialogue a couple (or few) years back on the very topic of where to get information and why, regarding the news.
Even back then I was an advocate for finding information anywhere other than from a primary American news outlet.
Back when I was often out of country, I always found a great wealth of information on what was going on in the world from foreign news sources.
I remember being able to watch Russian military training exercises being reported on in a foreign country. Something that would never have been reported on in American news.
The more I traveled the more I realized how restricted and mis-informative American news was.
The WSJ is a good source for information, foreign outlets are often good sources as they are on the outside looking in, reporting on American activities on the global stage they are not trying to 'sell' the activity to the American people, or put a political spin on it.
Thanks for the clarity Ken. Funny you should mention the WSJ, I've also found some of their material to be a good source for information. My favourite WSJ video being "Hiking England's Public Footpaths": https://youtu.be/mdOpg7sZB4g
I will take your word for it, I don't pay attention to either CNN or FOX... I can tolerate Bloomberg and CBS when I am in dire need to find out what is going on, which is rarely, and I will watch on Pluto TV as I no longer waste money for Cable/Direct TV.
The major American news sources (CNN, MSNBC, FOX) rot the brain IMO, they don't expand one's understanding of what is going on in the world, they restrict it.
I don’t blame you for ditching Cable TV; a close friend of mine did that earlier this year and finds that he gets all the Channels he needs from Freeview (85 free terrestrial TV Channels) and Freesat (220 free satellite TV Channels).
I haven’t gone that route because although all the Channels that are on Freeview and Freesat are also available on Cable TV and Satellite; and most of the Channels I regularly watch on Cable TV are also on Freeview and Freesat, I would miss some of the Premium Channels like UK GOLD etc.
I can understand your sentiment: I can’t watch CNN for long periods; it would send me nuts; and I agree with you, that to do so would “rot the brain”, and it doesn’t “expand one’s understanding of what is going on in the world, it restricts it”. Besides I’ve got better things to do than be glued to the set watching the News all the time.
Fortunately, our Cable TV Box (TiVo 6) commissioned by Virgin Media (the Cable Company) has 6 inbuilt tuners, so I can record 6 programmes while watching a 7th. Therefore, rather than sitting in front of the TV set, watching ‘Live TV’ and switching from one News Channel to another during periods of major News Events; I just set the Cable Box to record all News Channels at once, and then wonder off for half an hour to do something else. Then when I get back I can first watch the headlines on the British News Channels then switch to each News Channel in turn and fast forward to the News Items that is topical or is of interest to me.
That’s one thing that bugs me about CNN is that unlike the British News Channels they don’t give the headlines on the hour. The headlines are useful because they list in just 30 seconds the stories that will be covered for the next hour on that News Channel; so you instantly know whether there is anything worth waiting for or not.
Apart from the fact that the British and European News Channels focuses on British/European News, I do prefer the British News Channels because they are heavily regulated to be none bias and balanced. Even so each British News Channel can still find ways of being subtly more pro or anti-government while staying within the law; mainly by choosing what stories they cover in the News Hour e.g. although both Channel 4 and the BBC are Government Corporations, Channel 4 is more maverick and will run news stories that are embarrassing to the government, while the BBC is establishment and will tend to omit to cover stories that are embarrassing to the government.
I also love browsing Euronews on Cable TV, partly because it covers news events from across the whole of the EU equally, but also because I find their ‘NO COMMENT’ refreshing.
The ‘No Comment’ slot, is where Euronews place a camera to film a major event e.g. a flood or a riot etc., and make no comments about it e.g. to leave it up to you, the viewer, to draw your own conclusion as to what is going on from what you see on camera.
Yup. That's how it works right now. Each state is issuing their own orders/rules.
Here in Puerto Rico, we've been under lockdown since March 15. We're also under a curfew from 9pm to 5am. Now it was extended, from March 31 to April 12. The curfew will be from 7pm to 5am. The rules are pretty much the same as yours.
We're faced with two problems. One as devastating as the other. I was listening to a doctor from Johns Hopkins who explained we should, once we hit the top of the curve, start having younger healthy people who are low risk get back to work, handling essential services and other services as the workforce capacity allows. Those higher risk should stay in self quarantine situation for longer.
It makes sense, on the surface.
Was Trump was right - about returning to work by Easter?
"The modeling estimates that the peak in death rate is likely to hit in two weeks. I will say it again. The peak, the highest point of death rates, remember this, is likely to hit in two weeks... Therefore, we will be extending our guidelines to April 30, to slow the spread," the president said in the White House Rose Garden.
Indeed, and I expect it will continue well beyond that.
One doesn't have to do much research to find that out.
China is still struggling with it, its as bad now as ever there.
And they always knew... they have been lying to the world.
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