The Reopening Of The Country Is At Hand

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  1. Sharlee01 profile image84
    Sharlee01posted 15 months ago

    I read each phase of Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx's plan to reopen the country. The plan is very clear and detailed.  At this point, it will be up to each Governor to choose to follow the plan or come up with their perhaps another plan that they might feel would be better for their state. I was pleased that the president left it up to the governor, yet he made the gesture of added Federal help if needed.

    I think the plan is good with leaving room for possible relapses. I am also so pleased that the doctors will be monitoring the reopening and beyond. It will be interesting to see how each Governor handles their states reopening.   So, what do you think about the Doctor's opening plans?  Do you think it will go well in your home state?



    https://hubstatic.com/14971128_f1024.jpg

    1. Ken Burgess profile image87
      Ken Burgessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      Its too late, the damage has been done.

      China has won... this will eventually lead to the collapse of the American dollar and the rise of the Yuan... it will take a while for the world to transition, but give China credit, they found a way of defeating the US without firing a shot.

      They deployed COVID-19 and the Western world panicked and shut everything down, that in turn collapsed the value of oil, which in turn will collapse the Petrodollar.

      With hindsight, it looks as if China knowingly sent people with the virus to major cities across the globe, NY, LA, Rome, Paris, etc. deliberately to spread it, the CCP knew how transferable it was and they knew how long an incubation period it had, and they hid this information from the world as long as they could, it was the perfect Bio Weapon to bring the Western nations to their knees.

      Even when Trump decided to close off travel to China, the WHO was arguing against his decision to do so... imagine if it had been up to the WHO... how long would travel to and from China continued, how much more severe would the spread of the virus been?

      The value of Oil just went well south of 0.00 a barrel (as in BELOW zero)  ... 22 Million people (counted so far) in America out of work.  Produce and Meat Industry losing tens of millions worth of meat and crops because slaughter and packaging and processing plants are shut down... America hasn't even begun to feel the pain of this pandemic yet.

      China has been at war with us for decades and as a nation we have been completely oblivious to it.

      Worse, the likes of the Clintons (whose very first Presidential campaign was funded by Chinese Businessmen making illegal contributions) and Bidens have sold this country out for a handful of gold coins.

      China has served a crippling blow to our economy, and a killing blow to the Petrodollar.  The changing of the guard is now inevitable, in a few years China will be directing global affairs and America will be subservient to its dictates.

      1. Randy Godwin profile image59
        Randy Godwinposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        And then the zombies appear....

        1. Ken Burgess profile image87
          Ken Burgessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          I wouldn't expect you to understand the global economic repercussions of these events, nor who is in a position to capitalize on them...

          Still... the ignorance of some, and their antics to try and belittle that which they cannot comprehend, never ceases to amaze.

          1. Randy Godwin profile image59
            Randy Godwinposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            And Trump sychophants never cease to amaze either, Ken.

          2. Schittbyrde profile image61
            Schittbyrdeposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            This 'You' that you (Meaning yourself, of course) mention, just who in the adult expletive might you be referring to? Are you, by any chance, referring to people who don't watch, and or believe fox news?
               Try looking around and deciding just how many, amongst your brethren, are part of this nation's ungodly amount of mouth breathers.

            1. GA Anderson profile image91
              GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              "Mouth breathers"

              In poker they would call that a 'Tell'

              GA

        2. Sharlee01 profile image84
          Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

          They are already here...

          1. Randy Godwin profile image59
            Randy Godwinposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Protect your brain then....

            1. Sharlee01 profile image84
              Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

              Randy, I don't have too. I never bought into selling out common sense. I see right through the confusion, and concentrate on facts.

              1. Randy Godwin profile image59
                Randy Godwinposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                Are you sure? Trump spreads lots of confusion and misinformation during his daily rallies on TV. I know I can't keep up with his lies...

                1. Sharlee01 profile image84
                  Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  I guess we look differently about what would consist of a lie. I note the Post added Trump's statement. "Jan. 22. “We have it totally under control"' Which many gave considered a lie. As of Jan 22 ...This is what Trump was aware of.

                  Jan. 11, 2020: China reports 1st novel coronavirus death

                  Chinese state media reports the first death from novel coronavirus, a 61-year-old man who had visited the live animal market in Wuhan.

                  Jan. 21, 2020: 1st confirmed case in the United States

                  A man in his 30s from Washington state, who traveled to Wuhan, is diagnosed with the novel coronavirus. Japan, South Korea, and Thailand also report their first cases one day prior.

                  As you see we had one case, no deaths as China had reported one death it well appears when Trump made the statement "We have it totally under control"... was very appropriate.  Context matters. When you are fed a statement you would check out what was going on when Trump made the statement. I have to add,  not sure how anyone can call an opinion statement a lie at any rate.

                  1. Randy Godwin profile image59
                    Randy Godwinposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                    It's no different than, "Mexico will pay for the wall." Was that simply an opinion as well? Or, "We stopped it." Or "It's a democratic and media hoax." All opinions?

                    Just how can you tell he's lying or telling the truth, Shar? I'd really like to know...

      2. Nathanville profile image93
        Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        I know you're prejudice against China, and bias towards Russia; but has it escaped your attention that Russia called for an oil price war during the Covid-19 crisis, boasting that they’re a “Great Energy Power.”, arguing that US shale oil companies would soon go bankrupt, and that Saudi Arabia had a bigger budget deficit and less international currency reserves than Russia, so Russia would beat Saudi Arabia too.

        It’s not China that has caused the USA oil to plummet to $0.00 a barrel, it’s Russia.

        1. Ken Burgess profile image87
          Ken Burgessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          I have nothing against China or Russia, I merely recognize what they are doing and present it.  If I were in control of Russia or China I would most likely be doing the same things... trying to elevate my country and my people at the expense of America and the EU.

          And Russia and China have a very strong alliance.  One of the strongest alliances in the world right now.

          Russia, China and several nations allied to them that have interests in common are now trading, banking and doing business in currency other than the dollar. 

          My #1 goal would be to derail the dollar as the World's reserve economy, if that can be achieved America's economic dominance would collapse, and once that goes, the military might would soon follow.

          My #2 goal would be to not provoke America into a conflict with my country, while trying to bleed America's military might out by having them tied down in conflicts with minor (and economically irrelevant to my needs) nations like Afghanistan, North Korea, ultimately even Iran is expendable, as Russia can provide China with all it needs of oil and natural gas.

          My #3 goal would be to convince America I am far weaker than I am, I would do this by showing what appears to be a significantly weaker and less capable military... as I know this is how America judges threats to its existence.  I would instead develop the technology and software to be able to destroy America by toppling its computer and satellite systems, if that can be accomplished the military might of America would be blind and useless.

          #1 is being accomplished as I type this, the Dollar is tied to the value of oil, and oil currently has no value... which means Petrodollar economics is about to be expunged by a significant portion of the world.

          A good portion of the world will turn to China, as China is producing almost everything being consumed in the world, certainly on the continents of Africa and Western Asia this is especially true.

          #2 and #3 are also in play, to what extent time will tell.

          1. Nathanville profile image93
            Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            You’ve made a well-reasoned case in defence of a conspiracy theory.  I don’t have time to reply now, but in the words of Arnold Schwarzenegger “I’ll be back”.

          2. Nathanville profile image93
            Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Ken, I do have criticisms of China, and I am aware of the ‘war of words’ between China and the USA (tit for tat); but America is just as much to blame as China is e.g. Trump’s persistent tweets of misinformation and insults of China.

            However, unlike China, who is trying to Westernise, Russia is very much anti-free world and an aggressor, and a constant threat towards the West.

            Therefore, where you say (in respect to China and Russia) “….trying to elevate [their country and people] at the expense of America and the EU”:-

            China is opening its markets up to World Trade, which is proving to be a great economic benefit to the UK and EU e.g. China doesn’t just sale their goods to the UK, the UK and the EU also exports to China, and UK and EU Companies also invests in China (good for our economies).  Examples include:-

            •    The UK’s desire to switch from fossil fuels to Renewable Energy has been greatly aided because China is a world leader in solar technology, and Britain has benefited from their Research and Development, and mass production of solar panels e.g. solar panels with greatly improved efficiency at significantly lower prices, which since 2016 has made energy production from solar panels in the UK cheaper than energy production from any fossil fuel. 

            •    China’s desire to switch from fossil fuels to Renewable Energy includes their desire for a ‘super grid’ nationwide energy grid based on the European Super Grid, a pan-European Energy Grid that can transfer electricity thousands of miles from where there are surpluses to meet demand where there are shortages e.g. the UK’s ability to send surplus wind energy to Spain, and Spain’s ability to send surplus solar energy to the UK; on demand.

            Consequently, a number of European Companies are in China, selling their expertise and technology e.g. exporting the technical equipment required for the Super grid and helping the Chinese to install it on their Super Grid.

            •    China’s and Europe’s joint desire to roll out electric cars to the masses to replace fossil fuel cars.  As with solar panels, China is a world leader in the technology of electric cars, while Europe is a world leader in the infrastructure for charging points for electric cars.  Consequently, each is helping the other to achieve a common goal more efficiently and cheaper than would otherwise be possible.

            In contrast Russia is very anti-west and would like nothing more than to see the West collapse and Communism spread throughout the world.

            Yes, Russia and China do have a strong alliance.  They are both Communist countries, so they share the same social ideology; but that doesn’t stop China’s desire to be pragmatic about their philosophy in order to forge strong relationships with other counties e.g. their ‘Silk Road’, which now extends all the way to the UK by train.

            The train that's made the 7,400-mile journey from China to London:  https://youtu.be/4Y9nfWXywMs

            But they are not the only strong alliance in the world right now e.g. the EU is strongest alliance in the Free World (The West); whereas the relationship between Europe and the USA is strained e.g. Trump’s Trade Wars with the EU because of his Nationalism.

            Reference your comment “Russia, China and several nations allied to them that have interests in common are now trading, banking and doing business in currency other than the dollar.”  For your information the EU and the UK Trade, Bank and do business in currencies other than the dollar; the only commodity in the UK that is linked to the dollar is ‘oil’.

            Reference your “My #1 goal”:   Yes Russia would love to derail the dollar and see America’s economic dominance collapse, and see the USA military weakened.  All that China desires is for its currency to be included in the Currency Basket.

            A weakened USA military would mean a weakened NATO, leaving Europe more exposed to Russian aggression. 

            American world economic dominance is already being weakened by Trump’s Nationalism e.g. persistent Trade wars with China and the EU.  Besides, America isn’t as dominant as it thinks it is anyway e.g. 50% of the UK’s Trade is with the EU, and only 15.5% with the USA.  Also, Trump pulling out of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) Trade Agreement hasn’t done the USA an favours e.g. the other countries, Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, Vietnam carried on (to their mutual benefit) without the USA.

            Reference your “My #2 goal”:   In all these disputes Russia has avoided direct conflict with the USA; and China hasn’t even been involved in them.   However, the flash point has been Syria where Russian troops and the Russian military are directly employed.  Russia has avoided direct conflict with the USA, but it hasn’t been so lucky with Turkey (a NATO Member) e.g. if Turkey got into direct conflict with Russia then the USA would be dragged into the conflict because Turkey is a NATO Member.

            But Turkey does not stand any nonsense from Russia, and will shoot down any Russian war plane that invades Turkey’s airspace, as happened a few years ago:-

            Russian jet shot down by Turkey:  https://youtu.be/cyhGOvsM4F0

            Currently to minimise direct military contact between Turkey and Russia, some of the Freedom Fighters in Syria who have attacked Russian bases in Syria are paid directly by the Turkey Military and are under the Turkey Military Command.

            Reference your “My #3 goal”:   China doesn’t get involved with military conflicts; Russia does (all the time); and all around the European borders, so in Europe we do know what a military threat Russia is.  And they are not shy about showing their military might either e.g. regularly buzzing European air space with Russian military aircraft; including the UK’s.  Currently, since the Covid-19 lockdown in the UK, tying up the British Military in keeping supply chains open, and assisting civilian services, Russia has deployed 7 of their warships around the coast of Brittan.

            9 Royal navy warships shadowing 7 Russian warships around UK coast during UK Covid-19 lockdown:- https://youtu.be/68oq4NNhjfU

            RAF and NATO intercept Russian Bombers heading for Scotland at start of Covid-19 crisis in UK: https://youtu.be/XL94g6AmiBY

            As regards the second half of your point; yes cyber warfare is a big problem in the UK, and once again, the vast majority of attacks come from Russia.

            As regards to the main thrust of your original thrust:  That China Made the Coronavirus in the LAB to Deliberately Infect America and the West; it is nothing more than another American Conspiracy Theory.

            China claim that the Coronavirus originated from a food market in Wuhan, where it jumped species from bats to humans.   It is a claim most scientists accept at face value as the most likely source because it is the most plausible valid explanation e.g. viruses do occasionally jump species, and the epicentre of the outbreak was in Wuhan where the food market is known to have illegally traded bats (food). 

            However, the concept that the virus accidently escaped from a lab researching diseases in bats in Wuhan, can’t be completely ruled out at this stage; and in that respect there is currently an international investigation into that prospect.  However, a virus accidently escaping a lab (the more likely) and a virus deliberately being released from the lab (highly improbable) are two different things. 

            For Americans who love ‘Conspiracy Theories’, then ‘Resident Evil’ is a film well worth watching – lol.

            I find it amazing on how many Americans love ‘Conspiracy Theories’, and are so gullible as to believe them.

            As regards this conspiracy theory, a recent survey (13th April) showed that 23% of Americans believe that China deliberately made the virus in a lab to deliberately infect America and the Free World. 

            In fact the survey is quite interesting:-

            •    43% of Americans believe the virus occurred naturally

            •    29% of Americans believe the virus was made in a Lab in China (6% thinking it escaped accidentally, and 23% thinking it was released deliberately).

            •    27% of Americans don’t know, and

            •    1% of Americans don’t believe that the virus even exists e.g. a Chinese hoax (I guess that’s the Michigan Protestors – lol).

            1. Ken Burgess profile image87
              Ken Burgessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              About  the virus, it has already been determined that the virus did not come from bats at a wet market, it may have come from bats that had been incubated with the virus in a lab, it may have come from a lab by accident, in the end it is irrelevant to what was done after it was released.

              The Chinese officials were aware of it in early November, they lied to the WHO and CDC about how contagious it was, they said they had it locked down while the WHO organization downplayed its severity.

              Two months later, the whole world was beginning to have people diagnosed with the virus.  If China had been open and truthful to the WHO and CDC travel could have been restricted, and the virus contained to China while they worked on creating a vaccine.

              Or simply put: China Lied and People Died.

              We have had discussions on China in the past, they are frustrating because you choose to ignore the evidence open and overwhelming to counter your "China is our friend" perspective its not even a debatable topic.

              The leader of the CCP Xi Jinping (the leader of all of China, its banks and its corporations) has stated matter-of-factly what China's plans are:

              “By 2050 China will become a global leader in terms of comprehensive national strength and international influence

              “Chinese people will enjoy greater happiness and well-being, and the Chinese nation will stand taller and firmer in the world.

              “China is approaching the centre of the world stage.

              “Right now both China and the world are in the midst of profound and complex changes.

              “China is still in an important period of strategic opportunity for development. The prospects are very bright, but the challenges are very severe.”

              Xi said the Communist Party will strive to fully transform the People’s Liberation Army into one the world’s top militaries by 2050 and emphasized the need to modernize its combat capability.

              He said: “A military is built to fight.”

              The president outlined his vision in a wide-ranging three hour speech at the start of the twice-a-decade Chinese Communist Party Congress.

              By 2030 lead the world in all things, 5G, AI, etc. by 2049 be the center of the world, its leader, the world's super power.

              Those are its goals, which conflict with America's position in the world, and its economic and military dominance. 






              https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/86 … -dominance

              https://www.axios.com/china-plan-global … 4894f.html

              https://www.forbes.com/sites/elizabethe … 11536e594a

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvXROXiIpvQ

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JovtmKFxi3c

              1. Nathanville profile image93
                Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                No, it has not been determined whether the virus did or did not come from bats at a wet market in Wuhan.  America has determined that the virus did not come from bats at a wet market, and China has been unable to provide no definitive proof linking the outbreak to the Wuhan wet market.

                There is a lot of misinformation, propaganda, fake news and conspiracy theories about the origin of the outbreak of the Coronavirus, most of it coming from America; and its America that is making the claims that it was released.

                That is why three days ago (19th April), it was announced that the UK, US and France are jointly investigating the origin of the coronavirus outbreak, considering all options; so nothing has been determined yet.

                Nobody denies that the Local Chinese Government in Hubei province tried a cover-up; it was a NEW disease that had no name, and nobody knew how infectious or deadly it was.  It would have taken time for Hubei province to recognise its seriousness e.g. we know from other countries that in the first three week, while the virus is silently spreading, that the death rate is LOW during that period.

                After the central Chinese Government in Beijing became aware of the situation they took over control and notified the world.   Although the actual origin of the virus is unknown at this point, a study of the first 41 cases of confirmed COVID-19 was published in January 2020 in The Lancet, who revealed the earliest date of onset of symptoms as 1 December 2019.  Human-to-human transmission of the virus was confirmed by the WHO and Chinese authorities by 20 January 2020.

                So it’s not a case of “China Lied and People Died”, it was a case of it was a NEW disease that took time for the Authorities (China and WHO) to recognise and understand.  But by the 20th January the world had notification; and some countries, like South Korea, were quick to respond to.  Other countries, like the UK and USA were slow to respond to; with dire consequences e.g. Trump’s initial reaction was to down play the seriousness of the situation in the USA, and the USA was slower at introducing Social-Distancing in March than the UK was, in spite of seeing what was happening in Europe.

                I do NOT ignore “evidence open and overwhelming” to counter my “China is our friend” perspective.  To start with virtually all the evidence you present is from right-wing American political sources that are known to be anti-China, and some of whom are known to fabric the news for their own propaganda purposes. 

                Secondly, China is NOT my friend.  I’ve never forgotten or forgiven them for the Tiananmen Square Massacre of 1989; and I am fully aware that they are prone to imprison political opponents, and that they have little respect for personal rights:  A Dictatorship.

                However, I do also recognise and acknowledge the good aspects of China e.g. their desire to switch from fossil fuels to Renewable Energy, and their pragmatic approach to westernising, plus the benefits to Global Trade that such a large Economic Market offers the world; which benefits the UK and EU economically as much as it benefits China.

                And I’d much rather see a communist country trying to integrate into the Western World, like China; than one that despises the Western world, like Russia.

                Yep, all the things that you list as China’s goals e.g. to become a global leader, for its people to enjoy greater happiness and well-being, to be part of the centre of the world stage etc., they are all the same goals and aspirations of the USA, UK and EU.  So What?  Are you saying that America should dominate the world, and no one else?  Britain used to Rule the Waves a hundred years ago; the USA has dominated the world since the 2nd world war.  China has the largest world population; the EU’s population is almost double that of the USA.  So what’s special about America that it thinks it should dominate the world stage?

                You summed it up in your last sentence “Those are its goals, which conflict with America's position in the world, and its economic and military dominance.”  E.g. America self-interest:  Europeans are NOT Americans, and so we don’t share the same American-self-interest that America shares.  To Europeans the USA has as many faults as China; neither are squeaky clean or Angels.

                1. Ken Burgess profile image87
                  Ken Burgessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  Well Nathan, rather than find additional information to support my position, even though some of the information I provided came from the mouth of Xi himself, let me extrapolate what I believe is going to occur.

                  War is coming, it will be between America & Australia & Saudi Arabia and any country that joins them VS. China & Russia & Iran and any country that joins them.

                  I believe we have crossed the line of going back because our economies and our supply lines for food and resources are now destabilizing, and simply put, we have reached the triggering point for the Thucydides Trap.

                  You can go back 500 years to see the triggering events of global wars, we are at such a time in history now.  Whether looking at the Anglo - Spanish War or WWI these wars occur when nations are competing for global dominance, when nations are competing for global resources, and when nations are in crisis (enter the current pandemic and the shut down of our economies).

                  Whether you realize it or not, China has always been at war with America, their goal is to supplant America on the world stage... peacefully if they could, if America would fade into the night and accept its lesser role in the world and a lesser economic standing... or by war if necessary.

                  America wins this war now... or it loses it a decade from now... the pandemic has just brought that choice to the forefront before China was quite ready to deal with it.

                  This is where I feel we are at... time will tell if I have judged things right.

                  1. Nathanville profile image93
                    Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                    Russia yes; they would love a world war:  If they thought they could win e.g. their desire to destabilise the West.

                    China might be rather pally with Russia because they share a similar Communist ethos, just as the UK has a so called ‘special relationship’ with the USA!  But China’s desire to be a major player on the world stage is focused on Trade not War.  China, after its huge investments in Trade Route e.g. the Silk roads to Europe, has too much to lose by war.  America doesn’t like China’s Trade expansion because the USA wants to ‘DOMINATE’ the world, and they see China as a threat to that Domination; in spite of the fact that the USA is currently going through a phase of Nationalism (Protectionism).

                    Being European I am fully aware of world wars that have plagued Europe for thousands of years.  In the past 70 years, since the formation of the EU, this is the first time that Europe has been at peace with itself.

                    This 5 minute video below graphically shows every one of the 10,624 battles listed on Wikipedia (by year); and quite entertaining to watch.

                    Time-lapse of Every Battle in History https://youtu.be/HK5OsDWYJmQ

                    FYI, historically, pandemics have NOT been a triggering event for world wars.   The Black Death that swept across Europe between 1347 and 1353 did NOT trigger major wars. 

                    You, like many Americans, have a gloomy ‘Doom and Gloom’ view of the future; I, like many European’s have a more positive view.  I’m sure it has a lot to do with our different cultures; but time will tell what the future holds.

                    BTW:  Arthur (not Nathan), albeit nothing to do with King Arthur.

      3. Sharlee01 profile image84
        Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

        Ken, You have summed it up very well. China has perpetrated one of the most horrendous crimes in the history of the world by unleashing this virus. It's clear China made every attempt to hide the outbreak of the virus, and continue to lie to this day about the numbers it killed in China.

        Our society has been so dumbed down that it has become a real problem.  I see the proof if this when I see a media able to sell comments the president has made that are clearly presented out of context. They don't question the statement, they blindly believe anything they are fed. They clearly ignore what he has accomplished, and cling to "he said this"...

        As if words are more important and should be listened too, while deeds should be ignored.  This is purely a mindset that gives way to," do what I tell you, and do not ask questions or look at my deeds... "
        This form of mindset is why we see such a divide in our society at this cultural time in our history.  We have those that use common sense and those that choose to totally ignore common sense. It well appears many have adopted the mindset that people that live with under communism, and they don't seem to be remotely aware of it.

        I find it rather sad, in this day and age of instant information, technology, the internet, and the incredibly vast network of information dissemination, that people who have access to all of this can still live under a rock, where painfully ignorant views continue to be held and, worse, espoused. It's a sad commentary on the lack of resourcefulness of those who ought to know better.

        1. Nathanville profile image93
          Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          The unfortunate thing of “….this day and age of instant information [on the] Internet…” is that too much of it is misinformation, political spin, politically biased, propaganda, and ‘fake’; and too many people don’t know how to ‘properly’ fact-check, or don’t bother ‘fact-checking’.

          In British Society ‘WORDS’ are ‘Important’, especially when an American President ‘Tells Lies about Britain’ (Fake News), and insults Britain, the British Parliament, Government, Prime Minister and leading British Politicians.  And then the Americans wonder why the overwhelming majority of Brits don’t like Trump.

          And it’s not as if the Media takes what he says out of context.  In Britain we actually see the words come out of his own mouth when he’s speaking live on TV.  In Britain, we see the actual Tweets, written by Trump; as he insults us and our Society.

          Just one of many examples in recent years where Trump has personally attacked Britain:-

          2017: Trump’s retreat of fake videos causes diplomatic tension between USA and UK Government: https://youtu.be/EQEoTjWv4cE

          2018:  London protests send clear message to Trump: You're not welcome:  https://youtu.be/I6L7CBhVvaY

          1. Sharlee01 profile image84
            Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

            There is no arguing that Trump's opinions can be shocking, and one can not say is has any fear expressing his opinions. I would think many in the UK might dislike Trump due to his abrasive personality. You must realize the UK is not the only country Trump has a problem with, in fact, his list is long.

            However, I believe if the UK were in need of anything, he would be first to stand up. As he did last week sending vents that the UK requested. he does not mince words or drag his feet if one needs help.

            1. Randy Godwin profile image59
              Randy Godwinposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              The rest of the world views Trump as a buffoon as well, Shar. Wonder why that is?  tongue

              1. Sharlee01 profile image84
                Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

                Not sure about that. I do know many leaders have had to withstand the embarrassment of him pointing out some unattractive facts about many things Trump found problematic.

                1. Randy Godwin profile image59
                  Randy Godwinposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  He's laughed at by many of them for some strange reason. Wonder why?

                  1. blueheron profile image94
                    blueheronposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                    Because we have so many trained monkeys around who think what the MSM tells them to think?

                2. Nathanville profile image93
                  Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  Sorry Sharlee, but Randy is right.  I can’t speak personally for the whole world, but I can for Europe, and Australia (where we have close relatives); and across Europe and in Australia Trump’s popularity is very low.

                  If you have any doubts, then I suggest you at least check out some of the Global Polls e.g. the YouGov opinion poll in the UK (One of UK’s most respected Opinion Pollster) in February 2020 put Trumps Popularity in the UK at just 18%, compared to Obama with a popularity rating of 74% in the UK:   https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ex … nald_Trump

                  Global Polls; aggregate median average of Trumps popularity worldwide in 2019 was just 29%, compared to Obama who has a popularity rating of 64%:-

                  The only two countries in the world (outside of the USA) where Trump is popular are just Russia and Israel.

                  1. Sharlee01 profile image84
                    Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

                    I am not much on polls. I will not argue your point that Trump may very well be disliked by many across the world. I don't think half of the people in America care in the least about what Trump's popularity standing is. Many of us care about what he is doing to make better trade deals, get out of useless world organizations, fix our broken immigration, and so much more.

                    Personality just does not cut it anymore. We had a guy with a really "cool personality". And that was about all he offered. It's all about agenda, problem-solving, and job performance in my book.  So, far I am very satisfied. I don't need a celebrity president, I need a president that solves problems.  Not sure why you would think Trump would be popular in Russia. There has been no other president that slammed Russia so hard with sanctions.

            2. Nathanville profile image93
              Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              FYI Trump’s claim’s about sending Venerators to the UK, and elsewhere is ‘fake news’ (for the benefit of the American Public).  American doesn’t even have enough ventilators for itself (last I heard); let alone the rest of the world.

              FYI British Industry has produced most of the additional ventilators the NHS required:  A consortium of British manufacturers, UK Universities and the NHS has worked together to meet the needs of the NHS; and 21 major British manufacturers are working together to manufacture them for the ventilators for the NHS.

              Unlike New York the UK has not been in crises over a shortage of ventilators, and the first British made ventilators from the consortium of British manufacturers, arrived in time to install into the new NHS Nightingale 4,000 bed Hospital built in just 10 days (the biggest hospital in the world), opened three weeks ago.

              https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 … rtium-head

              https://www.pesmedia.com/ventilator-cha … al-220420/

              One nurse's week at the NHS Nightingale coronavirus hospital:  https://youtu.be/H6pDcV2Lnno

              1. Sharlee01 profile image84
                Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

                No one in the entire US that needed a vent was not provided a vent.  Not sure where you would have gotten that idea.  We now have 10 thousand sitting in our Stockpiles and are at the point we can sell vents to other countries. Two of our Largest Automobile companies are producing vents at a very rapid rate to do just that. Many of the states that were provided vents during the crisis sent their vents to other states to aid in build state stockpiles.

                The president, as well as the VP, provided the vent production stats numbers on most daily COVID19 briefing. Yesterday the president did say they would be shipping 200 vents to the UK. Hopefully, if they don't need them they will pass them on to another country that might need them.

                In a press conference on April 8th, Trump did claim the UK requested 200 vents, and that he was going to work out it so they could receive them.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-_ytvjH9-0

                Trump built numerous hospital facilities in many states across America to handle any overflow of the patient if needed, most have remained empty. I in no respect meant for my comment to insult you or the UK.  I was just pointing out that we have had a good alliance with the UK. Perhaps this is not true or at least some feel it untrue.

                  To be honest, I never thought about or am I interested in how the UK has handled COVID19. I would think they are doing what all countries are doing to fight this virus... The very best they can.   At any rate, I have no interest in playing "we did this and you didn't"  back and forth game.

                1. Nathanville profile image93
                  Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  If you fact-check, by the end of March the UK had calculated that it would require an additional 18,000 ventilators by the end of April.  At that time it asked British Industry to manufacture most of them (from scratch), but also (to edge its bets) sought to obtain ventilators from established manufactures around the world, including an order it had placed with an American Company in late March for 200 ventilators; plus 300 from China.

                  Trump’s public speech to the American people on the 8th April made ‘political capital’ out of that:-

                  Firstly he said that “The UK called today and they wanted to know whether it would be possible to get 200, and we are going to work it out……..”  That was a lie e.g. he had nothing to do with it because they were pre-ordered in March with an American Manufacturer; and the order was placed two weeks earlier, not on the 8th April as Trump claims.

                  In the three weeks since then, with British manufacturers in full production; we now have far more ventilators than we need.  In fact with most of Europe now reaching or passing its peak in the outbreak, the world is quickly becoming awash with ventilators.  So there’s not going to be much of a market for American manufacturers rushing to produce them for exporting to other countries.

                  The shortages of ventilators in the USA seemed evident from the crisis in New York.  Plus with the USA edging towards ending Social Distancing prematurely (unlike the rest of the world), it’s quite probable that the USA will be heavily dependent on ventilators for some time to come.

                  I am grateful that you don’t wish to insult me or the UK, and I to think that ‘tit for tat’ arguments are counterproductive.  I’m not trying to have a dig at you by any means; it’s the fact that Trump persistently tells lies about the UK and insults the UK that greaves me and my fellow Brits; bad for PR (Public Relations).

                  The good alliance the UK has with the USA which you refer to is called “Special Relationship”; it was a phrase first coined by Winston Churchill in 1946.  Since then there has been a so called ‘Special Relationship” with:-

                  •    Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, and

                  •    Tony Blair (Labour Prime Minister) with Bill Clinton and George Bush

                  Although there is a close relationship between the USA and UK in a number of key areas, including security, critics do call the “Special Relationship” a myth.  Either way, since Trump has been President that “Special Relationship” (real or imagined) has been strained for a number of reasons, including:-

                  •    Trump hates the elected Mayor of London because he’s a Muslim (many insults by Trump directed at London, the London people, and the London Mayor).

                  •    Trump wants a Canadian Style Brexit, or Brexit with no Trade Deal with the EU, so that the UK can make a Trade Deal with the USA.  Consequently, he frequently insult Theresa May, and praised Boris, because her style of Brexit would have prohibited a Trade Deal with the USA, while Boris’s style of Brexit would allow for a Trade Deal with the USA.

                  In spite of that the relationship between Boris and Trump hasn’t been particular close since Boris has become Prime Minister because Boris hasn’t budged in the areas that Trump wants him to e.g. Boris is refusing to lower British Food Standards so that America can export food to the UK, and Boris is refusing to allow American Medical Insurance and Drug Companies buy into the NHS e.g. privatise it.

                  Part of this “Special Relationship” which the USA has a keen interest in maintaining is the sharing of data between NSA and GCHQ; the importance of which to the USA should be obvious from this video below:-

                  UK Spy Cable Revealed:  https://youtu.be/BN744Pcr3W4

                  As regards how the UK is handling the COVID-19 crisis:-

                  1.    We are the 5th worst affected country in the world, because Boris dithered for 10 days (allowing the virus to spread) before he finally ordered a complete lockdown of the UK, economy and people.

                  2.    The NHS has proved its worth, and its future is assured e.g. none of the problems that New York faced.  Ever since its creation by the Labour Government in 1948 the Conservative Party has despised it, and tried to undermine it, and under fund it because they saw it as ‘pure Socialism’.  But now that it has come of age during this crisis the Conservatives admire and praise it; and in future it will get the funding it needs, regardless to which Government is in power.

                  3.    The Police have been given ‘special powers’ for the duration of the ‘National State of Emergency’; and they are using it to keep everyone in their homes, other than for essential journeys.  The Police State in the UK isn’t anywhere near as tough as it is in Italy, but it’s a lot tougher than it is in the USA.

                  4.    Although everyone are locked in their homes, and have been for the past month, and likely to be for at least another month; the spirit and morale of the British people is high.  As high as it is in Italy and Spain, where citizens have been locked in their homes for two months now e.g. the European ‘wartime’ spirit.

                  1. Sharlee01 profile image84
                    Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

                    I am pleased to hear the people of the UK are keeping their spirits high. I will certainly take your word on how the UK acquired the vents that they needed and the fact that they acquired them through an order. 

                    I can once again assure you no one in America went without a vent or was turned away from a hospital. We have vacant newly constructed field hospitals sitting empty. The crisis is being handled differently in America, one must keep in mind we are a country of 334 million. It took great effort to gather all the PPE, Vents as well as hospital beds to handle a crisis of this nature.  I am an RN and volunteered to work during this crisis in one of our largest Detroit Metro hospitals. I can assure you all that presented were well cared for, even during the spike in patients. New York also met the challenge of caring for any and all in need.

                    I will accept your opinion about the president's misrepresenting how the UK acquired the vents. I have no way of proving his statement. It seems odd he would make up a call from a representative from the UK. However, if your government has claimed this to be a lie, I will take your word.

                    In regard to the failing alliance. Trump has certainly let it be known his agenda is America first. So, I can understand that you feel the UK  and American alliance has been damaged.  It clearly most likely has been. Many here are over and done with certain elements of globalization and are headed in a new direction.

          2. Ken Burgess profile image87
            Ken Burgessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Nathan, I was the NCOIC in charge of all communication coming from the SIPRnet to the 101st Division Commander in the EOC after 9/11.  If it came from the Pentagon or the 18th ABC or from the WH itself it came through me first, for months.

            I had boots on the ground in foreign lands during operations that don't even exist.

            I ran patrols along the DMZ and have seen firsthand the psychotic fanaticism of North Korean Special Forces.

            I did all those things before I hit the age of 30, two decades of additional experiences have only made me wiser and more understanding of what is going on in the world.

            Dismiss what I have to say when it comes to Foreign Affairs and International Conflicts if you like... but one thing I know better than you ever could... is how the American Government, Military, Intelligence and Media works.

            1. Nathanville profile image93
              Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              I don’t dismiss your views on foreign affairs and International Conflicts out of hand.  I do fact check your points and your sources; and all too often we come to different opinions. 

              My philosophy is that no one is ever 100% right (myself included); so I do frequently challenge my own views, and occasionally modify them.  The most classic example of that being that I was sceptical of Global Warming (Climate Change) back in 2012, but since I’ve recognised how serious it is, and ultimately, if the USA continues to dismiss it then USA’s inaction to fight Climate Change will have serious consequences for the rest of the world.

              I’m not as ignorant as you think I am either; I may not be familiar with the American Government, Military, Intelligence and Media; but being European and with my Government experience, I am very familiar on the workings of the British Government, military, Intelligence (MI5, MI6 & GCHQ) and the Media; and with Russia on our doorstep, very familiar with the real threat that Russia is to the West.

              This Might Put a Smile on Your Face!?
              GCHQ Audit: https://youtu.be/NnIe_rkLdbw

              And I am fully aware of the threat that, with a tin-pot Dictator, the threat that North Korea possess to the West, particularly America.

      4. CHRIS57 profile image59
        CHRIS57posted 15 months agoin reply to this

        Ken,
        I work for a German high tech company, which was bought by a Chinese investor 3 years ago. So i have close contact to Chinese partners.
        In early January news spread about a new virus in Wuhan. We had long discussions on the issue, especially because China every year has some kind of virus outbreak. This rigid lockdown appeared to be totally strange. Why?
        In our discussion it became very clear that inside China a political struggle was going on between local authorities and the central government. Red army troops moved into Hebei province,  commanded from Beijin and not from Wuhan.
        A good month later i noticed this jung Russian China expert Nikolai Vavilov:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nDIc7_8dVk
        https://south-insight.com/node/218407
        If you go through his statements he moreless confirms the internal struggle inside China and has something interesting to say about the power triangle China - Russia - USA.
        Ken, you seem to be spot on with you chain of arguments. At least this professional analysts comes to similar conclusions.

        A little remark: There are no conspiracy theories. There are only some people, who utilize incidents, catastrophies for their own purposes much faster than others and with a much wider strategic approach.

        China´s Xi Jinping seems to be this kind of a person.
        Trump is too much twitter tactics. Xi is running circles around T. on the geopolitical stage.
        Putin plays the natural resources card and tries to team up with Xi.
        The Corona virus has taken away all political firepower from Wallstreet. Where is Blackrock to invest, when you don´t even need a quarter to buy cruide oil?

        1. Ken Burgess profile image87
          Ken Burgessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Thank you for the reply and the links.

          It is a rather simple situation to understand, which is why it can be frustrating when debating it with those who see it from a flawed perspective.

          Some people try and say Russia is a serious threat to America, but it is not, because Russia will never be a country that will compete with America as an Industrial, Technologically Advanced Nation trying to supplant it on the Global Stage.

          Russia does not have the influence with enough of its neighbors, nor the population size to exploit, to become capable of usurping America's position.

          China does.

          China has leaped ahead of America in AI, Social Engineering, 5G, etc. it is collecting up trade alliances all across Africa (which is to China what China used to be for America 30 years ago, a cheap source of labor and materials) and western Asia.

          It is positioning to supplant America as the Global leader, as its reserve economy, as its Industrial and Technological power house.

          China wants to rule the world, China wants to be superior to all others in the world, and America and the EU had been happily going right along with it.

          And the Democrats/Globalists support this, interesting that Mr. Vavilov (?) discussed these and other points so matter of factly.

          He also recognizes the need to keep China as a strong ally, without it, Russia is in a terrible position and it would only be a matter of time before Russia became the next Venezuela, a failed state that is totally bankrupt.

          1. Randy Godwin profile image59
            Randy Godwinposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Indeed Ken, Putin wouldn't hurt a fly.....

          2. Nathanville profile image93
            Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            I think you miss the point Ken.

            Russia does not want a direct military conflict with the USA; I agree on that.

            But Russia is a military threat to Europe; and that is something that you don’t seem to be able to acknowledge.

  2. Live to Learn profile image79
    Live to Learnposted 15 months ago

    I have full faith the state leaders will do their best. Although I also know the arm chair pundits will complain and go on, ad nauseam, on how it should have been done. Using regurgitated ideas from media pundits.

    Just like we've witnessed here on Trump's response.

  3. profile image0
    PrettyPantherposted 15 months ago

    I have not read the plan in detail, but on the surface it seems reasonable. I trust my Oregon Governor to competently handle the situation.

    The Trump fans in my state are planning a mass protest at the state capital because they want to open up everything now. I think they will probably  inadvertently prove that not following social distancing recommendations is a bad idea.

    1. Live to Learn profile image79
      Live to Learnposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      Hmm. Trump fans. Are you positively certain all people considering protesting are Trump fans?

      I doubt it.

      1. profile image0
        PrettyPantherposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        All I can say is that every person I know who is going or supports it is a Trunp fan, but sure, there might be a few non Trump fans in there somewhere.

        1. Live to Learn profile image79
          Live to Learnposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Well, I suppose it's better to protest a lockdown than ignore it completely and run primaries endangering all involved.

          Individuals are protesting where a political party encouraged ignoring it.

  4. profile image0
    PrettyPantherposted 15 months ago

    lol, just saw this. I love how the protestors, who are protesting losing their freedoms, are too chicken to get out of their cars. Too funny!

    https://www.registerguard.com/news/2020 … at-capitol

    And there were dozens! You can't make this stuff up.

    1. Live to Learn profile image79
      Live to Learnposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      That's law abiding citizens. They protest within the limits of the law.

      1. profile image0
        PrettyPantherposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        Yes, I'm sure that's all there is to it.

      2. wilderness profile image96
        wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        LOL  Maybe they were all "Trump fans"! lol

        1. Sharlee01 profile image84
          Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

          You got that right...

      3. Sharlee01 profile image84
        Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

        Yes, the protest was peaceful, I live in Michigan and our local news reported it was well attended and peaceful. It did appear some were there to promote the second amendment. I received a letter from the organizers and they asked us to stay in our cars make noise, and keep it peaceful and respect safe distancing. I did not attend. I have been notified there will be another this week.

    2. Sharlee01 profile image84
      Sharlee01posted 15 months agoin reply to this

      The protest was organized by the Michigan Conservative Coalition and the organization asked that people stay in their cars to respect safe distancing. I received an email from them asking me to attend, and make sure to respect the safe disrancing by staying in my car. I did not attend. I did see on my local news there were many that did protest on foot and did not respect the wishes of the organizers. The protest was called Operation gridlock. Another is planned for this Wednesday. They have once again asked all to respect safe distancing.

      Our State police sad there were over 10 thousand cars and the protest was organized and peaceful. They expect there will be more attention this week. 

      The protest was planned to protest some of the Governor's strict guidelines for the period od the "lockdown".  Many were unreasonable and appeared to be illogical to many citizens of Michigan.  Our Governor was late to close casinos and found it necessary to leave liquor stores open in the state. This became a problem due to people congregation in and around Liquor stores. Many felt she left them open due to lotto revenue. She prevented sales of seeds and any form of gardening supplies, paint and lots more from stores like Home Depot. ( which has remained open) These are just a few of her orders that people objected to complying with.

      Michigan was once a very Democrat state that now is predominantly Republican.

      1. Misfit Chick profile image80
        Misfit Chickposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        Yeah, the first I heard about these protests, they were in Michigan - and the news (that I watch, anyway) was interviewing protestors who were talking about how strict some of their restrictions are. They sound pretty ridiculous. This virus started in Seattle and we have been on lockdown since early on - and I'm pretty sure, even this city full of liberals would have complained had things been that strict - especially for this long.

        I would imagine that governors in general, are too proud to ease up on them - that would be like giving in and 'giving up control' to people who are NOW turning more unreasonable. Because what may have started as some valid complaints has turned into a bunch of jerks complaining about how their freedoms are being trampled on.

        This is what is coming out, now: "If I get sick, that's my choice. If my neighbor gets sick, that's their's."

        BS!

        Because we all needed yet another reason to despise the free speech rantings of T-fans, apparently - at what cost this time? Damn, you are all really really HARD to love, lol!

  5. GA Anderson profile image91
    GA Andersonposted 15 months ago

    Maybe a little context might help paint a more accurate picture

    Multiple sources, both Left and Right-leaning, and the original organizers of the protest say it isn't about the concept of a "lock-down," or stay-at-home orders, but about particular aspects of the lock-down.

    For instance; it appears that some of the restrictions are hard to understand; you can go out in a canoe or kayak, but you can't go out in a motorboat. You can go to the Home Depot and buy hardware and lumber, but you can't buy grass seed.

    There were other restrictions that were being protested, but those two give you an idea of what prompted the protest. It doesn't appear to be the simple fact of having to abide by social distancing or stay-at-home rules.

    When I asked Google about the Michigan protest the above context was mentioned in almost every source. As was the organizers' stated purpose and guidelines for obeying the Governor's general social distancing orders.

    Perhaps those that stayed in their cars were trying to make that point? And the idiots standing in groups on the capital steps with their firearms in prominent display were just that—idiots.

    I like your thought about the irony of those latter folks possibly being the 'proof of the pudding' in the next few weeks.

    GA

    1. profile image0
      PrettyPantherposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      The organizers have their stated objectives, but I can guarantee you that the rank and file are grumbling about the loss of freedom at the hands of that commie, Godless Democrat Kate Brown.

      My husband bought grass seed at Bi-Mart a couple of days ago. Also, we took a drive up to Ben Irving Reservoir and saw multiple motorboats on the lake, but perhaps they were breaking the law.

      1. GA Anderson profile image91
        GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        I thought you lived in Oregon? If you live in Michigan—the comment topic I replied to, then your non-essential drive to the reservoir and grass seed purchase seems to be breaking the rules of the lock-down restrictions. 'Shame, shame' ;-)

        GA

        1. profile image0
          PrettyPantherposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          I beg to differ. ;-) Note bold. Not sure where you got the info on grass seed but it was in the store and the store was open.

          The Order includes the following provisions:
          All non-essential social and recreational gatherings of individuals are prohibited immediately, regardless of size, if a distance of at least six feet between individuals cannot be maintained. Gatherings of members of the same residential household are permitted.

          It closes and prohibits shopping at specific categories of retail businesses, for which close personal contact is difficult to avoid, such as arcades, barber shops, hair salons, gyms and fitness studios, skating rinks, theaters, and yoga studios.

          It requires businesses not closed by the order to implement social distancing policies in order to remain open, and requires workplaces to implement teleworking and work-at-home options when possible.

          It directs Oregonians to stay home whenever possible, while permitting activities outside the home when social distance is maintained. It closes playgrounds, sports courts, and skate parks, among other types of outdoor recreation facilities. Those that remain open are required to strictly adhere to social distancing guidelines.

          It outlines new guidelines for child care facilities, setting limits and rules on amounts of children allowed in care, and outlining that child care groups may not change participants.

          Failure to comply with the order will be considered an immediate danger to public health and subject to a Class C misdemeanor.

          https://www.govtech.com/em/emergency-bl … k-down.htm

          Edit: Sorry, I see now you are referring to Michigan while my original comment and link was about Oregon.

          1. GA Anderson profile image91
            GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Your"[edit]" clears things up.

            GA

    2. Nathanville profile image93
      Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      From across the pond, the mass protests (regardless to reason) in Michigan just seem so bizarre during a period of ‘lock-down’ because in the UK it is illegal to gather in groups of more than two people in public; unless it’s the immediate family, and even then if I decided to go with my wife and son in the car to the supermarket we would almost certainly be challenged by the police because we would be a group of more than two people.

      During the period of the ‘State of Emergency’ in the UK the ‘Police’ were given ‘Special Powers’, and Social Gathering was criminalised.  The penalty for a 1st Offence is £60, and then it doubles each time for subsequent offences e.g. £120 for 2nd Offence, £240 for 3rd Offence etc., and if you don’t pay the fine it’s a ‘Contempt of Court’ (automatic Prison Offence).

      So if people mass protested in the UK, like they are doing in Michigan, the police would break-up the protests and there would be mass arrests and fines imposed; and if needed the Army would be called in as support.

      And it’s not just in public, isolated incidences in the UK where neighbours have gathered together in back gardens to hold a BBQ have been broken up by the police, with fines being imposed.

      As regards the specific examples you give GA:-

      I don’t know about canoe, kayak and motorboats in the UK, but I would suspect they would be deemed illegal in the UK as they would be classified as a ‘non-essential’ journey e.g. it is permitted to visit a Park as part of your daily exercise in the UK, provided you Social Distance (keep 6 feet, 6 inches away from everyone else); but sitting down to have a picnic in a local park is frowned upon by the Authorities as it’s classified as a ‘non-essential’ journey.

      As regards ‘Home Depot’ (called DIY Stores in the UK), and buying grass seed (from Garden Centres in the UK).  All garden centres have been closed to the public in the UK because they have been classified as a non-essential service by the Government (so you can expect many Garden Centres going bankrupt this summer).  However, DIY Stores have been classified as an ‘Essential Service’ by the British Government; but they are not allowed to open their stores to ‘in-store’ shopping.  If you want to buy something from a DIY Store (which is what I am in the process of doing at the moment), you have to place your order on-line and either collect from a temporary designated collection point in the Store’s carpark (so that you don’t come into direct contact with store staff or other members of the public), known as ‘click and collect’ or have the goods delivered, which is the option I’m going for.

      Another Store, along with food stores (supermarkets) that has been classified as an ‘Essential Service’ by the British Government are ‘Off-Licences’ (known as Liquor stores in the USA); so I’m not quite sure what that says about the British drinking habits – lol.

      1. wilderness profile image96
        wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        LOL  The liquor stores are open in my area, too, as an essential service.  The rational I heard was that the profit goes to the state and the state needs money plus that alcoholics that can't get their liquor will clog the hospitals; hospitals that are needed for treatment of the virus.

        Using the second rationale it would seem that we should be handing out opioids, cocaine and meth. big_smile

        1. Nathanville profile image93
          Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          That sounds spot on, I'm sure there are Brits who wouldn't say no to some Weed (marijuana) to pass the time while locked down in their homes! lol.

          1. hard sun profile image84
            hard sunposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Weed is not even legal where I live. The ENTIRE neighborhood smells like pot when I go outside/take a walk during the COVID lockdown. Police don't care about marijuana, just the harder stuff. Funny.

            I think alcohol withdrawals are more dangerous than coke or meth.

            1. Nathanville profile image93
              Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              I’m not an expert on the subject; I wouldn’t even know what cannabis smells like (shows how ignorant I am on the subject).  It’s something the police are always hot on in the UK, so you don’t see much evidence of it in Society; although the Liberal Party would like to legalise it.

              In the UK, from 1928 to 2004 it had always been classified as a ‘Class B drug’ e.g. a lesser offence than a ‘Class A’ drug like heroin.

              From 2004 to 2009 the Labour Government downgraded it to a ‘Class C drug’ (minor offence); but they reclassified it as ‘Class B’ in 2009.

              However in 2017, under the ‘Ten Minute Rule’ cannabis was legalised by Parliament in the UK for Medicinal Purpose.   The ‘Ten Minute Rule’ is another quaint British Tradition.

              The way the ‘Ten Minute Rule’ works is that the first backbencher politician MP (from any political party, and who is not part of the Government) to arrive in Parliament on a Wednesday morning has the right to introduce his own ‘pet’ bill (Private Members Bill) to the House of Commons.  Then three weeks later that MP has 10 minutes to speak in favour of his ‘Bill’, and one other MP is allowed 10 minutes to speak against it.  Then the MPs in the House of Commons vote on it.  If such a Bill is passed by the House of Commons, which isn’t very likely, then the House of Lords may throw it out.

              So the odds of such Bills becoming law are very slim, only 60 (Private Members Bills) under the ‘Ten Minute Rule, since 1945 have ever become law.

              1. hard sun profile image84
                hard sunposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                "It’s something the police are always hot on in the UK, so you don’t see much evidence of it in Society; although the Liberal Party would like to legalise it."

                Ah...a reason to be proud of the good old USA. It will likely be legal federally here soon...behind some other countries but not behind the entire world at least.

                1. Nathanville profile image93
                  Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  Yes, it’s an interesting topic, and on whether it should be legal or not doesn’t seem to have any clear answers.

                  One area where Britain is more Liberal than the USA is on alcoholic drink.  In the UK it’s legal to:-

                  •    Buy your own drink and drink in pubic from the age of 18.

                  •    Drink beer, cider or wine in public from the age of 16, if someone over 18 buys the drink for you and you consume it while at a table with a meal.

                  •    And it’s even legal to drink any alcoholic drink in the privacy of your own home in the UK from the age of 5.

                  Being legal to drink alcohol at home from the age of 5 is based on a long established European practice of parents allowing their children to have a glass of wine at the dining table on special occasions e.g. to join in with the celebrations at Christmas, for birthdays, and anniversaries etc.

                  FYI Cider in the UK is not like the USA cider e.g. British cider is an alcohol made from fermenting apples, and generally cider in the UK is a lot more alcoholic than beer; especially Scrumpy.

                  Should You (in the UK) Let Your Kids Drink Over Christmas?  https://youtu.be/BbvgvFTkFUI

      2. GA Anderson profile image91
        GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        I don't think I could adjust to your British-style of government acceptance Arthur. For instance, what is the logic of 6'6" vs. just 6'?

        Thinking of having to estimate a 6-foot distance here in the U.S. seems reasonable, but your 6'6" conjures images of your 'Bobbies' running around with tape measures. No slight intended, but it is a funny mental image.

        Regarding the Michigan protest, I can accept the in-vehicle planned protest as a reasonable effort to speak to their government, but the yahoos that gathered in groups, (on foot), especially the gun-toting ones, should have their noses tweaked.

        To your point about more than two people in a car; what if you were a living group of four? You would be in close proximity to each other all the time in your home, but it would be a violation to be in that same condition in a car? Hell, even two in the car are violating your 6'6" rule.

        If the DIY stores in Micaghan were restricted to the rules you speak of for yours then I don't think the protesters would have viewed the 'grass seed & paint' restrictions as nuts, but their stores weren't restricted as yours were—the stores were open to customer traffic.  As such, that seems to me to be a nutty restriction.

        I have a lot of respect for British stoicism, but . . .

        GA

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          "Thinking of having to estimate a 6-foot distance here in the U.S. seems reasonable, but your 6'6" conjures images of your 'Bobbies' running around with tape measures."

          Don't be so provincial, GA!  2 meters is 6'6"; bobbies need carry only a 1 meter stick just as our cops need only a yard stick.  lol

          1. GA Anderson profile image91
            GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Damn, I forgot about the conversion factor, (but it's still a funny thought). I seem to recall an instance of a satellite programmer making the same mistake. ;-)

            GA

            1. wilderness profile image96
              wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              That's OK, GA.  We forgive you; extreme age brings senility which in turns brings forgetting how to measure things.  We love you anyway. big_smile

              1. GA Anderson profile image91
                GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                Yeah, they say your memory is the second thing to go. (I can't remember what the first thing was)

                GA

        2. Nathanville profile image93
          Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Yep, as wilderness said, we use metric in Europe, hence the 2 metres (6 feet, 6 inches).

          Yes the Government had to clarify their ‘more than two in public’ rule.  They would have been better off by saying what they meant in the first place rather than using “I Robot” type rules e.g. the second rule is ok if it doesn’t violate the first rule etc.

          What the Government meant, as clarified by them is that:-

          1st Rule (Social Distancing):  You should only be out in public on your own, and keep a distance of 2 metres from everyone else.

          2nd Rule:  But you can be out in public with someone else, if they live with you e.g. husband and wife (Social Gathering of no more than two people); but with the exception that if it’s family (other people you live with), such as children, then you can be out in larger groups.  But in practice, if you are in groups of more than two people, the police are likely to challenge you!

          The only place where it’s tricky not to risk social gathering is supermarkets, when buying food….. I’ll get back to that later, as I am being called to finish dinner off (finish cooking it) so that the family can sit down to our evening meal with a film.

          I’ll be back later……

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            "...rather than using “I Robot” type rules..."

            !!!  Don't tell me you're an Asimov fan!  I didn't think you guys even read the good doctor!

            1. Nathanville profile image93
              Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              Yep, we've got the 'I Robot' films on Blu-ray; I loved his books as a teenager.  I and my son are both avid Sci-Fi fans, with a wide range of taste in sci-fi genre from the classics (Star Trek), Cults ('V'), camp (Lost in Space), comedy (Red Dwarf) to the modern (His Dark Materials) etc.

              Currently, my son is keen for me to watch sci-fi films with him late at night, after my wife has gone to bed.  Something which we can't normally do together often because he's usually working most nights, or going out pub quizzing with his friends on his nights off.  But as he can't currently work (or go out) because of the lockdown its a golden opportunity to catch up on all those films and TV series that we don't normally get enough time to watch together.

              The first week of the lockdown we all watched the last series of 'The Game of Thrones'; my wife watched that as well, as it's one series she does like.  Last couple of week's my son and I have been watching the new 'Westworld' series.  And this week we're working our way through the 'Resident Evil' film series.

              1. Credence2 profile image80
                Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

                Hi Arthur, never had time to get back with you on this. From among the three science fiction greats; Heinlein, Asimov, and Arthur C. Clarke.
                , Clarke was my favorite.

                He was the writer and inspiration behind 2001: A Space Odyssey, a film that captivated my imagination when I was a kid and saw it for the first time. Just all the more confirming my passion for space travel. I had to read the novel to figure out what it was I was seeing in the film.

                "Lost in Space" novel in its TV debut in 1965, got pretty campy by its last year of 1967. They always crashed landed on earthlike planets where Ms. Robinson could dote over her vegetable garden.

                Star Trek, in its debut in 1966 was far more sophisticated and while it had a season of two years only, it developed one hell of a cult following.

                Which Star Trek series was your favorite?

                Original
                Next Generation
                DS Nine
                Voyager
                Enterprise
                Or the current version.

                1. Nathanville profile image93
                  Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  My favourite Star Trek series in order of preference are:-

                  1.    Enterprise
                  2.    Voyager
                  3.    DS Nine
                  4.    Next Generation
                  5.    Original
                  6.    Discovery, and
                  7.    Orville (inspired by Star Trek)

                  My son’s preference is slightly different e.g. he’s not as keen on Enterprise as I am, and rates the Discovery higher than I do; but we both love them all, and have most of the series on DVD or Blu-ray.

                  Although ‘Orville’ is an odd one for the Brits, because in Britain the word ‘Orville’ is strongly associated with a ‘duck’; so the name doesn’t seem quite so fitting for a Star Trekker type sci-fi.

                  Orville the Duck (an icon in Britain): https://youtu.be/teiA9rfV9G0

                  1. Credence2 profile image80
                    Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

                    Here were mine, Arthur

                    Enterprise: a technically excellent transition from our time to that of the Star Trek universe.

                    Next Generation

                    Original Series

                    Voyager

                    DS 9

                    Orville

                    Discovery- a bit too bizarre for me.

        3. Nathanville profile image93
          Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Hi GA, I got as far as ‘supermarket’ shopping before I had to sign off to do tea (evening meal).

          In the UK, food shopping is the only time of any risk of infringing ‘social distancing’ so to minimise the risk both the Government and supermarkets have issued guidance and conditions.

          The Government advice is to shop for essential items e.g. don’t shop just for luxury items, and to shop as infrequently as possible.

          As in Australia (where our cousins live), and in other countries across Europe; the supermarkets in the UK have imposed their own strict regime for shopping:-

          Prior to Covid-19 about 10% of supermarket sales was ‘Home Delivery’.  Economically viable for supermarkets because money they save on the cost of keeping in-store shelves stocked covers the cost of delivery, so provided you spent more than £50 you’d get the food delivered to your door either for a nominal fee or free.  My wife used them occasionally, in the weeks they were offering ‘free delivery’ e.g. saved the effort and time of physically driving to the local supermarket.

          However, since the lockdown demand for on-line deliveries has soared, as millions of Brits want ‘home delivery of food’, and thus overwhelmed the supermarkets home delivery services; making it nigh on impossible to get a delivery slot.  To try to ease the situation competitor supermarkets are now working together, to share resources e.g. share vans, stock and staff with each other as appropriate. 

          It seems to be working, because for the first time since the lockdown my wife finally managed to book a couple of delivery slots (one for next week from ASDA supermarket), and one that arrived at 10:30pm this evening in a ‘hot dog’ van for food that she ordered from the Morrisons supermarket.

          As regards making a visit to a supermarket, the supermarkets in the UK have marked queuing lines, 2 metres apart; in their carparks e.g. you line up outside, one person per line until the supermarket lets you in.  It was up to two persons per marked line e.g. family shopping together; but last week the supermarkets tightened up their rules to further strengthen social distancing. 

          When it’s your turn, the supermarkets let you in one person at a time, and once inside the supermarket you are meant to observe the social distancing and keep 2 metres away from other shoppers (described as 2 trolley lengths).  Supermarkets have installed protective screens at the tills to help minimise the risk to staff, and some supermarkets have drawn white lines at 2 metre intervals on the shop floor.

          Initially, British supermarkets limited sales to just 3 purchases per item, but earlier this week lifted that restriction on all but essential items e.g. milk, bread and eggs etc.

          Shopping for just non-essential items in the UK is prohibited; so a lot of people got caught out over Easter when then nipped to their local supermarket just to buy Easter eggs (a non-essential item), then got fined £60 by the police for making a non-essential journey.  Ironically, the police discouraging people from buying Easter Eggs resulted in some supermarkets having surplus stock that they couldn’t sale, so they donated them to children homes and the NHS.

          The one thing that has the ‘full’ public support in the UK is the supermarkets decision to priorities: NHS staff 1st, elderly 2nd, and everyone else last:-

          In the first hour that the supermarkets open in the mornings only NHS staff are allowed in to shop.  Then some supermarkets only allow the elderly in for the next hour; before they open their stores to everyone else.

          I truly appreciate your respect for British stoicism; something which I think is now deeply embedded into the British psyche from the 2nd world war (wartime spirit):  A trait I’ve seen surface on a number of occasions in Britain during times of crisis.

          Although I do admire the Italians, their lockdown is a lot tougher than Britain’s e.g. they’re not even allowed out to exercise; yet their spirits have remained high.

          Italian police clamp down as deaths rise: - https://youtu.be/rkeqcAuGP9o

          The Italians Making Music on Balconies Under Coronavirus Quarantine:- https://youtu.be/EBByYjjvNzs

  6. IslandBites profile image91
    IslandBitesposted 15 months ago

    https://ocdn.eu/pulscms-transforms/1/D-0k9ktTURBXy9lMGEyNzc4Zi01YTVjLTQxMTMtODM1ZC00OWI5ZjY1N2ZkN2EucG5nkpUCzQMUAMLDlQIAzQL4wsOBoTAB

    An anti-lockdown protest in Austin, Texas, drew anti-vaxxers and Trump supporters chanting 'Fire Fauci'

    https://ocdn.eu/pulscms-transforms/1/sPok9ktTURBXy9jNGQxNTk5Mi0zYjRkLTRkN2EtODA2Yy01ZDg0OWEzODdiYTQucG5nkZMFzQMUzQG8gaEwAQ
    Austin's "You Can't Close America" protest

    Jax Weaver, 33, an out-of-work Austin photographer who went to the protest with her 7-year-old daughter. “I’m not worried about catching the virus,” Ms. Weaver said. “If we did catch the virus, I feel that we’re healthy enough to fight it. And I think it would help us build immunity.”

    Dave Litrell, 46, held his 6-year-old daughter as those surrounding him chanted to reopen the American economy outside the State Capitol building in downtown Austin.

    “I don’t fear a potential pathogen,” he said. “I think there’s potential pathogens around us all the time, and for the most part, we’re healthy.”

    A group of children held up their homemade sign — “Open our school: Education is a God-given right” — while others waved placards reading “Shut down the shutdown.” Nicole Adkins, 37, a stay-at-home mother and Army veteran who lives near San Antonio, held a sign that said “Flatten the Fear.”

    Some shook hands. Others hugged. More than a hundred people rubbed elbows and shoulders, their signs and flags touching, many with their faces unmasked.

    The rally was organized by Owen Shroyer, the host of a show on Infowars, which is headquartered in Austin and traffics in conspiracy theories. Infowars, described the spread of the virus as a “Chi-Comm globalist bioweapons attack,” a reference to the Chinese Communist Party. “America knows it’s a hoax,” Mr. Jones said of the pandemic.

    Fire Fauci Chants

    1. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      The world is full of idiots, isn't it?

      1. IslandBites profile image91
        IslandBitesposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        Yes it is. I hope those babies don't get sick. mad

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Or their grandparents when Mom and Dad return home, infected and not realizing it.  After all, don't you know, exposure has given them immunity! sad

      2. blueheron profile image94
        blueheronposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        As far as I can tell around here, there is no such thing as covid. Our county has had 30 cases and one death. The one guy who died was in hospice care.

        I know of exactly zero people who either are ill or have been ill in my county. In serious past flu seasons, literally everyone I knew was sick or had been sick, and sometimes the schools were half empty because so many kids were out sick.

        I do know a total of five people in other parts of the country who had some kind of bug that they think might have been covid. Of those five, one was tested and was positive. She is a nurse who had been assigned to work with covid patients in the hospital.

        Around here, covid looks like "the flu that doesn't kill anybody" or even make anybody sick.

        The hospitals here are empty and are laying people off. I have family members who work in health care who keep me informed on these matters. One family member has been considering volunteering for one of the expected layoffs, as she has been offered a job in NYC working with covid. (The pay for this "traveling job" is rather impressive.) But she is concerned because they will guarantee her only a two-week assignment, and she is doubtful about getting her old job back upon her return, because the continuing expectation of layoffs in health care. In fact, she is worried that the hospital that currently employs her could go bankrupt. It is a very real possibility that many, many hospitals will close due to lack of patients.

        That's what's going on here on the ground: no covid, no dearth of hospital beds or respirators. I am so frightened that I have considered buying a box of Kleenex.

    2. Credence2 profile image80
      Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

      It is easy to see that the stupid protests and attitudes are associated with Trump supporters, and it is not a coincidence. I just had no idea that there were so many.

      The Rightwinger is never the sharpest knife in the drawer.

      Imagine people saying that because they are healthy there is no real threat? If they would give any credence to science it was made clear that you could well have been infected, yet be asymptomatic for days. In the meantime you could be a source of  infection and risk to others.

      How stupid and selfish!!  It that is OK, let them do their thing, it has got to result in fewer Trump voters this fall.

      1. wilderness profile image96
        wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        Well of course it is!  After all, two carefully chosen signs are a complete vindication of the idea that everyone there is a Trump supporter.  Besides, Trump and anyone agreeing with any of his actions is stupid, right?

        1. Credence2 profile image80
          Credence2posted 15 months agoin reply to this

          https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/ … -lockdowns

          https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ … strictions

          Alright, Wilderness.

          Do you have journalism evidence available that supports your view?

          Trying to tell me now, that this is not just another trashy right wing protest movement?

          Rightwing supporter=Pro Trump

      2. blueheron profile image94
        blueheronposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        I don't suppose you realize that liberals own this disastrous policy. Nor do you realize the strength of the opposition to it, or the depth of the anger.

        One way I know this is because I've spoken out against it and have received several messages from people who tell me that they agree, but they feel they can't speak out. Sometimes it's because they teach in the local school district and it could cost them their jobs. Some are local business owners who avoid taking public political positions for business reasons. Some are people whose livelihoods depend on the goodwill of the whole community or who have leadership positions in area churches and don't want to contribute to tearing apart their churches or other community organizations.

        The backlash (if I may take the liberty of prognosticating) will deal the Democrats staggering blow at election time.

  7. IslandBites profile image91
    IslandBitesposted 15 months ago

    https://scontent.fsig3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/93994258_10159743083329573_2387914143408586752_o.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=gfXNyQYh3FYAX84TdWa&_nc_ht=scontent.fsig3-1.fna&oh=061a6230b90818a94c6860df1d03622e&oe=5EC2F6A6

    https://scontent.fsig3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/93885243_10159743083284573_2432895795461095424_o.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=HLvNLrqTUIoAX_xsXr6&_nc_ht=scontent.fsig3-1.fna&oh=e89decb0a29ba271c01ca904f679b303&oe=5EC163D4

    https://scontent.fsig3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/93939762_10159743084279573_8558828265588916224_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=U84cHRKH2GEAX9p1DcD&_nc_ht=scontent.fsig3-1.fna&oh=0a7c7bbf33c3bc6510559c8aa75244cc&oe=5EC50294

    Health care workers stand in the street in counter-protest to hundreds of people who gathered at the State Capitol to demand the stay-at-home order be lifted in Denver

  8. Credence2 profile image80
    Credence2posted 15 months ago

    I have been a bit behind, surely Trump did not say that people should inject themselves with disinfectant that kills germs on the surface of things. I saw this warning from Lysol discouraging people from this approach, as if they would be dumb enough to believe Dr. Trump at his word.

    They say Biden is nuts, buthow can anyone suggest a medical remedy and approach that is so ridiculous? His handlers need to get this Trump fellow back into his muzzle. After the malaria drug fiasco, this is strike 2.

    1. profile image0
      PrettyPantherposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      Biden is not nuts. At most, he is experiencing  some age-related difficulties getting his words out. Trump, however, actually is mentally ill. Any normal person who is in charge during a crisis would not speak off the cuff at  a press conference about matters that require specialized expertise. He is a narcissist, though, and truly believes he can offer brilliant insight or innovative thinking, but all he does is appear incredibly stupid and foolish.

  9. profile image0
    PrettyPantherposted 15 months ago

    May I remind everyone that the post to which Sharlee responded with such offense was from Islandbites and all she did was quote Sharlee's own words, to show that she initially minimized the coronavirus crisis in a manner similar to her hero Trump.

    You all know IB is not one to insult people, and she didn't in this case, either. All she dud was prove Shar wrong and that, apparently, offended Shar enough that she did the forum "flounce."

    I'm nit saying insults done happen. They certainly do but Shar flings her share as is evidenced by her multiple instances of being banned. This particular flounce is actually pretty funny because it is exactly like her man Trump to get huffy when someone exposes his mistakes.

    Whatever, I always say the faint of heart should stay away from debate forums, and getting insulted by having your own words bite you in the @ss is pretty darn touchy.

    Shar, it's not that  big of a deal. What will Randy do without you to spar with? wink

  10. Nathanville profile image93
    Nathanvilleposted 15 months ago

    The Perspective View of the USA from Across the Pond:-

    As I watch the daily news from the UK the impression given of the USA is that it is in panic and chaos, and rapidly nose diving towards disaster to become a third rate country rather than centre stage in the world; just like the UK did when it lost its grip on the British Empire over a century ago!

    Of course that perspective maybe due to CNN’s reporting style (the only American news channel on British cable TV), and the fact that I don’t live in the USA and therefore can’t experience it first-hand.   Hence, I’m curious on what the American perspective is on where the USA is heading, and how well or badly it’s handling that path into the future?

    The things I notice from afar (across the pond)  is that:-

    •    Unemployment has risen in the USA by 26.4 million over the past 5 weeks,
    •    While unemployment in the UK has risen by just 1.4 million over the same period.

    Some of the States in the USA are easing their restrictions too soon and by too much e.g. Californians flocking to beaches, with the real risk of allowing the uncontrolled spread of the coronavirus throughout California, and onto the neighbouring States if the California borders with those States are not closed.   We’ll get a better idea of whether California and other States who are easing their restrictions have acted rashly or not by the end of May.

    Other countries, who have been in lockdown far longer than the UK and USA e.g. Wuhan, Italy, Spain and Germany etc., are tentatively easing some restrictions, but not to the extent of American States.

    China’s economy has started to grow again, so one major British manufacturer who exports to China is making preparation to re-open (to 80% capacity) mid-May, and will be operating in accordance with Government Rules on ‘Social Distancing’.

    South Korea (to the best of my knowledge) was the only country in the world to clamp down hard and clamp down fast to fight covid-19, so they avoided the epidemic and their economy is relatively unaffected. 

    The UK is in no hurry, as its current policy is ‘wait and see’ policy e.g. wait to see how other countries ease their restrictions, and how successful or otherwise that easing is, and what mistakes those other countries make; before the UK tentatively ease restrictions, learning from the  mistakes of others.

    So it may be that with a more cautious approach, European countries will emerge sooner and stronger economically than the USA, pushing the USA into a less major role on the world stage; if the USA does a ‘crash and burn’ through hasty uncoordinated action?

    Nobody knows at this point; but maybe in a months’ time we may get a better picture which nations are faring better because they made better choices in handling the epidemic and their emergence from it?

    As regards public opinion; the latest opinion polls in the UK show that the British Public still fully support the Government’s lockdown policies, and are more worried that the Government might be tempted to ease the restrictions prematurely, than they are about the prospect that Britain could remain under tight restrictions for the remainder of the year.

    In the UK, the Local Government elections, and Mayoral elections, which were due to take place in May have been cancelled until further notice.  Do you think the Presidential election could or should be postponed if the USA is still gripped with the pandemic in the autumn?

    I guess the American perspective is different?

  11. blueheron profile image94
    blueheronposted 15 months ago

    What strikes me as odd about this virus is that it doesn't seem to have a real existence in the county where I live. I know NO ONE (in this county) who is sick or who even has been sick. During the flu season of 2017-18, literally everyone I knew was sick or had been sick with the flu, and much of my Facebook feed consisted of people complaining of illness and asking for good home treatments.

    My county has a population of 34,618. Our county health department reports 35 cases and ONE death, and this was of an elderly man in hospice care. This gives us a death rate, vis-a-vis the entire population, of 0.1%.(Although, frankly, it rather seems to me that it is perhaps not appropriate to count a person in hospice care as a covid death.)

    But I guess we are hard-hit compared to the rest of the state. Missouri has a population of 6.1 million, and we have had 274 deaths, giving a death rate of 0.0045%--putting your chances of dying at less than 200th of one percent, or about on in 20,000.

    In most of the US, fully half of all deaths are of residents of nursing homes. Most of the remaining deaths are, as is well known, of elderly people with one or more co-morbidities. Quite a few among these are people who are known in the health care trade as "frequent flyers"--people who have been in and out of the ER and ICU on a revolving door basis for some time.

    If you are under the age of 70, your chances of dying of covid are 0.0013%, or about one in 60,000.

    To put this in perspective, the nearest good-size city to me has a population of about 54,000. Statistically, it is fairly likely that there will be ONE covid death among the residents of that city--with an even chance that that person will be a nursing home resident, and a more than even chance that that person will be over 70, with one or more co-morbidities.

    I am puzzled that anyone thinks we even have an epidemic. I see no sign of it, and, statistically, it seems to me that there is no basis for it.

    1. GA Anderson profile image91
      GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      Your logic seems skewed to me Blueheron. You are saying that you don't see an epidemic because your county hasn't been hard hit by it . . . what about New York, do you see epidemic proportions of infections there?

      Also, shouldn't your calculated death rate be based on infected persons and not total populations?

      GA

  12. GA Anderson profile image91
    GA Andersonposted 15 months ago

    My opposition was to the act of belittling. That Trump supporters were the target of that act is secondary and was not a part of my comments.

    Your mention of "irony" seems to imply that I am okay with some folks doing it but not others. I don't understand where that comes from. Have you seen me support or approve of it when someone not of Randy's bias does it?

    Assuming your "they" means folks of the 'Right', I don't know if they value it or not. I only spoke to my thoughts on it. And your last statement doesn't make sense to me. It reads as if you are saying the receiver of an inferior act should admire the giver and I don't see that logic at all.

    GA

    1. crankalicious profile image94
      crankaliciousposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      My point is that Trump is admired for belittling others, but then when Trump supporters are subjected to it themselves, they don't seem to like it.

      I was speaking to the general theme of the discussion and not your particular opinion because, to my knowledge, you have never belittled anyone.

      1. Randy Godwin profile image59
        Randy Godwinposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        In other words, Trump and his supporters can dish it out, but they don't want to take it. Their indignance is hilarious! lol

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Much like the hypocrisy of damning such an action...and promptly engaging in it, right? lol

          1. Randy Godwin profile image59
            Randy Godwinposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            There has never been a person as POTUS worth "damning" until you helped place Trump in his present position. Be very proud and somewhat responsible for his many lies and unworthy arrogance. He was like this before he became POTUS as you were well aware he wouldn't get any better.

            I would damn any world leader, no matter what party or country they represented, if they acted like your choice of leader. I've damned Hitler many times in my life, have you?

      2. GA Anderson profile image91
        GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        I see your point now, and I can agree that there are some Trump supporters that may "admire" his actions. But the ones that do have character issues of their own, (just my opinion of course).

        GA

  13. blueheron profile image94
    blueheronposted 15 months ago

    GA, this is just the data for the state of Missouri, which I think speaks for itself. This is how many people who have died, per capita. (Hardly any.)

    The death rate based on the number of infected persons will probably always be largely an unknown. One reason for this is the faultiness of the tests, and another is the many, many reports that the cause of death is often incorrectly (read "fraudulently) attributed to covid. Hospitals are paid (if I remember the figures right) $13,000 to treat patients who test positive for covid, and $39,000 for patients with covid placed on ventilators. 

    Determining the true infection rate would require serological testing of a decent sample of the population. This has been done in some places. I have seen  reports that, in some places, the percentage of people who test positive for antibodies is as high as 40%. It is believed that the "silent attack" rate--that is, the percentage of people who acquire asymptomatic cases of covid is around 50%.

    I am thinking that extensive serological testing for antibodies would collapse the whole narrative.

    1. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      I would question that "many, many" cases of fraudulent reporting.  While I'm beginning to see quite a few statements and memes on FB making that claim, I have yet to see a single, verified, report that it is happening.  While I don't doubt that it is happening, at this point I have to change that "many, many" to a tiny handful of the total.

      Likewise, I tend to think that there are a lot of people out there with antibodies (they've contracted the disease) that we never heard about.  But, again, that 50% figure is extremely suspect although I have little doubt it will reach that one day.  Three months just seems an incredibly short period of time to infect 150,000,000 people, doubly so with the efforts being made to contain it.

      But even if that 50% is correct, it still means that your fatality rate is double what you are using when you calculate based on the entire population.

      1. blueheron profile image94
        blueheronposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        Well, as I mentioned, we have had only one death in our county, and it was of a guy who was already in hospice care. Hospice care is for people who near death--as in, within days or weeks. (I think there is a protocol for hospice care, that there is a near-certain expectation of death within a specified short period of time.) They are receiving only palliative care. There is no hope. So, rather obviously, the real cause of this elderly man's death was whatever landed him in hospice care. The people I've known who have been placed in hospice care were dying of either cancer or stroke.

        Apparently the gentleman contracted covid while in hospice care, possibly from a visiting friend or relative, although the odds would suggest that it was from a home health-care worker, since these people are much more likely to have been in contact with someone who was infected. His death from his underlying condition was probably hastened by a few days, due to contracting covid.

        To attribute this death to covid is a bit sketchy, to say the least. I would personally consider it fraudulent to attribute his death to covid.

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Technically it may be correct (he died of Covid), but I'm with you.  In practical terms it is fraudulent to attribute his death to the virus.

      2. blueheron profile image94
        blueheronposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        The 50% "silent attack" is derived the statistics aboard the Diamond Princess, and it refers to the percentage of people who have had covid but were asymptomtic. It does not mean that 50% of the US population is sero-positive for covid. In populations were large numbers of people have been serologically tested, the sero-positive percentages are rather high--but all over the place. If I remember right, they range from 13%-40%.

        This rate of sero-positivity in a sample from a particular population suggests that the virus may have been around much longer than is generally believed, and/or reinforces the view that there is a very high "silent attack" (asymptomatic) rate.

      3. blueheron profile image94
        blueheronposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        As far as there being no "verified" reports that deaths are being fraudulently attributed to covid, you have to ask yourself, who would verify it? If one of your friends or relatives died, and you were well aware that they had congestive heart failure, but the death certificate said covid, how would you go about verifying that it was or was not covid?

        One of my neighbors recently died of a longstanding congestive heart failure condition. Admittedly, it was aggravated by the fact that, after being released from the hospital in a stabilized condition, he did a bag of meth.

        Attribution of the proximate cause of death is often not a simple matter. When a diabetic dies of kidney failure, will the death be attributed to diabetes or to kidney failure? If of sepsis, will it be attributed to diabetes or sepsis?

        The CDC recently INSTRUCTED hospitals to list the cause of death as covid, even without a positive test, and if the cause of death was merely ASSUMED to be covid. These direct instructions, coupled with the large financial incentives to diagnose covid, are certainly designed to encourage hospitals to exaggerate these figures.

  14. blueheron profile image94
    blueheronposted 15 months ago

    GA, I know it sounds bizarre, but, if you look at the actual data, it IS bizarre. You might want to pull up health department statistics for your own state and see what you come up with.

  15. blueheron profile image94
    blueheronposted 15 months ago

    GA, I often feel like we are living a new iteration of H.G. Well's broadcast of  "The War of the Worlds," and people think I'm lacking in sensibility, or crazy, or whatnot, for being skeptical that space aliens are attacking us.

    It also seems strange to me that, given the government's and media's history of lying to the populace, that people are not automatically skeptical.

    1. GA Anderson profile image91
      GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      I am generally very skeptical of government and media proclamations, but I do not see this pandemic event as a possible "War of the Worlds" scenario.

      I think there are just too many sources and too much evidence—worldwide, that this coronavirus spread is a true pandemic.

      But . . . that thought does not mean that I swallow everything claimed about it. For instance; the talk about the death rate gives the impression of an across-the-spectrum danger. But the evidence I have seen generally accepted is that it is two high-risk groups that are truly in danger—senior citizens and folks that are already health-compromised. Which means it may be possible that COVID-19 could be comparable to the flu virus in that for most folks it is a passing thing that our bodies adapt to, but for those other two groups it, (the flu), can also be a deadly thing.

      It seems to me ignoring this is a source for the near-hysteria about total lock-down and isolation. But that is just a thought. *shrug

      GA

      1. wilderness profile image96
        wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        With this I agree.  There is zero doubt that there is a pandemic going on.  The fatality rate has been grossly exaggerated, however, as has other facets of the problem ("needs" for ventilators, for example, when there were, and are, sufficient already on hand).

        1. Randy Godwin profile image59
          Randy Godwinposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          I believe if the stay at home orders weren't in place, the death rates would not have been "grossly exaggerated, but we may never know unless reopening the country at this point is a mistake. Time will tell...

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Well, my opinion on the death rate is predicated on my opinion that there are far more cases of infection than being reported.  Yes, time will tell, at least to some point for we will never be able to test every person in the country for antibodies.  And if we could there would still be the question of just when they obtained those antibodies.

          2. blueheron profile image94
            blueheronposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            The death rates, even "grossly exaggerated," are vanishingly small.

            And while it is moderately interesting to hear of events that happened in your head, or you think might of happened in your head, these are of little relevance.

            1. crankalicious profile image94
              crankaliciousposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              So is your solution: "let's just go back to how it was and let the chips fall where they may"?

              Without social distancing and improved cleanliness, everyone in America will end up contracting the virus. I suppose at what is most likely a death rate of .6% to .8%, that's not too bad.

              1. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                With any vaccine being a year or more off, I would expect the infection rate in America to be over 50%, perhaps as high as 80% in the coming months or years.

                But, among the unvaccinated people, isn't that reasonable for the flu as well?  I know that when we had kids at home, and were not vaccinated, we could expect to get sick each winter from the flu.  And this one seems even more infections and easy to get.

                1. crankalicious profile image94
                  crankaliciousposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  As you've pointed out, we have a vaccine for the flu.

                  Interestingly, prior to having kids, I never got the flu vaccine and, to my knowledge, have never had the flu.

                  There are numerous over-the-counter, natural substances that help the immune system. One I swear by is Elderberry.

                  Watching the news, I'm not sure Americans can even abide by stay-at-home orders or wear masks for more than a month. Look at the California beaches. Just crazy.

                  In fact, maybe we should just give up because those of us who will or can follow the guidelines are just going to be overrun by those who won't.

                  1. IslandBites profile image91
                    IslandBitesposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                    We had Influenza + Mycoplasma twice last year. First in October, then in Dec. Because I'm asthmatic and immunosuppressed, I was FU for about a month each time. The second time I got Tamiflu and helped a lot. But Mycoplasma is hell.

                    (I've had mycoplasma before... About a month, every time. A couple times got me hospitalized.)

            2. Randy Godwin profile image59
              Randy Godwinposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              "The death rates, even "grossly exaggerated," are vanishingly small."

              "vanishingly small?" What the heck does this even mean? Or is it simply a Trumpism?

            3. CHRIS57 profile image59
              CHRIS57posted 15 months agoin reply to this

              Please be careful about "vanishingly small".

              Natural mortality is related to average life expectancy. If people get 80 years old in average, then this is a mortality of 1,25% (100%/80).

              Currently nationwide Corona death rate (past 7 days) was 20% above said 1,25%. That may be only 0,25%, but i could also say: Average life expectancy has gone down to some 55 years due to Corona. Still to be neglected?

              1. blueheron profile image94
                blueheronposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                I think your math is a bit off. (Nonsensical would be more apt.) I would also like to see a link on your claim that life expectancy had gone down to 55 due to covid.

                1. Randy Godwin profile image59
                  Randy Godwinposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  So...what does "vanishingly small" mean, Vile? Infinitesimal?

                2. CHRIS57 profile image59
                  CHRIS57posted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  bluereron, thought you would answer if i put the 55 in.
                  First part of my statistics is correct. The US as a whole has a death rate some 18 to 20% above natural death rate. Of course that does not mean that average life expectancy is now 55 years. But numbers are not vanishingly small.
                  In these Corona times to die from the virus is more probable than to die in a traffic accident. So - do we have rules for traffic? If numbers were neglectably small for traffic, then why put up with traffic lights, speed limits, right of way? What would that be good for? Traffic is even less dangerous than Covid19.

                  There is always discussion about Corona death cases.
                  - Do people die FROM Corona?
                  - Do people die WITH Corona?
                  - Do people die BECAUSE of Corona?

                  FROM: clear picture, lung failure, people drown, Covid19 positive
                  WITH: Immune system alread compromized, multiple organ failure, not necessarily lungs affected, Covid19 positive
                  BECAUSE: Scheduled surgery could not take place, heart attacks, strokes, people die, because they are afraid to go to hospitals or are simply not admitted. Covid19 negative.

                  Total surplus death rate in these weeks is a sum of all 3 causes. Not very much is known yet. So it is up to you to make one of the causes "vanishingly small".

          3. GA Anderson profile image91
            GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            If by "grossly exaggerated" you mean the death rate would be higher, I agree. I think the stay-at-home and social distancing did have an effect and buy us some time. But, I do not think those actions are feasible as an end-game strategy. The government can't print enough money to keep people's heads above water until this passes.

            We have to reopen the economy. And as your thought says, it will most likely be by trail and error phases.

            GA

            1. Randy Godwin profile image59
              Randy Godwinposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              On this we agree, Gus. I also agree we have to reopen the economy. I hope the stay-at-home program bought us enough time to learn about the virus and how to be safer after the reopening.

        2. blueheron profile image94
          blueheronposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Wilderness, I would be curious to know whether you or GA know anyone at all who is sick. I don't.

          Now, a dear friend of mine, who would not lie to me, tells me that she knows two elderly men (father and son) who were hospitalized at the same time, and that one of them tested positive for covid and the other negative. Since they both had the same name and the hospital kept mixing them up, no one has any idea which of them tested positive. So I do know someone who knows someone who was sick in our county. And apart from this one friend, I don't even know anyone who knows anyone who has been sick.

          I do have a handful (five) relatives or in-laws who live elsewhere (other states or nearby counties), who have reported having the flu in the past few months. Only was tested positive; the others were not tested. One other asked to be tested but was refused.

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            No, I don't know anyone that is sick.  Not too surprising as I live in Idaho and even the Treasure Valley (biggest concentration of people) only has about a million people and 700 reported cases.  20 deaths.  I don't have too many online friends outside the state, but nearly all of those are rural as well - hardly know anyone in a big city.

  16. KC3Lady profile image78
    KC3Ladyposted 15 months ago

    Ready for the "reopening" and the stay in order to end.

  17. blueheron profile image94
    blueheronposted 15 months ago

    I think there's a question--perhaps a philosophical question, no less--as to the acceptability of risk, or as a risk/reward assessment.

    There is a Biblical quote that illustrates how risk-aversion may be taken to extremes: "The lazy man says, 'There is a lion in the road! A fierce lion is in the streets!' "--Proverbs 26:13. The  "lazy man" exaggerates the risk of leaving the house to go about his daily work. It is true that there is risk involved in all our activities. In going to work in the morning, or going to the store for a carton of milk, or to the hardware store for some plumbing fittings to fix a leaky pipe, etc., we run the risk of a traffic accident, a slip on the sidewalk, or of dropping a can of peaches on our foot. (One of my old friends died from dropping a can of peaches on her foot. She was a diabetic, and this caused her to die of sepsis.)

    We quite properly (even Proverbially) view people who tend to greatly exaggerate risks to be lacking in character. Carrying risk-aversion beyond a certain point means a refusal to fulfill your responsibilities towards others--one of the chief of which is going to work to be a productive member of society and thus avoid mooching off of others.

    We often have responsibilities that can only be undertaken at some risk to ourselves. Some people are soldiers. A bunch of guys stormed Normandy Beach. Some guys were fighter pilots (though usually not for long). Over 50,000 women are severely injured in childbirth each year; about 700 die. The maternal death rate in the US is 0.026%.

    I suppose part of my point here is that risk-aversion CANNOT be carried to great extremes, or life quite literally cannot go on.

    Exaggerated risk-aversion is no less fatuous when it is claimed to be on behalf of others. E.g., "We all have to stay home to protect Granny."

    Never mind the fact that all that is necessary is for Granny herself to stay home.

    So the question becomes, "Where do you draw the line on risk aversion?" What level of risk is acceptable, vis-a-vis what level of reward? Will we stop driving cars (considerably more risky than covid)? Will we outlaw sex? That has from time to time been pretty risky. I think the figures on AIDS deaths were 2.5 million at the beginning of the outbreak, which is pretty substantial.

    1. Nathanville profile image93
      Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      I think the main risk is overwhelming the hospitals beyond capacity; as happened in Wuhan and Italy because they were one of the first Countries/Regions to be hit by the pandemic, and were not prepared.

      Other countries in the Western World, who had advanced warning of what was coming, are prepared, including the UK & USA; but if restrictions (Social Distancing in the USA, and Lockdown in the UK) are eased too soon and or by too much, then there is a real risk of our hospitals being overwhelmed with covid-19 patients; remembering the incubation period can be up to two weeks, before an infected person shows any signs, and asymptomatic people show no signs, but can still infect others.

      And unlike AIDS which required close intimate contact for transmission, covid-19 is far more contagious, and silent e.g. asymptomatic people with coronavirus are contagious, and infectious within 6 feet even by just breathing and talking, plus the virus can survive on hard surfaces such as plastics and metal for up to three days.

      Plus, it transpires that it’s not just the elderly and people with medical conditions such as diabetes that are high risk of death from covid-19.  Some stats have shown that up to about 20% of deaths from covid-19 seem to be perfectly healthy people of all ages, including the young.

      The mortality rate of medical staff (throughout the world), those at the front end of fighting covid-19, is alarmingly high.

      1. blueheron profile image94
        blueheronposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        Nathanville, you are laboring under various fanciful ideas that are in sharp contradiction to reality.

        There was a CLAIMED risk of overwhelming the hospitals, and this was based on models that were ludicrously flawed to the point of being outright fraudulent, and have since been many times revised downward, without apology. Remember, Fauci started out by saying that 2.5 million
        Americans were likely to die--an estimate that contradicted the available data, even at the time.

        I don't pretend to know what motivated these scare tactics, backed up by blatant falsehoods--although I can think of some possible motivations.

        The actual facts on the ground is that the hospitals were never overwhelmed. In my area, the hospitals are empty. Hospitals are laying people off. I know this because one of my daughters is a respiratory therapist in an area hospital. What happened was that hospitals, fearing that they would be overwhelmed by covid patients, sent as many patients home as possible and canceled all elective surgeries. But no significant numbers of covid patients ever materialized. My daughter reports that the typical number of covid patients at her mid-size hospital is four to six. Hence, the hospital has found that they need to furlough employees. This is true of hospitals throughout this area. There is a very real danger that a lot of hospitals will be bankrupted by these policies and hence forced to close.

        Secondly, if you would like to know the death rate of young and healthy people, I would suggest that you look at the statistics for your area, as reported by your state and county health departments.

        I just looked at the covid "deaths by age" for my state (Missouri). The number of deaths of people under 50 is 11. The number of deaths of people over 50 is 303. Of the total, deaths of people over 70 is 213.While it would probably be more interesting for you to look at these data for your own state, here is the link to my state's data: https://health.mo.gov/living/healthcond … 0LUDFY5ZgU

        Further, deaths among younger people are almost invariably associated with serious co-morbidities. There has also been a tendency for media to omit mentioning the co-morbidities of patients who have died of covid. I find the assertion that these people were "perfectly healthy" for the most part suspect.

        Young people do indeed die with some regularity--of many things. I've lost quite a few old friends who died in their thirties or forties.

        Re the high mortality of medical staff, I would again question this statement. I just googled "covid deaths of health care workers in Missouri." There is only one such report, of a nurse, aged 69, who died on April 21st.

        You might want to google this for your area.

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Re: hospitals being overrun

          Your comments, though I doubt you meant them that way, sound like the anti-vaxxers:  We don't see Polio much so no need to vaccinate!

          Hospitals were not overrun anywhere (even NYC)...because of the shutdown.  To insinuate that it wasn't needed because it was effective in preventing an overrun doesn't make a lot of sense.  Yes, it appears that some areas would not have needed a shutdown to prevent overloading the health care system, but some most certainly did.  Given that hindsight is 20-20 it would seem that the decision to shut down was prudent, given the facts at the time.

          1. Nathanville profile image93
            Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Thanks for the clarification wilderness, my grammar was probably a bit off.

        2. Nathanville profile image93
          Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Nope.  I am not labouring under various fanciful ideal that are in sharp contradiction to reality.

          I am speaking from what is going on in the rest of the world outside of the USA Bubble e.g. in the UK (where I live) and across Europe.

          The fact is that Italy, who has one of the best healthcare systems in the word, was overwhelmed by the virus, because they were the first country in Europe to be hit by it; the epicentre of Europe; just as New York is the epicentre of the USA.

          The reason you’ve escaped lightly (so far) is because the rest of the USA, like the UK and most of Europe took measure to slow the spread of the virus before it got out of control.  If the virus was allowed to spread across the USA unchecked then the death toll would be considerably higher than it is now.

          Apart from Italy and Spain (the first two countries to face the pandemic in Europe, and thus hit quite hard because they were not prepared, Britain got hit harder than the rest of Europe because our Prime Minister hesitated for 10 days (allowing the virus to spread) before he ordered the ‘lockdown’.

          The fact that the fit and young are not immune from death by covid-19, is of evidence from outside of the USA Bubble e.g. many young and fit across Europe have died of it. 

          The fact that healthcare workers die from covid-19 is of evidence from outside of the USA Bubble e.g. over 100 healthcare workers in the UK alone in the past month.  And outside of the USA, the UK is not unique in this respect either.

          If you look at what has happened, and is happing in the rest of the world, rather than just in the USA bubble, it might be a forewarning of what could happen in the USA if restrictions are lifted too soon and by too much, allowing the virus to start spreading again before it’s been properly contained.

          More than 100 healthcare workers have died in the UK since the coronavirus outbreak began: https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus- … 9-11979546

          Coronavirus: Minute’s silence in the UK held to honour key workers who have died: https://youtu.be/ZwcIR8xP9s0

        3. Ken Burgess profile image87
          Ken Burgessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          I can attest to this, my wife is a RN, she has returned home early on several occasions now because they have a low census.

          This is because of the reasons you stated, as well as the fact that with people staying home, out of bars, out of work, off the roads, there are less accidents and injuries to treat.

          If this trend to "stay home" goes beyond May 1st in most places, it will begin to severely damage industries people don't even suspect are being affected.  Hospitals and the Medical Industry being one of them...

          The Medical Industry is 1/5th the economy. 

          The Services sector, a broad category of the economy that includes financial services, media, transportation and restaurants accounts for  over half (50%) of GDP in the United States.

          We have "stay home and stay safe" longer than is productive, the lives saved and the preparations needed no longer outweigh the costs. 

          Farms, Restaurants, Cruise Lines, Tourist Attractions (Disney + Universal + Lego parks which employ over 100,000 people in Florida alone) need to open back up.  They are all at risk of going bankrupt, and once that happens, once millions of jobs are lost, it will be years trying to get them back.

          1. Nathanville profile image93
            Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

            Yep, it’s a matter of balancing ‘saving lives against saving the economy’, and nobody seems to know the answers.  Hence why most countries around the world are treading with caution, and why the UK currently has a ‘Wait and See’ policy e.g. wait to see what mistakes other countries make in trying to restart their economies, and which strategies work.

            As regards hospitals, healthcare in the UK is Government owned and run (The NHS), so there is no danger of hospitals in the UK going bankrupt, because they don’t charge for their services anyway e.g. paid for by the Government.

            The hardest hit Industries in the UK include, but not exclusive to:-

            •    The Leisure Industry e.g. hotels, restaurants, nightclubs etc., of which my son (as a self-employed Professional Photographer) is part of.

            •    Garden Centres (closed by the Government), and online sales are not practical for obvious reasons.

            •    Airlines (plus other public transport).

            While overall Retail Sales are down 3.7% in the UK, there are winners and losers:  All Data According to the ONS (Office of National Statistics).

            The Biggest Winners in the UK are Food, DIY, household goods and alcohol, with alcohol being the biggest winner:-

            •    Alcohol sales in off-licences in the UK (USA word = liquor stores) is up 31.4%

            •    Overall Food sales in the UK is up 15.3%

            Food sold in supermarkets has increased by 10.3%, with the fastest-growing category in the UK being baking goods; up 49.3% (so I guess a lot of people in the UK are spending a lot of their spare time during the lockdown, baking).  This is closely followed by frozen food sales, which is up 28%.

            Sales in DIY supplies are up significantly as people in the UK try their hands at DIY while in lockdown e.g. DIY stores have been classified as an ‘essential service’ by the Government.

            Sales of Household goods in the UK is up 18%

            The hardest hit in the Retail Trade in the UK is the sales of clothes, which is down 34%.

            And because of travel restrictions, the sale of Petrol (USA word = Gas) in the UK is down 19%

            Yes, while many Industries in the UK have been hard hit by the lockdown, many of which in those industries will not survive e.g. thousands of pubs and nightclubs will go bankrupt; other industries are thriving, particular the food sector and DIY stores etc.

            In fact in the UK, because of in-store shopping in supermarkets are heavily restricted due to ‘Social Distancing’ Regulations e.g. shoppers only being allowed into the shops one at a time, an instructed to keep 2 metres apart from each other; demand for home deliveries far outstrips the resources (Labour and Drivers) to meet that demand.  Hence, all the main supermarkets (rivals) are now working in partnership to better meet that demand e.g. sharing with each other drivers, vans, staff and food (to pool their resources) to meet that demand. 

            For example, last week we had food delivered, which we bought from one supermarket (Morrisons), but was supplied by a competitor supermarket (Tescos), and arrived in a ‘burger van’ that belonged to neither e.g. they hired a private driver.  Such are the times.

            Of course, the other factor that makes things different in the UK than the USA is that the British Government are paying employees who can’t currently work 80% of what they would normally earn, specifically so that employers are not forced to make them redundant.  The Government is even intending to pay the self-employed 80% of the average of their net earnings over the past three years; to try to keep the self-employed afloat during the lockdown. 

            Consequently unemployment has risen by only 1.4 million in the UK (predicted to rise to 2 million by June), compared to the 26.4 million rise in unemployment in the USA.

            1. crankalicious profile image94
              crankaliciousposted 15 months agoin reply to this

              There's definitely a political element in what's happening here. Basically, the red states seem to be moving faster to open things up than the blue states.

              That said, while the red states are opening up and being charged with moving too fast, their attempt to move forward seem to be relatively conservative. It's not like they're telling everyone to go party.

              I think no matter what they do or what they say, the problem is going to be with the people themselves not following the guidelines. You'll have people who wear masks and respect social distancing and those who don't.

              I think the real test will be in Georgia because their death toll is still rising. If the confluence of spread and death toll and people not listening comes together wrong, they'll be in real trouble. If we get some measure of relief through medicine and weather (doubtful) then maybe it's not so bad.

              I think if everyone wears a mask and we maintain social distancing and we all wash our hands regularly, the resulting decline in infections should be significant enough that it's worth it to return to a "normal" economy. Basically, somebody has to do some kind of experiment and figure out if such an approach works.

              This whole thing is also exacerbating the differences between rural and urban citizens because urban folks are so much more susceptible to the virus due to their closeness. One should expect a lot more Americans moving away from the cities.

              1. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                "I think the real test will be in Georgia because their death toll is still rising."

                I really wish we would be seeing/hearing not what the death toll is, but what todays number of new cases is, compared to the last few days.  Death tolls tells us how many people got sick weeks ago and finally succumbed; the infection numbers tell us what the virus is doing right now.  Not the total number in a state or city, but what today's numbers are compared to yesterday's.  And that's far more important when it comes to re-opening the country.

                1. crankalicious profile image94
                  crankaliciousposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  You're right. I'm using "death toll" just as kind of a catch-all. But I think Georgia's cases are going up, not down, at the moment.

                  Once states get to a place where cases have diminished, additional measures should continue to slow the spread even with people moving about.

              2. GA Anderson profile image91
                GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                I am 'shooting from the hip' here Crankilicious, not taking issue with your comment.

                I have a couple of thoughts. First is that we must get our economy started again. The idle/unemployed cannot support themselves, (ie. putting food on the table), and the government cannot support them, (ie. $1200 checks), indefinitely.

                Second, there is no magic wand date or statistic that will be the bar to meet to get back to 'normal'. Even if a herculean effort gets us a vaccine in 18 months, that is still at least 12 months beyond feasible sustainability.

                My opinion is that we must reopen the economy . . . and deal with the consequences. As you mentioned, I think the rural and less densely—populated areas will fare best, (I don't have any problem with crowded beaches or busy national parks), so I am all for them opening up. I think densely populated cities will have to adopt different strategies.

                From all that I hear, I think our only path is to view this like the flu; ie. the "herd immunity" solution.Our medical systems are already ramped-up for the expected curve peaks, so hopefully, they won't be overwhelmed by the consequences of opening up our society again.

                GA

                1. crankalicious profile image94
                  crankaliciousposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  There's no evidence there's any herd immunity, but I do agree that there's some point where things have to be opened up.

                  My basic point is this - if you open everything up, but people wear masks, practice social distancing, and wash hands - assuming that the vast majority of people do those things, it seems inconceivable that the spread of the virus wouldn't slow considerably.

                  If people resist doing those things, which I think many will, then I suspect there will be serious problems.

                  What we certainly don't want is to end up back at square one.

                  1. crankalicious profile image94
                    crankaliciousposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                    I was listening to a pandemic expert this morning and they did say they thought there would be herd immunity when 60-70% of the population has Coronavirus. We're currently at 5%.

                    I was commenting on something I heard that suggested getting Coronavirus once does not mean you're immune to getting it again, which would mean herd immunity might be ineffective.

                2. Nathanville profile image93
                  Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

                  Crowded beaches and busy parks are the very places that would accelerate the spread of the virus; and with only 15% of the population at most having anti-bodies (probably a lot lower) and with the death toll already over 60,000 in the USA and still rising, to get to herd immunity would mean the death toll potentially fivefold, if not higher e.g. increasing to at least 300,000 or more. 

                  Also, as regards a vaccine, I notice that all news media in the USA is deliberately ignoring progress being made outside of the USA bubble e.g. in other parts of the world (including the UK) trials for a vaccine have already started, and the usual red tape is being cut to expedite the trials, and mass production, if the early trials prove positive.  So outside of the USA bubble there may well be vaccines available sooner rather than later e.g. late 2020, early 2021?

                  Europe is taking a far more cautious approach than the USA; but which route pays off in the end remains to be seen e.g. we should have a better idea within the next month or two on whether the USA reckless approach or the European cautious approach achieves a better economic outcome with fewer lives lost?

                  UK Government Daily Brief to the British Public (30th April 2020):  https://youtu.be/Sea5XRMnihg

  18. IslandBites profile image91
    IslandBitesposted 15 months ago

    Anthony S. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said a second wave of infections is “inevitable” in the United States, which has recorded more than 1 million confirmed cases — nearly one-third of the global total. Fauci also warned that “we could be in for a bad fall and a bad winter” if the right countermeasures aren’t put in place.

  19. paradigmsearch profile image61
    paradigmsearchposted 15 months ago

    I couldn't help but post this: https://www.kron4.com/health/coronaviru … istancing/ Coming to a grocery story near you. Pro? Con? Thoughts?

    1. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      Our WalMart aisles aren't one way, but there is signage as you enter, insisting you stay on the "entrance" side of the wide entrance aisle.

    2. Nathanville profile image93
      Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      That website has restricted access e.g. prohibited from view in Europe, so any chance in letting us Europeans have a summery of the main points?

      1. GA Anderson profile image91
        GA Andersonposted 15 months agoin reply to this

        It is a story about Walmart adopting one-way aisles with floor signage showing which way to shop.

        The theory is that it will help maintain social distancing because there won't be any passing "traffic," and assuming that all will patiently keep their distance behind the shopper in front of them until it is their turn to get to a part of the aisle.

        Here is an accompanying image:

        https://hubstatic.com/14996512.jpg

        GA

        1. Nathanville profile image93
          Nathanvilleposted 15 months agoin reply to this

          Thanks GA, it's good to see some good measures on 'Social Distancing' being introduced in the USA.

        2. blueheron profile image94
          blueheronposted 14 months agoin reply to this

          Our Walmart has rearranged the entrance by putting a kind of rail up so that you have to walk around it to get to the door. I am not sure of the purpose of this; it seems to just funnel people together. No one-way aisles.

          For awhile they had yellow tape around the entrance and a masked lady "hall monitor," possibly on the theory that a theatrical presentation was required to get people to believe there was a flu going around. They quickly abandoned that idea, perhaps fearing that they were boring people.

          People here make a half-hearted effort to maintain some distance at both Walmart and Sprouts. There are some masks at Walmart, worn by half or fewer of the customers, but many more at Sprouts, which is in more of a suburban area. (Our Walmart is in a decidedly rural area.) But the effort to maintain social distance is much more half-hearted at Sprouts, as it is a rather compact store.

          I think most people in rural areas try to maintain social distance out of courtesy, in case some of their fellow shoppers are nutters--or perhaps even vulnerable. People are almost aggressively courteous around here.

          I see very few masks at our small-town grocery store, other than those worn by the cashiers. I think most people around here are rather dubious about the idea that there is something going around, as there doesn't appear to be anything going around. Nobody is sick. The state health department statistics record 50 cases and one death in a county of about 34,000 people. The one death was a guy in hospice care.

          Kansas City, Missouri, records 16 deaths out of a population of about half a million. The state health department website shows they have had 706 cases.

          The only people who even believe there is a flu going around are people who watch WAY too much TV--and that one guy on Facebook who attends our town's ultra-liberal church, where they are doubtless praying for the non-existent victims of the scourge every Sunday morning.

          I went to that particular church for awhile, back when they were pounding the pulpit in favor of the Iraq War, and praying for our troops as if Jesus had mustered them out for the Last Judgement, in between pounding the pulpit to pass another bond issue. I haven't been back for a number of years, but I'm pretty sure they have poor Goeff shaking in his shoes.

          1. crankalicious profile image94
            crankaliciousposted 14 months agoin reply to this

            I think it's safe to assume that if you don't see it, it doesn't exist. Like God.

  20. Nathanville profile image93
    Nathanvilleposted 15 months ago

    What do American’s think of yesterday’s News?

    “3,000 USA deaths per day projected by June”

    https://youtu.be/XSq8Nx7NBH4

  21. IslandBites profile image91
    IslandBitesposted 15 months ago

    GOP Ohio state lawmaker refuses to wear face mask because faces are the 'likeness of God'

    “This is not the entire world,” state Rep. Nino Vitale wrote in a lengthy Facebook post on Monday morning. “This is the greatest nation on earth founded on Judeo-Christian Principles.”

    “One of those principles is that we are all created in the image and likeness of God. That image is seen the most by our face. I will not wear a mask,” he continued.


    Ugh! SMH

    1. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 15 months agoin reply to this

      Then he doesn't need to be in the same room.  Let him stay home.

  22. blueheron profile image94
    blueheronposted 14 months ago

    Crank, I'd call that a reality check.

    1. crankalicious profile image94
      crankaliciousposted 14 months agoin reply to this

      I'm just saying, if it's some conspiracy, ignore it and go about your life. Don't worry, be happy. I'm sure all this virus stuff is just more fake news. You don't see it in your community, so I doubt it's happening.

  23. Valeant profile image87
    Valeantposted 14 months ago

    Trump Administration burying CDC guidelines that contradict their plan to reopen the economy.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/ap-exclusive … 39591.html

    1. crankalicious profile image94
      crankaliciousposted 14 months agoin reply to this

      Once again, wishful thinking trumps science. Or, in other words "let's do it my way because I have a natural ability to know what's right".

      That's not Trump's issue, that an issue for many. The scientists are lying. There in on some big conspiracy. And we know this because Bobby on Youtube says so.

    2. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 14 months agoin reply to this

      I would have two questions here:
      1) What is being changed or left out, and
      2) did the CDC do a rigid analysis of the effect, both long and short term, on the economy of the shutdown?  Did they analyze the results of the shutdown on businesses, both large and small, both long and short term?  Did they study the long term inflationary effects of the massive borrowing and giveaways that an extended shutdown will require?  What about the credit rating of the country?  Did they go into just where the continued "stimulus" money would come from?

      These are all far outside the expertise of a govt. agency tasked with disease control, but they are vital questions when it comes to they type of response we're using on COVID - if we could simply shutdown the country indefinitely without harm, why didn't we do so years ago and give people the luxury of unlimited leisure time they want?

      I have repeatedly commented that our response MUST be a balanced one between harming the people through poverty and a ruined economy vs harming them through disease.  Both WILL happen; where is the balancing point we should be aiming at?

      1. crankalicious profile image94
        crankaliciousposted 14 months agoin reply to this

        While I think Trump is doing an incompetent job, this is almost a no-win situation. Open the economy too early and face another outbreak that causes us to have to shut down again. Or wait too long and make it that much more challenging to get the economy going again - more people out of work, more economic disaster. More debt. It's certainly not an easy call.

        Seems to me many states are approaching it the right way which is to test the waters slowly and see how it goes. It's just going to be extra hard if people don't follow the rules.

        Republican, Democrat, we all want to return to something resembling our lives the way they were. We can't blame our politicians for making reasonable efforts at that.

        It's just a shame we weren't more prepared. That said, look at the average American. Few of us are prepared for catastrophe. Few of us can make it more than a month. Few of us have adequate savings. Few of us have adequate retirement savings. Few of us are willing to make any kind of sacrifice to help our fellow human beings, like wear a mask in public.

        Government is really a pretty accurate reflection of how we behave in our own personal lives - carefree and unprepared.

  24. blueheron profile image94
    blueheronposted 14 months ago

    There are several problems with your premise that the "scientists" are reliable. One of these is the abominable track record of Fauci's modeling. He originally predicted around 2.5 million covid deaths in the US, and has been walking back his subsequent models ever since. Fauci's handling of the AIDS epidemic at the time of the initial outbreak cost millions of lives.

    Neil Ferguson's Imperial College models were also farcical. It is said that his computer codes are..."substandard" by a wide margin. Plus, like Fauci, his track record is very poor. https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/p … -disgrace/

    You could get the impression that competency is not a desired quality among "scientists" employed by the government. You could also get the impression that the sole qualification for ascending to such positions is an incandescent enthusiasm for being a tool.

    Further, we have excellent historically successful models for dealing with infectious diseases. Tuberculosis, which killed one in seven people in the late 1800s, is one of them. Infected people were quarantined. Even in the 1950s, when I was in school, every school child was tested for tuberculosis. Such testing is still done in some US communities on a more limited basis.

    Quarantines are a proven method. Extensive testing for covid, if the intent were to quarantine the infected, seems a little over-the-top, since, as with other flu viruses, almost everyone will get it.

    Why were proven methods not put in place at an early date? Why do we have no competent people at the helm? There are plenty of them around--people with sound medical knowledge and clinical experience and degrees out the wazoo.

    With regard to whether Fauci and Ferguson are part of a "big conspiracy," the question is whether they are engaged in a conspiracy or, alternatively, whether they are really that stupid.

    The latter is, of course, possible. After all, they are government employees, so they were selected for stupidity and corruptibility. Stupidity is eminently serviceable in the advancement of corruption.

    1. crankalicious profile image94
      crankaliciousposted 14 months agoin reply to this

      So you have been following this pandemic and your conclusion is that Dr. Fauci is the problem?

      If Fauci is stupid, then you believe he misinterpreted the data he had. Do you have evidence that he did that?

      If he is part of a conspiracy, then he must have knowingly given a false conclusion from the data he had. Do you have evidence of that?

      Have you reviewed the data he used and come up with a different conclusion because I do know that he revised his projections based on new data, which is what I think a scientist is supposed to do.

      1. wilderness profile image96
        wildernessposted 14 months agoin reply to this

        Did Fauci change his prediction of 2M deaths if no actions were taken?  I had not seen that.

        Nor have I seen any real changes to the projection of 100,000 to 200,000 fatalities with effective social distancing etc.  I DID see some saying it might be high and that they hoped it would be, but no real changes in the prediction.  Did that one change as well?

        1. crankalicious profile image94
          crankaliciousposted 14 months agoin reply to this

          I think you're asking the right questions. Models are only as good as the data upon which they are based. It is up to the scientist to change predictions based on changing data and to use unbiased data. Ultimately though, predictions are just that, predictions.

  25. IslandBites profile image91
    IslandBitesposted 14 months ago

    Dr. Robert R. Redfield
    @CDCDirector

    CDC tracks 12 different forecasting models of possible #COVID19 deaths in the US. As of May 11, all forecast an increase in deaths in the coming weeks and a cumulative total exceeding 100,000 by June 1.

    His tweet https://twitter.com/CDCDirector/status/ … 1039993856

    See CDC national & state forecasts https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc … ng-us.html

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/images/National-Forecast-2020-05-11.jpg

  26. Valeant profile image87
    Valeantposted 14 months ago

    This aptly describes the disconnect between the two political parties currently:

    Regarding the Coronavirus: The Trump administration was the No. 1 source of misinformation for 85% of Democrats but only 4% of Republicans, according to the poll. On the flip side, 75% of Republicans said the mainstream national media was the No. 1 source of misinformation, compared with only 2% of Democrats.

  27. Valeant profile image87
    Valeantposted 14 months ago

    This was an informative timeline of how our government handled (botched) the Covid-19 response: 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD9XWTbbSGA

 
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