This is your President:
a man who claims fraud in the 2016 election and organizes a committee to find fraud which fails and disbands.
a man who again claims fraud in the 2020 election before the election even happens and does not commit to the peaceful transfer of power.
a man who claims fraud after the election with no proof (and despite reports that says he acknowledges the loss in private) whatsoever to rile up his base.
a man who takes a giant dump on the Constitution and asserts that his Vice President can decide the next President. Here's what he tweeted after Pence, among his most loyal servants, followed the Constitution:
"Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!"
a man who openly encourages his supporters to march on D.C. to make sure Democrats don't steal the election.
a man who openly encourages his supporters who have now breached the Capitol building. BREACHED THE CAPITOL building in an effort to overthrow the duly elected government.
Trump supporters are trying to end Democracy and America. If you're a Trump supporter, is that you? Look at what he's done to every person who's disagreed with him, no matter how long they've supported him. Stabbed them in the back. Thrown them under the bus at the first opportunity.
What's happening right now is a coup, promoted, encouraged, and basically led by the President of the United States.
I'm curious to see how history books will remember this day.
I suspect when our form of government changes from Democracy to authoritarianism, historians, assuming they're not jailed for it, will point to this day and the symbolic beginning of the end.
History is written by the winners. In this case those same winners will ignore months and years of their own people encouraging such activity, through appeasement and simply ignoring it, and put the entire blame on Trump. The inevitable results of refusing to enforce the law will be put on the one person that did the least to encourage rioting and in fact did the most to discourage it when he sent federal troops to control cities that refused to protect their citizens.
I completely agree with your thoughts, but . . .
That "one person" was the most important and symbolic of all leaders. The other 'leaders' that could' be tied to the previous protests/riots events are mere minions relative to the symbolism of the presidency.
I think that "one person" is directly responsible for inciting the Capitol protests, and that the damage caused by it was much worse than any monetary or property damage caused by all of the other protest/riot events.
The symbolic damage of an assault on our Capitol and legislators strikes at the heart of our nation. We have tools and processes to deal with the protests/riots—whether they were properly used, or not.
We don't get to point fingers and then claim a justification of; "See, here's what you started." when we do it. It broke my heart to watch Americans I have supported for four years turn into the same mob we have been criticizing for those same four years.
For this event, I think Pres. Trump is the most directly responsible party. As I watched his rally that day he was practically glowing in the adulation coming from the crowd, and he stoked and stoked and uttered one false claim* after another until he had the crowd at a fever pitch, and then he turned them loose on the Capitol and our lawmakers.
*I heard one pundit claim Pres. Trump listed 38 fraud claims in his rally. I don't know if that is true, and I know that there are a few claims that have not been addressed adequately for many Americans, but as I listened to him I did hear him repeat nearly half a dozen that have been properly addressed, investigated, and debunked, (at least to my satisfaction), yet he repeated and exaggerated them anyway.
However, as I listen to Vice president-elect Biden's recent comments he has abandoned his early time's pleas for healing and unity and is now turning to more strong condemnations and accusations—using language supportive of the previous Left' protests and riots. Geesh, that didn't last long. Just another pandering politician.
I agree with everything you said except for the last paragraph. Biden has harsh criticism for the rioters, but it's clear he is trying to limit his criticism to just them and not Trump supporters in general.
“Let me be very clear: the scenes of chaos at the Capitol do not reflect a true America, do not represent who we are,” Biden said. “What we’re seeing are a small number of extremists dedicated to lawlessness.”
Disagree as you will, but the public Biden statement last night and this morning were exactly as I described.
If I weren't so disheartened I would track down this morning's statement and present it, but the point just isn't worth the effort to argue—yet. If he continues I will gladly track down the quotes for you/
The Biden statement I provided DID come from last night. After numerous searches, I can't find anything from Biden in support of leftist riots. Maybe you have better luck, assuming the sources are credible.
What I did find was a detailed history of Biden condemning leftist riots.
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact … SKBN25V2O1
Otherwise, do you agree or disagree that “What we’re seeing are a small number of extremists dedicated to lawlessness” is a statement that condemns a violent fraction and not the entire right half of the country?
You are welcome to the last word here. As noted, if I hear more of it I might be energized to find the ones I listened to and referenced. Otherwise, I just don't have the energy for it now.
I'm not looking for the last word. Can you at least please acknowledge my factual sources and answer my question?
All conservatives types are generally disheartened, they lost the White House and both chambers of Congress. For them, this allows the Democrats to indulge themselves. I trust Democrat instincts and welcome the removal of any all obstructions to their agenda. Others may not feel the same, that is natural.
The Republicans are going to take their displeasure to the courts to have them "legislate from the bench" for what they can no longer obtain through the standard legislative process
Trump has now turned his divisive and vengeful personality onto Republicans who won't bend to him. I'm sure it's disheartening Republicans even more.
That said, I hope Democrats don't indulge themselves too much and try to govern from the far left instead of center left. If they do, they will re-energize the Republicans and potentially cost themselves the House and Senate once again during mid-term elections.
Kudos to you Scott, I distinctly remembering your forecast of a Biden/Harris ticket as preferable and ideal months ago, you were spot on.
You are more conservative than I. I (we) did not suffer through 4 years of madness only to return to a status quo ante, or mindless conservatism without the ugly face.
I am going to want change, pulling more to the left but not so much as to alarm our more moderate friends. With Joe Biden I am sure there are not going to be leftists in his entourage ready with Molotov cocktails. We on the left are going to want to move him over a nudge or two in our direction.
Some progress is better than none at all.
We, and hopefully President Elect Biden, are going have to show the voters the advantages of a more progressive agenda and win them over with real results. I am not afraid to take that stand.
"We, and hopefully President Elect Biden, are going have to show the voters the advantages of a more progressive agenda and win them over with real results."
You're going to have a real problem with that, as progressing towards total socialism (or marxism if you prefer) has virtually no advantages, at least not to people willing to take responsibility for themselves. Higher taxes, more regulations, more control; these are not "advantages".
"total socialism"? Under Joe Biden?
Get a grip on yourself. I am so saddened to see how extreme you have become under Trump's spell.
"You're going to have a real problem with that, as progressing towards total socialism (or marxism if you prefer) has virtually no advantages, at least not to people willing to take responsibility for themselves. Higher taxes, more regulations, more control; these are not "advantAges"
From the Rightwingers point of view that is how things look, fortunately Trump and the rightwing philosophy is out of vogue as of January 20th.
We will see what changes are wrought.
Socialism? Marxism? You are living in a fantasy, cuckoo world.
Biden is about as centrist as you get.
Fortunately for you, a Democrat President with a Democratically controlled Congress has no history of being able to pass much legislation. Much like Republicans, they get tied in knots. Obama was a communist too, right? The only moderately progressive legislation he passed was Obamacare, which is very friendly to, and tied to, private insurance providers. Obama, also a centrist.
And we're assuming we even get past Jan. 20. Millions of Trump supporters seem to be planning an armed conflict.
Thanks, Credence. You have a remarkable memory. Just to be clear, I thought the ticket was ideal because of their demographics.
They have a combination of east coast / west coast, male / female, older / younger and white / black. I still have some concerns about the policies they support.
I strongly agree with you that some progress is better than none. And Biden-Harris aren't going to damage the country the way Trump-Pence have done.
No, I can't address your "factual sources" because I didn't look at them. I am just not interested in arguing this point—at this point.
However, I missed seeing your question the first time around, so I will answer it now: Yes, I can agree with that statement.
Let me set this as a reference point we can refer to: I am not setting out to bash Biden for the next four years. I was glad to hear his initial comments. They were what I think was needed and appropriate. And I liked what he said in his press gaggle today, but, I will stand by my perception of his comment this morning.
While I agree with most of you points, that wasnt a protest. From Trump & clan calls to fight, trial by combat, etc to the "this is our 1776" signs, "this is a revolution" declarations, it is clear what it was. It is time you (general) have the ***** to say it. And to stop the false equivalence.
I did use the word "protest" one time relative to the Capitol Hill event. Then I followed by calling it an "assault."
I will stick with "assault," but I certainly wouldn't call it a revolution. Those that promoted the signs you noted are simply extremists in the mold of Antifa extremists. They may be representative of Pres. Trump's most fervent base, but I don't believe they represent all Trump voters and supporters.
I forgot to ask what you would call the event? An effort towards revolution? An insurrection? What is your description?
I agree, they dont represent all Trump voters, but they represent Trump. And revolution is too big of a word for that group.
But they are not just "simply extremists". Yes, they are extremists and they are a big part of your country. They're lawyers, cops, veterans, politicians, etc, also ordinary people. Some of you (general you) would like to believe those were just crazy idiots. They're worse than that. And it is growing. Just look at the numbers of QAnon followers. They've been embolden by the scum that has gained political power.
But to your question, that wasn't a protest. That was an attack, insurrection, sedition. Yes, there were signs, but also bombs and firearms. And it was planned, instigated by some in the government. And most of those people that were there, knew why they went there.
I don't agree with a couple of your points, but to address those disagreements would portray my thoughts as supportive of the folks that stormed the Capitol, and I will not do that because I don't support them or their actions.
My only consolation is that from the public presentations; media, videos, etc., it is clear there was ten times the number of rally folks that maintained their rally position than there were the idiots that actually stormed the building.
Well said. Is that any different than the people who were protesters versus the people who were rioters in Portland?
I don't know, GA. Is Trump more important than the mayor of Portland to the small business that was destroyed by rioters? Is he more important, and symbolic of all leaders than the one that denied police protection to the people that lost their life's work...to those same people? Or just to those people (the large majority) that did not suffer direct damage from rioters?
"..the damage caused by it was much worse than any monetary or property damage caused by all of the other protest/riot events."
Again, was the "symbolic damage" more important to the people that lost their life's work? I think not. And if we have tools to handle riots (I don't believe we do, not with the liberal philosophy of "don't hurt criminals involved in breaking the law") they are not being used. Not anywhere in the country.
While I wholly agree that Trump's actions have been truly reprehensible since the election, and that he destroyed any possibility of getting my vote in the imaginary election of 2024, I maintain that the primary culprits behind the DC riot was those elected leaders that watched their own city riot over the past few years and did nothing about it. When there are no consequences of illegal actions then we can expect illegal actions to grow in number and size...exactly as we have seen this past year with rioters.
In other words, you blame Democrats for causing the Trump mob to attack the Capitol.
It took him a couple of days to come up with this tortured, twisted way to not blame Trump but I expected it. Here it is in all its magnificent glory!
You will disagree, as will most liberals, but the fact remains that ignoring rioting, let alone the active encouragement provided, WILL produce more and worse rioting.
So yes, the riot in DC has been building for some time and has had years worth of "education" in steadily escalating rioting activity all over the country.
Ball is in your court. Show that writing DUI tickets does not decrease drunk driving. Show that catching and convicting thieves does not reduce stealing (that's why stores all have cameras, after all - to let them go). My state just criminalized using a cell phone while driving - show that it is misguided and that if we just ask people not to do it, they won't.
Go ahead; show that enforcing laws does nothing to reduce crime.
Arresting more than 750 people and injuring more than 40 of them in Portland is not ignoring rioting.
And if you have ever been in the middle of a riot with 40,000 to 60,000 people -- compared to only 1,000 in Portland -- yoiui would understand that containment prevents riots from spreading.
Otherwise, I don't see any relevance in your other paragraphs to a deadly mob attack on the Capitol building. More deflection.
I will let Wilderness fight his own battles, but I will offer a supportive thought.
I see a lot of relevance in his points. Not to the degree of rationalizing the Capitol event, but certainly to his perspective that if those 100 nights of riots had been held to two or three nights, or if other cities had punished rioters instead of allowing them to continue, (as in not allowing CHAZ), then other protestors, including the folks that assaulted our Capitol, might not have been so assumptive that they could get away with it.
I agree that his idea that a planted weed seed was allowed to grow—instead of being yanked out by the roots, has partial responsibility for our current situation.
Are they still rioting? Are there riots continuing anywhere?
What Wilderness fails to see is that the police contained the protests and riots on purpose to a small area, which resulted in limited damage and injuries. Anyone who breached the containment got arrested.
He also fails to see the moral justification for the protesters (but not the rioters, some of whom were instigators with other agendas). Numerous black murders by police is not morally equal to phony election fraud claims.
All of which becomes false equivalence. A small group of rioters in a Portland neighborhood is nothing compared to a deadly insurrectionist attack on the U.S. Capitol.
Yep, "contained" the protests for 100 nights. Is there something wrong with thinking that the protests/riots should have been stopped? Would it make any difference if they continued for 200 nights? Is that still containment?
Did their moral justification end at 100 nights, was that their allotted time?
Of course, I am only repeating the "100 nights" thing, I don't know how many nights it was, but I do know that your comments are trying to minimize those nights.
Doesn't the constitution allow free assembly? Wouldn't stopping the protests be unconstitutional?
Your responses are sounding more tense.
How do police determine how many protests they will allow to take place? The reality is they can't.
And no, I'm not trying to "minimize" the number of nights. I just know that police don't have a magic wand that can turn off protests whenever they feel like it.
Unless you want a country like Russia or China.
Did arresting 750 people end the riots? No, it went on for over 3 months, every single night.
"Containing" a riot that goes on night after night after night does nothing for those that live there. It doesn't help the business being attacked every night. But it DOES tell the rioters they are free to continue.
I don't see that response, then, as appropriate as it did nothing to stop the destruction. Of course, of those 750 arrested I kept hearing they were released without any charges. This, too, then encourages rioting; like small children they got attention but no negative consequence.
More deflections. The same false equivalence. I'm still waiting to hear if you support or condemn the attack on Capitol Hill.
THAT is the subject of these threads. Please stay on the subject.
FYI, your post contains another factual error. Some were charged and some were released without charges. All of them were not released without charges.
We are looking at this from two different perspectives bud. Of course, all politics are local, and those folks of your response would agree with your thoughts.
I am speaking of this as a national issue and I will hold to my thought that the president's actions and the assault on the Capitol were much more damaging to us as a nation.
Otherwise, I agree with your condemnation of local and national leaders that didn't step up to the challenge of all the city riots. And I agree that their lack of action bears some responsibility for the mindset, (that nothing would happen to them), of the folks that assaulted the Capitol building.
I'm hopeful we can get back to the Republican Party that fights for smaller government. I liked that party.
Plus, I would seriously consider voting for Mitt Romney if he runs again.
You're right. History is written by the winners and I fear all these recent events did was validate every person that hated Donald Trump to begin with, and add more fuel to the fire when he was often compared to dictators like kim jong un and others.
I wouldn't be surprised if Trump becomes remembered as the second coming of Hitler now. Plus after the recounts, I heard two Republican senators lost their position in the house.
Unfortunately, I think the USA is in a no win situation right now. Regardless of who's president in 2021, over half the country is going to assume the system was rigged somehow; hence throwing more shade on our own democracy.
And when people no longer believe in democracy in the USA, then one has to wonder how much longer do we have until this leads to a facist dictatorship or another civil war which I feel could still be immenent if we're not careful.
Certainly not. Anyone who reads history knows that it is revised all of the time according to new evidence and critical discussion by experts.
Here are a few posts of Trump supporters, courtesy of thedonald.win:
"Trump or War. Today. That simple."
"If you don't know how to shoot. You need to learn. NOW."
"Trump WILL be sworn in for a second term on January 20th!! We must not let the communists win. Even if we have to burn DC to the ground. Tomorrow we take back DC and take back our country!!"
"Patriots who STILL, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, are too cowardly to condone violence, are part of the problem."
Also, just for reference, here's a list of Trump's 30,000 lies while in office:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics … e_manual_2
Let's take a trip down political rioting memory lane. Ah, those lovely events that followed the election of President Donald Trump. A time before the Democrats has their voting fraud system in place.
"The Democratic Party has zero moral high ground on this issue. They’ve done nothing to quell the violence and unrest on their side, which started right after Trump won the presidency.
The media won’t bring this up, but in the aftermath of Trump’s election in November 2016, the left began protesting—and those protests typically ended in violence.
“For the third night in a row, anti-Donald Trump demonstrators took to the streets in several big cities and on college campuses across the United States, including an outburst of smashed windows and a dumpster fire in Portland that police countered with pepper spray and flash-bang devices,” reported USA Today just days after Trump’s upset victory over Hillary Clinton.''
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/m … n-n1312876
I must admit that breaching the Capital is nowhere near as destructive or dramatic and what those on the left did. Please understand, we are new at this and it will take us awhile to get up to speed.
Breaching the capital may have been more dramatic (although burning cities, mobs looting stores and destroyed police vehicles do have a certain drama to them), but it paled before the destruction that just a single city, Portland, suffered. A few thousand dollars, where the liberal riots in Portland cost individuals (as opposed to the taxpayer) their entire life's work.
You have a deep, serious misunderstanding about police tactics in riot situations.
Perhaps I do. But I have a very firm grasp of the results of those tactics...as I watch cities burn and police back away and watch it happen. As I watch city leaders refuse federal help to stop the madness. As I watch the longest running nightly riot in our countries history. Perhaps I have a serious misunderstanding of tactics employed, but I am quite capable of assessing whether those tactics produce results I approve of. Are you? Were you satisfied with over 100 days of nightly riots and destruction in just one city? Were you happy with the takeover of part of Seattle, with not only police buy people that live there denied entry? Were you happy with mobs breaking down fencing and trespassing on private property? Were you happy to see the mob enter the Capital building? All results of the current police tactics...did the results please you?
Still deflecting, but I will answer your questions.
Portland police arrested more than 200 people. More than 40 of them were injured. Hardly an example of standing back and doing nothing.
Yes, I'm quite capable of assessing the results because I have extensive experience with police, rioters and protesters during my career.
Of course I'm not satisfied with any destruction by rioters. Are you satisfied with a violent mob trying to take over the Capitol building?
Seditionist Trump rioters attacking and killing police, ransacking the Capitol and trying to destroy a legally elected administration doesn't please me at all. But I get the impression it pleases you.
EDIT: After more research, at least 750 were arrested. Even more to the point.
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