On Wednesday, Jan 6, 2021, while Congress was attempting to certify Joe Biden as having won the election to become the next President of the United States, Donald Trump was exhorting the mob he had spent the previous week or two calling together to attack Congress and stop the process. He constantly used the word "fight", and making boxing gestures, to rile up the crowd and then sent them on their way into infamy.
March they did and they violently invaded the Capital building intent on stopping the certification of Joe Biden. They murdered one police officer in the process and one of their own was killed climbing in a window. Three others died of "medical conditions" brought on by the riot.
For this, since Mike Pence won't invoke the 25th Amendment to prevent Trump from causing further harm to the nation, the Democrats (and several Republicans) have set a course to impeach Donald Trump for the second time.
The charge - Inciting an Insurrection.
It is expect it will pass the House on Wednesday, Jan 13; seven days before Biden is sworn in.
They understand they can't stop Trump from doing further damage, only Pence can do that, but there are two reasons to continue. Donald Trump must be punished in some fashion for trying to overthrow the gov't and to prevent him from ever running for office again.
Passing the House is not at issue. Getting a conviction in the Senate is and is probably an uphill road given the number of Republican Senators who have sold their soul to the devil.
So where does the count stand right now? First consider that if there is a trial, it will happen after the new Senate is sworn in. If so, then you have 50 Democrats and Independents who will vote to convict. Another 17 Republicans are needed. Who is probably on board now according to their latest statement or past actions?
1. Sen Romney (voted to impeach last time)
2. Sen Murkowski (statement)
3. Sen Collins (she knows now Trump didn't "learn his lesson")
4. Sen Sasse (statement)
5. Sen Toomey (statement)
So 12 more are needed.
Who will probably vote to acquit Trump:
That is 10 Senators with no character. That leaves 35 more which are up for grabs.
What will they do?
Sen Pat Toomey joined Sen Lisa Murkowski in demanding Trump resign. When will Collins and Romney join them?
--- Realistically an impeachment takes time. There are preparation times, the President has a right to defend himself (I know you don't feel he should be given that right, but it's the law)... Then the cases are presented and argued. There is no time to impeach the President. But it's a great story for the media to run with.
Tonight Nancy Pelosi answered that question on 60 Minutes when Leslie Stahl asked it. She said that the impeachment can continue after Trump leaves office. When the new congress comes in, she says there will be enough votes in favor for a trial and conviction. It does not matter that he is out of office. The point is that he would be impeached and forever barred from running for office.
Your last sentence says it all: a 100% political ploy, and one that has nothing to do with the "good of the country". It might keep Democrats from facing Trump again the future (politics again, not the good of the country) but that's it. Haven't we seen enough of such posturing and hand wringing?
Yes, it is a political action, by definition. But the goal is saving America from Trump. The damage he has done now is incalculable.
It was said (and I was one of them) before he was elected that he was an existential threat to the existence of America as a viable democracy - and that has now been borne out.
For example, texts from one of the insurrectionists carrying zip ties said his intent was to kill Pelosi. That alone should get him 50 years (unfortunately it is only 5 to 10 years).
I wonder if the very fact that members of Congress having to be moved to a safe location doesn't make every insurrectionist who entered the Capital subject to the statutes covering these offenses - 18 U.S.C.
It will be very good for the country if Trump can never run for office again, which would be the case should be be found guilty.
And your point is? I think this country has seen enough of Trump's posturing. Let's see, the current count at the Capitol is five dead. If that isn't enough, the count of deaths from Covid-19 is growing exponentially and his lack of responsibility and leadership in taking the necessary steps to help the states remedy their situations while he postures about "poor little me, I won the election, but they cheated" was wearing thin before the rush on the Capitol Building that he fomented. "Fight! Fight! Fight!" (His words, not mine.) I don't think I need a source here, as those words were straight from the horse's mouth.)
Agreed, except about having enough patriotic Republicans to get a conviction. I just don't have confidence they can find the 12 that is needed.
But...remember there will be a new Congress after Jan. 20, and that means more Democrats to vote for conviction. That and along with more moderate Republicans who are getting tired of his seditious antics and are horrified at his supporters insurrection, it may just fly.
Thank you for posting this. I was not aware that a President can be impeached after they leave the office. I learned something.
Thinking of this problem logically I think Impeaching Trump might exacerbate his supporters?
Why should we not do what is right just to appease delusional criminals? Peaceful Trump supporters will remain peaceful, so I am assuming when you wondered what it would do to his supporters you were referring to the violent ones. Or, did you mean all Trump supporters, yourself included?
I meant any of Trump's supporters that have strong enough opinions and feeling to show up and protest, and yes riot for a cause they seem to believe in.
I do not support any form of violence for any reason. I do not support those that most likely will show up at the inauguration and get violent.
I did not say anything in regards to my own view in respect to should Congress go ahead with impeachment. I just shared a thoought. that impeaching Trump might exacerbate his supporters. I did not give an opinion one way or the other --- "Why we should not do what is right just to appease delusional criminals?"
I can see your point, I am all for doing anything we would traditionally do and pretty much handle what might happen. I hope as I did in 2016 that no one shows up to protest on Inauguration Day. However, we live in a country where we have the right to protest peacefully. I hope Trump supporters will be peaceful and be heard due to numbers, not violence.
I have no problem with protesters and actually admire those who stand up for their beliefs by lawfully working within the system to create change. However, those who are protesting because they think the election was stolen are simply furthering propaganda created by Trump. They still have a right to peacefully protest; I just think they are dangerously wrong to help keep alive the delusions of a mad man.
Actually, in part, we agree. I believe protests can lead to change if peaceful and need to be completely lawful. You may want to look at the problem as if you were outside the box. The people that are showing up for Trump have different views. Some really feel Trump is fully telling the full truth about voter fraud, and at this point, they don't care about seeing facts. Some are hung up on the facts just might be there, and they want all avenues investigated. They are not willing to listen to a blanketed media explanation that there is no there... They feel they deserve an investigation and at this point do not respect the Representatives in Washington or their state governments.
I had just hoped some sort of common sense could have prevailed. Just my opinion, but a short investigation may have shown many that their voices were being heard. Now, we have something that is just developed into something I never thought I would see, violent Americans fighting other Americans. This is only going to get worse. Many have been pushed too hard, and are not willing to listen or be pushed any further.
The politicians are playing one against another. Have you noticed much of what is being talked about is how unsafe "they felt", what danger "they were in"? Is there any mention of why these protesters showed up that day, what made them travel to Washington from all over the US? I feel the country is in a real crisis. And we don't have anyone in Washington that seems to have the know-how to stop a rolling tank!
Would it not have been easier to prove delusions false, if they are false? Instead of pushing at people that are not going to be pushed any longer.
The delusions have already been proven to be unfounded.
"The politicians are playing one against another."
At what point do we hold citizens responsible for their inability to discern truth from fantasy? This is not the first conspiracy theory swallowed by a considerable chunk of people. And, regardless, we cannot stop speaking truth, or avoid doing what is right, just to avoid angering those who are perpetually angry about something.
Clinton was impeached for lying about a blow job. There should be no question that Trump deserves to be impeached for his actions surrounding his election loss.. No question.
Please keep in mind, it is your opinion that some citizens are delusional in regard to the election outcome and that you feel all has been proven to be delusional. However, many are not willing to believe the election was not stolen due to fraud. Where does that leave us? You tell me
It's is just my opinion that the politicians are playing one against another. And a bit too large of a subject to go into on a chat...
"At what point do we hold citizens responsible for their inability to discern truth from fantasy? " You might start by realizing
that the other side fell they are speaking the truth --- Again where does that leave us?
I have no problem if Congress feels they need to impeach Trump. I have looked at this logically. I have once again pulled up rules of impeachment.
There is absolutely not enough time to impeach Trump a second time.
I listened to Alan. Dershowitz's opinion on the subject. He pointed out the legalities f a late impeachment, and that there just was not enough time, and that it would be totally unconstitutional.
So asks yourself why are the Dems proceeding? Could it be a political ploy to continue to stir up the once again hate? Yes, hate, IMO they certainly realize they are stirring up Trump supporters, and appeasing the "other side". Is this truly responsible Government, pitting citizens against one another. And at a time when emotions are high. It is time that we need sensible heads in Washington.
This is a cheap despicable political ploy... It will lead to violence, and we all can blame those that we hired to Govern, that has gone amuck.
I have no argument on a legal impeachment of Trump. I have a huge problem that at this point it appears it would be an illegal impeachment.
The Dems' know very well this is not the right time to pour more fuel on a fire. Common sense should rule while we have people willing to step up and fight for what they believe in.
One thing is clear we have hundreds of thousands of people that as you claim are delusional. They feel the other side is delusional. Again, where do we go from here? Pour on a shit load of fuel or step back and let the temperature cool down?
I guess we will see how this all plays out. I see no solution at this point because we have two sides well dug in. And we have few in Washington that are willing to just stop the BS for even a while...
"There should be no question that Trump deserves to be impeached for his actions surrounding his election loss. No question."
You might want to realize there are many on the right that there is no question Trump should not be impeached,
It would seem you just can't realize yes your opinion is important, but so are many other American's opinions.
It is a fact that no massive election fraud has been found. Time to accept reality and stop calling lies "opinions."
Again that is your fact, your option, maybe even mine. But it is very realistic to realize it is not the opinion of a great many American's. Just pointing out what is at this point very apparent. So how far does our opinion influence any that don't respect it?
I have simply been trying to make a point.
"But it is very realistic to realize it is not the opinion of a great many American's."
Yes, that is onvious. We must stop validating it, though, by calling for further investigarions. That only fuels the crazy that was invented whole cloth by our insane president.
Time to stop, or you become part of the problem. There is a reason even loyal Trump toadies are now flatly stating the election was not stolen. It's time to stop the dangerous appeasement of an insane president and his delusional supporters.
Are you going to keep feeding the fantasy?
"Just my opinion, but a short investigation may have shown many that their voices were being heard. " - What, in your opinion, did the DOJ and Bill Barr do prior to him announcing their was "no there, there"? Why does that no qualify as a "short investigation"
"Is there any mention of why these protesters showed up that day, what made them travel to Washington from all over the US? " - Yes, the President called them to show up for the previous two weeks. He spoke, they listened.
There is no question Trump has put America in a real crisis, on that we agree. I do not agree that there is "nobody" in Washington to do something about it. The Democrats, independents, and a few Republicans (who were shook out of their delusion by the coup attempt) are doing something about it.
You write " 'They' feel they deserve an investigation and at this point do not respect the Representatives in Washington or their state governments. " and I would add to that list judges. Who then is left to conduct this "investigation"? Giuliani? Sydney Powell? Face it Sharlee, 'they' will only believe someone who says there was widespread fraud.
"Would it not have been easier to prove delusions false" - Apparently no -
Since it has been proved false over and over again by almost uncountable authorities to the satisfaction of everybody but Trump supporters.
Anything short of that will be looked at as invalid by Trumpers.
And finally, was this written to minimize the danger of death the lawmakers faced? "The politicians are playing one against another. Have you noticed much of what is being talked about is how unsafe "they felt", what danger "they were in"? "
Sharlee, I think they did. They had election recounts and recounts of recounts. Then REPUBLICAN Secretaries of State verified that their elections were honest and there was no voter fraud. Ratffensperger in GA, for one, was threatened and then called by Trump and ordered to "find him" the votes he needed. What more do you think might have been done? I don't believe anything short of taking away votes from registered voters and giving them to Trump would have satisfied these hardheads.
Yes, I was surprised as well.
As to exacerbating his supporters, I compare that to the US policy of never giving into a terrorists demands. That policy has probably led to fewer demands, but unfortunately it has probably also led to some hostages being killed.
The question then is, did the policy lead ultimately to fewer hostages in total being killed. All one can hope for is that the answer is yes.
And yes, I think you are probably right, it will exacerbate them because so many of them have been radicalized already.
I hope Trump supporters will be peaceful, violence is not the way to be heard. I think numbers speak louder than violence.
We will start seeing how this will come down shortly. Apparently, the Internet is ablaze with plans from those who really don't want to see Trump go to cause lot's of violence starting the 17th. Not sure why that date, but that is what I heard.
I doubt Trump will listen to them but both Barr and the White House lawyer told him it was a really bad idea to self-pardon. But with things like the DC attorney general now threatening to investigate and, if necessary, take to court people like Trump, Jr., and Giuliani for inciting to riot.
I finally heard the words Junior and G spoke and those are, without a doubt, well within the meaning of "incite". You have to string a bunch of Trump's statements to get to the context where he was wanting to happen what did happen.
It will be whole different story if the FBI finds that there was pre-planning and coordination days ahead of the attempted coup and it leads back to Trump.
Wednesday is the day the first President of the United States will be impeached twice. Trump loves records and being the "only one". I think he got what he wanted.
Not sure about Wednesday, the Senate is not in session until I believe Jan 19th. It seems this impeachment is political in nature, once again it will be up to the Senate. I would think if the Dems intend to go ahead with the impeachment they might wait until after Trump has left office. Timing is against them, and I venture to say they know this and are showboating. Which in my opinion at this time the country does not need this kind of politicking. It's perfectly what has so many furious.
It would seem they are very serious about impeaching Trump. So they can have at it. Let the chips fall where they may.
I have searched for and so far have been unsuccessful in finding a reference on whether a president can be "impeached" (the House part) after they leave office. It is clear they can be convicted (the Senate part) after they leave office.
Unless Trump resigns or Pence removes him via the 25th Amendment (both seem very unlikely), the House will "impeach" him on Wednesday, they have enough votes including some Republican ones. Their feeling, as is mine, is that Trump, who instigated the attack on the Capital, must be held accountable. Based on your "showboating" reference, I am guessing you are not one of those.
As to "political in nature", yes, all impeachments are political in nature, by definition. It can't be anything else but.
The question is will McConnell bring the Senate back before the 19th to hold a trial while he has the majority, or will he forgo that and turn it over to Schumer, when the Democrats will hold the majority, after Biden is sworn in.
To me, it really doesn't make a difference - the goal is to prevent Trump from ever again holding office. Putting Trump in jail won't do the trick because politicians have won elections before from behind bars. No, the House and the Senate need to vote to bar him from ever doing to America what he has done so far.
Bottom line, someone must be held accountable for the coup that took place on Jan 6, 2021, too steal a phrase, a day that will live in infamy.
Have you listened to the full speech Trump gave at the rally? If not you may want to listen to it. Not sure any of what he said could be enough to say he incited a riot? He did go on and on about voter fraud, but he also talked about much much more.
In my view, we have some very big problems brewing that will affect the country much more than we can imagine. It might be time for all to realize this division has come to a boiling point, and we don't have a government in place that is for the people. They are for themselves, keeping themselves in power, and doing so by dividing the country. My gosh just look at the little they really do.
I am sickened at the thought of where America has ended up...
Hmm . . ., I watched his rally—live. And it is my opinion that he did incite the mob. Repeating 38* claims of fraud, (*that was a pundit's count, I didn't count them), bringing the rally-goers to a frothing fevered pitch, certainly equates to "inciting" in my mind. His body language, his raising of his arms in rhythm with their crescendos of approval, the look of appreciation on his face for the adulation of his supporters all point to incitement for me
I don't need specific black and white words. I watched the effect. I think Pres. Trump incited this rally of supporters to act. He didn't need to actually say to go forth and sack the Capitol to be guilty. In my opinion, of course.
I also started to watch the rally, halfway through I told my husband let's go for a walk. Trump was certainly headed down a path that was provoking. I did not see the entire rally until after the riot. One could see Trump wa,s not in his usual rally state of mind. He was blatantly pissed off and ranting.
In the comment you have responded to I was pointing out that I could not go out on a limb and say one way or another that it was enough to incite a riot. I think it would be up to a given individual. I was not incited, I was disgusted with his ranting. However, as for me, I turned it off. It certainly could incite an individual to become very angry if they selected to listen to all his accusations of voter fraud. I am just not willing to say it incited the majority of that crowd. If you want my opinion many traveled to Washington to cause problems. Trump's speech had little to do with what they went there intending to do.
Hopefully, I put this statement into a better context ---"Not sure any of what he said could be enough to say he incited a riot? He did go on and on about voter fraud, but he also talked about much much more".
". . . I was not incited, I was disgusted . . ."
That was also what I felt as I watched it. But . . . I was watching it from the comfort of my home, with no 'skin in the game.' I can easily imagine that the rally-goers, that made a great effort to get there and came with emotions high in the moment, felt something different.
I just had another listen to the speech in full. Listening for any words that were strong and could truly be more than a dog whistle. It would seem listening to the speech he was differently addressing only his supporters, not including all American's. He spoke strongly on what he felt he accomplished, and what the crowd could expect to lose under Biden. He made the crowd feel included, by pointing out that they built America. He over and over-claimed the election was stolen. In closing, he did bring up the word "fight". First stating "we fight like hell" and then "and you need to fight like hell". He asked the crowd to march to the Capitol and "give support to those that would need it".
I agree if one were there with all the excitement of the day, and some depending on the individual certainly could be incited start trouble. I feel many preplanned the attack.
I have no thoughts on the "pre-planned" part. I wouldn't doubt it, and feel it is probably true, but the "who" is something I have no opinion on. For some reason, I don't feel the administration would be involved in any pre-planning of the assault, but that is just a thought.
It seems we agree on Trump's effect, (and responsibility), in the rally part of your comment.
I am not yet willing to go as far as accuse Trump of directly conspiring with the seditionists, but he is a master manipulator; after all, he talked 70,000,000 people into voting for him.
Consider that he has been agitating for something like this since well before the election. He has been prepping the ground with his lies about a rigged election. After he actually did lose he then changed his tune to "the election was stolen, I won by a landslide, and YOU need to help me take it back".
What do you think these people, who he has been working on for two months, was going to do when Trump called them together in Washington D.C. on Jan 6th and told to "march" on the Capital.
No question in my mind he orchestrated the attack on the Capital with his rhetoric. The fact that he snuck "march peacefully" into his remarks on the 6th doesn't make up for all of the angry protestations he has made in the months before.
I see your point and appreciate the way you presented your comment. I agree that Trump is a manipulator, not sure I would say he is a master at it. I have always noted when he sought to manipulate a situation. I think he is transparent in that respect. It is for that reason I turned his rally off a third of the way through on Jan 6th. I felt I had been hearing his voter fraud speech for many months.
I feel many planned to attack the Capitol due to being exposed to him claiming the election was stolen.
His months of rhetoric certainly is responsible for some becoming violent. I am not sure or probably never will be sure if Trump felt the protest would turn violent or if he hoped it would. My gut tells me he did not want violence but wanted a huge crowd to be noted by all. I don't think we will ever know what Trump was thinking.
Did you not see the reports that Trump was obviously enjoying watching the insurrection on TV and could not understand why those around him were not pleased? Did you not hear him say, after the fact, "we love you," to the insurrectionists?
I think he could not care less about the deaths and destruction.
How said that what is the person's name that made that claim? And did you read the words before and after the "we love you"?
"I know your pain, I know you’re hurt. We had an election that was stolen from us. It was a landslide election and everyone knows it, especially the other side. But you have to go home now. We have to have peace. We have to have law and order. We have to respect our great people in law and order,” Trump posted on Twitter. “We don’t want anybody hurt. It’s a very tough period of time. There’s never been a time like this, where such a thing happened, where they could take it away from all of us. From me, from you, from our country. This was a fraudulent election, but we can’t play into the hands of these people. We have to have peace. So go home. We love you, you’re very special. We’ve seen what happens, you see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil. I know you how feel. But go home, and go home in peace.”
Yes, long after the attack began, resisting sending in the Guard and after tremendous pressure to act by Pence, the Cabinet and Republican party leaders.
Let alone reports that members of Congress were giving reconnaissance tours of the Capitol building to members of militia groups on January 5th.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/mikie-sherri … 06364.html
I put some research into the subject of who did what, and who was responsible for the ball being dropped. It was well known two weeks prior to the Jan 6th that the rally would take place, and would most likely attract a huge crowd. Hard to find factual statements with sources that ID themself. I was able to finally find an article that quotes Kash Patel, Miller's chief of staff.
"While Trump was less involved in giving orders Wednesday, he gave Miller the green light earlier in the week.
"The acting secretary and the president have spoken multiple times this week about the request for National Guard personnel in D.C.," said Kash Patel, Miller's chief of staff. "During these conversations, the president conveyed to the acting secretary that he should take any necessary steps to support civilian law enforcement requests in securing the Capitol and federal buildings."
The deployment of the National Guard was anything but immediate.
The Department of Defense is the lead federal agency in these situations. Pentagon officials said that law enforcement was overwhelmed and responses were slow because they believed the amount of law enforcement personnel leading up to Wednesday's events was adequate"
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did … ol-1560186
It was not Trump that dropped the ball it appears to be Miller, as well as D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser.
Your research must have missed the part where Trump was unavailable because he was glued to the television and couldn't be reached by aides during a national crisis.
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-w … ace-2021-1
No, but I read the transcript.
While unlike Junior and Guiliani, who called for violence directly, and Rep Brooks who came very close with his "kick them (the legislators) in the ass" encouragement, Trump did not say directly "go up there and storm the Capital".
But, when you put together his inflammatory speech in the weeks previously, his direction to show up on the 6th, and the violent rhetoric that was in his speech to a crowd he riled up himself, I think a reasonable jury would find him guilty. (After I read back and saw GA's post, he said it much better than I.)
And I agree with "I am sickened at the thought of where America has ended up..." - the difference being is I know who put us here.
The one thing what would defuse a lot of this is if Trump would come out and admit he has been lying all of this time and that the election was fair and that he lost.
I'm sorry I don't have my legal eagles at my beck and call anymore to answer your question about impeachment, but I don't believe a president can be impeached once he is out of office. The idea of impeachment is to get him out of office, but the trial and conviction after he is out is to keep him from ever being able to serve in that office again. Now that is my understanding, but if someone can find evidence to the contrary, I welcome the correction.
I wasn't aware of it either until I watched 60 Minutes. Yes, I believe that will exacerbate things even more, but I don't think this country should be held hostage in fear of stirring up the hornets again. I used to work at our State Capitol Complex (retired in 2017). I just hope my former coworkers and friends there stay safe because I've heard they are preparing for trouble.
I appreciate your comment. You always keep a very level head. I just posted a lengthy post to Pretty Panther. It is hard to discuss such a complicated subject on a chat. But I hoped to offer an opinion. I made an attempt to look at the problem from all sides. While not showing any bias. I think the time has come that we all back up a bit and consider all sides. Because in the end, this is becoming very serious. Please have a look at the comment I left Pretty... I would appreciate your viewing it.
I'm sorry, but referring to holding a president accountable for his potentially criminal behavior as a "cheap despicable political ploy" shows you are not succeeding in your attempt to be unbiased. What would Trump have to do to warrant impeachment, in your mind? Kill someone? One could argue he is directly responsible for inciting murder.
This comment was just a short message to MIZBEJABBERS. You certainly did get your point across with your comment to me. I read it I responded. best I could to your opinion. I certainly am very informed about how you feel about the impeachment, and lots more. We disagree on the timing of the impeachment, and that I see it as a political ploy just due to it looks as if it would be against the constitution, and it would seem there is just is not enough time to conduct an impeachment hearing. If it is lawful and they can pull it off, they can have at it.
I think the act will cause a great divide (which it is apparent many want)and could increase the possibility of violent riots. But, many are hopeful for more red meat to chat about...
"But, many are hopeful for more red meat to chat about..."
Not me, I want to never see or hear from Donald Trump again. I'd prefer to erase him forever from my thoughts, and even from my memory. But a narcissist of his magnitude will not go away on his own. He must be impeached so he can never run for office again.
It's pretty sad that private companies recognize how dangerous he is and have the wherewithal to do something about it, but not our elected officials.
I used the word many to make sure I did not point a finger at anyone. And the red meat was not Trump, it was impeachment the very act. I can understand your thought in regard to stopping him from running again. However, the Dems are in a tight spot and only have a double-edged knife to weaponize.
Can't see the country winning with more fuel being added to a really big fire. This is where I wish we had level headed people in Washington. IMO the Dems are politicking with lives. However, their indignation was very predictable. Not unexpected. They always sink low and could care less about the consequences. Never have, never will.
My Gawd, Trump incited an insurrection at the Capitol that resulted in multiple deaths and you think it's the Dems who "always sink low and could care less about the consequences."
You said exactly what I was thinking. Trump incited an armed coup that led to five deaths and Shar thinks it's the Dems' fault.
The first thing a cult does is tell you everyone else is lying. The fact that all Trump supporters fell for Trump's fraud lies because they thought GOP election officials, Republican judges, the FBI headed by a Republican, and the DOJ headed by a very GOP partisan Bill Barr are all liars because they all disagreed with what their cult leader was saying is another one of the big reasons why this impeachment is a necessity.
Just my personal opinion. I would think you would have acknowledged I never defend Trump personally unless I find his words or actions may have been misrepresented by media. I have several times added my thoughts on the rally that was held on Jan 6th. I saw a pissed off Trump and could see how it could incite some ( not all). And I did ask that some of what people were posting here be backed up with sources due to some statements Trump just did not make.
I think his words on the surface certainly could incite some individuals. I myself turned him off due to seeing how very mad he was, and that it was not what I had hoped to hear. I went out when I returned the rit was taking place. My, neighbor informed me of what was occurring.
I guess Mitch McConnell is sinking along with the Democrats because he just came out and said he is "pleased" the Democrats are impeaching Trump.
And with ridiculous statement, you show your true colors "They always sink low and could care less about the consequences. Never have, never will." You have drunk Trump's Kool-Aid.
Oh yes, the #3 Republican in the House is joining your hated Dems, how can that be? Could it be that you are wrong
Last night Hannity stated "I spoke personally with Mitch McConnell representative and he claimed the New York Times article is inaccurate, and Mitch McConnell did not offer the opinion they printed.
I would think at this point we are owed a statement for Mitch McConnell. I am hopeful he will step up and give a press statement.
I have no problem moving ahead with whatever the Government presents. in regards to a legal impeachment hearing. I do have a real problem with any media printing statements that may not be true. This to me is a worse form of an incitement than any we have heard from Trump. Trump can be held accountable due to the words that came from his mouth. At this point, the media should be providing facts and only facts. No leaks or statements twisted out of context.
I just read the Article of Impeachment. Personally, I think it is weak as written.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/11/politics … index.html
Because we have watched all of this unfold in real time over two months, to those who hold my point of view, the case against Trump is overwhelming. But the written charge must present a case that is equally overwhelming for the benefit of those who might wonder what all of the fuss is about.
I don't think it does that. I think it just presumes everybody already knows the crimes that have been committed and I don't think they do - especially if all they consume is information from the right. (Such as Tucker Carlson saying this isn't impeachable.)
Blackburn, Lankford, and Johnson are hard no's also - they were selling the election fraud claims. Cassidy from Louisiana, Rand Paul and Tim Scott drank the Trump Kool-Aid. Cotton, Mike Lee and Rick Scott just hate anything Democratic. Rubio is fighting Hawley and Cruz to be Trump's top lapdog.
Cornyn and Thune could be interesting.
You may have read the FBI is warning about a plan to have armed protesters swarm all 50 state capitols on Inauguration Day.
In addition, the report of 4,000 armed militia planning to surround the U.S. Capitol.
If more violence does erupt next Wednesday, you can bet the House will send over the article of impeachment to the Senate within days. Plenty of Republican Senators will have a hard time rejecting it.
Also, news reports are now saying that McConnell favors impeachment to save what's left of the party. Or that he's terrified what Trump rioters will do next Wednesday.
On top of that, three House members were linked to the sedition conspiracy by one of the rioters. I can see them being charged with sedition now.
I think, based on the evidence coming out, that because of weeks of Trump's lies, exhortations to do something to help him win, his throwing fuel on the fire it will be shown this invasion was pre-planned by members of Trump's militia. They knew they were being asked to stop the certification and so they prepared to do just that by bringing zip ties to tie up congresspeople, guns, bombs of various sorts, and bludgeoning instruments to help assault the Capital.
Many of us said four years ago, and many times since, that Trump was a Clear & Present Danger to America, that he was an existential threat to democracy itself. It was easy to tell by looking at his past, how he ran his campaign, and how terrible his character was.
And now look at what his supporters and enablers have wrought. What happened on the 6th rests squarely on their shoulders. It was their willingness to accept his lies as truths and go forcefully to the mat to defend his indefensible actions that led directly to almost bringing down our government.
Since then, it was confirmed that he has never had a moral compass and that his only goal as president was to enrich himself and his family. Normally, that phrase would end with "and friends", but he has none.
As can be, of all people, Mitch McConnell. He just came out saying he was "pleased" the Democrats were impeaching Trump. He wants to purge the Republican Party of anything Trump. Some are now thinking he may vote to impeach to save the Republican Party.
Should Trump be impeached? Of course he should. Republicans should want it to save their party from themselves. Americans want it to 1) punish an insurrectionist, 2) prevent him from ever doing it again, and 3) prove to the world that the Impeachment Clause in our Constitution actually works. The World wants it in order to bring back a stable world order that Trump ripped asunder.
Who is responsible for Jan 6, 2021? A whole host of people. They worked together, sometimes in concert but often not, to set the stage such that the coup attempt was inevitable.
First and foremost is Donald Trump. Simply put, no Trump, no coup attempt. He spent 4 years cultivating and giving space to the far-right extremist who gathered at the Capitol to conduct their insurrection. His hate speech, his inflammatory speech, his constant lying, his Big Lie about winning the 2020 election, and finally his call to all those who wanted to "save the nation" to gather for his pity party about having the election "stolen" and then sent to the Capitol to do something about it - which they did.
But also complicit is the right-wing media, led by Fox Opinion, that spent 4 years amplifying Trump's, passing on Trump's inflammatory lies, adding to them with their own real fake news, willingly propagating Trump's Big Lie about winning the 2020 election. Without the right-wing media fanning the flames, much of the tinder which set the coup on fire would have been missing.
You also have so many of the Republican Congress who passed on or even encouraged Trump's most outrageous abuses of power, passing up the chance to be heroes by convicting Trump in the first impeachment, by assisting Trump in propagating the Big Lie about winning the 2020 election, and if several cases actually assisting the insurrectionists in their coup attempt. Without their active help, Trump could not have had his coup which he so desperately needed to overthrow the election and therefore the government.
Finally, you have the co-conspirators that make up at least 70% of those who identify Republican, including the pro-Trumpers in this forum. They decided, for unknown reasons, to suspend their critical thinking and bought into almost ever lie Trump promulgated including the Big Lie about winning the 2020 election. They amplified this lie on all social media platforms, including this forum, and gave the insurrectionists succor and support to do their foreseeable dirty deed on Jan 6. Again, without the active support of this mass of so-called patriots the take-over of the Capitol would not have happened.
If they've got Cheney and McConnell, that likely means Thune and Cornyn will be aboard as well. That opens things up significantly if the leaders in the Senate are going to go against Trump's base.
They should have done this during the first impeachment, but McConnell, facing re-election, probably didn't want to battle Trump at that point.
Last week, after Trump was banned from social media, election misinformation posts decreased by 73%. Just goes to show how much disinformation originated with him.
While Trump should handle losing gracefully, it seems that attacks against him are personal. It is like the other side is out for blood (with being banned from social media, the impeachment, his businesses being attacked, etc.).
I think instead the other side is opposed to the violent overthrow of a legal government.
And why shouldn't it be personal, Mark? He led an insurrection against the United States of America, for goodness sake. How can I say that?
1. Because absent Trump and his Big Lie about losing the election there would have not been an attempted coup.
2. If Trump had not called his militia to assemble at the Capitol and to "take back America", there would not have been an attempted coup and a dead capitol policeman.
He brought all of this on himself and has only himself to blame.
"And why shouldn't it be personal, Mark? He led an insurrection against the United States of America, for goodness sake. How can I say that"
This has not been proved in any respect.
Of course Trump led it. He:
- Set up a rally on certification day.
- Urged his cult followers to attend.
- Urged them to march on Capitol Hill.
- Incited them with inflammatory rhetoric.
- Refused to deploy the National Guard.
- Refused to condemn the riot until a week later, only after legal threats.
Yes, a rally was planned for Jan 6th
The President urged supporters to attend
He did say walk peacefully to the Capitol
He spoke his opinion
A week before the rally he met with Miller and gave hin the
full authority to make the decision on deploying the Guard.
"While Trump was less involved in giving orders Wednesday, he gave Miller the green light earlier in the week.
"The acting secretary and the president have spoken multiple times this week about the request for National Guard personnel in D.C.," said Kash Patel, Miller's chief of staff. "During these conversations, the president conveyed to the acting secretary that he should take any necessary steps to support civilian law enforcement requests in securing the Capitol and federal buildings." https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did … ol-1560186
He never refused to condemn the riot. He came out with a statement on the day it happened, and two more videos the day after. These can be found in full on youtube.
All false or misleading. It was Pence who gave the order. WIDELY REPORTED. Your link has nothing to do with the order.
His statement that day did not condemn the riot. He simply said -- after tremendous public pressure -- to stop the violence because his people were assaulting police officers.
But your peaceful President did say to the rioters, "We love you".
My link actually proves president Trump met with Miller's chief of staff.
"While Trump was less involved in giving orders Wednesday, he gave Miller the green light earlier in the week. During these conversations, the president conveyed to the acting secretary that he should take any necessary steps to support civilian law enforcement requests in securing the Capitol and federal buildings. A face, A name, A fact...
The fact that the two had a meeting doesn't mean diddly.
It is a fact that Pence -- not Miller -- authorized the deployment because Trump would not.
It was Pence that spoke with Miller and they made the decision to send in the troops. Miller had the authority. Did he drop the ball, and not want to make the decision, and decided to call Pence. Who knows. Miller was told by Trump a week earlier Quote from Kash Patel, Newsweek --- " he should take any necessary steps to support civilian law enforcement requests in securing the Capitol and federal buildings. "
An "acting" defense secretary is not a higher authority than the Vice President of the United States.
I never implied a VP is higher than the President.
Like I said not sure why Miller called Pence, he was told by the president a week prior to the rally to handle or take necessary steps " he should take any necessary steps to "support civilian law enforcement requests in securing the Capitol and federal buildings. "
This could be no more clear. Miller dropped the ball, he did not apparently have the stuffing to do what he was told to do. Pence need have never been called.
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/nationa … ill-riots/
My point has eluted you. The president gave his order a week before the rally. Very simply the VP did not need to be called and actually was not until minutes after Miller made the decision to send in the troops.
"Shortly after activating the additional Guardsmen, Miller spoke with congressional leaders and Vice President Mike Pence about the decision, Hoffman said. Earlier in the week, Miller had received guidance directly from Trump that he should take any necessary steps to support law enforcement, Hoffman added."
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/0 … ton-455822
Your link "proves" no such thing, if fact it proves the opposite. Your whole case rests on whether Patel, a Trump loyalist, is telling the truth. Since the whole suite of Trump loyalists have been proven to lie over and over again, I don't take him at his word.
Tell me, why did Trump lie when he tweeted that "I immediately ordered the National Guard and federal law enforcement to secure the building and expel the intruders."? Can you answer me that?
It rests on a man that has given a statement in regards to what he can varify. Miller has in no respect claimed Patel's account is not true. We have a human with a face, and name-giving his account. In my book, this far outweighs a story by an unnamed source.
Another source to back up Patel --- "Shortly after activating the additional Guardsmen, Miller spoke with congressional leaders and Vice President Mike Pence about the decision, Hoffman said. Earlier in the week, Miller had received guidance directly from Trump that he should take any necessary steps to support law enforcement, Hoffman added." https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/0 … ton-455822
Could you provide the tweet where Trump stated ---"I immediately ordered the National Guard and federal law enforcement to secure the building and expel the intruders"?
Yes, he did say the word "peacefully". But it was hidden among thousands of other words designed to inflame the emotions of his cult.
This on top of two months of other highly inflammatory language urging his supporters to "take back America" and "stop the Democrats from stealing the election." They heard him and they tried, killing a cop along the way.
"“Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore and that’s what this is all about. To use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with, we will stop the steal.” - Trump says to an angry mob he assembled and sent to the Capitol
While Trump quietly spoke the word "peacefully" once or twice, he loudly spoke the word "fight" dozens of times occasionally emphasizing it by punching like a boxer or "fight like hell". This with the backdrop of previous claims by Trump that his "supporters might one day get violent". (I remember hearing that one)
If you were riled up in that crowd, Sharlee, how would you interpret these words? "“We fight like hell and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.” (please don't say he was joking)
or "“We want to go back, and we want to get this right because we’re going to have somebody in there that should not be in there and our country will be destroyed, and we’re not going to stand for that.”
or “Nobody knows what the hell is going on. There’s never been anything like this. We will not let them silence your voices. We’re not going to let it happen. Not going to let it happen.” and the crowd chanted Fight for Trump and then took off to storm the Capitol. (Some took off earlier, the police have found, to collect the weapons and implements they were going to use to break into the Capital.
Here is some of the items rioters brought to the so-called "peaceful protest" you say Trump wanted - https://www.washingtonian.com/2021/01/1 … itol-riot/
"Under battle flags bearing Donald Trump’s name, the Capitol’s attackers pinned a bloodied police officer in a doorway, his twisted face and screams captured on video. They mortally wounded another officer with a blunt weapon and body-slammed a third over a railing into the crowd.
“Hang Mike Pence!” the insurrectionists chanted as they pressed inside, beating police with pipes. " from https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-p … s-turn-up/
Reasonable people understand that Trump caused all of this. No Trump, no coup. Unreasonable people think Trump did the right thing.
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