Impeachment Dem's Going For A Doubleheader...
So far it is obvious President Donald Trump is extremely unlikely to resign in the final few days of his presidency. And VP Pence is equally unlikely to force him out by invoking the 25th amendment of the Constitution, despite calls from the Democrats to do so.
So, in the wake of last week’s insurrection at the US Capitol, which left five people dead and the Trump White House in free fall, the final option available to Washington lawmakers is to push ahead with a second impeachment. To some, this could appear as a final way to inflict punishment for their perception that in some respects he encouraging the protesters to riot at the Capitol on Jan 6th.
The House Democrats introduced an article of impeachment against Trump today for “inciting violence against the government of the United States”. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said the Democrats “will proceed” with impeachment proceedings this week if Vice President Mike Pence does not respond to a separate resolution calling for the Cabinet to invoke the 25th amendment.
What are your feelings on impeaching President Trump in regard to allegations of inciting violence against the government of the United States? Is there evidence that can prove the president intended to incite violence?
Do you feel there will be any type of fallout if the Dems go-ahead with impeachment proceedings?
And lastly and simply, if they go ahead with the impeachment will it further divide the country?
President Trump's Jan 6th Rally Speech --- In full
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OXFmnTtO6sYes, it will further divide the country and Pence may (choose to) be persuaded to invoke the 25th amendment, given that he is an establishment politician who has the backbone of a worm.
I am not a fan of Pence but the one time he stood up against Trump to defend the Constitution is not the time to describe him as having the backbone of a worm.
Brett Baier interviewed Democrat Joe Manchin tonight on his views about the impeachment drive.
I completely agree with him that now is not the time. It will hamper Pres. Biden from a legitimate start of his first 100 days agenda.
I can only hope more Democrats can be persuaded to Manchin's view.
Take a look, what do you think?
GAI don't know, GA. How bad does it have to get for Trump to suffer real consequences for his behavior? I guess worse than inciting insurrection that resulted in death, for some people. I don't see a trial taking long at all. Everyone has seen most of the evidence already.
I didn't hear Manchin saying Pres. Trump should not be charged if Congress wanted to do it. I understood him to be saying that the action didn't have to happen immediately. I agree with his thoughts that this will sidetrack Pres. Biden's agenda until after the turmoil of another impeachment effort. I certainly don't think this will be the quick execution that the Democrats think it will be. They might be able to get the House to impeach in a few days, but finishing the job will take weeks, if not months.
Rather than Biden having the opportunity to start his administration with efforts to promote unity and healing, he will have to follow behind another political circus. It is my thought that regardless of how one feels about impeachment, and with the current political environment of our nation's citizens, it will most definitely be a circus.
At the new administration's launch, the most important time when our politicians should be focused on finding some way to try to work together, it will instead be faced with a political fight that causes even more division by pitting party against party—with no possible middle-ground for either side.
I don't see it as the most important thing being that Pres. Trump suffer consequences, I see the most important matter being what is best for our nation. And I don't see the new administration starting with another tremendously divisive issue as being the best choice.
GASigh...I don't think the anger surrounding the election will diminish just because impeachment is delayed or doesn't happen, nor do I think a few weeks is very long when you consider the gravity of the situation. Look how much the Clinton administration managed to get done during his lengthy impeachment.
I understand your position, and in your case, I think your position is based on genuine concern for the country rather than partisan rationalizations. I just tthink, for once, we must take a stand against this ugly, self-serving, brazenly criminal president. Enough!Oh the stand has been taken, it was taken when he came down the escalator to announce his entry into the candidate pool.
Yes, I am aware that you have fully embraced every conspiracy theory in defense of the lying seditionist. God will reward you for your "faith" in your idol, right? Are you sure you're on the right side?
Of course you are.
You are right about my motivation, but we just disagree on the importance and danger of immediate vengeance.
. . .
. . . wait,
Yes, I did purposely say "vengeance," because that is how I think almost half of our nation will see it. That is also how I see it. It may be considered deserved vengeance, but the pursuit of it now, adding to the serious national problem we already have is wrong. Rather than focus on what we should be doing to move forward, the focus will be on getting our pound of flesh.
I would compare this Democrat move to that old saying about 'Cutting off your nose just to spite your face,' except that although it may be the Democrats' nose, it is the nation's face.
His rally and post-election actions have upset me enough to support impeachment, but just not at this juncture. I think it is the wrong priority.
Unfortunately, I think it is just more of the same ol' politics that brought us to Trump, and to this point. Our politicians, (and us), haven't learned a damn thing. Half our nation is gleeful, and half feel betrayed. So what do the Democrats decide is their first priority? "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead!'
GAVery well said... agree, and I too feel your last paragraph hits the mark.
Couldn't disagree more. The faster we get it over with, the better and faster we can move on.
And you are hopeful we will move on? "Is it realistic to think all of us? To quote GA --- "Half our nation is gleeful, and half feel betrayed. So what do the Democrats decide is their first priority? "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead!'"
First of all, as you are fond of saying, that is just GA's opinion. Second, it is time we stop giving any validation at all to lies and extremists. So what if those who have bought into Trump's fantasy are upset? They are wrong. We should simply do what is right and not validate them because we fear their reaction.
I quoted GA maybe twice in the past. I am going, to be honest, and as polite as I can. I have become tired of your loftiness. Read your own comment... You appear to feel your opinion in some respect should be taken as the last word. It's your last word. "They are wrong" ... Pretty definitive statement in my view. Leave no room or respect for others that disagree.
" Just do what's right! " Yes, we should ignore all Trump supports, so easy, no problem.
I must say find your thought process very simplistic in regards to what we have brewing in the country today.
Like I said I have no problem moving forward with impeachment if it's lawful, and if it does not stamp on the Constitution. You see I STILL believe in the Constitution.I have not insulted you. I always laugh when people say "you think you are right." Do you not think your opinion is right? If not, why bother expressing it?
You always end up responding this way at some point in the discussion .
This is where I simply say "okay."I just did not say "you think you are right". I was careful to add proper and clear context to my statement about what I feel is true in the way you communicate.
" I am going, to be honest, and as polite as I can. I have become tired of your loftiness. Read your own comment... "
"You APPEAR to feel your opinion in some respect should be taken as the last word. It's YOUR last word. "They are wrong" ... Pretty definitive statement in my view. Leave no room or respect for others that disagree."
Could you point out the statement "you think you are right"? When you use words such as "they are wrong". It would seem lofty, and very much saying others are just wrong, and you are right.
I won't point it out again. It was a personal thought, and off subject. I stand corrected.
Your comment, to me, illustrates the point I am trying to make. Trump will be out of office and gone before any impeachment resolution could possibly happen, yet that is not enough for you. Even though it appears that impeachment is possible after he has left office, you must have your vengeance before you can move on.
GAI don't want vengeance. I want him to never be able run for office again. However that happens is fine with me as long as it is legal and right.
Vengeance implies I have a personal beef with hum, which I do not. As I have been saying from the beginning, he is a lying, malignant narcissist not fit for office and is dangerous.Your response suggests that Trump bears no responsibility and should face no consequences for the attack on Capitol Hill.
Really? I can only ask if you have been following this thread at all.
Would it matter if I went back and counted the multiple times I have said I could support impeachment, or that I thought Trump incited his rally-goers, or that I thought he needed to be held accountable?
If your comment is what you have taken from my comments it probably wouldn't matter at all to bring those things to your attention. It seems you are stuck in that with me or agin' me' mindset.
This is clearly an instance where an "I'm sorry, you are right." mea culpa would be most appropriate. Hmm. . . should that come from me, or you?
GA
Maybe to some it is, but to the rest of us it is about accountability. You agree he incited that violence. He is still in charge. He still has the same rhetoric. There are multiple threats of violence for the days to come.
Also, again, he is in charge. He is in charge of the DOJ, military and so on. Those are his followers. Do you trust the investigations, do you trust justice will be done?
Plus, pardons? More "rallies" or worse?None of your listed worries will be affected by the impeachment effort. Even if he is impeached on 1 day, he is still president and still has those powers until he's convicted and removed from office.
My point is that you, (you and the "some of us" you speak of), can have your accountability, and your vengeance, and still put the nation's, and Pres. Biden's, needs first.
I would bet that Pres. Biden, (if only privately), is thinking the same thing. His dash from the starting blocks of his presidency will be bogged down by the drag of the ball and chain of the problems of this impeachment effort.
He could have the Senate focusing on his nominees, instead, they will be second on the agenda. (No, I do not believe our politicians can chew gum and walk at the same time).
He could reach for the public's attention, starting from Day 1, with his plans and ideas to address some of what divides us. Instead, he will have to fight for any air time, behind the ongoing impeachment, to grab for just a piece of the public's attention.
Think about it. The 7 o'clock news is on. What are they going to give the most attention, the slate of nominees presented to the Senate—to consider when they can get around to it, or a blow-by-blow recap of the political impeachment battle on the Senate floor?
What gets a Senate priority, from Day 1, Garland's AG nomination, or a political sideshow of opening remarks on the Senate floor from all those righteous Democrat leaders that will demand their 15 minutes in the sun? Surely you remember how that played out in the Senate Impeachment trial?
All the while, our new president will be sitting in the Oval office, stuck in second place in the public's, (and the politicians), attention.
I don't think he will agree that getting that pound of flesh, now, is more important than getting his nominees in place and on the job.
GAI do believe in accountability. I think those Capital police who let the protestors into the Capital and then opened up a door and let them out should be held accountable. Maybe something should be done for all of them that posed for selfies with the protestors.
I think the protestors from the capital should get what the protesters over the summer got...let go.
"Prosecutors dismiss looting, rioting charges against hundreds of protesters across U.S."
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 … es-agains/
I would like you to point to any part in the speech by President Donald Trump that incites violence. Everyone on the left has failed this request.
I trust the Mueller investigation came to the right conclusion.
Emotions are high right now. The left thinks when President Donald Trump leave office everything will be just lovely. They seem to believe those on the right and left will simply join hand and sing Kumbaya and praise biden.
This won't happen.
Now, I've said this before and I'll say it again. This will be just the beginning. They are trying to punish Trump supporters and silence them. This is not going to go well. These are people in the millions. There are many former military in their ranks. Do you know what that means? These are people who know military combat tactics, how to organize, operate the weapons in the US military arsenal, create a chain of command, mission plans and more. Trust me, the people I was with and met at the rally had quite a bit of combat experience among them.
If the left doesn't back off and soon. It is going to get real ugly. What happened at the Capital will look like good time. You can't try to punish and silence millions of people without expecting some strong push back.
So, I think it is up to the left and how they handle things. If you have millions of people who believe the system fraudulent to keep Democrats in power at all costs. Things will get realI second Mike's challenge for you to "point out where the President incited violence" in his speech. Go!
Dems fighting words, Mike.
None of us on the "other side" is going to be intimidated by those that seek that the country be ruled by a minority of the populace.
The Right is not going to get its way by throwing out paramilitary threats.
Is this all about the "True Americans"? Why not cut through all the jumbo jumbo? This has all stemmed as a result of urban centers and ethnic voters nullifying the desire of Trump voters. I can see the frustration of the Right increasing as that influence is going to broaden in the future.
My millions say that the Right and their claims are fraudulent, so what of this?
The voters have spoken Mike, and in large enough numbers to make the message loud and clear. None of us dare r sist the idea of democracy and majority rule in selecting our leaders or there is going to b a lot more trouble than just the Right becoming indignant."None of us dare r sist the idea of democracy and majority rule in selecting our leaders"
That is the reason election fraud is such a serious thing. You say the people have spoken, but I want the legal American citizen, who is alive, and can vote legally to choose the leader of the free world.
I think with the significant amount of fraud that took place during this presidential election, we don't know who spoke.
If the Democrats were smart, and they're not, they would work to gather facts and show the election was fair. But, they're not going to do such a thing, because it wasn't. They would have an investigation. That would go far into calming down the millions of people on the right. But I don't think they will have such an investigation, because they know it was fraudulent. They fear the findings of such an investigation.
So, again, we have a lackluster president and vice president in office because of fraud. Have an investigation and prove me wrong. I doubt it will happen.
This whole affair reeks to high heaven from the outset.
Trump has lost the election, there is no evidence of voter fraud and his supporters were not interested in a fair election only one that insured that Trump would win.
Well, GA, for Conservatives and Republicans, the events of the last few days has definitely tarnished the brand.
I started wanting to let all of this go because of the brevity associated with Trump's administration, but no more.
Trump, as well as co-conspirators in Congress itself and their rag tag mobs are involved in more than just a riot, based on the symbolism and the danger posed to the national legislative body. This cannot go unpunished. I want mass arrests, vigorous prosecution and maximum penalties. Those legislators to be should be denied their seats and those already part of the body should be expelled.I don't buy the idea that this rabble are just patriots letting off a little steam. An example needs to be set as the danger is not yet abated due to Biden's upcoming inauguration. Can I really trust Trump to make sure that the lax policing that we saw on January 6th won't occur again?
I don't care about the "other half", no more than they cared about the other side in 2016. If the other half is truly wanting to win at any cost, why should I care about their opinion?
I want the hammer brought down with great ferocity if the Right winged rubbish threatens the Republic and our democracy in such a way again.
In 250 years, never has such an outrage been witnessed by the American people.You are right Cred, Conservatives and Republicans have been tarnished by this Capitol Hill event. However, after that event, I never wanted to just let it all go. I believe there must be accountability so that ex-president Trump doesn't ride off into the sunset any some credibility left among his supporters.
He will always have credibility among his hardcore base. I don't think there is anything we can do about that. But I do think time and appropriate accountability will have an effect on most of his non-hardcore supporters. So, we don't disagree on the need for accountability.
But I do disagree with the rest of your statement. It is an angry demand for retribution, or revenge, or justice—pick whichever description suits you.
I am glad that the authorities are tracking down and charging all the participants they can identify. Even though I would make a snarky remark about why the same effort wasn't applied to the year's protesters/rioters, (similar video evidence to work with), that doesn't change that I think it is right to go after those they identify as lawbreakers in the Capitol Hill assault.
"I want mass arrests, vigorous prosecution and maximum penalties. "
You want your vengeance. Your justice. That is what is most important to you. What if your "want" isn't what is best for the nation, is it still the most important thing in your mind?
"Those legislators to be should be denied their seats and those already part of the body should be expelled."
So the voters that put them there can be damned. They did wrong in your opinion—so expel them. It doesn't matter to you that they didn't break any laws, you don't like their actions, so expel them, is that your position? Surprisingly, I agree that some of them don't deserve their seats, but I think that should be the voter's choice, not mine.
Also, I haven't heard anyone saying those folks were "just letting off a little steam." There probably have been some idiots saying that, but I haven't heard any representative voices saying it.
Also, I don't think you have to worry about Pres. Trump influencing any lax protection policies. I think his influence on anything is done. I doubt anyone in his administration or any law enforcement agency would follow any orders that diminished protection of the inauguration.
"I don't care about the "other half", no more than they cared about the other side in 2016. If the other half is truly wanting to win at any cost, why should I care about their opinion?"
And there you have it. What the nation needs is less important than what you want. Whether it is a fanatic segment or half the nation doesn't matter to you. That ain't right Cred.
Consider this. If the 'circumstances' were other than Trump-related, (but just as bad), and you could be shown that your desire would cause more harm than help, would you still make the same demand?
Going back to the starting point of this discussion, my contention is that an immediate impeachment process is more damaging to our nation than a later impeachment. And to dismiss half a nation of citizens because you know' they are wrong is okay because . . . well, they are wrong, is more wrong and selfish than those citizens you are dismissing. It is as simple as that.
GAI follow your snark, GA, it is just that in over 9000 protests over the past summer from either BLM or Antifa, there were only 25 fatalities. In a matter of hours rightwing violence has produced at least five. Kinda of like comparing apples to handgranades, huh?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ … rest-acled
It seems like Trump has a lot credibility with a few more than a just hard core bunch.
In this op ed, the FBI defined what occurred on Jaunuary 6th as more than a protest or even riot, it was a terrorist attack. And you have to excuse me if I take the word of the FBI over that of rightwing media.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2 … e-response
Article 3 of the 14th Amendment clearly defines what constitutes an assault against the Unit d Stars and I dare to say that terrorism qualifies. Congressmen who are so involved are not to b seated. So, it is not my choice, it is the law. I am not talking about the silly attempts by Republicans to protest the Electors that day, as that is their right. I am talking about those that had a role in the planning, aiding and abetting of the riot participants. They should be just as subject to charges as any physical rioter.
Those in these hallowed places are expected to set a better example and should b expelled immediately and replaced by another.
This is serious and the Congress would be remiss in not seeking justice that is not revenge and to make sure that this does not happen again. So, no kid gloves.
GA, as long as Trump is President, he can and does influence.
The Biden administration can and will walk and chew gum at the same time. We can't afford to send a message of leniency to insurrectionists.
The nation needs both: justice in pursuit of this breach as well as the Biden administration having a successful rollout.
By delaying the process are we condoning or mitigating what has happened? Fair is fair, there are always winners and losers and until now we have always accepted that fact. I find any deviation from that attitude as an inherent danger in itself.I can't get past " there were only 25 fatalities" That really got me.
"It seems like Trump has a lot credibility with a few more than a just hard core bunch."
I hope not.
As for your clarification about which Congressmen you were talking about, I agree with you.
You could be right about Pres. Trump still having some influence, but I just don't see it, relative to any actions that would require complicity or cooperation from any other authority or agency. My mental picture is of a frustrated, isolated, and nearly impotent soon-to-be ex-president.
Hopefully, you can accept that none of my comments on this subject have ever considered leniency to be any part of what I was advocating. I want and expect accountability—from the top down to the least of the mob that assaulted our Capitol. But what I want more is for the new administration to have the best possible environment for its start. I can wait a short time for my accountability. Especially since I don't see how it would be possible for this issue to be concluded before stepping on weeks of Pres. Biden's first efforts.
GA
I think the Democrats know full well there is not enough time to have a trial in the Senate. This is political theater. I would love to have a trial in the Senate. That means, much of the evidence of the fraudulent election would be able to be discussed in a public forum and put in the public record. This is something Democrats do NOT want to see happen. I think it would provide an opportunity to see many things that have been kept from the public. The Democrats know what they're doing. The problem is, most Conservatives and supporters of President Donald Trump also know what they're doing. Protecting such a historic election fraud may be their legacy.
IMO you pointed out the root of the problem. Simply the Democrats are playing a political card. The well realizes that the media has stirred up the general public, and all eyes are on them. They are whooping up a crowd that wants meat. However, they are not considering the other half of the country, that are ready to finally say, "we are done with all the games Washington is playing". They are pitting one side against the other, one of their oldest ploys.
THis im[eachment is nothing but theater. Factually there is no time to have an impeachment proceeding, and it is very questionable in regard to impeachment after a president can be impeached after they leave the office.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dersho … push-trump
Good Morning Sharlee. I just watched the speech again. The first time I watched it, I watched entirely in solidarity with the President, with the crowd, with the message the day represented....we will not be cast aside, we will not be ignored!
The next two times, (after talk of impeachment started AGAIN, which can only do more harm to this Nation) I watched in order to scrutinize, to find something... anything, which stood out as hate speech or inciting violence, some coded threat of some sort...it's not there!! It doesn't exist!!
I believe and (with God's help, it will all come out) that the anti-America fringe groups had it all planned out to disrupt the Capital.
Yes I believe that some Trump supporters did enter into the Capitol Building, but was it at the point they were allowed in?!
I don't know if there will be or can be an unbiased investigation.
I can no longer say with absolute certainty that this is the America where we are ALL innocent until proven guilty.
Do we ever get our day in court! Do hardened criminals have more rights than a Trump supporter?
Our first and second Amendment Rights can never be infringed upon.....really?
I think President Trump has been a lot calmer than I would have been, knowing that computer generated votes disenfranchised voters and the entire process. Knowing that he and his supporters (and those that may not be conservative, but support him and love this Country) were targeted and sabotaged on Jan. 6.
Knowing that the left is actively working to destroy everything that makes this country great.
I am beyond frustrated, as I know so many are, I am keeping the faith, while remaining diligent in the fight......and for the leftists who reside here, "fight" does not mean I have a plan to go punch someone in the face (even if they deserve it) it simply means that I am in the fight to preserve our rights and to hold on to this Republic that Ben Franklin questioned whether we could or would.
My thoughts on why impeachment is necessary
GOP colleagues have stated that impeachment is divisive and could cause further violence. I disagree. Allowing President Trump to walk away, validates messianic conspiracy theories and disinformation. It could me more dangerous. Thread
Denver Riggleman
QAnon adherents and those who believe “Stop the Steal” conspiracies view this as a vanguard movement of apocalyptic and revolutionary ideology. QAnon is “syncretic” now including fantasies pushed by Flynn, Powell etc— that deep state evil doers are afraid of evidence against them
A significant part of this conspiracy envisions an all-at-once insurrection (signified by the code: WWG1WGA:” where we go one we go all”) against pedophilic and satanic lawmakers. President Trump, in this fantasy, stands as the man ordained to stop them.
If there is no accountability for POTUS & allies pushing radical conspiracies, those who believe Trump is the ordained protector will believe the conspiracies true, that he had so much evidence against evil-doers they would not convict him. Future violence could be encouraged
Impeaching President Trump for his grotesque use of power and language to incite riots, based on coordinated disinformation, will aid in dousing the fire of conspiracy grifters and to show QAnon believers that WWG1WGA was a horrific lie. Impeachment destroys the mirage.
Lastly, responsibility of leadership is to identify the facts and act in good faith, even when hard. Jan 6th proved that disinformation could destroy our Republic. White Nationalists were there! Our adversaries know that also. Let’s stop disinfo from inside & outside. Impeach
- GOP Denver RigglemanDenver Riggleman doesn't know what he is doing.
It is impossible to impeach President Donald Trump before the end of his term. It will take too long.
If, by chance, it did happen. I would unleash anger and rage at levels you've never seen before.
You are NOT going to get millions of people to be quiet. President Donald Trump has a following of tens of millions of people. Keep going after him and you will light a powder keg.
The wise thing is to let it go.
FYI...Riggleman lost his bid in Congress to Republican Bob Good. He is labeled within the party as a RINO. Nobody in the Republican party listens to him.At first, I thought they were going to be your thoughts. But, if I understand correctly, you are quoting an article that describes your thoughts.
Except for the first paragraph, I don't have a lot of disagreement with the article's points—in general.
My continued comments that I think the immediacy of the push for impeachment is wrong for what we most importantly need—right now, were never intended to mean I don't think there is a need for accountability. I do think that is an important need, and mostly for the same reasons as your quote.
Think of it like medical triage. Assess the immediate needs first, and prioritize actions based on those needs. My assessment is that our nation needs our new president to get the best start possible, and I don't think playing second fiddle to a political impeachment process is the best start we can give him.
You, (generic to the folks demanding accountability), can have your accountability, and, give our new president the start he needs. It is just a matter of what is most important; a pound of flesh now to satisfy accountability—to the detriment of our new president's efforts, or we can prioritize our new president's needs first, and the need for accountability second. Either choice achieves accountability. The difference is which is the better choice for our nation.
GA
“House Republican leaders have decided not to formally lobby members of the party against voting to impeach President Trump"
House Republican leadership doesn't plan to tell its members to vote against impeaching President Trump or the Democrat-led resolution calling on Vice President Pence to invoke the 25th Amendment to remove Trump from office, a senior GOP aide confirmed to The Hill on Tuesday.Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell reportedly believes that President Trump committed impeachable offenses and supports Democrats’ move to impeach him for a second time after last week’s Capitol riot.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/mcconn … rts-reportHe's afraid of a lot more violence on Inauguration Day and what it will do to the party.
On a related note, the Joint Chiefs of Staff issued a letter today condemning the Trump rioters.
Think about it. We now have the military involved. This is what Trump and his supporters have done to our country.Yes. And that they had to remind them of their oath is a little scary. There were veterans and active-duty service members involved.
That they felt the need to send that memo to the force is no joke.
I had just read this an was going to share but you beat me to it. I suppose his cult will now add Mitch to the "bad" list right along with Mike Pence.
This is truly astonishing news.
- PrettyPantherposted 3 years ago
0I made this point to Sharlee and would like to make it here. It is my opinion that the "stop the steal" delusion of massive election fraud must not be further validated in any way. It must be marginalized. Supporters of it must be cast to the fringes of society. No more calling for investigations and no more cringing in the face of delusional cult me!bers.
This means, above all, the originator of the lie must be impeached, th elected officials who egged it on must be, at the very least, censured if not removed from office, and those who participated in the uprising at the Capitol must be prosecuted.
By the way, GA, living in Oregon, I am aware that more than 750 protesters were arrested in Portland over the summer. It is a false right-wing talking point that Democratic cities did nothing to discourage rioters and looters.I have heard that "750 protesters" thought before. It may or may not be true, but I will accept your statement that it is. My impression that prompted my "snarky" comment is based entirely on what I have seen, and have not seen.
BY "seen," of course I mean media presentations because I have not further relative to your point. What I don't recall seeing is the mass arrests of those 750 protestors, or presentations of law enforcement's after-the-fact efforts to track down the lawless through video and tip resources like they are doing for those of the Capitol Hill assault.
However, just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it wasn't done. I do recall the stories about the revolving courthouse doors and the AGs that proclaimed they wouldn't prosecute.
Maybe I am more wrong than right. I don't have enough information to know. Since I don't like being wrong, maybe I should dig a little more and get back to you.
GAYou heard it from me. It's widely reported and easy to find in a matter of seconds with a search engine.
https://www.newsweek.com/more-750-prote … go-1529801Yes, sources like your link are easy to find. As are sources that speak to quotes in your link about arrestees being processed and immediately being released. And an AG stating he would not prosecute any non-violent charges, (it appears that looting is considered a non-violent crime), and law enforcement agencies declining to participate because of such prosecution standards. As in; why arrest them if they will just be returned to the streets and their charges dropped?
Most of that is from your link. But it is not enough for me to be comfortable with a firm position. So, as mentioned to PrettyPanther, I will get back to you when I know more. If it turns out that "arrests" mean no more than a few hours off of the streets, then I will feel better about my original thoughts. I don't think any of the Capitol Hill assault arrestees are going to get that kind of easy treatment. (not that I think they deserve it)
GAMany were arrested and released; some were convicted.
The release of a looter is not morally equal to shooting an unarmed black man. Sedition and insurrection is not morally equal to releasing a looter.If I had offered that reply you would have called it a deflection. No one was talking about moral equivalencies.
GA
'It is my opinion that the "stop the steal" delusion of massive election fraud must not be further validated in any way. It must be marginalized. Supporters of it must be cast to the fringes of society. No more calling for investigations and no more cringing in the face of delusional cult me!bers."
You do realize there are very similar passages on how to handle dissidents, just like what you wrote, in Adolph Hitler's autobiography "Mein Kampf."
What you wrote really shocked me.I wonder if that means that no one must watch for gerrymandering in the future. Or for illegal aliens voting, or dead people. Should we not watch for ballot counters changing ballots? Does violating state's voting laws now not to matter? Do we have to go back to electors voting their personal wishes rather than those of the people that sent them?
Is anyone witnessing improper/illegal voting now considered a "delusional cult member" and cast to the fringes of society?
Sounds like an excellent method of destroy any vestige of trust in our elections.Shocked Me too...
Pretty's statement is very representative of how many generally feel. Not sure they realize there are just as many on the other side of the divide that has been placating and marginalize them and is just not willing to continue. So we are left with a stalemate.
So funny you brought up Mein Kampf, last week pulled it out, and wow wish I had not...My words on an internet forum about marginalizing terrorists shock you? Aren't you a supporter of a conspiracy theory invented by a lying demagogue who just led his followers to storm the Capitol and bludgeon a police officer with a fire hydrant, among other things?
I'm shocked.All you have to do is exchange the words "non-Aryans" with "Trump Supporters" and you have followed the exact blue print of Hitler. Right down to the labels of his opponents.
So, yes, it does shock me.Lol, so dramatic. I simply said they need to be marginalized to the fringe,just like moon landing deniers and 9/11 truthers. I didn't see you wringing your hands over them.
No, actually you said more than that...
"I made this point to Sharlee and would like to make it here. It is my opinion that the "stop the steal" delusion of massive election fraud must not be further validated in any way. It must be marginalized. Supporters of it must be cast to the fringes of society. No more calling for investigations and no more cringing in the face of delusional cult me!bers."
I think your opinion on the stop the steel must not be validated could be calling for punishment. It is apparent many share your opinion. However, is it wise for you to suggest a form of punishment for a group that does not agree with you? Hey, you have a right to think that way, but hopefully, it is not catchy, or we could see the Hitlerism reborn.
Calling for society to pack a segment of people off to the fringes of society... Pretty scary stuff.I did not call for punishment anywhere. You made that up. I also did not call for physically "packing up" anyone. I'm talking about viewing those who promote delusional conspiracy theories as a fringe element of society, nothing more than that. Let them spout their nonsense but don't validate it.
Validate = make or declare logically valid.I made that up... Your statement is very simply clear...You offered a clear opinion on what you felt should be done "must not be further validated in any way ---Supporters of it must be cast to the fringes of society. "
Putting your paragraph in context. You offer a reason why some should be punished. Must not be further validated alone is fine, but to add the context -- " Supporters of it MUST BE CAST to the fringes of society." I would pretty much say the context of your comment was clear. So cast or packing one up, no difference.
"I made this point to Sharlee and would like to make it here. It is my opinion that the "stop the steal" delusion of massive election fraud must not be further validated in any way. It must be marginalized. Supporters of it must be cast to the fringes of society. No more calling for investigations and no more cringing in the face of delusional cult me!bers."You're intentionally reading into my wods what I did not say.
Feel good about that? I've made myself clear but if you're unable or unwilling to comprehend that I am merely stating that election fraud conspirators should be relegated to the fringes just like moon landing deniers, that is your problem.Then why not say it as you just did above. Why be judge, and executioner?
Judgment ---" It is my opinion that the "stop the steal" delusion of massive election fraud must not be further validated in any way" "No more calling for investigations and no more cringing in the face of delusional cult me!bers."
Punishment --- "Supporters of it must be cast to the fringes of society"
Is that all his supporters or just certain ones who need to b cast to the fringe of society?
"I made this point to Sharlee and would like to make it here. It is my opinion that the "stop the steal" delusion of massive election fraud must not be further validated in any way. It must be marginalized. Supporters of it must be cast to the fringes of society. No more calling for investigations and no more cringing in the face of delusional cult me!bers."
These kinds of statements in my opinion are inflammatory. I supported Trump. I also wanted some form of investigation. I find it aggravating at the least you see fit to suggest what should be done with me or anyone else.
I have said my bit, as you have. I suggest we move on.You are determined to pretend I said something I didn't. Whatever. Just like Mike, your record speaks for itself.
I would think anyone, that read your comment would find the same context I did. Your comment speaks loudly and highlights your attitude.
Sharlee: This is something to consider. It is an opinion, but I believe a very plausible opinion.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ … ill-457549l be honest, I am not sure what you are getting at? I was critiquing a comment. Not her opinion on the Jan 6th riot, but her judge and jury matter a fact attitude. An attitude that projected IMO "if you don't like them -- cancel them. "
I offered my opinion.
Okay.
I know what I meant and I clarified it as best I could several times. Can't help it if you cannot or will not understand. [shrug]I guess I must understand, there are so many that feel like you do. Can I understand how these feelings solve anything? Oh well...
Still think we need an investigation into massive election fraud?
You were on a roll there, Sharlee. She meant what she said the first time. She always does despite the constant, inevitable backtracks in every single situation... Appreciated your first pinpointed responses, nevertheless. You never have to compromise in cases like that.
The context did seem very clear, and so decisiveness, so conclusive. As a rule, I do first try to drum my point home, and then I make an attempt to come to some form of understanding. This forum is not conservative-friendly. I appreciate your advice.
Sharlee: I couldn't have said it better.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics … InAppShare
It would be most interesting to see someone "make or declare logically valid" Trumps supposed comments calling for an insurrection or riot. Without "interpreting" the words to mean something unsaid, without spinning the words into something that was not there, without declaring that he speaks in "code" and only those "understanding" that code really know what he meant.
(I understand you can "declare" anything at all to be logically valid, but assume that you refer to a "declaration" that is itself is true and logical. Simply declaring that a call for a peaceful protest is a call for destruction and violence doesn't make it logical.)
Frankly, the Democrats seem to be overdoing everything. The repercussions of a second impeachment is nothing short of terrible and its just going to divide the country but then I don't think the Dems are bothered about it as they have a one-track mind to just get the better of Trump. Sometimes you shoot yourself in the foot and this is what the Dems are doing. With just six days left I don't see any logic in this impeachment. Mark my words it's going to set America against each other and a sure sign that Joe Biden is the Bahadur Shah of the United States
You have to ask why the Democrats are so afraid of Free Speech. It's obvious it scares them.
University professors push Biden to create ‘misinformation commission’ to counter right-wing 'lies'
"A pair of university professors are urging Democratic President-elect Joe Biden to create a presidential "misinformation commission" to counter the spread of right-wing "lies."
...professors Bill Adair and Philip Napoli, both of whom are public policy instructors at Duke University, argued that the recent storming of the U.S. Capitol by a mob of Trump supporters proves the need for a government panel to decide what speech ought to be permitted."Do you believe free speech includes the right to post on social media that you are planning to murder someone?
Dearest Sharlee01 and GA Anderson,
I commend you both on your ability to play the "BothSiderism" game, but for the sake of all of us, please, just take a side and be done with it.2nd that... !!
But it's a free country... for a short period of time, anyway.Oh my, I guess I just ain't made to be a sacrificial warrior. Hang in there Savvydating. Even when your perspective isn't validated, you get kudos for sticking with it. 'That's my story and I'm sticking with it.' I guess that is something.
GA"sacrificial warrior".... which implies perhaps, I have some of that in me. I suppose you meant to dismiss me... "perspective isn't validated" and all of that, yet I take your comment as a compliment... which brings me a certain amount of hope-- even joy.
Not something you can understand, I don't think, GA, but thanks just the same.
No hard feeling on my part. You're a middle of the road guy and I am not.
Well Hello M&M, Not sure about what subject I climbed on a fence and balanced my opinion? You have piqued my curiosity. So, give me a clue.
I guess I think out of the box. What if -- now think about this. What if one side has a really solid point, and it just fits my opinion on a given subject. And then hell, on a totally different subject the "other side" comes up with a thought that just sounds right on...
I stay open-minded, try to just use good old common sense, and yeah have a big problem keeping my mouth shut.
Plus, I like to choose the side I agree with on a given subject, and that's a problem because I don't think either side is right all the time. Do you?I don't take sides—for the sake of taking sides. Considering what we have seen between 'The Left' and 'The Right' these last few years I think that position is validated. No "side" is ever always right or always wrong.
I do have a definite 'lean', but when that "lean" isn't right I don't have a problem adjusting. I think that is the more intelligent perspective. We aren't talking about sports teams, we are talking about our nation's direction.
You are welcome to a 'my way or the highway' perspective if that is what makes you comfortable with your opinions. I will stick to my perspective of right is right and wrong is wrong. Easy-peasy, no stressful decision making to worry about.
ps. I like your "Dearest" introduction to your thought. ;-)
GA
GA Anderson,
Thank you for the compliment on the "Dearest" opening. I respect both your and Sharlee's opinion, but (here it comes) both of you seem to "lean" right and that is your right (is that a double intendre)?
However, in regard to my comment of "BothSiderism", I stand firm. Amongst voters in the 2020 election 74 million people voted for Trump and 81 million voted for Biden. Sorry but that's only 7 million voters away from an even split disregarding the (should be defunct) electoral college.
Sorry again but that is two sides.
At this juncture, I should state emphatically, that I have no respect for lifetime lying politician Joe Biden who, in my opinion, will try to return this country to the status quo that has so dismally failed regular American workers since the 1970's.
However, I have even less respect for the a lying, failed businessman that is Donald Trump and, as a 68 year old, at this point I would prefer a professional politician to a reality television snake oil salesman who has failed the American people in a deadly pandemic and further fueled division amongst the people.
There, I picked a side and so should you. After all, this is America and the parties that be leave you only two choices. The frying pan or the fire.
I chose a side. The frying pan.
It is my honest opinion that the people who voted for Trump failed miserably to do the due diligence it takes to be a responsible voter. Donald Trump has failed upwards spectacularly his entire life. Everything about him is a lie.
I would highly suggest that, next time, voters who really want to shake up the system should just attend their local State Fair and recruit the guy who's trying to sell you on putting a 10 inch basketball through a 9 inch hoop in hopes of winning a 50 cent stuffed animal for a 5 dollar fee..
After all, you'll have better odds at that than ever electing another unqualified bumpkin like Donald Trump to be President of the greatest nation on the planet.
Sincerely,
The Masked Marauder."It is my honest opinion that the people who voted for Trump failed miserably to do the due diligence it takes to be a responsible voter. Donald Trump has failed upwards spectacularly his entire life. Everything about him is a lie."
Oh, just another social media junkie. My bad. For a minute there, I thought you might have a unique thought.
Netflix has an worthwhile show, amazingly enough: The Social Dilemma. We could all learn some things from it... not that I assume you are particularly interested in doing that.Just as you will stand firm that you think that there are only two sides, I will stand firm in my disagreement. There is at least a third side—the side of our nation, and that is the side I pick—the Independent side.
I will support or condemn policies or actions from either side depending on whether I think they are good or bad for our nation. Picking a side does not have to be an all-or-nothing proposition.
In 2016 I couldn't vote for Hillary because I felt she, and her policy goals would be harmful to our nation. But I couldn't vote for Trump either because I didn't think he had the character our nation needed in its president. So I voted a write-in.
Though the next four years I supported many of Trump's policy actions because I thought they were good for our nation, but I didn't support all of them, (as in, no all-or-nothing allegiance), and I never supported the man.
In 2020, I couldn't vote for Trump because, to me, he had proven he didn't have the character our nation needed in its president, But I also couldn't vote for Biden because he espoused too many of the democrat policy goals that I think will harm our nation. So I voted my down-ballot, I didn't have a presidential choice because I vote for a candidate, not against a candidate. Even so, I think I picked a side, the side of what is good for our nation—I didn't think either candidate was.
I am rooting for Biden to have a successful presidency because that is what our nation needs. I will support him in every policy I think is right for us and I will condemn and resist every policy that I think isn't. And right now, except that he isn't Trump I haven't heard to0 many policies I want to support.
So we just disagree Jimmi, I have picked a side, the side of our nation, the Independent side. There are few things in life that are all-or-nothing and I certainly don't think a political party agenda is one of them.
Neither do I think the categorization of 75 or 80 million people, (of either side), as one thing or the other is an all-or-nothing choice. So I will defend the ones I think are reasonable and condemn the ones that aren't.
Plus, there is an added bonus for me. I really enjoy a good issues discussion in these forums, so in holding the position I do I have double the opportunity for forum participation. ;-)
GA.
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is explicitly pointing his finger at President Donald Trump for helping to spur the attack on the Capitol by the outgoing president’s supporters.
“The last time the Senate convened, we had just reclaimed the Capitol from violent criminals who tried to stop Congress from doing our duty. The mob was fed lies. They were provoked by the president and other powerful people,” McConnell said on the Senate floor, marking the first convening of the full Senate since the attack.My fine friend GA,
Sorry it took me so long to answer, evidently I don't possess the time, nor the inclination, to sit at my computer and answer every non-sensical post that comes my way.
I have stated, many times, how much I admire and appreciate your posts and opinions and won't bother arguing your position that you voted for
neither Clinton/Biden or Trump, or your stated issue that Trump did not have the character for a president of our nation. With that I agree 100 percent. I won't even bother to list the previous behavior in Trump's life that should have led anyone with research skills to avoid having elected a person who was neither intelligent enough or qualified for that position.
However, you're statement about supporting some of Trumps positions in regard to policy leaves a big hole in your argument that you are not dealing in "bothsiderism" but rather "nonsiderism" with your lack of voting for the frying pan or the fire. Sorry, but you just chose not to cook at all. Your choice was to go hungry. Do let me describe Trumps abysmal Presidency to you in easily defined terms.
In his single one term act as President, Donald Trump managed to so damage the conservative right-wing Republican Party that they lost the House, the Senate and the Executive branch all. Evidently his policies were about as popular as he was.
In closing, during our correspondence, I really appreciate how you manage to slide in one more cheap shot after the bell has rung. Quite frankly, the little smiley face you add afterword does little to hide the fact that you consider yourself "better read" than I.
In boxing we just call that a cheap shot.
Still I appreciate your opinion even though in the end, old buddy, your support of Trump's policies will surely land you on the wrong side of historical opinion.
Respectfully,
The Masked Marauder. :-)Is your choice to comment as a thread post rather than a comment-reply post a purposeful effort to make me work harder, as in, scroll back to find the comment you are referencing?
In this instance, I will respond from memory, and what I think you are referring to rather than 'scrolling back' to find my actual comment.
Speaking of subtle jabs, your crack about time and inclination sitting at your computer is a good example of where I would have included that little smiley face to reduce some of the sting of a snarky comment.
Of course, you can decide that I chose to "not cook," but I think I can equally validly say that I chose not to aid and abet. Obviously, your opinion is different, but I feel my choice to value my vote as a vote "for" and not a vote "against" as just having more integrity than a vote for the lesser of two evils.
Sure you don't like Biden, but you don't like Trump more so you will set aside your values to vote for the one you least like. How can you rationalize that? You don't like something, but you will still vote for it? That sounds like a 'Devil's bargain' compromise to me. I hold my vote to be too important to compromise that way. If I can't vote my conscience, I won't vote. Call it what you want, but I feel it keeps my integrity intact. What do you call that in boxing?
After reading my comments about why I couldn't vote for Trump, why do you feel the need to explain the "why not" to me? Is it because you are trying to justify your voting choice? (note: no little smiley face)
And for clarity, that "little smiley face" has nothing to do with any sense of being "better read," or more intelligent, or more right, or more anything else, it is merely my signal that what I said wasn't intended to be as snarky as it could be taken to be. A nod to understanding that sometimes my remarks can be snarky when they aren't intended to be. When I fully intend snark, or "cheap shots," there won't be any little smiley faces.
As for being on the wrong side of history, you could be right. I suppose the next few years will show whether the China confrontations or the Israel support or the reduction in business regulations or the tax reductions or the effort to force Congress to do its job and deal with immigration reform and our current illegal immigration population or the plight of the DACA folks, were terrible policies. Hang around. I have been here, (on HP), for ten years, so we can readdress this issue again in a couple of years to see who was on the wrong side of history.
As a closing note, I will take your "fine friend" as sincere. I also enjoy our exchanges.
GAYou told me once that you had no problem with Trump's policies.
You see both sides as undesirable for different reasons. Many of the rest of us looking at the absurdity of Trump, saw his removal as a necessity though the heavens may fall. The "other side" operated with the same sense of urgency. But, in my case that was easy because I liked neither Trump, the man nor his policies.
Yet, I can understand and respect your approach, regardless.You are not quite right in saying that I said I had no problem with Pres. Trump's policies. What I said was that I liked many of them.
I did not like his illegal immigrant child separation policy. There were others that I didn't agree with, but still, there were many that I did agree with.
As for his removal, I am relieved. Even though I liked many of his policies, his vision of America was not mine. I view him as the cure that was worse than the disease. We still have the disease, we just need another shot at a cure.
GAWell now you have NEW leadership and FRESH ideas to move the country forward into a brighter and better future.
Pelosi, Schumer and Biden....
Hmmmmm... change?
Was America just duped?
Were we given 4 years of something so awful, that the alternative (more of what we were fed up with just a few years back) seems like fresh air and a new start?Trump, by his own admission played to people's fantasies. He gave the paramilitary attackers of the Capitol purpose. Like any gang, they need purposes to fight an enemy and let them use their paramilitary training and gear to present their cause. He even gave the Shaman a purpose.
Trump's rallies were the same thing. He played to people's fantasies and gave them purpose for a cause they were itching for.That is the job of our MSM/News to control, not the President.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quU_Tbv96Wk
I wouldn't call it fresh air and a new start. I think it is just a fresh battle in the search for a cure. We know the disease, (the political establishment), we just need a chance to catch our breath before we try something else.
GAThat is how I see it. And, I might add that I still believe the foundations of our government, and the way it is supposed to work, are sound. We have allowed money to rule over the people and must find a way to remedy that.
You are preaching to the choir Sandy, I completely agree.
GA
I think you know as well as I, there will be no future battle, there will be no cure. And such talk will soon be dangerous to give voice to on ANY platform.
I expect not so subtle effort in the coming months to make what would have been unthinkable changes just a decade ago, Biden's first day of activities is just the tip of the iceburg,
I think there is a substantial entwining between big tech, Wall St. and China, the corporations and banks are aligned with China far more than is obvious to most.
There will never be another Trump and there will never be another time when open platforms and uncensored communications between the people will be allowed as we saw in the past decade, they will never allow another rise of a populist who sets himself against the political establishment/elite.I can only hope that you are wrong. I optimistically expect to see a "Trump II" in sheep's clothing in the 2024 battle.
I don't think 75 million Trump supporters will just blend into the landscape. I think the idiots among them will remain idiots, but I am hopeful a new non-politician will emerge to claim the mantle they are refusing to give up.
GAGA, the idiots amongst them will be made example of, soon.
Others will be "black listed" or de-platformed entirely, a wonderful example of what can be done was just given, the example was how they shut down communication of Trump, while President.
If Trump had the power or authority most people believed, this obviously would have never occurred. Its an important thing to note, when considering where things are headed in the future.
In China, the Party controls all, including the corporations, in America it is clearly the other way around.
And today, American corporations and our biggest financial institutions are aligned with China, whether that be Apple, Google, or Goldman Sachs.
75 million supporters are a drop in the bucket in a world of over 7 billion people, they will be marginalized, made example of, or made to disappear as required... they will not be given a voice, they will not align behind another Trump, because there will be no other Trump.
Such a person will never be allowed to have a voice again, not in our lifetimes. The ability to both control the narrative in the MSM and deny access to social platforms all but ensures this will never re-occur.
As can be seen in political threads here, there are many Americans that will be happy with this. There will be many Americans who are earnest in their efforts to ensure such voices be silenced.George Orwell envisioned this long ago. He was a man way ahead of his time. I believe you are right and all of this will not end well for the average US citizen. But, I believe the 70 million MAGA supporters will not go quietly into that good night.
He was more a product of his time. And what he envisioned largely came true, especially in the U.S.S.R.
While the coming times have an element of 1984 in them, there is a difference as well with the advances of technology.
Everywhere a person goes, everything a person does, every purchase, every typed word, every transaction, every email can be (and is) tracked by AI algorithms.
Facial recognition, phone tracking (your phone mic can be turned on remotely without you knowing it), etc.
There are two choices a person can make, move to a country like Slovenia and become a goat herder living in the mountains, or resign yourself to being tracked and recorded 24/7.The state of art of technology is improving at an exponential rate and is leaving parts of the constitution behind. If you are right leaning, you believe that banning Trump from some of the social networks is a violation of his first amendment rights. However, if you are left leaning, it is the appropriate thing to do. Who knows, what technology improvements we will have within four years that are in conflict with the constitution. Do we have the right to bear AR-15's while attacking the Capitol? or the right to set-off pipe bombs while pushing a button on a phone?...laser guided rifles?
Of course, those doing the silencing always feel it is justified.
I am sure those are excellent reasons to ensure everyone is monitored at all times, to make sure that any such threat is eliminated before it can come to fruition.
The "few idiots", that are among the many Trump supporters, shouldn't be our first concern, when half of the Country thinks Government is the answer to every question. Brainwashed? Misled? Clueless? Whatever the case, they worship at the altar of big Government.
Group think happening among millions of idiots, in the U.S., concerns me much more."Group think happening among millions of idiots, in the U.S., concerns me much more."
I think it is a big concern because we have them on both sides, rightists and leftists. In group think tempers flare, but when one studies history, this country has always had them: Whigs, Tories, Federalists, Republicans, Democrats, etc., which has brought on violence and sometimes led to individual conflicts. People were killed in duels: Alexander Hamilton was murdered by Aaron Burr after Hamilton deliberately fired his shot into the air, for example. Another example, in 1856, Rep. Preston Brooks was beaten with a cane by Senator Charles Sumner. Before that incident, approximately 70 attacks occurred between fellow congressmen.
https://www.history.com/news/charles-su … -violence`
Tempers flared in state legislatures and attacks occurred between legislators, too, including a murder in my home state of Arkansas between Speaker of the House John Wilson who knifed Rep. Joseph Anthony to death. The Speaker was expelled and later tried for murder. He was found "guilty of excusable homicide."
https://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/entr … duel-5664/
Today we think that some of the reasons for the dissent between the left and the right are flimsy, but when one delves into the reasons behind the historic violence, some provocations were very much on thin ice. For instance, the murder in the Arkansas legislature was over the introduction of a wolf-scalp bill.
So, just a little history lesson to lighten the atmosphere.Agreed MizBejabbers, but up until now, we (the left and the right, liberals and conservatives) have always had, at least, one thing in common, a love of/for Country.
I don't ever remember, such hate/disdain for this Country, even in the 60's with the marches and demonstrations and civil unrest.
I certainly don't remember a time, when participating in the 'Pledge of Allegiance' or participating in Independence day celebrations was considered controversial and in need of justification.
Granted there are different degrees of love for this Country, as well as different degrees of hate, but the two seem so far apart {today} even if you don't factor in those to the farthest degrees.
GA,
You are correct in your assumption that the "fine friend" was genuine. I also take your "enjoy" our exchanges as a real compliment considering it's very challenging to engage the conservatives mind if your of another opinion but it does help if you respect the person and not just their political stance and in your case, I do.
Also, you may note that I have taken your original advice about posting in separate stanzas and have found that it is an easier read and has improved my messaging. So, since the beginning of this writing I have stated that I do enjoy your posts, can take good advice and act upon it. and that I do not have to interact with only people I agree with.
Honestly I did not disagree with all of Trumps policies either. I don't believe in illegal immigration as my grandparents went through Ellis Island. There are several other examples as well. My problem is the sheer bulk and weight of the Trump Presidency in relationship of what was bad and good policy on a scale of 1 for bad and 10 for good would add up to, maybe, a three.
The sheer weight of hate that the Trump Presidency fomented in division of the American voter can only be understood by real data (and I hope you, of all people, know that I factcheck all statements on data) that supports the fact that right wing violence has increased drastically under the reign of Trump. Snopes indicates that 74% of political protest violence is committed by the far right extremists.
This does not mean I place conservatives like yourself into the "far" right BUT, in being RIGHT at all you must take a stand against the element that is defeating the real, regular conservative party ( of which my father was a member) that based its beliefs on the following 3 legged stool of strong free-market economic policies, strong defense and strong social values.
Excuse me if those have not been diminished by the Trump reign but they have.
So, in closing I would have to say that your support of any of the, few and far between, decent policies of Donald Trump cannot possibly be weighed against the damage that this abominable species of a human being has wrought against America's great experiment of Democracy.
In my honest opinion, your tacit support of this tin pot dictator, based on the fact that you agreed with some of his policies is not a representation of a conservative stance by a person with your intelligence and integrity.
It is, however, your opinion, and I respect that.
Sincerely,
Your Friend and Foe,
The Masked Marauder.First Jimmi, allow me to introduce you to a personal crusade. I am demanding recognition that a capital "C" [C]conservative is not the same as a lowercase "c" [c]conservative. I am a capital "C" [C]conservative. As in a conservative by nature, but not by party. I say that a Republican is a lowercase "c" [c]conservative that follows most conservative values but will readily adapt those values to a party line. A [C]conservative will not do that. A [C]conservative won't have a problem supporting a Democrat proposal that benefits our nation—while still holding to those capital "C" values. A lowercase "c" [c]conservative will never do that. For them, it is all about party, and I don't have a party. None would have me either.
I am glad to hear your view on posting formats. It was a lesson passed on to me, (I never intended to claim credit for the tip), and I am glad to pass it on to others. It really does enhance text conversations. It is easier on the eyes and easier to delineate points of discussion.
As for the other points of your response, had you been following my recent four years of postings you would find that we are in agreement. Although I can recall frequent instances of debating and refuting many- anti-Trump claims, simply because they were wrong, (and in disputing these erroneous claims I earned the title of "Trump Defender"), but I don't recall any instances where I defended the man himself. I freely admit to liking many of his policies, (note "many" not "all"), but I strongly disagree that that makes me a Trump supporter.
The man was beat to death from day 1. And most of the time he deserved it. But, even with all that red meat to chew on, the anti-Trump crew couldn't resist making molehills out of burps and mountains out of molehills. They deserved all of the criticisms they received.
I don't disagree with the Trump thoughts in your comment, but you have to remember I am not a [c]conservative, I am a [C]onservative. ;-)
GA
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Impeaching Donald Trump - Again
by Scott Belford 3 years ago
On Wednesday, Jan 6, 2021, while Congress was attempting to certify Joe Biden as having won the election to become the next President of the United States, Donald Trump was exhorting the mob he had spent the previous week or two calling together to attack Congress and stop the process. He...
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The next 13 days - What will Trump do next?
by PrettyPanther 3 years ago
Personally, I think yesterday's events were entirely predictable and the logical progression of a lying con man telling his supporters, day in and day out, over the course of several years, that everyone who is not for him is an enemy of the United States. The angry mob is directly the result...
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Armed and Ready to Overthrow the Government if Trump Loses in 2024
by Faye V 2 years ago
Are they serious? I don't know whether I should take this as a sensationalism or something to pay attention to? I usually expect better from Newsweek. https://www.newsweek.com/2021/12/31/mil … 60953.html
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President Donald Trump Again?
by Miebakagh Fiberesima 21 minutes ago
Despite all the socio-political questions hanging about, how would you picture former president Donald Trump, as a potential candidate in the 2024 piesidentialrace? Can he make it again? Will the GOP give him a second chance?
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Jan 6th Hearings Are Approaching Will You Be Tuning In?
by Sharlee 21 months ago
The House committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol will hold the first of at least a half-dozen public hearings this week, having already promised stunning revelations that would lay bare just how dangerously close the U.S. came to losing its democracy. So, will you tune in? ...
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What Democrats Have Taught Me About Losing an Election
by Readmikenow 2 years ago
I have been confused as to exactly how to handle a Biden presidency. I consider him a babbling old fool who got rich selling out the United States and his vice president as a female who is a socialist/communist and had to sleep her way into a career. My opinion of both is extremely...