The Devil's Advocate Yet Again

1. 84

   gmwilliamsposted 2 years ago

   
   There are many who believe that the COVID 19 vaccine is a good thing as such will be a protection against covid.   There are others who strongly aver that such vaccinations should be made mandatory & some states are concurring with & applying such mandates.  However, there are a few who vehemently assert that the covid 19 vaccines & its mandates is a sign of the mark of the beast.  These few maintain that the covid 19 vaccination is a harbinger of a more totalitarian culture & society.  They, IN FACT, will REFUSE to take the vaccination for this reason.   There are the remaining who maintain that having a covid vaccination & a vaccination mandated ID will strongly infringe upon their freedoms.  They believe that as free Americans they have the unmitigated right to refuse to take the covid vaccination.  Which premise do you hold & why?

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      lovetherainposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      I was really against it for a while, because I thought they were trying to take away our free choice. While I still maintain that view, and they definitely are, I also remember that I never had a problem with having to take other vaccines to attend school.
      
      While I know they are infringing on freedom, I have never really minded such things as seatbelt laws, polio vaccines etc. It is just part of society that I have to conform to, if I want to live in it.
      
      There are many problems with our society. But there are many good things as well, and I don't really want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

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      1. 84

         gmwilliamsposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         Lovetherain, it isn't vaccines per se.  I am all for vaccines to help & protect.  However, the COVID 19 vaccine is suspicious.  There have been so many negative aftereffects of the vaccination.  The incoming rules that will be established I view as quite draconian.   There have been so many negative aftereffects, including death, from the COVID 19 vaccine.   I am quite hesitant to get the vaccination.

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   2. 80

      Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      In my view, the vaccine controversy is being fueled by media and a Government that seeks to feed that media to cause more division of the American people.  Then make the division causes more confusion, and pits one group against another.  This is easy to see, all one needs to do is sit back and calmly observe.
      
      The Government has done nothing to clearly educate the public on the science of viruses. They just pretty much attempt to threaten or incentivize with a cash reward to cajole citizens to get jabbed. I think they saw the vaccine as a good cudgel to cause another great divide.
      
      The numbers of DELTA although rising show that only a small percentage are dieing from the variance. The cudgel is becoming less of a tool they can use at this point.
      
      IMO common sense should tell one to have a look at the pros and cons and make an individual decision on taking the vaccine. Take into account your age, your health, your family situation, do you have someone in your family that you need to protect? Take into account the new stats on the DELTA virus. It's becoming very apparent that the stats show this virus kills far less and is affecting younger adults. This is most likely due to so many older citizens did get vaccinated.
      
      I really feel it's time to move on, and let people make up their own minds on whether or not they want to get the vaccine.
      
      It is very apparent the Biden administration will need to move on too. We have so many problems at this point piling up, and this virus smoke screen is becoming very apparent as a ploy to keep the public eyes over here on a virus --- not over there on the pile of problems.
      
      The numbers DELTA is providing are not numbers that would support a pandemic, keep that in mind...  Most states show few-death daily.

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      1. 87

         MizBejabbersposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         I am against cash incentives or other monetary prizes to get people to take the vaccine. I think it should be their choice. As the wife of a person whom Uncle Sam sent to biological warfare school back during Vietnam, I think the government's inadequacy in educating the public was caused by a couple of factors:  1. Even the government was in the dark about what was going on. 2. That was compounded by the media, which was keeping the airwaves alive with the uneducated opinions of both sides of the issue.
         
         Re: the deaths:  But those deaths are showing up in the unvaccinated population. At first I refused to get the vaccine. My husband went for his shot and I wouldn't go. Then things got rougher, and I believed that I was being unreasonably stubborn, so I got  mine, too. I kept my mouth shut because I didn't know how my friends would react, but then I found out that they got their vax before we got ours. Now we go out together and enjoy each other's company without so much worrying about who is around us. Funny how this world works.

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   3. 83

      tsmogposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      There are many reasons for the resistance to getting vaccinated. Yes, liberty is one with as you put it "harbinger of more totalitarian culture & society" being a mainstay. And, importantly it is one of the greatest news stories today isn't it. Again, there are many reasons for not getting the vaccine. But, in my view it is a position of Authoritarianism.
      
      Interestingly vaccines were first mandated in the US by George Washington for incoming troops at Philadelphia in 1777 for small box and then further expanded. He said that was a bigger threat than the British.
      https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&s … ation.html
      
      Most know of the history of vaccines being mandated for kids to enter school with a historically 90%+ compliance. However, that is children and there is a track history. We could ask what was the resistance when those first entered the scene. Was there the hoopla of liberty being taken away then and now with kids? If interested a short article outlining the history of vaccine resistance is at the link below.
      https://ftp.historyofvaccines.org/multi … -movements
      
      I got vaccinated with no second thoughts mainly because of age and health issues. When masks were mandated in Calif I just went with the flow as it was no imposition and not a threat to my liberty in my view. Kinda' like I wear pants in public.
      
      However, I do have some negative thoughts to having to show a vaccination card to conduct daily life that is happening today, yet understand why businesses are doing it liability and all that. And, I have my reservations with government doing it seeing it is as a government reaction to "pandemic-mitigation authoritarianism".
      
      For information why I do check out the link below.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7365073/

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      1. 90

         Kyler J Falkposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         I feel that bringing children and mandatory school vaccinations up is a slippery slope, because US law tends to view vaccinations as inherently harmful for pregnant women and young children. If you are a pregnant woman whose child suffers birth defects due to a vaccine, or you are a young child who suffers long-term due to a vaccine, you are unlikely to be able to seek any form of compensation. Though it is highly unlikely to suffer from adverse effects, I think it is relevant to bring up the context under which US law views vaccinations for this demographic.
         
         "There isn't a lot of legal data to back up vaccinations being dangerous for pregnant women and children because the law considers it a poor personal decision not worthy of the court's consideration to begin with," is how it was explained to me by one of my professors.

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      2. 84

         gmwilliamsposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         +10000000000

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   4. 90

      Kyler J Falkposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      When the vaccines turn over to the standard compensation model I will get the experimental vaccines if they have not produced something more effective, better tested, and less politicized. So, as of now, October 1st, 2024, is when I will look to be getting my jab(s). However, I won't be getting them ever if they require boosters throughout the year; I'll take a jab, but I'm not interested in multiple boosters.
      
      As for my feelings on mandates, I will fully support them when the same steps are taken to get everyone all of the vaccines/treatments we have available for all similar illnesses/diseases. Why COVID is so much more pressing of a matter over other illnesses/diseases is nearly beyond me, so unless we treat all vaccine-treatable illnesses/diseases the same way, I'll strictly question the motives behind any mandates. I'll double down on this any day, as well, because I continue to grow up in a social culture where showing up to work/school with the flu is almost mandatory to not be fired/suffer consequences.
      
      A small addition, as well, mandates seem totally unnecessary as far as my personal community and their wellness is concerned, so I don't understand all the constant propaganda and gaslighting from the media and our leaders.

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         Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

         "so I don't understand all the constant propaganda and gaslighting from the media and our leaders."
         
         I feel it's all to divide and divert alls attention away from problems, and Biden's big-spending agenda.  It seemed to be working for a while, but the sh-t has hit the fan as of late. More people are coming out of the smoky diversion and realizing we have so many problems brewing and no one in the White House that is working to solve them.  We have rising crime, a border where all can just walk across, and a CDC that is now in the business of dictating if we need to pay our rent and mortgages. Not to mention a teachers union dictating if schools will open, and our children are made to wear masks. We have China dictating to us in regard to keeping our noses out of their business. And Russia getting a spanking new cash cow pipeline... While we back out on a contract to build the Canadian pipeline.  And we at this point will continue to be diverted to COVID? I don't think so...

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         1. 90

            Kyler J Falkposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            In my experience no one ever gave a damn about social issues and politics until it was forced down our throats 24 hours per day, every day (around the same time as Facebook's public release). Most people around me, even still, choose blissful ignorance from it all for the sake of their health, because it's a clown show nearly unworthy of any attention. The government offers you no choice in these decisions, no say, and even when the bills they do give people a vote on get a majority of the public vote, there is still only a 13% (?) chance they even make it to the floor for debate, and the public at large doesn't even know they have an opportunity to vote on many of the bills.
            
            This isn't some ruse to cover up current goings on, we can all open the main page of Microsoft, Google, Facebook, literally anything and see all the issues 24/7; I would call it overcompensation, and practice for future endeavors at the expense of the present at most. I'm not even sure it is the government pushing the vitriol at this point, though they certainly aren't helping with Biden's measly offerings of, "do you really want your kids growing up in a world like this," as if we are to blame; it's the corporations that control the media forcing it all down our throats near-violently.
            
            That big, "why," can't be so simple as the bait and switch, nor the magician's hot assistant tricks.

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      2. 84

         gmwilliamsposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         +1000000000000

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   5. 76

      Ken Burgessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Knowing what I know of the virus and the vaccine, and knowing that I do not know all there is to know about either, let me try to explain my views...simply:
      
      1 - If you are below the age of 45 this virus really isn't a threat to you.
      
      2 - For a Male under the age of 18 the vaccine poses a not insignificant threat to their health, in fact the stats I have read show it is more of a threat to their health than the virus.
      
      3 - We have NEVER forced people to carry a vaccination card to prove they have been vaccinated for day to day activity and just living life.
      
      If you want to demand it for travel outside the country, if you want to force it on certain government positions, that's fine.  Anything more infringes upon freedom and liberty and DOES open Pandora's box for the next 'emergency' that 'demands' all people carry proof-of or be injected with something.
      
      Vaccinations for school children?  There have always been opt-outs for people who feel strongly against them, for religious reasons, for health reasons, and considering how there is practically 0% risk of children dying from this, one has to wonder the necessity of it.
      
      I like dealing with the facts.. not hysteria... not misleading MSM hyperbolic nonsense.  And while this virus is something to try and control/eliminate, our current state of panic over it I feel is way overblown and is causing way more harm to our society than any good/deterrence it is doing.

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         wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         You are, I think, missing one of the primary reasons for vaccination; so that you don't get COVID and infect others with it.  Others which may not have your resistance.
         
         This is not unusual - we require a great deal of health related actions, not necessarily to protect you but to protect the rest of society.  Temperature settings for refrigerators and freezers in retail (and other) operations.  Hookups to public sewer rather than person drain fields.  Cleanliness in restaurant kitchens.  Just 3 of the hundreds (thousands?) of laws intended to protect someone other than the one the law is applied to.
         
         And yes, I had to provide proof of vaccination before attending school and so did my children.  Exemptions were made for religious and health reasons, but a simple "I don't like vaccines" was not considered an excuse.  (I will admit this was many years ago, though.  It effectively eradicated several serious diseases, but it was a long time ago.)

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         1. 76

            Ken Burgessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            No, I'm not, I'll stick with that statement I made.
            
            With one addition:
            
            People are trying to equate Covid to a true pandemic, its not.
            People are trying to equate it with things like Polio, it doesn't come close.

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            1. 76

               Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

               Or Spanish flu or flu, not even in my lifetime.

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   6. 76

      Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Where the vast majority of vaccined people, media, tech giant s, Governments, mainstream medical and extreme wealthy totally ignore me. This is discrimation and unconstitutional at its most extreme. Just for humans protection his and others own most sacred bodies and souls. Give me foods and natural medicine of the Gods. Hold the toxicology vaccines and sugar from the tyrannical propreganda killing and proverty machines.
      
      Some odd lad tests have been done For delta variant. Vast majority of doctors are totally only guessing of Covid is delta variant.
      Now assumed authorities are claiming 99% people with delta variant Covid are unvaccined humans. Beyond doctors guessing that's world championship lying. Fear and isolation dose most Harm to our immune system, which our greatest defense from disease and viruses.
      
      Chronic conditions, aging immune systems increase vulnerability. In a pandemic filled with grim statistics, one of the grimmest has gone largely unnoticed: 95 percent of COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. have occurred among people who were 50 or older
      
      Follow the money, its about the greatest cost to the Government, is social security. And the monotary system collapse. They coming for it and they will get it, unless we can turn tyranny into love and peace more so again.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         CP's bottom line Interpreted:
         95 percent of COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. have occurred among people who were 50 or older, who have chronic conditions due to aging. The people of this age group are vulnerable due to weak immune systems ...
         killing seniors is a sure way way to avoid Social Security payouts!
         
         The government wants to keep its money? The government is after more money? The government is after P R O F I T ?
         
         The government is made up of greedy politicians who care nothing for their constituents?
         
         Man! !

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         1. 77

            Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            CP's bottom line Interpreted:
            Ninety five percent of Covid19 deaths in the U.S. have occurred among people who were 50 and older with chronic conditions due to aging. The people of this age group are vulnerable due to weak immune systems ... killing seniors is a sure way way to avoid Social Security payouts!
            
            The government wants to keep its money? The government is after more money? The government is after P R O F I T ?
            
            The government is made up of greedy politicians who care nothing for their constituents?
            
            Man! !

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         2. 76

            Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            It's not the Government money, we earned it through decades we paid into.
            Governments are just stealing it, worst than income tax.

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            1. 77

               Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

               "It's not the governments's money."
               
               
               
               Be careful when you agree to be T A X E D, because those who were faithfully elected by the citizenry will need a portion of the allotted money to pay themselves, before they direct what little is left to where it's supposed to go.

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               1. 76

                  Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  Created our own off grid tiny houses community where we do more directly trading food, medicines, energy and most everything. We haven't figured transportation yet.
                  
                  More countries are trading rather than US Petro dollars. It's why US dollar is collapsing and crytocurrently is gaining.
                  
                  Covid is a tool of distraction and power.
                  Germ and disease are forever

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2. 87

   Valeantposted 2 years ago

   Saying that Covid is a diversion when a newer strain and much more contagious version of the virus is taking hold across the country is a nice bit of denialism, especially when the statistics can prove it. 
   
   Crime rose in the height of the pandemic, and Biden is working with local leaders to combat that.  Saying no one is working on the problems is very false, but not unexpected since the right-wing media bubble does not cover any positive actions this administration takes.  The former leader was too busy campaigning to be bothered with rising crime and let it fester.  At least now, we have someone addressing the issue.
   
   Contacts are up at the border thanks to the added rule that allows immigrants to be immediately turned back due to Covid reasons, but then free to try and enter again.  34% of those crossing in June were repeat crossers, up from 7% just two years ago.  In May, 38% were repeat crossers.  That 'border wide open' claim is not based in any reality:  https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 … e-trying-/

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   1. 95

      wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      What is Biden doing to help local leaders combat crime?
      
      He hasn't campaigned to increase police numbers (that I've heard) and hasn't offered any additional equipment.
      
      He certainly hasn't helped those near the border; instead he is stuffing motels with COVID cases here illegally.
      
      He isn't doing anything to decrease the numbers of illegal aliens in the country; instead he stopped deporting them.
      
      He isn't chasing down rioters anywhere but those at the capital riot; when Portland rioters cranked up again recently he did nothing.
      
      What IS he doing to combat crime?

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      1. 87

         Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         I found the information on Biden's recent actions pertaining to crime prevention in five seconds.  Try google, it's easy to find when you leave your far-right media bubble.
         
         Dan misinformation statement #1:  He hasn't campaigned to increase police numbers (that I've heard) and hasn't offered any additional equipment.
         
         Joe Biden, June 2020 - pledges $300 million for police should he be elected and stated:
         "Every single police department should have the money they need to institute real reforms like adopting a national use of force standard, buying body cameras, and recruiting more diverse police officers."
         
         And Portland police arrested multiple rioters in the recent riot on George Floyd's anniversary, so Biden didn't need to become a policeman on that night.  The laws were enforced just fine without him.  The Capitol was an insurrection, not a riot.
         
         As for the border, again, between 35-40% of those apprehended were repeat crossers freed under Trump's Covid deportation policy in May and June of 2021. 
         In May 2019, 144,000 immigrants were apprehended, this before Trump's new policy.  Just 7% were repeat crossers.
         
         In May 2021, 180,000 immigrants were apprehended, but let's be generous and say only 30% are repeat crossers.
         
         180,000 multiplied by 70% is 126,000.  That's actually less people than in 2019 (133,000).  Seems Trump's border crisis was worse, and his immediate deportation policy is leading to the inflation of the numbers since there isn't really a penalty for trying again.

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         1. 95

            wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            I perhaps mispoke on Biden campaigning for cops.  My intent was to indicate that he has neither said nor done anything to help police since elected.  I know he "pledged" money for them during his campaign, but campaign promises are generally empty of meaning.  As his apparently was.
            
            I'm sorry, but changing the terminology from "riot" to "insurrection" doesn't change anything.  CHAZ was an "insurrection", as was the multiple attacks on police and other buildings if you want to take that tack.  And Biden has done nothing to find those people.
            
            That illegal entries are often repeat violators does not mean Biden is actively taking steps to stem the charge into America.  Whether repeat or not does not change the illegality and does not indicate Biden is taking steps to stem the tide.  Indeed, Biden's words and actions, such as promising all illegal aliens would be granted citizenship or refusing to deport anyone not at the border, has badly exacerbated the problem.
            
            Nor does blaming Trump indicate Biden is actively trying to stop it; Trump's actions have nothing to do with what Biden is doing to stop the influx.

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            1. 87

               Valeantposted 2 years agoin reply to this

               'I perhaps mispoke on Biden campaigning for cops.  My intent was to indicate that he has neither said nor done anything to help police since elected.  I know he "pledged" money for them during his campaign, but campaign promises are generally empty of meaning.  As his apparently was.'
               
               Or maybe, as is the case many a time, you're speaking without doing any research and inventing things.  Biden urged the cities to use the $350 billion in the Covid relief package to hire more police, $50 million more than he originally pledged.  Cities such as Minneapolis have done just that.
               
               I am fine also using the term insurrection for CHAZ, and if the DOJ wants to press charges, that'd be well within their purview.  Seems that it would have been Trump's DOJ that should have pursued those charges though since he had six months to do so before leaving office. 
               
               Like funding of police, I doubt you have done much research on what Biden is actually doing at the border and just making assumptions that fit your own narrative.  And like police funding, I find you to be inventing things in terms of Biden's policy positions.  An eight year path to citizenship is not granting citizenship, nor does leaving Trump's Title 42 policy in effect a refusal to deport 'anyone at the border.'
               
               https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics … ion-mexico
               
               Helping all you angry conservatives understand that less people are crossing the border during this 'crisis' than in 2019 under the guy you praise for his handling of the border is just trying to explain the reality of the true numbers.  Since all you guys see is angry white people calling it a crisis and you get angry too, I thought it best to give you some perspective of how things are actually better than they were in 2019 as less people are trying to cross the border - just making more attempts because Trump helped shield them from prosecution by simply deporting them instead.

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3. 77

   Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

   I WILL NEVER get the vaccine.
   EVER.
   
   I will not have a card and I will not be able to do anything.
   what then?
      who will CARE?
   
   APPARENTLY 
   
                            N O 
                          O N E

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   1. 77

      Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      those no-ones can all go to U NO where.

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   2. 76

      Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Hey, I care and some other like the world's largest Covid, vaccines and mask protester ever in history of all protests. Rarely seen or heard on Media. We will overcome propreganda at its worst.

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      1. 77

         Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         well, Good!

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4. 95

   Readmikenowposted 2 years ago

   Problems with vaccine
   
   1. It is like no other vaccine before it on how it does its job.
   2. It is an experimental vaccine.  Nobody knows the long term effects or the long term side effects of it.  It has not been approved by the FDA.
   3. The numbers of infections and deaths from Covid provided by the CDC are bogus.  Why is the government hiding the truth?  Again, no testing to see if a cause of death is from Covid, just need to have Covid-like symptoms.  No need to test someone with Covid, they have Covid if they have Covid-like symptoms.
   4. Even with the vaccine, you can still catch Covid and die from it.
   5. If you are healthy, the survival rate for Covid is 99 percent.
   6. If the government is truly concerned about Covid, why are they letting thousands of infected illegal immigrants into the United States and sending them to various cities across the country?

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