Yes, Virginia, it IS US vs. THEM

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  1. Credence2 profile image78
    Credence2posted 12 months ago

    Never in modern times has their been an assualt of the Capitol Building and the symbolic meaning that it and its law processes represent. While US accepted the loss of our favored candidates in far closer election contests, THEM believes that the only acceptable outcome is when their candidate wins.

    The lines of partisanship in Washington between the two political parties have never been more formidable since the Civil War. For both sides, it is "all or nothing" these days.

    I will let you in on a secret. Republicans, in fear of changing demographics are now faced with the prospect of maintaining power through minority rule and that is tough while thinking of itself and presenting the world a standard of being a democratic-republic. This will lead to authoritarianism and facisistic tendencies, that can change the very nature of this society. That ought to be enough to keep you awake at night.

    While most of us appear to get along on an individual day to day level, the bigger picture is ominous indeed. Out of frustration and desperation, the radical Right will increase their assaults both physical and political making them ever more brazen, while the accomodators will be more hard pressed to find excuses for them.

    I once believed that we were all moving toward more progress in major concerns of American life, now I am not so confident. I have always prefer one course of politics over the other,  but you all already know that.

    Without a major readjustment from both sides, that shining light on the hill will burn out.

    1. Sharlee01 profile image84
      Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

      You have laid out a lot here...  I must say, I need to digest your words, and your opinion before I can comment.  Your words evoke me to ask myself many  --  hows and whys.

      1. Credence2 profile image78
        Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

        That is what I like about you, your tireless pursuit of the hows and whys.

    2. GA Anderson profile image90
      GA Andersonposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      Hey Bud, as you will see in my response to abwilliams, I was just gonna pass on this one, but what the hell.

      Nah, I gave it a thought, but I got nothing. :-)

      GA

      1. Credence2 profile image78
        Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

        That is OK, GA, I don't expect that most conservative oriented people would understand.

    3. Sharlee01 profile image84
      Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

      Never in modern times has there been an assault of the Capitol Building and the symbolic meaning that it and its law processes represent.  So, how did some American's find themselves on the steps of the Capitol, and then inside, and then some causing havoc? Could we look with a non-bias eye at what societal events with proceeds Jan 6th protest/riot? When Trump announced he was going to run for the presidency, he was mocked, insulted in every possible way, When he won, he faced many accusations.  Such as,  that he has colluded with Russia to win the election, he was accused of hiding his taxes for notorious reasons. He and his family were ridiculed with vile accusations of every kind.  He was literally hated by many just for winning.    There was no evidence that he had done anything. Only inuendos, that spurred hate. In the end, there was no there... Only an elaborate scheme by the opposing party to discredit their opponent.   But, the hate was there... and fed every day.     

      The people Trump made promises to, saw someone that was keeping promises or trying dam hard to keep them.  So, many felt and still feel he had their backs...    By the end of Trump's term, so many were doing better and felt better about their lives. So, did the people that came to the Capitol on that day let their emotions get the best of them, perhaps--- Did they feel at that point,   they would just have had his back, or did many believe he was cheated by fraud?    Could one of these reasons be why the protest occurred? Was it spurred on due to many emotions that had built up over the previous four years?     Are these same emotions feeding the current anger we see today?     

      While you claim to have accepted the loss of your favored candidates in far closer election contests?  Did you really? Did you ever state ---" she won the popular vote -- or he won because he colluded and conspired with Russia?   Actually, the media never accepted him as president.  Many even here today on  HP's can't move on from ruminating on him...   Hate is a powerful emotion.

      It's very evident that the lines of partisanship in Washington between the two political parties have never been more formidable since the Civil War.  It's  "all or nothing" these days.  Is it not human nature to dig in when attack time after time? Do we not attack them, and do they not attack us?    Our representatives in Washington represent us, in the case of Republican's they have quickly learned that the new Republican majority no longer wants what they handed out previously.  They are expected to take on a new persona, and actually, it's a more aggressive in-your-face persona. The Democrats have always had that talent.  So, we have a more evenly matched bunch in Washington at this point.  So, we have vitriol in our population, and vitriol in Washington. Yes, it does appear we are in a war. 

      Again how did we get here?  Does it once again take us back to where it started in 2016?  So, can "we the people" ever turn back time and have a do-over? Depends on us does it not?   If we all stay behind barriers, and only come out to fight, what gets done. who wins?   

         In my view, Conservatives care little about Government power, most hope to keep Government at arm's length. But, we do need at this, point powerful representatives that will help keep the Government out of our lives.   So,  does the Republican party only represents white people, or do they more exactly represent less Government and the Constitution?     Could this be where the problem starts? People of color have a different vision, and prefer more Government (to put it kindly) interaction?    What would more likely keep me up at night would be not wanting to have such discord in the country.     It seems  Democrats have had an epiphany in the past few years, and just are not satisfied with the Democracy many of us have enjoyed.  It appears some hope to usher in another form of Government.   

      Do you really think most of us appear to get along on an individual day-to-day level? I don't, I see parents protesting school board decisions, people fighting on airplanes, I see a president accuse border patrol agents of "strapping a man" before he was informed an investigation had not yet been started.  I see lots of hate and many that provoke hate.  And yes it's ominous.

        "Out of frustration and desperation, the radical Right will increase their assaults both physical and political making them ever more brazen, while the accommodators will be more hard-pressed to find excuses for them."

      Look around, we have come 9 months from the Jan 6th riot. I haven't witnessed any further violence in the form of protests... From either side.   

      Yet you clearly for one reason or another feel something could occur.   It's apparent you feel that we are taking steps backward.  I have on several occasions agreed with that sentiment.  But we both have different reasons for that belief.   I feel the strides we made although were slow at first, over the past 20 years had accelerated.  Now, I feel we have great stumbling blocks --- And they are blocks we have built.   Being spurred on by outside elements, to keep working on building more blocks. 

      I must ask, do you prefer the Democrat pre "great Divide" or the Democrat of today?  In my view, they differ greatly. 

      "As Ronald Reagan emphasized, America is a shining city upon a hill whose beacon light guides freedom-loving people everywhere.".

      The keywords from that statement, in my view, are freedom-loving people ---  Is this not what we have enjoyed, and cherished?   Yes, we have hard times, but we keep working on making things better.  Freedom provides us a fertile place to work unfettered, and have the chance to build on what we have already created.   Freedom should not be trifled with.  Government overreach does not provide freedom it usurps it.  One ends up with a new entity that dictates,   making all decisions, blanketing them under whatever class they fall into.   Do we owe the next generations what we have had, freedom to thrive, to create a dream, and work to accomplish that dream?  Do we owe them the right to make free decisions, freedom of speech without the threat of social
      persecution? 

      Look around my friend ... really look around, and really listen to what is being said.   It's very apparent we are being exposed to ideologies that are threatening democracy., and many of our freedoms.

      1. Credence2 profile image78
        Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

        Based on this Trump got on my $hitlist long before his campaign.

        https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/ … sm-history

        There is nothing that Joe Biden has done that comes even close. Trump had made his bed with me and others like me long before the beginning. A record that I would have expected from a David Duke or George Wallace. This man running for President and you all supported that. I never liked arrogant and pompous people and DT fit it to a "T".

        Far beyond slips of the tongue, the ugliness is part and parcel of who this man is.

        Republicans slavishly follow this man, I have to presume that they are on board with his modus-Operandi. Taking men like this seriously is a step backward. The rightwing radicals are biding their time and you can be confident that they will strike again, in an ever heinous fashion then they did the last time. So, much of the progress is revealed as akin to a toddler in mom's shopping cart equipped with a steering wheel. The kid twists and steers to his delight but the cart only goes where Mom wants it to go.

        We embrace government as allies in our struggle for rights and dignity in this society.  A differing attitude from that of white conservatives. Government served as a protection from "them".

        Many more of us want to enjoy that "democracy" in a broader and more fulfilling way.

        I prefer the Democrats of today that want to be more than just "watered down" Republicans.

        Im my private life, the neighbors still come by for a cup of sugar, while keeping their "rebel flags" well concealed in their garage. But, it is a free country, live and let live. The problems are not evident in my immediate environment.

        Government is our partner is making sure that the Liberty and freedom is enjoyed by all.

        The ideologies that are the threat from my perspectives are those of the right, that speak of freedom only for their cherished few, and subjugation for the many. I cannot be intimidated by the things that the Right naturally fears.

        1. abwilliams profile image67
          abwilliamsposted 12 months agoin reply to this

          Per usual Sharlee,
          CONTEXT is missing from the response to your heartfelt, honest take on why Donald Trump was embraced by so many.
          If you stop what you are doing right now and do a Google search  everything that comes up suggests the same as shared within the Vox link--- taken completely out of context!!
          As we know, Donald Trump's first words about Mexicans flooding across, was that Mexico doesn't send their best, they send their worst. If they wish to argue against the comment, it should start and end with, Mexico doesn't send them, they just come.  But, nevertheless, this tall tale remains, some basing their opinions on Trump long ago on a big fat lie. For this big fat lie to still be dominating at the top of a Google search, should tell people all they need to know!

          1. Credence2 profile image78
            Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

            I was just explaining why Donald Trump has been disliked and distrusted by so many....

            Just an attempt to explain an aspect of the origin of the US vs THEM scenario.

        2. Sharlee01 profile image84
          Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

          I made an effort to shed light on how and why we have come to this juncture in the road. My comment was not to impugn your opinion only to open up a new train of thought.  It is obvious you came by your opinion over many years and can justify it.  I had hoped to shed light on how the "Otherside feels"  and shed light on how they came to support Trump. The why's of it. The back and forth lead us nowhere and offer little understanding.  You believe Trump is a racist, I have more than proved with Biden quotes he also shows racist tendencies.  So, now that we have slapped one another with that ---  Have we fixed anything. Have we learned anything? Or have we turned around and went backward?

          "There is nothing that Joe Biden has done that comes even close"

          Do we need a scale when it comes to off-color remarks, a tally sheet?
          If it was Trump's racist remarks that added to your Con's list on Trump, where did Biden fall on the scale of being a racist?  So, did the thought of Trump being a racist added to your dislike for him? Why was Biden exempt from tour scorn?  On a scale, if one really wants to put weight on who has exhibited themself as a racist --- from his youth to today. Read this   --- https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documen … al-history

          And please keep in mind, it was not I that brought up this subject. But will point out some truths.  I read your Vox article --- please read my source.
          https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documen … al-history

          Social media users have been sharing content online that claims Democratic Presidential nominee Joe Biden eulogized Robert Byrd, asserting he was the grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan (KKK). This claim is partly false. Though various prominent politicians eulogized Byrd at his funeral, the senator was never the grand wizard of the KKK and he has acknowledged and apologized for his membership during his youth."
          Can this be ignored ---   https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact … SKBN26S2EE

          We both have formed opinions on who is a racist.  We have now countered one another info. --- have we moved forward, fixed anything
          Or has our "why's just promoted a deeper divide? 

          "We embrace government as allies in our struggle for rights and dignity in this society.  A differing attitude from that of white conservatives. The government served as a protection from "them".

          As a Republican, I can only offer a view to this statement.
          If you as a race have come to depend on a Government as an Allie it sets you apart.  It will always set you apart...  This is just human nature. If you set yourself apart as a people that need protection. You will always be on the outside looking in. You may need a new strategy in this respect.

          "In my private life, the neighbors still come by for a cup of sugar, while keeping their "rebel flags" well concealed in their garage. "
          Sound's as if you are assuming...  Could this be a sentiment that you have been conditioned to believe?  Would it not be healthier to take people at face value, and not project a "what if".

          I agree Government should make sure there are equal liberties. I am a Republican, I support liberties for all and true freedom.

          And yes it is apparent many of us on the right now feel, and yes fear. out freedoms are under attack.  This is one reason many of us support a man that is a fighter, we need one at this point.

          1. abwilliams profile image67
            abwilliamsposted 12 months agoin reply to this

            "And yes it is apparent many of us on the right now feel, and yes fear our freedoms are under attack.  This is one reason many of us support a man that is a fighter, we need one at this point."

            Amen and hear, hear!

            1. Sharlee01 profile image84
              Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

              I could go into such detail about why we feel like this. But until some will listen, it seems futile at this point. I hope at some point views shared will be considered, even researched. by the other side.  But for now, we have the right to express our thoughts, fears, and yes, to be involved in verbal battles to assure independence.

              1. abwilliams profile image67
                abwilliamsposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                Key words, "for now", it is so difficult to get the conservative viewpoint out there. We are muzzled at every turn, our means of expressing ourselves, limited!
                I really was shocked {not sure why, been seeing this for some time} when I Google searched to see what comes up in the year 2021 with the words/phrases, that always seemed to bite Trump in the butt, time and time again. I scrolled and scrolled before finally coming to a Breitbart article, showing the clip it in its entirety.
                Trump's words/phrasing, at times, may not be perfection, but only those eager to find fault would omit the crucial part about Mexico not wanting to send us their best...so instead the focus became the latter part about the worst...
                The same with Trump's same old, same old reaction where he throws up his hands, makes sounds, along with a grimacing face, when the subject is his critics. He did/does it, all of the time!! But, suddenly, one day, the story became, he was making fun of a handicapped person....it stuck! Etc. etc. you already know. smile

                1. Sharlee01 profile image84
                  Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  "Trump's words/phrasing, at times, may not be perfection, but only those eager to find fault would omit the crucial part about Mexico not wanting to send us their best...so instead the focus became the latter part about the worst..." 

                  This is a good clip that Trump goes into more detail on that statement and shows his very sincere demeanor when he made that statement.  This is an interview with CNN that is very worth listening to. Note the predicted what we are seeing today. at the border. He is truthful in his opinion, and this is what I most respect about him.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jaz1J0s-cL4

                  it is so difficult to get the conservative viewpoint out there. But, I feel a great difference today than I felt in June...  I truly feel the majority of American's are waking up to the fact the country is in trouble (as I feel) or is headed for trouble...  Fox's rating tells it all. People are listening to all the news. and maybe becoming aware they have not been getting all the news for some time.

                  I think our battle is downhill at this point. I think the Republicans in Washington know, we are awake and watching their every move.

                  Hey, I am praying

          2. Credence2 profile image78
            Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

            I read your source and it was quite a list. One of the reasons Biden gets so much support from my tribe is the simple fact that he did serve as Vice President under America's first African American president. How would any hardcore racist accommodate that? There are very few whites with whom I have been acquainted that did not reveal some racial bias whenever  the subject was raised. It has always came with the territory.

            The thought has never crossed my mind that you were trying to impugn my opinions and ideas. We are just opening doors and letting in some air.

            I have forgiven Robert Byrd, who apologized for his association with the Klan and remained Democrat getting on board with progressive agendas during the late 1960s and beyond. Unlike so many other Democrat senators he did not defect to the Republican Party, contributed to the Southern Strategy". The man was totally repentant in both action and word.

            As for the rebel flags, I am not assuming, I have seen them in many of the garages of neighbors. I can't help but to wonder if they are aware of what those symbols have meant to me and mine? Fortunately, that discussion does not come up over a "cup of sugar". We are closer to Government because the larger society and its behavior has forced us to find stout allies. Minorities based on their disadvantage in numbers are going to assume this position more often.

            If it weren't for the courts, national laws, etc, there is no reason not to believe that I would still be forced to the back of the bus. So, in many ways, we see government in a state of underreach. Certain people and groups need to be reminded that they simply cannot do what they want, when they want to whomever they want without being held accountable for their actions.

            Equal opportunity is at least as important as "equal liberties".

            So, how is it fixed? I don't know, thus the theme US vs THEM. I really have think hard about any common ground that I may share with conservatives, short of the desire to take the next breath. We may agree on the need to rein in wasteful spending in Washington, for example. But, we have different definitions as what constitutes waste verses necessity. We disagree on what constitutes "a fighter" as President. A leader needs to set the example, his standards and behavior needs to above and beyond those that he serves and leads.

            If you are interested, I did a couple of hubs on examples of ideal leaders, and what it was that made them effective. I am not "promoting", just want to see if we recognize leadership qualities in the same way.

            https://hubpages.com/religion-philosoph … ate-Part-I

            Regardless, I always find our chats to be welcome and revealing, thanks for that.

            1. Sharlee01 profile image84
              Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

              " How would any hardcore racist accommodate that?"

              Biden has been in Washington for 50 years, he goes totally with the wind, as some politicians do. Obama was very smart in choosing Joe. Joe would be in a corner, pretty much silent...Obama is a strong man, he clearly wanted to make his agenda heard, and he needed a guy that would sit in a corner --- what did he call him --"Uncle Joe".

              "There are very few whites with whom I have been acquainted that did not reveal some racial bias whenever  the subject was raised. It has always came with the territory."

              OK... But really?  Could you consider that perhaps being white has nothing to do with it? Could it be cultural, different upbringing, different problems, different ways of looking at things?  Is it racist that I might like hot dogs and hamburgers over the grill, and maybe you like steak...  Could you be looking at something that is not always there? I in no respect think the majority of white people are racist. Some are... Many are not.

              "I have forgiven Robert Byrd, who apologized for his association with the Klan and remained Democrat getting on board with progressive agendas during the late 1960s and beyond. "

              This is truly great common sense, and who could argue forgiveness... I commend those that can forgive and move forward.

              "As for the rebel flags, I am not assuming, I have seen them in many of the garages of neighbors. I can't help but to wonder if they are aware of what those symbols have meant to me and mine?"

              Totally get your point... But are they aware that their flag offends you, and why?  Could it be if they were made aware of your feelings one on one, they might see that these types of flags offend some, and get rid of it.  By being open and honest one-on-one helps us go forward.

              " Fortunately, that discussion does not come up over a "cup of sugar"
              But it should, in a friendly one on one approach. The only way people learn someone else's thoughts are if they are shared. 

              "If it weren't for the courts, national laws, etc, there is no reason not to believe that I would still be forced to the back of the bus. "

              Again true... This is what is one of the wonderful things about America, we do have Government to face the hard problems of systemic racism. We have two parties. Both having clearly different ideas of how to move forward in regard to fixing systemic racism.  We both know the two parties look at the problem differently,  Republicans look through conservative eyes, liberals through liberal eyes. This will most likely never change...

              " Certain people and groups need to be reminded that they simply cannot do what they want when they want to whomever they want without being held accountable for their actions."

              Do you believe in free speech? Do you believe in protest?  Do you believe both sides are mad, and pushing back?  Does only one side have those rights?  Using the words "certain people" could be taken as only one side needs to be accountable. Because from my seat, both sides have raised lots of hell. Yes, very different causes,   protesting a horrendous crime, and protesting a very explosive political election.  It's called freedom of speech, freedom to protest.

              " But, we have different definitions as what constitutes waste versus necessity"

              You never asked you are assuming. Like you assume those that own a certain flag hope to promote racism.  Part of the problem is compartmentalizing.

              "We disagree on what constitutes "a fighter" as President. A leader needs to set the example, his standards and behavior needs to above and beyond those that he serves and leads."

              I disagree, our representatives have shown by their actions that words are cheap. rehearsed speeches are well-written words that are as a rule not heartfelt.  Years ago, I would have fully agreed with your sentiment.  Today, I can't agree. I found Trump strong due to his work ethic while in the White House. I respected him for being open and transparent.  Did I respect some of his belligerent words --- no I did not.  But, I respected his deeds and felt he used common sense when he came up against a problem. I felt safe. I don't now... I felt the county was in good hands, I don't now.  And the polls say I am not alone.

              I am always interested to see what friends here at HP are up to. I always enjoy our conversations.

              1. Credence2 profile image78
                Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                Well, I have to wonder where the systemic racism comes from, the whole have to consist of component parts?

                I don't blame the whites, again in a society where systemic racism still exists people may well come to conclusions and observations subconsciously. It can come down to the emphasis given the young blond woman found dead in Montana recently, why all the press attention when there are virtually hundreds of people of color missing every day? What is the basis of these attitudes and assumptions? I would not say all whites are racists, but we cannot deny that "race" remains a component in the conduct of American life. If it is not (you) then who is it?

                How is systemic racism seriously address by conservatives? All I have seen is a desire to water American history down to "George Washington never told a lie". You can start by acknowledging the truth regarding the movers and shakers of American history.

                All sides have rights, Sharlee. But those rights and legal obligations derive from the force of law and jurisprudence and that means that the Government is involved.

                I have seen the rebel flag in race intimidating context, too often. But because of the possibility of comments heard from some Southeners about culture and pride, I have held back my opinion. So, I give my neighbors the benefit of the doubt. After all, why rock the boat as we currently get along? I have no more right to question the paraphernalia in their house any more than they could question a portrait of Malcolm X that I have in mine.

                But it is true that the Right and Left have different spending priorities for the Federal budget, so one side's treasure is another side's waste.

                I will grant you a point that much of the angst can be placed on cultural difference, points of view, background, etc. but when you look at the electorate, the Republicans are virtually an all white party. The Democrats are more representive of a variety of differing ethnic groups.  So those differences seem to be stark enough to show themselves politically. What explains the cultural differences as so great between white and nonwhite to the point where we are basically on opposite poles, politically?

                Both words and actions cannot be cheap. I am not keen to follow people who say, "do as I say and not as I do". We are always going to disagree about Trump and our assessment of him. Thus the divide, I want different policies from my leader and government than you may be comfortable with, trying not to compartmentalize.

                I am open to compromise, but we have to start by acknowledging who won the election and whose agenda attracted the majority of the American electorate.

                1. Sharlee01 profile image84
                  Sharlee01posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  Among today’s senators and representatives, the overwhelming majority of racial and ethnic minority members are Democrats (83%), while 17% are Republicans.

                  This represents a shift from the last Congress when just 10% of non-White lawmakers were Republicans. So, it is obvious more Blacks are running and winning in the Republican party.  Our history shows Blacks are more prone to be Democrats, and this could be why more run and win in the Democratic party.  This gives could prove that Black people do not as a rule care for conservative ideals or what they offer as representatives in the way of policies.

                  It is hard to determine how many American's feel that Trump won the election. I think excepted Biden won, but wish Trump would have won.

                  "But those rights and legal obligations derive from the force of law and jurisprudence and that means that the Government is involved."

                  I think we need Government to make sensible common-sense laws,  that do not step on our freedom. Or use Federal overreach to push agendas in local and state laws.

  2. abwilliams profile image67
    abwilliamsposted 12 months ago

    Hi Sharlee,
    This should give it some context. He is responding, indirectly, to this post of mine:

    While half of this Country understands what is at stake; power-hungry radicals in charge, those whom would send ALL OF US into a life of servitude and peasantry, in a heartbeat; to a place where Government  holds all the power over the people (rather than the other way around) where freedom gets replaced with chains, where the American dream gets replaced with despair, where quality of life gets replaced with just trying to survive the day.......the other half resists, THINKING this is somehow all about us vs. them.
    This is how it's done, this is how we lose this Republic.

    1. GA Anderson profile image90
      GA Andersonposted 12 months agoin reply to this

      I was just going to chalk this one up to Cred being Cred, (;-0), and your added context seems on the mark. I do think there was a bit of hyperbole in your comment, here and there, but it did carry the point.

      GA

      1. abwilliams profile image67
        abwilliamsposted 12 months agoin reply to this

        Good, I'm glad it carried. Hyberbole? This was the condensed version. wink

    2. Credence2 profile image78
      Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

      Your last comment on the thread that was cut was the inspiration for this current thread.

      There can only be one winner, your "half" was not enough. My idea of the American dream is different from your view.

      I just got rid of the worse of the power hungry radicals last January 20th.

      1. abwilliams profile image67
        abwilliamsposted 12 months agoin reply to this

        abwilliams profile image
        abwilliams 5 hours ago:

        I find this response very interesting Mike.
        While half of this Country understands what is at stake; power-hungry radicals in charge, those whom would send ALL OF US into a life of servitude and peasantry, in a heartbeat; to a place where Government  holds all the power over the people (rather than the other way around) where freedom gets replaced with chains, where the American dream gets replaced with despair, where quality of life gets replaced with just trying to survive the day.......the other half resists, THINKING this is somehow all about us vs. them.
        This is how it's done, this is how we lose this Republic.

        P.S. This may come off as off-topic, but it really does go hand-in-hand with your initial topic and discussion and the various directions it has taken us

      2. Ken Burgess profile image86
        Ken Burgessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

        What we are at risk of losing, if it has not already been lost, is the Pendulum Swinging in our Political system.

        You may despise what you believe the Republicans represent, and I may despise what the Democrats represent, but through the swing back and forth throughout this Nation's history from one party holding power to the other, the country has moved forward.

        In joining the Global Community, in accepting a role of One Country Among Many, in perhaps ceding America's position of leadership on the global stage to the UN, to China, to a group of international entities (WB, IMF, WTO) we give up that governmental uniqueness, that Nation independence... that Democratic Republic for something less.

        We may become part of a greater Global community... but it will come at the expense of the Democratic Republic we have enjoyed during our lifetimes.

        You cannot accept the authority of higher institutions and remain the ultimate authority... America giving up its sovereignty by accepting the dictates of International powers, it ultimately has to give up the legitimacy of the Republic, the rule of the people over the National government.

        They will hide this reality from the populace, they will let you believe there is a difference in the Parties (and there will be) but the direction the Nation goes, the economy goes, the rights and freedoms we have, will no longer be under our control... or within our National government's ability to control.

        1. Credence2 profile image78
          Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

          The "pendulum swing" is just how things turned and certainly was not be design. Without compromise in the milieu of the "all or nothing" Washington today, it may well disappear.

          Well, Ken, We are one country among many. I don't need to dominate the planet to maintain my national sovereignty concerning American affairs.

          Total Control and power should neither be within our purview nor that of China. That Is what the UN is for, we solve global problems, together. Everybody has a say, yet each nation has its own sovereign interests. Who is to say that ours is to be considered first and foremost within the international community?

          I don't need to dominate or control others, it is an archaic concept in international affairs. I maintain my sovereignty and rights as an American citizen, I need nothing more.

          I don't like big kahunas and those that think they are always to be considered first among equals. I lived with people like that within this culture and I never liked it and will resist it just on principle. That applies to domestic politics as well as international ones.

          I will keep my rights and freedoms without the need to impose my will upon those that live outside of our shores.

          1. wilderness profile image94
            wildernessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

            You should ask those that voted for Brexit why they did.  It wasn't because Britain wanted to be a Kahuna in Europe's affairs; it was because the EU demanded that it be the Kahuna in Britain's affairs.

            That's what the "global community" demands; that the US follow it's edicts in purely American affairs.  And it's why we would be such fools to ever participate in such a thing, for the "global community" has no recognition of the kind of freedom American offers.

            1. Credence2 profile image78
              Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

              I understand, but why a League of Nations or United Nations?

              If every nation considered just it own interests withou any attempt to work in concert, what keeps the peace? America has 800 to 900 installations worldwide, can you see it clear that perhaps we are too involved in the affairs of others?

              I don't want other nations interfering in American affairs, but on the same vein we should keep our noses out of the affairs of others in return. And the latter is a bigger problem than the former, in my opinion.

              1. wilderness profile image94
                wildernessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                I agree that we are not (or should not be) the policeman of the world.

                At the same time I can understand the feelings of, say, women looking at the plight of women in the middle east.  Can you?

                I don't have any real answer to such things.  Do you?

                1. Credence2 profile image78
                  Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  Some ideas about solutions.

                  We abandon the idea of "nation building", reshaping a society in the American image. It remains a fool's errand with unacceptable costs in blood and treasure.

                  Every culture is different and there are plenty varied practices around the world that would offend Americans and the West in general. But under what authority do we have to change it? As long as that keep their practices where they are and not try to change other societies against their will, that is as far as I can go. The outrage of America toward these practices regarding women is feigned, at best. We have been doing business with the Saudi and other oil rich nations in the region for years. Are we really all that upset? In this world, sheer averice has always trumped any real concern about human rights.

                  Today, America simply does not have the resources to go chasing after every perceived bad guy.

            2. Ken Burgess profile image86
              Ken Burgessposted 12 months agoin reply to this

              This is the reality, one which our current politicians who are in control in DC now race America into.

              Credence speaks to a falsehood, a fabrication in his mind, where he thinks  "I will keep my rights and freedoms", he won't... he will/is sacrificing them.

              1. Credence2 profile image78
                Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                I can't keep my rights and freedoms short of depriving everyone else of theirs,  the refuge of every bully?

                1. gmwilliams profile image84
                  gmwilliamsposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                  Rights are earned buddy.   There are some people who haven't earned any rights thus they SHOULDN'T have any rights.

                  1. Credence2 profile image78
                    Credence2posted 12 months agoin reply to this

                    Who are you to say whom has earned rights and who have not? Everyone has rights, that is the basic problem with the Rightwinger attitude.

              2. gmwilliams profile image84
                gmwilliamsposted 12 months agoin reply to this

                Ken, there are those who live in Ozland, not in reality.

  3. abwilliams profile image67
    abwilliamsposted 12 months ago

    Hey, I am praying too and I am all for throwing all the bums out, Mitch McConnell included, they do us no favors!
    Nice chatting with you.

  4. Sharlee01 profile image84
    Sharlee01posted 12 months ago

    I am with you if this bunch does not hold strong on the Build Back Better... I think time to clean the house.

 
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