Infrastructure Bill Passed... Finally!
Finally, the House Democrats were able to shove aside a few of their fringe extremists who were determined to hold the Bill hostage until they got every little whim they wanted... and with the help of a few moderate Republicans they pushed it across the finish line.
Solar made it into the final cut, a proposed 10-year extension and phase down of an expanded direct-pay investment tax credit and production tax credit for clean energy generation and storage. Yay for all home owners who wanted to install a Solar system with Battery back-up, freeing them from needing to be tied to the Grid/Power companies!
EV Rebates, either full amount regardless of tax rebate eligibility, or point of sale rebates and tax incentives to buy EVs that are affordable, the range runs from $55k for Sedans to $80k for Trucks. For new vehicles we are looking at $7,500 with other adds depending on battery size, made in America, etc. Big win for those wanting to rid themselves of gas vehicles and make the switch to the much better EVs.
Lots of other benefits, for the economy, for jobs, for better Roads and improved Grid, etc.
Thoughts?Only one thought. What does the bill's passing do to the Progressives' power?
I think it is greatly diminished. I think it is the hill they died on. They took on Pelosi and lost.
GAI think those "Progressives' took on the entire Establishment... similar to how Trump took it on.
The Infrastructure Bill was passed by the Senate, if it had been passed by the House immediately thereafter, I think a negative emphasis would have been on the Republicans in the Senate for giving in and giving over to the Democrats, further eroding their support... it would have been a win for the Democrats.
The 'Progressives' known as "the Squad" along with Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman voted No on Infrastructure Bill... this group is what held it up for months.
In doing what they did, they turned what should have been a victory for the Democrats into a defeat, made the entire Party seem too radical to most Americans... as they suffer with higher gas prices, higher costs in the grocery store and a President forcing his Mandate onto the Country costing millions of people their jobs.
Passing it now will actually look as much like a win for the Republicans as anything. Just shows you how inept the current leadership in DC is.
I have not really been able to read the bill, can't find it. However, what has been reported sounds very positive. It is clear we need to upgrade all forms of our infrastructure. Due to the pandemic and all the cash that has been poured into our economy, not sure we could not have waited just a bit, and just let things naturally settle for a while. I worry about inflation, Will too much money in circulation cause inflation?
If we pour more cash, and too much money is circulating — both cash and credit — will this then will our dollar decrease, and ultimately keep us in a state of growing inflation?
We needed an infrastructure bill, but do we need it right now? In my view, we have such disarray in the White House, caution is being thrown to the wind.We needed an infrastructure bill, but do we need it right now?"
The answer is "yes", we need it right now. When bridges collapse, people die, and even if they are closed prior to actual collapse it can cause massive disruption in our transportation system.
But we don't need rural broadband right now. We don't need massive spending on mass transit right now. We don't need country wide EV charging stations right now. We need these things, but a year or two will not cause the immense damage that collapsing bridges will.Must agree safe bridges are a must. It would seem over the years states did not take the responsibility of keeping bridges safe seriously. My common sense tells me many American's will not be able to afford Electric cars as quickly as the Government hopes them to. It would be wonderful if more could, but realistically the price of an electric car will need to come down, and that could take some time. I think as always those that make small incomes will suffer the most with the passing of this bill. I really feel we are headed for serious inflation and all the problems that inflation brings.
The reality for America is that we are quickly and seriously falling behind both China and the EU.
In the world of EVs... if not for Tesla there would not be an American automaker to survive 2030... at least come 2030 we will still have Tesla if nothing else.
China will be producing most of the world's EVs, GM and Ford and the rest in Europe have fallen too far behind, and are too tied to Oil/Gas to ever catch up... we are going to watch them try and fail miserably to make the change. Unless the government bails GM and Ford out... which it most likely will do because our system is so corrupt, we help failing industries thrive, while trying to hold back the innovators (ie - Tesla) that are changing the world.
Both China and the EU will have converted near completely to EVs before 2030 arrives (countries like Norway are already to the point where no ICE vehicle sales will be allowed come 2025)... this includes building the infrastructure necessary to support those EVs.
America is trailing behind and if it doesn't get serious in transitioning and supporting Tesla rather than trying to hinder it, this will just be one more factor in America becoming the world's 3rd largest Economy behind both China and the EU.I totally agree with your sentiment, it is pretty well indisputable.
However, realistically just not sure the people that buy all those used cars will be able to come along for the ride...People who buy used cars will buy used EVs... I did.
Bought a 2012 Volt in ...2017? ish... I was not going to buy a car that ran on a battery for full price until I tested it out.
Then the Equinox I bought my wife started to have major issues right after (and I mean right after) it went past 50,000 miles and needed thousands of dollars of work... conveniently right after the majority of warranties end.
So instead I traded that in for a slightly USED Bolt that had only 856 miles on it (and because of that it was $10k below the cost of a new one) and between the two vehicles I have not spent one dime on gas or maintenance in over a year.
No oil changes... no starter, alternator, transmission, etc. failures... just plug it in at night and go in the morning.
Our power costs have gone up less than ten dollars a month despite the two vehicles. Essentially taking some $50 - 100 gas expenses per week out of our costs.
Best yet... because the Bolt model has had battery issues GM is going to recall the car and replace the entire battery pack, which will also have a 8 year 100,000 mile warranty.... basically we are getting a new car at no additional cost to us.When I bought my Volt I investigated and changed over to time-of-day electric rates. My bill never changed although we often went several months without buying gas at all - running of the battery nearly every day and charging it at night at home.
Every household is different ( I'm totally electric with some of the lowest electric rates in the country), but you might check into that.It certainly sounds as if owning an EV can be economical. If on a road trip, how long does it take to charge at a charging station?
L3: “fast charging” is typically 50 kW or greater. Tesla’s superchargers are capable of about 120 kW at peak rates. With L3 charging, a 60 kWh battery can be fully charged in an hour or so.
The problem is only Tesla has such super chargers and only Teslas can be charged that fast... our Chevy vehicles take two hours just to get 40 miles added best case scenario.... Tesla is the only way to go if you want a car you can travel the country with.Right. My Toyota Rav 4 prime took 2 1/2 hours to get about 50 miles on a level 2 charger and won't accept it any faster. The Chevy Volt was even slower - seems like 4 hours or so to get 38 miles. I bought more charger than the Volt would take, thinking of the future.
This is why the competition has already lost, by the time Legacy Auto gets to where Tesla is today, Tesla will still be 5 years ahead of them and producing a better more capable product.
Once Tesla starts making vehicles in the millions a year (by the end of 2022 they should be producing over 2 million) and Chinese EVs start crossing over to America it will be lights out for ICE vehicle sales... they will be almost nothing by 2025.
I would guess more would choose to fly than drive any long distance. But in general, that defeats the climate benefits. Perhaps the battery power will improve. overtime. I think an EV would be great for a second car.
To stress the point of where we (USA & EVs) are at.
Tesla is better than a gas vehicle for long range trips or around town.
The reason for this is Tesla built up a National Infrastructure for its own vehicles, you can literally go anywhere in America with confidence that a quick recharge is within range.
For ALL other EVs... Chevy, Ford, all the rest, they DON'T have a dependable infrastructure, they DON'T have fast recharge capability and their vehicles just aren't as good.
So... if you get a Tesla you are fine.
For everything else... you are right, they are not good for interstate travel.
They are not good for much more than anything within an hours drive.
So as you say, a second vehicle... something we have become aware of, too well, with our Bolt.
Its why we will soon own a Tesla despite it not being something I really want to put money into (another vehicle) its become almost a necessity to have that long range ability as well as be free from the rising costs of gas.My solution was a plug in hybrid - the new Toyota Rav4 prime. I can typically go about 50 miles on a charge (summertime - I never got a chance to try the winter), which satisfies most of my needs. On the rare instance I go out of town it still has the gas engine.
I last filled up in July, then made a 160 mile drive home followed by a 200 mile drive to a resort town. Still shows 72 miles of gasoline travel in the tank. (I have caught it running the gas engine for no apparent reason - presumably to keep seals and such lubricated.
I realize that perhaps my longer distance trips are fewer than for others, but for me it is the perfect fit. Now if I can just find another one to replace the one wrecked by a careless driver.I have a Volt, which runs on both, allowing for long distance.
What I want is the freedom from Gas all together (and Oil, Engine Repairs, etc.) only Tesla offers that right now.Tesla may offer that to you, in your area of travel, but not in mine. Even in a Tesla travel planning, looking for charge stations (and hoping the only one in town isn't in use or broken down), would be an absolute necessity.
For example, I'm planning a Thanksgiving trip from Boise, Id. to Coeur D' Alene Id. Some 400 miles which will require at least one charge and, given the cold temperatures, likely 2 charges. And I find only a couple of locations with chargers on the entire trip. The first one is in Grangeville, Id. - some 217 miles from me, and a distance that is questionable given mountainous, cold, snowy, winter driving. The West, outside of the coastal areas, is just not adequately supplied with charge stations, not even Tesla ones.Fair point.
Up and down the East Coast, across the Southern States from CA to FL, making a trip with a Tesla is a fairly easy go.
Upper Western and Central USA, not so much. Those fly-over areas are not so EV friendly.
But I live in Florida and have no plans on using a car for travel more than to NC or perhaps as far up as MA in a very rare situation... so for my needs a Tesla will do just fine.
Unfortunately for the foreseeable future... it will be a Tesla or a Gas vehicle for my needs, with no real other options, and I so dislike using and paying for gas.That's it. Anywhere the population density is up (typically coastlines, but some other places as well) the system isn't too bad. Where there aren't a lot of people, and distances between cities is long it sucks. And that's exactly where I live.
No EV for me, but a plug in hybrid is a super option for my lifestyle and geography.
America has a long way to go to convert to EV's. First is a truly massive investment in infrastructure - something that Biden's plans only begin to address. Second is that, even with multiple charging points on every street corner we still need a batter that can be charged in a reasonable time - even the quick charging Tesla is far too slow for long distance travel. It's fine for home, or to recharge while at work...worthless for travelling several thousand miles.
Can't predict where battery technology will go (although it would take several years for a new battery to be tested and put into common production) but that huge infrastructure is many years away at full effort.Ken, the EU is running into serious problems if mobility is to be all electric until 2030. In rough terms, this task will require some additional 200 to 250 % of current electricity production. And the electricity generation should better be CO2 neutral.
Already now in Europe with EV sales picking up all over the place, spot market price for electricity has doubled within 6 months. And i am talking from a producer perspective (i run fairly large photovoltaik systems), not from a consumer perspective.
It is easy talk from politicians to proclaim goals ( no matter in the US, the EU or anywhere else on our planet). The tough part is making this reality.Interesting information.
Adds to my own desire to have a strong solar power and battery system.
My plans are to buy into the Tesla ecosystem... the Solar, Power Wall, Car, Truck, Cellphone, and software.
This should allow me to be self-sufficient power wise, and allow me to integrate the vehicles as emergency power sources, which as I understand it Tesla vehicles are manufactured with the ability to be able to flow power both ways, they just haven't "turned on" this ability in them yet.
Just waiting for that Infrastructure Bill to be signed by the President and go into effect.Ken, I always try to create business cases without tax credits or subsidies. Having said this, i have little faith in the commercial feasibiity of battery systems.
What does make sense is have a decent size solar system on your roof. Takes about 6-7 square meter per kW peak power. Depending on where you live, you get some 1000 kWh/year out of 1 kW installed. Make the max. solar power output roughly 3 times as high as your annual electricity bill shows (for a 6.000 kWh bill put up 18 kWp on your roof).
Now comes the trick. If you have an EV, then install a bidirectional charging point in your garage. That will allow firstly the car battery to be filled by the solar system, but secondly and mainly have the car battery supply your home at night time.
Of course this requires the legal and technical means to do so. I got used to driving a Volvo XC90 and model year 2023 will have an all eletric drive model with bidirectional charging capability. Guess what i am waiting for.
This Tesla Power Wall stuff or equivalent systems are imho always too small, too costly and a waste of effort.
Looks like we are all waiting for the legal pathway (for the US the infrastructure bill, for the EU and Germany it is the reform of the green energy bill) and the corresponding technical availablity.Certainly good advice, you are by no means the only one who has said a Tesla Power Wall is not worth the investment.
I believe the entire cost of the the Solar System and Power Wall qualifies for whatever incentives are available in the Infrastructure Bill... so I will have to consider this.
I also have to consider what if the vehicle is not there, what will there be to fall back on, what will keep the necessary items receiving power when there is an power outage?
Part of the reason I want to put such a system in is so that I am not reliant on a power company for power, be it because of a power outage, or because the cost of power continues to climb.
Like my aversion to ICE vehicles and Gas, I prefer to be as free from the grid as possible, and I am willing to pay a bit extra to have that freedom.Why not stay hooked to the grid (possibly with a manual switch) but with enough "home grown" power to take care of day to day essentials.
And when your car is wrecked, or not at home, or your battery fails for some reason (squirrels ate the wire) you still have emergency power via the grid.That would be the plan, that is a fairly common way it is done, for those willing to pay out the extra cash for the additional components.
Most people are happy with Solar Panels that power their home during the day and the extra goes back into the grid (for a fraction of what it is worth) while using the grid the rest of the time.
I have a desire to be self-sufficient, with minimal if not no grid support ever needed... I realize that such a system will cost me twice the amount one that relies on, and supplements the grid will.
When I first began researching such systems back in 2008, people were creating them using garage sized reinforced sheds to store car batteries linked together to form a large enough 'battery pack' to support the home's needs (on a good day).
To think that we are at a place now, where I can use my car as a 'battery pack', in addition to a 'power wall' that is less intrusive than a Dryer or Hot Water Heater and essentially be freed from paying for my electricity... its difficult to believe its within the means for someone who has to work for a living to afford... really incredible that you no longer have to be a millionaire to make it a reality.Really? Double the cost of the system for a battery (hopefully "free" in the form of a car that you will have other uses for)? Even without the car, surely a battery doesn't cost what the production element (likely solar cells, but I'm seeing home windmills as well) plus the controls do? I admit I haven't researched it at all, and am trying to educate myself, but that doesn't seem reasonable.
Of course much depends on your power requirements. I'm totally electric - no gas, no oil, no propane...nothing but electricity as the sole power source for my home, and that means a large electric demand. Particularly in winter when temperatures fall to well below freezing.
And there are alternatives. I knew a fellow once that had a small machine shop as well as his home and he powered it all with hydro from a stream on his property. An underground home built of septic tanks that failed the inspection in the production process, South facing windows with the rest completely underground (grass on the roof) and a large heat sink wall behind those windows. It actually worked, although he wasn't real serious about his machine shop.wilderness, Ken,
i am always a little bit concerned about batteries. What is the lifetime of a battery? How man charging cycles do they do? Or in financial terms (without subsidies or tax credits): Is the paypack period longer than the operating period?
For solar panels i am sure, they last 20 years and longer. For solar panels something called degradation is defined (kind of an aging process). But my experience is that the power loss is nowhere near catalogue values. A 10 year old system produces as much power today as it did from the start.
Concerning EV to be the battery: What about the cheapest European EV on the market: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDckillJUnw
This city car has roughly twice the battery capacity of a Tesla Power Wall for 50% higher cost. Besides going shopping with the little car, you get a mobile battery :-)I'm a little confused about using the car for night time home operation. Use the car to commute to work (draining the battery) and then again at night (draining it again) - when does it get charged? The power requirements to charge a large battery in just a couple of hours, plus run the home at the same time, are huge!
That would depend on a lot of factors, make, type, etc.
Consider that I own a ten year old Volt, the battery still charges and holds the same range value it did ten years ago.
The battery gets used and recharged about 330 days out of the year. I feel it is safe to say it has a couple more years left in it at the minimum.
So one should feel comfortable with the idea that today's Power Walls will get between a dozen and twenty years of use, if made by a top company.That's interesting - I found definite degradation of my Volt battery in only 6 years. Something along the line of 20% or more. I don't own the car anymore, but have to wonder if there was a defect somewhere in either the car or the battery.
A lot of early Volts did have battery issues, including the one I own, where a section of the 3 sectioned battery (going off of memory) was replaced in 2014 and another component was replaced in 2017.
Battery technology has advanced immensely in the last ten years since that battery system was created.
I am sure there would be degradation over time. But anything that can realistically be depended upon to last a dozen years or more is a relevant option in my book.
I expect the cost of power to rise drastically in the years ahead, doubling or tripling during those 12 years... when I calculate whether it is a good investment, I keep in mind two vital things most don't factor.
The value of the dollar being less as time goes on.
The cost in energy going up.
Example... I considered the cost of repairs for our Equinox, considering that ICE vehicles are designed to need maintenance and replacement parts consistently after 50,000 miles, oil changes too.
I also considered that Biden had just won the election, I knew that guaranteed the cost of gas would go up (I expect that to be an even bigger issue after the mid-term elections).
If I had based my decisions to trade in the Equinox without considering rising maintenance costs and rising gas prices, I probably would not have traded it in for what was essentially a new Volt (less than 1,000 miles on it) despite what was a discounted price.
But when I considered the likelihood of gas prices going back up to $4.00 a gallon and additional breakdown issues (starter, alternator, muffler) it became a no-brainer decision.
So when considering a Solar system today, I project where I think things will go. I expect KWh prices to double, at the minimum, in the next ten years.
I expect regulations to get stricter for installing Solar Systems, here in Florida back in 2016 the Power Companies tried to get an Amendment to the State Constitution to restrict property owners from installing Solar Systems without their consent and without tying into their grid.
Florida voters rejected Amendment 1, the utility-backed measure to limit rooftop solar expansion, after a scrappy, grassroots campaign and last-minute revelations raised doubts about the proponents’ claims that their goal was to expand solar generation.
The amendment attempted to use the popularity of solar to embed new language into the Florida Constitution that could have been used as a legal barrier on solar users and installation companies.
A bipartisan coalition of solar advocates that included dozens of solar manufacturers, tea party groups and environmental organizations formed Floridians for Solar Choice to oppose the measure. They blasted the utility companies’ approach and, within minutes after polls closed in North Florida, proclaimed it a “David v. Goliath” victory that “won against all odds.”
“We defeated one of the most egregious and underhanded attempts at voter manipulation in this state’s history,” said Tory Perfetti, chairman of Floridians for Solar Choice.
I recognize that installing a self-sufficient solar system might not be something that can be done ten years from now, or it might require a person to get boatloads of permits and permissions that currently are not required.
So it is a balance between a variety of things... one thing I learned watching my father build the first two houses I ever lived in... he was self taught, did everything from pour the foundation to run the plumbing to installing all the wiring, with the help of family and friends... today there is no place I know of in America where you can do that without having licensed Electricians, Plumbers, Engineers, etc. being involved.
Times change... right now might be the Golden Years of Solar... before the Power Companies use their influence to get politicians to make having a Solar System that can work independently from the grid all but illegal.You may be right about this being the Golden Years of Solar, but I rather doubt it. I foresee more and more homes off-grid, or at a minimum hooked to the grid but not using it.
As far as DIY, you can still do that where I live (although I'm not familiar with the rules for all the different trades)...but all work must pass inspection and current laws. The truth is that precious few homeowners are familiar enough with all the rules to successfully build their own home, but it is not illegal. I was an electrician, for instance, but have not kept up with code changes for a decade now - I wouldn't know all the current code for wiring a house and certainly not for installing alternative forms of energy.I brought that example up merely to show how drastically things can change, I do believe you live in a less restrictive part of the country than you will find anywhere on the East Coast.
I would not want to install the solar system myself because I realize my entire system needs to be redone, on top of the Solar system and Power wall... nothing the home I live in is currently fit to allow such, my house wouldn't pass any of today's codes, everything would have to be redone, lines run, breaker box, switches, etc. all replaced.
It will be no small cost, regardless of the Infrastructure Bill incentives, but I firmly believe putting it off will only lead to larger costs and more permits and codes being created that will get in the way of it being completed years into the future.I'm sure you're right that there will be more codes and more permits in the future. As we learn, through experience, what can happen, or what might happen with such a system more things will have to be addressed.
How do you ensure, for instance, that it is not only unlikely but impossible for the inverter providing 240 volts from a battery to ever, under any circumstances, give more than that? How do you make it impossible, if hooked to the grid, for your system to provide power to that grid when it is shut down and linemen working on it? How do you make it impossible for your system to provide more that 60 cycle AC current, or supply voltage to the grid that is out of phase with what is already there? Regardless of damage or malfunction of your equipment, how do you accomplish such things?
I don't know these answers, but I'm pretty sure there will be more questions similar to these in the future. I've seen houses wired with baling wire (literally, uninsulated wire intended to bale hay with) and zero grounding, I've seen hot tubs wired with wire 3 sizes too small that literally crumbled the plug at the house end into plastic chips and powder. The power in a normal house is nothing to play around with and doubly so with huge batteries or backfeeding power into the grid.I understand what you are saying, and I happen to agree, which is why I don't plan on installing any part of this new system and will only hire licensed electricians myself.
My efforts on the electrical frontier pretty much begin and end with replacing switches, outlets and ceiling fans. I know enough not to reverse the polarity and properly ground and that's about it.
What I am more concerned about is explained here:
https://www.primalsurvivor.net/living-off-grid-legal/
Simple review of the laws of individual States, even now, States like New York are very restrictive in your ability to create an "off-grid" system.
When it comes to just about anything though, New York is the most restrictive State there is, so that comes as no surprise, I was stuck living their for ten years, so I know of what I speak, miserable place when it comes to taxes, restrictive laws, and winter weather.
All and all I think the EV tax credits sound good and give good incentives to us that can qualify. However, how many American's can truly qualify?
Just a thought --- How many cars and trucks were sold in the US in 2019?
Automakers sold more than 17 million vehicles in the U.S. for a fifth consecutive year.
How many used cars were sold in the US in 2019?
In 2018, 40.2 million used vehicles were sold in the U.S.; in 2019, Edmunds analysts predict used vehicle sales could approach 41 million.
These numbers suggest many buy used cars, suggesting many perhaps can't afford to buy a new vehicle. So, these tax incentives are more or less for the middle class, and wealthy. The larger car and truck market is used vehicles.
"Do EV tax credits count for used electric cars?
Like leasing an EV, buying a used electric car also does not allow you to claim the traditional EV tax credit in any way. However, a new bill titled the Affordable EVs for Working Families Act may change that. The legislation would provide up to $2,500 back for an individual filing their taxes and claiming a used EV purchase. For individuals, the $2,500 starts to phase out on income of $75,000 per year; those filing jointly would see the $2,500 sunset when reporting $150,000-plus worth of income. According to the bill, a used EV would need to be at least two years old and cost under $25,000 to qualify for the $2,500 back. If passed, it could provide another option for those priced out of a new EV."
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ev-t … ucks-suvs/
Had those solar and EV tax credits been "refundable" it would have meant something to me. As it is they mean nothing as I don't pay enough taxes to participate. I can subsidize the rich with their rebates, but I cannot participate in them.
That's not exactly how it works for either Solar or EV.
But I cannot say for sure what the final decisions were, maybe in a few days.
For EVs the cap was $250k for an individual and a $55k vehicle. The $7,500 rebate was guaranteed whether or not you were owed taxes back. In essence the government pays you $7,500 to buy the EV.
But there was also a version where the company selling the car takes off $7,500 from the price and receives that payback from the government.
The Solar system I am less certain about how that works or if the company installing it deducts it off the price at the outset, it used to be that way, the deduction was factored into your costs.Having bought a plug in hybrid early this year (now totalled from being rear-ended
) I can tell you that the $7500 it was eligible for was NOT refundable. I even looked into leasing it for a year because the 7500 goes to the owner - the lease holder - and they could then refund it to me via a lower lease price but Toyota refused. That means that if you don't have a tax bill of at least $7500 the year purchased you will not get the refund. It can only be used to offset that year's taxes. You may get a portion of it - up to whatever your tax bill is that year - but that's all.
I've also had several solar cell salespeople come out - without exception they turn around when told I don't pay enough taxes to benefit from the (also non-refundable) tax credit for their product. I'm obviously not the first person to run up against this and they understand the problem.
What the new programs are I have no idea, but it they actually pay the seller to lower the price (say of a car) it would be a great boon. I'm going to try and replace the PHEV that was totaled and could benefit from that.For home solar the current federal plan is a tax credit and at this time is 26% for 2020 - 2022 then lowers to 22% for 2023.of the overall cost. Not sure if the new infrastructure bill renews that or overwrites it. Like you that does not help me with what I pay in taxes.
Here is a link to good explainer if interested
https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/homeo … tovoltaicsThat's a great link, I didn't know there had been an extension.
What you are talking about is the previous EV and Solar rebates.
There will be changes to what is rebated and how in the new Infrastructure Bill, what exactly was the end result I don't know yet, but there were various changes written and considered.
Like you, I hope the ease with which a person can attain those 'rebates' are actually more incentivizing and useful.Well, I can hope, because I do intend to purchase a new PHEV as soon as I can get the insurance money and find a car. Say a few months.
Just glad the last five years of infrastructure week is finally behind us.
China has mocked the infrastructure bill saying the USA can NEVER duplicate the bullet train and other systems of China. They are already 2 decades behind China.
That is why i wrote that the solar system should hold the power output capacity of at least 3 times the household consumption. With 1000 kWh/a/kWp just take your last electricity bill and multiply by 3 (5.000 kWh/year --> 15 kWp installation)
In summer time you get some 50 kWh/day from the roof, in spring/fall some 30 kWh/day and in winter it is 10 kWh/day (except you have snow, then it is nil).
A battery system like the Tesla Power Wall has 13,5 kWh capacity. This is ok, but the household power consumption is recharged within 2-3 hours during the day. What do you do with the excess daylight time?
Of course all i wrote is under the assumption, that heating is done by oil or natural gas, not electric.
Wholesale price of panels is roughly 150 USD/panel or 450..500 USD /kWp.
Converters range from 100.. 150 USD/kWp power output. You need roof attachment construction and a decent electrical wiring and startup (don´t recommend DIY) and you are set to go.Living in Florida there is no snow to worry about and the drop in KWh production from the solar panels will not be nearly so substantial during the seasonal changes.
Tesla's software directs incoming KWs produced from the Solar panels to supply the house needs first (this would include a plugged in EV), then the maximum amount that can be directed to the battery for storage, any in excess to that is directed back into the grid (for some small reimbursement benefit).
Wilderness misunderstands the EV being used at night, a Tesla EV potentially can be used to power a home, but for how I would like to set up the house, this would be more of a back-up source used as minimally as possible... basically not to be drawn from until the Power Wall has been expended.
The Power Wall(s) should supply sufficient power for the night's needs if the system is large enough.
We don't use oil, we do use gas (Hot water heater and Dryer) which is of benefit when considering electricity needs/loads.
Electric Dryers especially consume large amounts of electricity, the largest inconsistent draw we would have would be the HVAC unit, which could be set to run minimally during the nights.I totally agree that it depends on the circumstances. Of course Florida is a different animal than my dwelling, our latitude being somewhere up at Hudson Bay, Canada. In areas with more even distribution of daylight a battery is much more useful.
However a solar system has only few differences in year to year electricity output, no matter in Florida, on the equator or in Norway, only the seasonal sinus curve has more amplitude, the further away from the equator. In my place we have daylight until 10pm in June, but only 6 hours in December and i still get 950 kWh/kWp/a.
You address rightly that the household consumer side has to be payed attention to also. How energy efficient is the stuff we use? Do we need a bulky refridgerator, a huge electric dryer, a low efficiency AC? With our children long out of the house, we had cut our annual electricity bill to 2.500 kWh (without Solar).
I remember in the early 2000, when our son had invited his friends for computer gaming parties. A dozen computers with graphic boards that would qualify for electric heating and i had to direct the kids to which power outlet to use, otherwise it would blow some fuses.
Currently our total energy bill (gas and electricity) is less than 1.500 Euro per year, was 2.000 Euro without solar. So the 500 Euro difference is what has to pay for the installation of the solar panels. A difficult task, if it would not be my own home, i would not invest a dime. But it always depends on the circumstances.You're absolutely right that how consume plays an enormous part in our energy needs. While we have a huge (but very efficient) refrigerator, we've made big strides over the years in cutting our usage in other ways. A large clothes dryer...coupled with a very efficient washer that spins the clothing so fast there is little water for the dryer to remove. All LED lighting. More insulation in the attic and crawl space. New, more efficient, windows. High efficiency hot water heater and AC unit. 20 years of effort, and our energy bill is just about what it was when we moved in, 20 years ago in spite of rising costs.
But it's always interesting to compare with other locations. Our electric usage (we're total electric) ranges from 40 to 80 kWh per day - far more than yours. But our cost is in line with your energy costs ($172 per month average) because of very low electric rates - we pay $.07 and $.09 per kWh winter time (off and on peak) and $.07 and $.12 per kWh summer time (off and on peak).
Because of the low cost for power, though, it just isn't economic to install solar cells. I've had 3 companies out, all doing a study for my area and my use. Filling the house roof, the shop roof and building an additional shelter for the RV and filling that roof, cannot provide for my needs. In addition, my cost for power (and payback of the system) will go up even after a 30% rebate on all purchase and installation costs (including the new RV shelter). And that's without a power wall - the assumption is that I sell unneeded power back to the grid, but purchase it back at night. Effectively I would use the grid as a power wall rather than install batteries. It also does not take into account repair/replacement of solar cells, electronics, etc....we pay $.07 and $.09 per kWh winter time (off and on peak) and $.07 and $.12 per kWh summer time (off and on peak)....
Very interesting. You have comparable energy cost to our house. But the energy saving efford is probaly different to achieve this.
Just to give an idea why Europe is pressing so much with renewables: We pay roughly 6 ct. per kWh for gas and 30 ct. per kWh electricity and rising. wilderness, if we would move your house to Germany, your monthly energy bill would almost quadruple.
3 years ago we got a new roof and 2nd floor wall insulation of 32 cm (more than 1 ft) and new windows. That cut heating (gas) cost in half and in summer no AC needed even at 30°C plus outside (86°F).
Question: If you run your heating all electric, do you have plumbing (central water heating) or electric radiators? Over here in G. for going all electric, air to water heat pumps are promoted. Efficiency to be some 200%, so you need only half the kWh for the same heating result.We have a forced air heat pump; the house is heated by forcing warmed air throughout the home. The heat pump is an air to air transfer - while I would have loved to install air to water it just wasn't possible for me to do that. The cost was far too much.
Interestingly, my home was built (in 1974) with radiant heat in the ceiling. Heating wires are buried in my ceiling, with another layer of drywall about 6" above the ceiling. Very expensive to use, but nice, even heat. My house even has an "energy star" plaque on the front of it, reflecting the drive in the 70's to go electric. That system is still there (with a thermostat in every room) but when I installed the heat pump I disconnected all but one room - I needed the breaker space in the panel for the new heat pump as well as some other things I installed, but the ability to use it in case of heat pump failure is a nice emergency feature.
I would love your KWhr rates. Here in San Diego with SGG&E they have different plans. A standard plan where the cap of the baseline is 130% before rates rise. The next level is up to 400% of baseline and above that 400% is the highest rate.That first level is $0.34 KWhr, the next level is $0.43 and the the last level remains the same as that second one. Seeing yours I say Yikes!
But, there are several Time of Use plans too with the greatest emphasis on usage between 4 - 9pm. Of course one needs a smart meter to participate. There are three levels with different rates; On peak, off peak, and super off peak, each with their rate. There also are tiers and weekends fall into the mix. If curious below is the link to their plans.
https://www.sdge.com/residential/pricin … henmatters
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