Universal Basic Income- A Bad idea

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   lovetherainposted 2 years ago

   I used to think this would really help people, but now I think it is a horrible idea. Especially for the economy and society in general.
   
   Covid has been a real eye opener. Paying people not to work, well, they then don't work, and they get lazy and don't go back to work.
   
   What are your thoughts on this?

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      wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".  Karl Marx.
      
      Marxism is a fine idea...for those not wanting to provide for themselves.  As you say, most people do not enjoy having to work to support their needs, and will not do so if they don't have to.

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         lovetherainposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         I have been on disability for years. It was great it was there when I needed it. I have been doing very well for five months now. I am actively seeking employment,as well as working towards creating self-employment income to support myself.
         
         Taking those first steps, applying for jobs, going to my first interview in years, totally was embarrassing and difficult. but I did it, and I'm still doing it. I would rather work at Mcdonalds, where my interview was, than be a burden on tax payers for a moment longer than I have to.
         
         what I really want to do is work for myself. I will make that a reality, but do what I have to in order to get here.

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            The truth is, if you follow your own dreams, true passions and interests, you will end up expanding your source(s) of income. People will pay for the things/services you have to give them. Find out what that is! There are so MANY PEOPLE! There's only one government and it is very limited in scope and interest in YOU.
            and even less money for YOU.
            
            (... which is actually the people's money. So the government, theoretically HAS NO MONEY for individuals.

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               lovetherainposted 2 years agoin reply to this

               Do what you love and the money will follow.

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  ... well, it needs to be done with intelligence and guidance. You can't just sit around painting beautiful paintings and playing guitar to your ingenious lyrics without a way to market your talents.
                  For this reason, networking is of vital imortance and a vital skill.
                  
                  Even Rembrandt's success and popularity subsided after his wife died.
                  She was his PR and marketing influence.

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                     lovetherainposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     I'm not so sure about that.

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                     Castlepalomaposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     Speak for yourself, I mostlly made my income from building sandcastles and snow playground for 45 years.
                     
                     One cannot master life unless you love what you do.
                     
                     Go for it lovetherain!! Money will come.

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            wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            You sound like an excellent example of why a "safety net" is so important and I would never advocate doing away with it.
            
            But the safety net we have constructed is not designed to help people learn to support themselves; it is designed and used to chain people to government charity forever.  It is far too close to Marxism (or modern day Socialism if you prefer) than I can support.  Too close to useless for those that truly need it and far too easy for those that don't need to life off of.

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            MizBejabbersposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Best wishes in your endeavor. I hope you do well.

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      CHRIS57posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Can be discussed very controversally.
      
      Just a thought: What about negative income tax? If you have zero income, then you get 1000 potatoes, from there on you get taxed 50% of your potatoe income. So if you earn 2000, then you pay 1000 as tax but get the 1000 minimum income, so again you are at 2000 (= 0% tax).
      Go to 3000 and pay 1500 tax, get 1000 refunded = 2500 = (16,6% tax)
      Go to 5000, pay 2500 tax, ... = 3500 = (30% tax)..
      and so on...
      
      Those with 10000 plus per month then have to 40%.
      
      This system would put away with any kind of welfare payments or other entitlements.
      
      Just a thought... of course you can play with numbers and percentages.

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      MizBejabbersposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      I totally agree that it was a real eye opener. I've always enjoyed working, so I didn't understand why so many working people sat on their haunches while they drew their stimulus checks. It has been a real inconvenience for my husband and me to not to be able to find crews to work on a house that we were remodeling to put on the market. We are not in good shape, and it is taking us years instead of weeks or months to do the work ourselves. Now that the same people whom I mentioned have gone back to work, their fees to do the work have quintupled (literally) and we can't afford to hire them. I wonder how long that will last.

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         Ken Burgessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         Exactly... free money means many people won't work for a variety of reasons.
         
         We have way to many Americans that qualify (game the system) for free "Safety Net Support" as it is.  And they know what they need to do (or not do) to continue to stay on it.
         
         Those willing to work, will drive their rates up so long as people are willing to pay for them, and this is across the board no matter what field we are talking about, but especially those that require skill/talent/licenses.
         
         When they added 30% of all dollars into existence in 2020 they essentially devalued the dollar.  I make 60% more than I did 5 years ago, and I would not consider doing this job or any other for much less than I make now... because money is just not worth what it was five years ago.
         
         I consider my job more of a safety net than a good source of income for the future.  I wouldn't recommend working for a company or getting a job to my own kids... learn a trade, or/and learn how to make money and start a business, go to work for yourself.

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      Ken Burgessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      Well lets look at the economic reality, as we have seen post covid.
      About 30% of all dollars in existence were created in 2020.
      This money was given to Financial Institutions and to all Americans in stimulus checks as well as increased unemployment.
      
      It is hard to extrapolate how this compares to UBI for all, but what you would end up with is essentially a worsening of whatever "evils" you believe exist in capitalism/society today.
      
      Free money allows those who want to abuse alcohol and drugs to do so more easily, it allows those who want to retreat from society into video games (or ?) more easily as well.
      
      It increases the costs of goods because what goods are available people  will be able to pay more for, we have seen how this works with the increase in prices today for popular items, flushing more money into the system raised prices for everything from Houses to Hand-soap.
      
      In addition to the abuses we see right now with those on "Food Stamps" would become more prolific.  Ever see someone in a grocery store use their Stamps/Card to pay for the most expensive Steaks they could find in the store?
      
      UBI would quickly become worthless, as everyone gets it whether they work or not, prices would just adjust accordingly and those who have money or have the ability to make money with money would just become richer... while everyone else just struggles that much more to pay the bills... especially those who aren't living off the system getting housing & food free already.
      
      Where does this money come from anyways?  Taxes?  Debt? We already have a broken system on life support, its not a matter of whether we are going to suffer a calamity of economic failure, its just a matter of when... 2024? 2026? 2028? 
      
      They've been pushing the "reset" back ever since 2008... sooner or later the crash is coming, and the longer its postponed the worse it will be for the world.

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         lovetherainposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         I think the crash is already starting. Food prices are alarming. I saw a $92 piece of beef at fred meyer the other day. everything else, even chicken, was way above what it normally is. scary.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

   This is why we must educate children and guide them to acquire the skills they will need in order to survive. Ideally, we guide them toward what they have an aptitude and an interest in doing to fit in with society. To be helpful to others, to be employable for the ultimate goal of self-survival ... the highest good being that which is for the sake of itself and something else:
   
   To work for one's own benefit and for the benefit of others.
   
   
   Working only for the many is a very very very bad idea and that is still an understatement, no mater how many verys you stick in front of the word BAD.
   
   Very!

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      CHRIS57posted 2 years agoin reply to this

      The US economy is very much service oriented. A lot of jobs are not used to create value but "only" to distribute value.
      
      Some time ago i noticed a long stretched road construction somewhere in the Midwest. In the middle of this construction a lady was standing and holding up a sign: "SLOW". I don´t know if she got payed or not. But if she got payed then you might as well give her some "unconditional basic income" and put the sign "SLOW on a ridged post.
      
      There are many more of these examples.
      
      What this "basic income" would do in economy? It will put away with discussions on miminum wage. Minimum wage would certainly have to be higher than "basic income". This in return will either incentivise employers to streamline their operations, employ automation and robots, thus making economy more competitive - or, or to simply drop out of business.
      
      Actually "universal basic income" introduction would lift the Darwinian stuggle for survival from the low income cohort to the small and medium business owner cohort. I understand - many people don´t want this to happen.
      
      I also understand many low income people may just not want to work any more. But it does not help economy as a whole if low payed jobs are kept with the consequence of low productivity.
      Believe me: "unconditional basic income" does not hinder productivity and prosperity but instead pushes competitivity, something i think is very necessary for the USA.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         We need to re-set the world.
         Common sense and human nature must be understood, recognized and acknowledged.
         Whatever.
         Many of us are pretty blue in our faces by now.
         Repetition is tiring ... when no one listens
         At all.
         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4oj_AJvYKY
         
         This Is Reality:
         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODLKcFQNI-0

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

   Maybe there are benefits, but living according to some ideal is impossible.
   I mean, where would the money come from to insure universal income ...
   taxation? So, how much money would you actually be entitled to keep of the money you receive?
   I mean, the reason we work for ourselves is that not even God, who loves us dearly, throws down money form heaven!
   
   https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020 … me-ubi-map

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      MizBejabbersposted 2 years agoin reply to this

      I agree. If nobody works, where is the money for anything and everything going to come from? We don't receive manna from heaven.

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         wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

         Worse, where are the things we want and need going to come from?  With no farmers we starve.  Without cars, refrigerators and a whole host of other things our standard of living will fall back to what it was 100 years ago (or more).
         
         We either have to produce or we won't have those things for we cannot simply import everything we need while handing out money printed out of nothing.

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            MizBejabbersposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            That, too. Gosh, Wilderness, is the world coming to an end? Once again we see eye-to-eye.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 2 years ago

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODLKcFQNI-0

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   Nathanvilleposted 2 years ago

   I’ve argued this point (quite bitterly) with my American friend from New York many times; his belief is that ‘Universal Basic Income’ is the future because all our jobs will be done by ‘Robots’ (4th Industrial Revolution); but that’s a different topic that should be for another debate!
   
   Anyway, in my opinion ‘Universal Basic Income’ is a bad idea:-
   
   I believe there will always be work to be had, or created, and people who are in good health and of working age should be encouraged to work, and have the incentive to work.
   
   However I do also believe that a properly funded welfare system should be in place as a safety net to minimise the risk of anyone living in abject poverty.
   
   Exactly what form, and how generous that welfare system should be is a matter of ‘politics’.  As a European and a Socialist I know that my idea of what the Welfare System should be is far more generous than wilderness’s (having debated this top with him in previous forums); but that doesn’t mean that either is more or less right than the other in our views, it’s just differing political views – which is a healthy thing in any society.

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