Welcome In, Ukranians!

1. 78

   Kathryn L Hillposted 14 months ago

   The people of Ukraine are fighting to the finish for their freedom, their individual liberty, (to the extent it was actually given to them) and their sovereignty. About 3 million citizens of Ukraine have become refugees in Poland and elsewhere.
   
   Will these displaced people be able to go back home after Putin takes their country? (If he does ... who knows? Maybe China will step in to assist him.)
   
   Would they want to return to their homeland, if Putin takes over? (... and he lets them.)
   
   In the event that Putin looses, I've heard that the younger generations would like to go back and rebuild, while the older ones would like to remain in Poland or another country to finish out their lives.
   
   Would some like to enter the USA?
   
   https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukrainian- … -explains/
   
   
   
   ____________________________________________
   
   If they become citizens, would they vote appropriately?
   
   No?
   
   Would the democrat leaders, therefore, not actually be in favor of taking in these freedom loving Ukrainians?
   
   Wondering

   replyreport
   1. 79

      Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

      It is the Republicans that generally have a burr in their saddle regarding immigration, period. The Democrats are generally not an impediment in this matter.
      
      What does it mean to "vote appropriately"?
      
      The Ukranians should not be treated any differently than any other refugee group coming from a similar circumstance, Nigerians, Nicaraguans, Norwegians, etc.

      replyreport
      1. 78

         Kathryn L Hillposted 14 months agoin reply to this

         Why is the US letting in so many at the border?
         
         "Mr Biden signed an order on his first day in office to pause all wall construction and to end the national emergency declaration on the southern border.
         
         He later ordered that military funds Mr Trump had tapped for the project be diverted ...
         
         Some wall construction sites remain abruptly abandoned, with building materials strewn about, as construction had continued right up until the moment of Mr Biden's order to halt."
         
         https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56255613

         replyreport
         1. 79

            Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

            The idea of a physical wall from the Rio Grande to Baja California is ludicrous in itself. It is more efficient to make survival difficult by not allowing access to jobs and benefits for those crossing illegally, and punishing the fat cats that hire them. The wall of Jericho have already fallen down prior to its even being built.

            replyreport
         2. 87

            Valeantposted 14 months agoin reply to this

            Maybe because the wall is an idiotic vanity project and not something that has really helped much.
            
            https://news.yahoo.com/official-trump-i … 28595.html
            
            https://www.thirdway.org/memo/trumps-gr … of-failure

            replyreport
      2. 80

         tsmogposted 14 months agoin reply to this

         I was wondering the same thing regard voting appropriately. Besides it takes a minimum of 3 - 5 years depending on which naturalization process they go through to become a citizen with the right to vote.They should be able to figure out what appropriate is by the time they raise their right hand.

         replyreport
         1. 79

            Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

            I would think so, regardless, I am waiting for a straight answer to that question from "your highness".

            replyreport
            1. 78

               Kathryn L Hillposted 14 months agoin reply to this

               Ukrainians who are welcomed in and allowed to vote, (after gaining citizenship, one would presume,) would recognize any hint of what they abhor in government
               ... the very thing our deep state left and right wants to implement:
               a social democracy where there is equity, equality and acceptance of minorities over majorities to the extent that there is minority rule.
               What is the problem with that, one might wonder?
               Minority rule is not democratic, that's all.
               What's wrong with equality of outcome and equity of abilities outside of merit?
               It removes equality of opportunity for all and the best rising to the top. Natural talent, interest and motivation is why we have freedom. We don't have freedom to be told what job / work schedule we are to have and how to live our lives for the sake of "equality " and oh yeah, greenness.

               replyreport
               1. 79

                  Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

                  Alright,
                  
                  All that I picked up is that the government stands 180 degrees opposed to the Russian model.
                  
                  Majority rule means that the will of most of the electorate is the one that prevails. Democracy should be always seeking equity and equality as part of the very definition of the term.
                  
                  No, minority rule is not democratic, so just like Zelenskyy is sticking it to the fat cats oligarchs, as part of the Ukraine Parliament, for taking advantage of and abusing privileges, we in America need to be certain that democratic principles and process here are not to compromised by ANYONE. Politics is one thing, but you cannot break the rules we all are supposed to play by....

                  replyreport
      3. 95

         Readmikenowposted 14 months agoin reply to this

         "It is the Republicans that generally have a burr in their saddle regarding immigration"
         
         Here you are mistaken. It is "illegal" immigration Republicans are against.  We actually have laws regarding how to immigrate into the United States.  Republicans believe these laws should be followed.
         
         I don't understand the obsession of the left with "illegal immigration."  In many ways, they treat illegal immigrants the same as or better than American citizens.

         replyreport
         1. 79

            Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

            Ok, Mike, I appreciate your clarification regarding the GOP position on immigration.
            
            Maybe, I can ask you what KH meant by "Ukrainians voting appropriately"?

            replyreport
            1. 95

               Readmikenowposted 14 months agoin reply to this

               "What KH meant by "Ukrainians voting appropriately"?
               
               I think there is an assumption in the US that since Ukraine is a very conservative country, they will vote as conservatives.  Anybody who knows Ukrainian politics knows this isn't necessarily true.
               
               Ukraine does have its fair share of liberal types.  They also have some ultra-right groups.  I believe it is far more conservative than the United States.

               replyreport
               1. 79

                  Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

                  Perhaps, but conservatism is relative and not necessarily seen the same way across different societies. Does what it is that constitute "conservative" in European politics equivalent to what that means in United States?
                  
                  Europe, as a whole, is generally more socialist, do you believe that Ukraine is the exception to this?  The link below may add to this discussion.
                  
                  https://worldpopulationreview.com/count … -countries

                  replyreport
                  1. 95

                     Readmikenowposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                     "Perhaps, but conservatism is relative and not necessarily seen the same way across different societies."
                     
                     You are absolutely correct.
                     
                     There is a big difference between Eastern Europe and Western Europe.  They are similar but very different.  Religion is still very prominent in Eastern Europe and it's not the same in Western Europe.
                     
                     Something like BLM protests would not have occurred in Ukraine.  The police and the local population would have worked together to arrest them.  Those types of protests with their destruction would not have happened.  They occur in Western Europe all the time.   
                     
                     Ukraine wants to be more connected to Western Europe.  I believe this has more to do with the history between Ukraine and Russia than anything.  People have gotten a taste of capitalism and they like it.  Their form of government is similar to the United States.

                     replyreport
                     1. 79

                        Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

                        The link I provided gave a definition of the sort of government, economic and political systems that the Ukraine is most similar to and it is not related to America's idea of laissez-fair capitalism.
                        
                        And how does Ukraine handle dissent within a democracy providing freedom of speech and assembly? I am going to see how protests are handled within the Ukraine. I will let you know.
                        
                        From what I have read, there are still stark differences between Ukraine and the US, particularely in the economic sphere. Aspiring democracies are attracted to the Western European example, and turn their noses at autocratic rulers and governance. They do not want an imitation of Russia.
                        
                        Again, I will investigate further and let you know.....
                        
                        Excerpt from a Wikipedia article:
                        
                        Zelenskyy supports the free distribution of medical cannabis, free abortion in Ukraine, and the legalisation of prostitution and gambling.[204] He opposes the legalisation of firearms.[204]
                        
                        Conservative? Really....
                        
                        I will find more.

                        replyreport
                        1. 78

                           Kathryn L Hillposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                           Zelenskyy
                           
                           Supports:
                           1.) Free distribution of medical cannabis.
                           2.) Free abortion.
                           3.) Legalization of prostitution and gambling.
                           
                           Opposes:
                           1.) The legalization of firearms.
                           
                           My My! This is very revealing!
                           
                           I'm not even for those things!
                           
                           Is it true?

                           replyreport
                           1. 78

                              Kathryn L Hillposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                              No wonder ...

                              replyreport
                           2. 78

                              Kathryn L Hillposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                              So this leader of Ukraine advocates for the people's hard earned money to be redistributed for the sake of free pot, free sex, gambling and prostitution.
                              
                              The role of government is to provide freedom within appropriate boundaries.
                              
                              In this case, the appropriate boundaries would not be in place.
                              
                              I had assumed the Ukrainian people were conservative without researching them. Yes, they like freedom ... but maybe too much?

                              replyreport
                              1. 79

                                 Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

                                 And you know what else?
                                 
                                 He won in 2019 with 73% of the vote, not exactly an extremist "flash in the pan". That so much of their society would find Zelenskyy's platform attractive would remind me more of Amsterdam rather than Jerusalem.
                                 
                                 Freedom, like conservatism, is relative, using an American yardstick to measure either one is inaccurate from the start.
                                 
                                 Their "boundaries" are wider that what yours would be, you would say that their concept of freedom is too permissive and licentious?

                                 replyreport
                                 1. 95

                                    Readmikenowposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                                    Cred,
                                    
                                    You are right.  Zalensky was VERY popular before the war and is even more popular with Ukrainians right now. 
                                    
                                    You need to understand Zalensky's views don't translate into Ukranian law.  He still must deal with the Verkhovna Rada.  This is like the Senate and Congress.  It's different.  They are elected based on party and it's difficult to explain exactly how it works other than to say it's different.  There is no presidential veto in Ukraine.  The members of the Verkhovna Rada have even gotten into physical confrontations with one another over certain issues.  Most people find it quite funny. 
                                    
                                    The Verkhovna Rada is who passes the laws.  There is no presidential veto.
                                    
                                    The areas of the Ukraine are broken down into 24 "Oblasts," which would be like states, and these are broken down into "Rayons," which would be like counties. The heads of the Oblasts and Rayons are appointed by the Ukraine president. The local town "assemblies" are all based on local democratic voting.
                                    
                                    So, freedom in the Ukraine is guaranteed by its constitution.  Ethnic minorities are guaranteed equal access and treatment based on the Ukraine constitution.
                                    
                                    I could go on, but you can see how the Russian system of suppression is counter to the Ukraine system of granting freedom to its citizens.

                                    replyreport
                                    1. 79

                                       Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

                                       Mike, I have to give due deference to someone who comes from that part of the world, as you have told us that you have.
                                       
                                       Yet,
                                       
                                       I did read a little about this "Rada" in my research. And while the Rada, similar in many ways to the U.S. congress may pass the laws, how did Zalenskyy in an open election attract so many "conservative" people to his message and platform, that would hardly be considered conservative by American standards? It says a great deal about the nature of Ukrainian society, it has to.
                                       
                                       Zalenskyy and his views are extremely popular as the electorate would suggest. This Rada is going to stand firmly opposed to Zalenskyy under these circumstances?

                                       report
                                       1. 95

                                          Readmikenowposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                                          Cred,
                                          
                                          I'm not from that part of the world.  I have relatives in Ukraine, and I've visited there.  I regularly speak with people in the Ukraine.
                                          
                                          Ukrainian politics is different from that in the USA.
                                          
                                          A large portion of the population is 40 and under.  He appeals to this demographic.  His biggest selling point is that he's anti-Russian dominance. He has given some very strong speeches about Ukraine always being free of Russian dominance.  This has won the hearts of millions of Ukrainians.  Everyone can admit, he is a man of his word.
                                          
                                          Religion is MUCH more important in Ukraine than the United States.
                                          
                                          Russia has been the biggest political issue for years.  There is not the anger and bitterness between political parties like there is here.  After the biggest arguments people often go and have a vodka and "talk of life" as they say. 
                                          
                                          Prostitution is illegal but is not really pursued by the government. Marijuana is illegal except for medial use. 
                                          
                                          There is no 2nd amendment like in the US, but MANY people own guns, and the illegal use of guns is very low compared to the United States.
                                          
                                          Abortion is legal for the first 12 weeks.  After than there is a series of things that must be proven.  It's complicated.
                                          
                                          Health care basics is free, if you want expensive tests and a specialist it will cost you.  They are slowly transitioning out of the Soviet healthcare model they had for decades.

                                          report
                                          1. 79

                                             Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

                                             I hear you, but 75% of the vote has to cross over several demographic groups and the demand of the people seem to point toward a direction away from the status quo that you discuss here.
                                             
                                             As you say, there are differences between Ukrainian society and that of the United States.

                                             report
                           3. 78

                              Kathryn L Hillposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                              "Religion is MUCH more important in Ukraine than the United States."
                              
                              How much influence is religion if the people are on board with THESE things?

                              replyreport
                              1. 95

                                 Readmikenowposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                                 As I said before, the opinions of the president do not necessarily reflect the laws of the country. 
                                 
                                 Do you understand this concept?

                                 replyreport
                                 1. 78

                                    Kathryn L Hillposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                                    They voted for him. They support him. One would assume.

                                    replyreport
                                    1. 78

                                       Kathryn L Hillposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                                       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTiZzYANgYs
                                       
                                       This video explains the people were not happy with their president by 2021. Actually, you get the sense that Zelinskyy was popular for his personality and not the substance of his political beliefs. He wanted to serve the people, but had no real vision.
                                       Or perhaps a vague one.
                                       He tried to get Putin to lay off Ukraine and Crimea but did not have the strength to succeed. It is likely that Putin saw weakness in both Zelinskyy and Biden and just took advantage of it.
                                       
                                       Putin was like a kid in a candy store with no one to tell him not to help himself.
                                       Of course he would not agree.
                                       He would say he took advantage of a situation which would benefit Russia.
                                       Now here is the question:
                                       If the Soviet Union fell because it was too big, why are you now trying to bring it back to it's original size?

                                       report
                  2. 78

                     Kathryn L Hillposted 14 months agoin reply to this

                     Thank you for this link. It seems, in general, that capitalism is better than communism and social democracy is better than socialism. My issue with social democracy is that it might work in smaller countries, but not larger. Why? Because of government inability to properly redistribute the wealth. Since when can you trust others to handle YOUR money?

                     replyreport
         2. 87

            Valeantposted 14 months agoin reply to this

            And yet, you have people on this site claiming those who have made asylum claims and been allowed to wait in the United States while those claims are being made in accordance with our laws are 'illegals.'
            
            Seems that some Republicans are just publicly xenophobic.
            
            And it's not illegal immigration the left funds, but those seeking legal help after being granted asylum.

            replyreport
   2. 76

      Castlepalomaposted 14 months agoin reply to this

      Not a fan of boarders, some day we won't need them. Because people are 99% bio logically the same. With over all of 5% disagreements. If Ukraine or Iraq was my country, I would want another country to take me in from the worst horror hell on earth in a war murdering country.
      
      I fight evil overlords by loving them to death and  creating my own world where freedom is. People who want owners can have them.

      replyreport
      1. 95

         Readmikenowposted 14 months agoin reply to this

         "I fight evil overlords by loving them to death and creating my own world where freedom is. People who want owners can have them."
         
         That is a great idea.  I think Putin has shown the world that someone like him would come along and try to own you or destroy you.

         replyreport
         1. 76

            Castlepalomaposted 14 months agoin reply to this

            I don't play in the overlords game of chess on either side or the blame game.
            
            Tit for tat is the best game out of 600 games of life that can be played. Game over for me when murdering starts, no matter where. Especially When I traveled into 6 different NATO war zone countries, lucky  having an amazing radar for danger.  Nothing worst than being  in the killing  game and being killed, end of all games.

            replyreport
2. 78

   Kathryn L Hillposted 14 months ago

   "Migrants cross the border in one of two ways. Those who believe they "have suffered persecution or fear that they will suffer persecution" in their home country are eligible to apply for asylum when they present themselves at a port of entry for admission into the US.
   
   Others may evade border officials by hiding in cars or travelling undetected across unprotected - and often treacherous - parts of the US-Mexico border.
   
   According to the Pew Research Center, at least 40% of unauthorised migrants in the country entered legally on short-term visas and overstayed."
   
   https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56255613

   replyreport
3. 78

   Kathryn L Hillposted 14 months ago

   Apparently, Biden makes it easy for some and not for others.
   
   (And I think you do know what I am getting at as far as, "voting appropriately.")

   replyreport
   1. 79

      Credence2posted 14 months agoin reply to this

      "And I think you do know what I am getting at as far as, "voting appropriately.")"
      
      No, I don't, how about you providing a straight answer this time?

      replyreport
   2. 76

      Castlepalomaposted 14 months agoin reply to this

      I have a Rich friend and fellow artist who wants me to build tiny house community for Ukrainian artist to bring them here. Don't know, if Trudeau really cares.

      replyreport