Free speech and offensive language. And, views differ. Take a peek.

1. 87

   tsmogposted 5 weeks ago

   What is offensive language to you? Is it words or can it be ideas too?
   
   What is offensive language in a public setting from a small gathering, on the streets, at the fair, in a classroom, or on the internet - publishing an article, social media, a podcast, or a YouTube?
   
   {For example I don't you cuss words in the family setting or public in general. But, amongst old guy shade tree mechanics or professional technicians using cuss words is an art form with conversations about this and that including repairing a vehicle and so forth.}
   
   
   
   Americans’ views of offensive speech aren’t necessarily clear-cut By Pew Research (Aug 9, 2024) {Short article with 3 graphics, yet hits the mark on the topic.
   https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads … clear-cut/
   
   So, what is the cause? How one is socialized in the home setting or social circles? Or, . . .
   
   Is it a matter of self identity, self esteem, or being insecure in one's self? Why?
   [Note: The perspective is the one saying such and such as well as the listener to be considered]
   
   Is it done purposefully to cause harm, seek a reaction, to deflect, or . . .
   
   Is it a matter of not knowing?
   
   
   
   Thoughts, criticisms, accolades, or commentary?
   
   [Edit: Just in case next is a link to the methodology. An excerpt is . . .
   
   "Data in this report is drawn from ATP Wave 146, conducted from April 8 to April 14, 2024. It includes oversamples of non-Hispanic Asian adults, non-Hispanic Black adults, Hispanic adults, and adults ages 18 to 29 in order to provide more precise estimates of the opinions and experiences of these smaller demographic subgroups. It also included an oversample of validated 2016 and 2020 “vote switchers,” who either voted for Donald Trump in 2020 but not in 2016, or who voted for Joe Biden in 2020 but not for Hillary Clinton in 2016. These oversampled groups are weighted back to reflect their correct proportions in the population.
   
   A total of 8,709 panelists responded out of 9,527 who were sampled, for a response rate of 91%. The cumulative response rate accounting for nonresponse to the recruitment surveys and attrition is 3%. The break-off rate among panelists who logged on to the survey and completed at least one item is less than 1%. The margin of sampling error for the full sample of 8,709 respondents is plus or minus 1.5 percentage points."
   
   Methodology
   https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/20 … thodology/

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      GA Andersonposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

      I bet a generational graph would tell a story. As I considered the study's results I kept running into the question of generational perception. A Boomer's responses seem certain to differ from a Gen Z or Alpha's.
      
      Philosophers have debated your questions for centuries. Luckily, I have the answers. ;-o
      
      The answer to all your questions is yes, and the things asked in those questions answer the "Why,"
      
      As to the results, I fall into 'too easily offended' as a major problem, and 'being offensive' as a minor problem group. When considering why, idioms from my generation—which I don't think are considered truisms anymore, seemed so logical.
      
      I would have said every kid must have heard '. . . sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me,' and every adult that 'Actions speak louder than words, because I see both as truisms, but I don't think the 'Zs' or 'Alphas' do.
      
      And then I'm stuck on the 'scroll finger' rationale: No one is forced to read and endure offensive stuff, everyone has a scroll finger to just zip past it.
      
      The bottom line, as to which is a major problem, is which action is most easily fixed. My scroll-finger solution seems a lot easier than changing the reality of weak human constitutions (as in individuality). And the dangers of the 'solutions' proposed to protect those weak minds are a lot worse than being insulted.
      
      As you will most likely see, those are the thoughts of a dinosaur—a Baby Boomer. I bet this comment is full of micro-triggers and oafish slanders that I didn't consider. (*cut me some slack, the devil on my shoulder made me toss in that last bit)
      
      [EDIT ADDED]
      
      I see from a following response, that my direction was framed in the 'online' aspect. But, in physical interactions, I think the scroll-finger analogy still works. Just don't go there. Don't go where you know you will be offended. No one is forced to enter an argumentive situation, like the scroll-finger zipping past a post, your feet can zip you away from an offensive situation. (yes, I know there are times that isn't an option, but those times would be the exception rather than the rule)
      
      GA

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      1. 87

         tsmogposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

         Firstly, with jest, I am offended by your response ;-)
         
         Using Trump's newest craze I understand your 'concept' of reasoning. I do have some wandering spawned by your response. Thanks!
         
         First, generational, I can see what you have observed, however is it really more of a matter where one is in their life journey age wise. I know for myself I am much less offended today than in my early twenties. Pondering a bit how easily offended is a two or three year old?
         
         In other words, does our armor become shall we say more reliable or sophisticated. Is it a matter of trial and error to better our armor using new materials and crafting techniques to create that armor?
         
         Of course, I 'feel' one must take into account the purposeful intention to better that armor. Some I would suspect don't want the armor and relish in being offended while I go off on the philosophical/psychological tangent of sadist/masochist type stuff regarding 'pain'. 
         
         BTW . . . regarding the ageism proposal my birthday turning 70 is a week from now on Friday the 20th. Whoo-hoo!! I am entering a new phase of life being recognized as not only a retiree, old guy, and crotchety gray haired neighbor, but now I am blessed with being a sage full of wisdom.
         
         Sure, okay, whatever!!  ;-)

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            tsmogposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

            Responding to your 'Edit', GA. Yes, in full agreement. For example, if I am in a circle discussing this and that if I hear Trump I excuse myself from the circle. Also, if there is something that I find offensive in a discussion one-on-one or a circle of people I usually ask questions rather than make a retort.

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               Ken Burgessposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

               I am right there with GA (I know... you're shocked)... sticks and stones.
               
               But I also recognize that we need to develop a decorum, an accepted norm of civility and decency that is somehow maintained, like it is in these forums.
               
               Should a person be allowed to stir hatred and unrest online?
               
               No.
               
               Should a person be able to speak what they believe the truth to be, whether it relates to a vaccination or a laptop or an election result?
               
               Yes.  That is Free Speech.
               
               To be able to voice one's opinion openly, to be able to present evidence or theory or question without concern for being harshly punished.
               
               Being banned from posting on a site is not what I consider a harsh punishment (some would argue with that, I know)... being arrested, jailed, losing your job/livelihood, over it is.

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               1. 87

                  tsmogposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

                  I can relate while respecting what you offered. I can relate since being from the automotive world especially being within the performance end of it. I was involved with the National Hot Rod Association (NHRA) drag racing. I worked for a manufacturer as a machinist and also represented them at racing events with a booth and so forth.
                  
                  Long story to get to I can remember the debates between avid fans of Chevy, Ford, and Chrysler which is best in this and that. Not only that, but what type of racing was best. For instance drag racing (NHRA) vs. NASCAR or what we called them roundy round drivers.
                  
                  I'm sure you may have heard of Fix Or Replace Daily for Ford. As suspected I am an avid Chevy fan and NHRA drag racing fan.

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         2. 72

            Ken Burgessposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

            Sage - a bushy North American plant with silvery-gray leaves.
            
            Wisdom - the interpretation and understanding of knowledge that leads to greater insight.
            
            Crotchety - you complain and argue and are more or less miserable to be around.
            
            Instead of tsmog... we could go with Smaug instead.
            
            That has a nice feel to it... I would say Smaug is Crotchety and has Wisdom... that plant thing, eh...

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               tsmogposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

               Thanks!
               
               Sage from Merriam-Webster dictionary
               
               "one (such as a profound philosopher) distinguished for wisdom. 2. : a mature or venerable person of sound judgment. sage.
               
               Significant birthdays are:
               
               13 becoming a teenager nearing being a 'grownup'
               
               16 bringing liberation since we can now drive the family car and go on adventures when we told mom & pop we are going to the library
               
               21 Whoo-hoo coming out of the closet and can now legally drink
               
               Then it is 30, 40, 50 & 60 Sixty is inching closer to retirement or at least gaining social security and medicare
               
               70 is a milestone of its own as well as becoming a sage. Sages gain magical, mystical, and mysterious power to be able to see into the future. They share wisdom through parables, riddles, and quips. The youth should have an acute ear with awareness! You never know from where this and that will come from and where it leads. Be cautious if there is a gathering of them.
               
               That is why I never really bitched about Trump's or Biden's age other than ability physically to serve and mental acuity. The wisdom is there, yet sometimes it is unable to arrive, e.g. Reagan and his dementia.

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                  Ken Burgessposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

                  Ohhh, that type of sage... so not a crochety old plant then.
                  
                  

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                  1. 87

                     tsmogposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

                     hmmm . . . well I am growing, but I don't know if will bloom any longer. We'll see
                     
                     BTW . . . once upon a time in a portion of my life the person I dated was big on using sage to cleanse the evil spirits from the home. Also, I had a California native plant garden for butterflies and hummingbirds and I grew three different sages for that.

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      2. 91

         Nathanvilleposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

         Interesting point:  In the UK poll I posted above, the Boomer’s resonate is different to the Gen Z e.g. in the UK the Boomers generation are far more in favour of making people safe from abuse and threats, while the Z generation is more in favour of “people being able to speak their minds freely” than the Boomer generation – see screen dump below:-
         
         

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            GA Andersonposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

            Interesting numbers. Maybe it's a cultural difference, or maybe my assumption is wrong. It is simply a perception formed from social media interactions.
            
            GA

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               Nathanvilleposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

               I suspect it's more of a cultural difference.

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      abwilliamsposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

      Wow Tim, you put so much work and thought into your topics. Impressive!
      
      I am offended by the overuse of the F-word, not just because it's an ugly word (IMHO) but because the writer(s) can't be bothered to expand their vocabulary, use their imagination, be more creative with their dialogue. It insults our intelligence. If it is sparingly used, in the proper context, I can live with that.
      
      If my husband and I sit down to watch a movie and it starts out with a gratuitous string of expletives, no thank you! Off it goes and back to the search for quality entertainment

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      1. 82

         GA Andersonposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

         Amen on the F-word thought. I don't like it at all. Growing up it and the MF-word were the worst of the worst used for the most angry retorts. I didn't like them then and I especially don't like them now that they have become an accepted part of common conversation. And it's not the cussing part that bothers me. I was a sailor and could hold my own with cussing, but not with those words.
         
         I won't speak for you, but I think that mindset is showing my age.
         
         GA

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      2. 87

         tsmogposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

         Thanks, AB! My hope with the posting OP oddities is to provoke thought that is away from the normal stream of debate.
         
         I understand the dislike of the F-bombs. I typically don't use that word while it is more accepted today in one sense. I don't use it all today or for many years now. It is in movies I feel too much today. Comedians like to use the word with their stand up acts. When I hear an older child use it I always wonder where did they learn it from.
         
         However, as shared in my OP post in the days I turned wrenches repairing cars and bench racing in my twenties or early thirties the F-word would be used in a sense of an art form among closed circles of co-workers or friends.
         
         It was used in a particular manner otherwise it stood out and would be considered offensive. But, never ever used in the presence of women, though I have heard them toss it out now and then.

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   Nathanvilleposted 4 weeks ago

   I haven’t been able to find an exact match for UK public opinion polls, the closest I could find is the British view of “behaviour in the form of comments and social media posts” in relations to “people are able to speak their minds freely” vs “that people should be safe from abuse and threats” on social media.
   
   As per screen dumps below:  The results for Brits seems to be the opposite to attitudes in the USA e.g. in the UK, almost two-thirds of Brits feel that ‘social media should be safe from abuse and threats’ and only 1 in 5 Brits are in favour of the American style ‘freedom of speech’.
   
   And another difference, is that unlike the USA, such opinions in Britain are not ‘partisan’ e.g. there is no real difference between Labour and Conservative voters in their views on the subject.
   
   
   
   

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   1. 87

      tsmogposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

      Thanks for contributing, Arthur. I think the YouGov poll parallels the Pew Research study very closely. 'Safe from abuse' on social media to me would mean offensive language (words) or images.
      
      As I see it the two that parallel are:
      
      ** % who say people saying things that are very offensive to others is a (major problem, minor problem, not a problem) in the country today
      
      ** That people are safe from abuse and threats
      
      47% vs. 64%.
      
      Yes, a difference, but the overall sentiment remains the same as I see it. With the Pew Research study if you add major problem with minor problem you arrive with 88% say it is a 'problem'.
      
      I would suspect with the US Pew Research Study, which was not specific to online/social media, most participants would have reflected on social media rather than social gatherings or workplace settings where it occurs most.
      
      However, significant may be the memory of that incident that had the greatest impact on an individuals life. I know right now I am reflecting on the workplace when I was offended by someone's comment on this or that contrary to my stance and if was offensive. But, mostly I observe it from social media and reading threads for posts in the political spectrum. They can get pretty nasty.

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         Nathanvilleposted 3 weeks agoin reply to this

         Thanks; you seem to have given a fair comparative analysis of the two polls.
         
         Yes, American politics “can get pretty nasty”; British politics (most of the time) is generally quite tame compared to American politics – British politics is far more civilised, as expressed in this short video where Rishi Sunak’s gives his final speech as prime minister following the defeat of the Conservatives in our General Election on 4th July (a complete contrast to when Trump lost):  https://youtu.be/hPdpemrGmg8

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