What are we going to do about Mexico?
Led....you are completely wrong..
Huntington couldn't be farther from the truth, and my own experiences, beyond the excellent rebuttals offered by LULAC, MAlDEF, and others that have been made.
To cluster Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Mexicans, Salvadorians, and different peoples together is ridiculous... Similarity in names and to some extent language spoken is misguided.
Mexicans, as a people, have lived in the United States long before the recent immigrants....and being that they were transformed into foreignors on soil that had been their own alters their situation...Cubans and Puerto Ricans can not claim the same thing.
My former girlfriend's parents emigrated illegally. Not only did all three of their daughters attend university in the United States, but they are no different than my own family, who emigrated from Ottoman Armenia by way of Egypt.
In fact, it was all of these immigrants, Armenians, Germans, Italians, Mexicans, Jews, Chinese, Japanese, and others who were forced to live together in segregated cities like Los Angeles where "white" meant Anglo-Saxon....and everything else was "less than."
My current girlfriend's parents were also undocumented immigrants....two daughters are in college, one at UCLA currently, and the youngest is in high school, and just finished taking her CAHSEE exam... This "stubborn" mentality that Huntington tries to prove is nonexistent...especially to the degree that Huntington tries to argue...
They celebrate the Fourth of July, Thanksgiving, President's Day....they listen to American music, amongst others... I don't know how much more "American" people can get...
Huntington was a racist...but he was also the "Father of American Sociology"....teaching at Harvard.. Of course, his family is also the same that was behind the Central Pacific Railroad, the development of the California railways, as well as a powerful force behind the development of Los Angeles....Huntington Beach, Huntington Library, Huntington Park...Samuel Huntington...all the same bunch.. they jump into the educational system like the Romans did into the Catholic Church...
As for "our Muslims".....Muslims are diverse, from many different places and with many different beliefs...some are more Sufi, some have not left past influences, like Zoroastrianism, behind... To speak of them as one group is equally absurd as "Hispanic" is........
Racism can be similar...but when one is an aggressor and the other's are responders, if the first is taken down, the others can be put down.I also hate Sociology. Worst pseudoscience out there. Well we agree on grouping people is absurd anyway. I also think you have a bit on tunnel vision due to where you live. I can understand way. I lived in SoCal for the first ten years of my life. If it wasn't for my dad moving us around a bit I might be as myopic as you.
LA is not America. In fact I'd almost consider LA to be something un-American. You need to try to travel more. Get out of Cali. Even in a state like Missouri there are massive differences of opinion, religion, "culture" etc. Still we all make it work. That is America.
But you also make my point for me. Undocumented or not, your gf and her family are assimilating into the mainstream of US life. They're learning the language, adopting the culture. In short, they're becoming citizens.
What I object to is the multicultural idea that you can have distinct separate "cultures" without a mainstream one. You can't. Especially in a nation that has an entitlement mentality. Then it becomes a civil war over entitlements.Yeah, go to a Red state like Kansas. Visit a paradise like Topeka where they shoot abortion doctors in church.
You know Ralph, all you're doing is showing what a rabble rouser you really are. You complain that there isn't thoughtful debate, then you go making statements like "Go Topeka, where they shoot abortion doctors".
Yow know for a fact that I'm not a fan of violence and abhor it. I find that comment to be particularly abhorrent because I do believe in Christian principles; the foremost being "Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you". Do all self-described Christians follow that belief. No. True Christians live according to that principle, those who call themselves Christians and act in a manner not congruent with the Golden Rule are not Christian, no matter what they claim.
You might consider growing up, Ralph.
"You missed my point. My point was that if you accept welfare, you don't get to vote until you're off the dole."
I was unclear about your question....I do not believe in any way that the right to vote should be infringed upon... My brother, who is a felon on parole, cannot vote... When he is off parole, I believe that his voting rights, regardless of if he chooses to use them, should be reinstated....but this is not the case....
This voice cannot be cut off....we are not here to create an underclass...I thought we were trying to stop this type of behavior?
I don't feel for the poor and downtrodden....I am against exploitation and profiteering that drives people to be poor and downtrodden....
The reason why companies left was because they could do it cheaper elsewhere... There are other factors, but the U.S. Chamber of Commerce in China is against the Chinese independent labor movement as it is here.....but the "it" is Walmart, Home Depot, Target and others....
American manufacturers can stay in business if markets and government incentives do not reward those who leave...
Many years ago I was reading an article discussing how the coming (now having already occurred) "pulldown" of import quotas on foreign textiles.. The writers were calling out that American producers would no longer be able to keep their products high quality, American workforce, or potentially their corporate lives....
The quotas came down, and what was foreseen occurred....the writers emphasized that the barriers were being removed by the World Trade Organization...which does not have American working interests at heart..
Reestablish systems that will drive up the demand for American produced goods, but also support labor laws in those nations that American goods are made.... This is even basic quality control....the recalls of Chinese goods should teach us that Americans need to flex their muscles to enforce manufacturing laws in other nations...why not push for labor rights as well?
These are not farfetched ideas....just against the grain.....
I was never implying that there aren't illegal immigrants on welfare...however, being that fear of being caught and deported is of primary significance in one's mind (if illegal)...even to the point that tax refunds often go uncollected, I don't know how much attention one desires by going out and jumping on welfare...
I will check the statistics statewide when I get back later...but I will be surprised if undocumented immigrants make up a sizeable percentage compared to their American citizen counterparts....
We should also check out what percentage of Walmart employees are also on government assistance...food stamps, and the like...Led...as for my travelling experiences...I lived for a year in south eastern Arizona...in North Western Florida for another...what...almost year.. Hawaii for another year and a half..in the military and out... I have spent time in San Francisco....in Mexico... I have been through Juarez on more than one occasion, and have ventured via bus as far as Chinecates, about four hours north of Durango City...I stayed there for a few weeks...mostly in the country side, but occasionally venturing into the local city...
I made careful note of the AAMCO maquiladora between the ejido I was staying on and the nearby town.... Living with their grandparents, I lived with boys...the oldest only 19, who preferred to work 10 hour days, six days per week for 50 dollars...than work their land or tend to their cattle... They have a tv and a few vhs tapes... I can go into greater detail..but I'm late for an appointment...
My views are far outside of L.A., but being the nation's largest county...it is important to observe what this social experiment has created.....
It is a microcosm of America.....the segments can be found...which is what I love about the place...
Talk to you later....Mike the only way to reestablish demand for American products is for Americans to make goods more cheaply. How exactly do we do that? I mean I know how to do it, I'm curious to see of you do.
Like my reasoning for depriving people on the dole of the vote. If you don't do something like that the people on the dole will only vote to continue expanding the dole. How can any society survive if you have more people getting benefits from a welfare program than pay into it?
I really wish you'd try to start a business, maybe then you'd get a better appreciation of what it takes to run a business and provide for your employees.
Based on your talk about reestablishing quotas, what you're talking about is protectionism by another name. We tried that in 1930, it just deepened and make the Depression, Great.
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/obri … oot.tariff
In your vision of America, you'd have us stagnate and never develop anything new. Not because you're a bad person, but because you don't understand economics. You can't ever keep the status quo; markets, like people are always in flux.
I think all the troops should come home and guard our boarders. we cant afford anymore people, I hate to say it, but its true. As for the Mexicans that are already here, and behaving themselves should be aloud to stay, on condition...they are forced to learn and speak English and also pay taxes. like the rest of us.if they cant pass an English test then they should have to go back. Most every school in America has to have a Spanish translator so they can communicate with Mexican parents...it cost the schools a hole lot of money...think about ALL the other places that have to hire on Spanish speaking employees so they they don't get slapped with a lawsuit. We all need to face it...we just cant afford them..it would save the united state billions and billions of dollars if they just brought all the troops home and have them guard our boarders...we are fighting a war we cant afford to fight...we need to worry about ourselves for a change..we are in serious financial trouble
Well Small you're a voice of reason. I would go for that, lets just protect our country. We have the technology and the people to ensure our safety and the cost would be trillions less!
"if they cant pass an English test then they should have to go back."
And what would you do with natural-born American citizens who couldn't pass that same test?well that's easy Sab, Special Education, you may have heard of it....every school offers it, they also offer Tutoring....The Privilege of Being an American... but then again with all the schools going broke and closing now adays and many programs being cut...who knows whats going to happen, the united stated is worried more about other country's then our own...its the American youth that will suffer...I always thought that anyone who wanted to become American should be aloud too, this is a great country..and not all Mexicans are bad, they just want to make a better life for their families...but at this point and time, we need to worry about the American people....if your loved one had the last bottle of water would you tell him to give it away? Knowing that if he did he would likely die of dehydration? I don't think you would... we are giving everything away, and in the end it will be us hurting.
The word you have misspelled several times now is "allowed."
And what would you do with adult Americans walking around at this moment who couldn't pass your test? There are plenty of them. Send them back to elementary school? Deport them to...?
"not all Mexicans are bad"
Well, isn't that generous of you?
perfect example sab...I spelled "allowed" wrong...if my school had more resources available to me..I may know how to spell it correctly..BUT my school was to busy teaching Spanish speaking children English..:-)...the schools didn't want to be accused of leaving them behind I guess..:-( ...and NO "not all Mexicans are bad"....My sons best friend is Mexican and he speaks English and Spanish very well..BUT his parents do NOT speak ANY English...and they have been here 10 years...don't you think its time they a forced to learn?
Oh..and you know what I find very interesting.....that at my sons school, Spanish class is NOT an elective...he has to take it and he has to pass it....My son is being forced to learn Spanish....so why are the Mexicans not being forced to learn English?
But you don't have the material rexources.....and the human capital is deemed "too expensive"....
America has built its own dependence on foreigners and their assets...Led...my argument was two fold...
On one hand, penalties should be established on goods brought in that can be produced in the United States....but the other aspect, which has never been put in motion, to enable freedom for workers to collectivize...that is something that must be done...
I agree with you..just establishing quotas and the like won't do because there will be a cheaper or illicit source....but, to set an example for the world by enabling workers in warehouses...driving drayage trucks, picking strawberry fields and the like to garner recognition...
An example of "recognition"...
The United States, like England, France, and other nations treated its enlisted/conscripted soldiers poorly.... Our nation's history is filled with revolts, from the Revolution to World War One by white and black Americans alike. The G.I. Bill, following World War Two (socialism in action) was a completely different tone....and has altered the perception and incentive of military service...(further socialism through the funding of education and lifestyle..it's a great thing)
Plus free health care...medical, dental, psychological...low to no money down mortages..low interest rates..preferred hiring status..the works...
Never before had this been done in American history...
But you had to be white to get the benefit....Mexican American veterans, African American veterans found themselves with no assistance, and living in a society of increased discrimination.. Contrary to what some like to put out, racial division was practiced more and more intensely decade by decade up until the era of "Civil Rights".... The American Tanzimat...
This all lead to the creation of LULAC.....and the formation of MEChA....both beneficial organizations who still continue to enable the intermingling process of accuturation..but with a more positive branching of both...as opposed to one over the other...
Now the benefits stand for all who can take on the challenge and earn an honorable discharge....and I served with men who weren't even American citizens...but we wore the same uniform.
Whether workers want to stay as temporary status or gain a pathway to citizenship, they are paying their dues through their efforts...and they deserve at least as much as the other soldiers...without the Mexican Braceros in American fields...troops during the first and second world wars would have been quite hungry....
Also, it isn't a matter of goods being cheap to make Led.....what made goods pricey was also the price of movement...the thing that seems to be left out all of the time....
What makes American goods great is that we have free trade within our borders..flat rates...but the government socialized them all...making sure that companies weren't screwing with one another through rate wars...
Am I wrong?
The movement of goods into this nation, especially by companies based in this nation, need to be brought into the equation...
I am not an expert by any means..there are things that are standing out in the open that need to be addressed...The GI Bill of Rights is not a social welfare program. Neither is the VA. Hell my dad used the GI Bill to get his first degree and used the VA to purchase our first house after he retired. That's not welfare, that's a country supporting those who put their lives on the line to secure our rights. I don't have any problem whatsoever with that. What I do have a problem with is things like the Federal Student Aid program.
I'll even accept the argument that our government has been racist in the past and denied benefits to minorities, even those that served. But we don't today and that is significant.
Now I know the FAFSA is supposed to just be for poor people, but no welfare program just stays for the poor. One of the unintended consequences of the Federal Student Aid program is the runaway cost of college tuition. My argument is that it's this subsidy which is the cause of tuition increases across the board. Same thing with Medicare and Medicaid. Subsidies always cause costs to increase. Why is it in our deflationary economy when the prices of just about everything else is going down, college tuition and healthcare isn't?
As for the early 20th century, there was no need for a GI Bill of Rights, we had a pitifully small army and navy. The reason the bill was enacted after the big 2 was to avoid the mini-depression we suffered through after we demobilized from World War I. By retraining our returning troops and keeping them all from entering the workforce at the same time, the plan was to minimize the economic problems associated with demobilization. For the most part, it worked.
If there is any confusion about why I mentioned the GI Bill, I want to clarify that this was to show how the government, when it really desires to put an effort into changing something, it can...
I am glad that this nation did so, because it paid out for a good chunk of my education...and the extra package for post 9-11 hasn't even been addressed... I think I still have some money out there...
The United States of the early twentieth century, in my view, is not the same beast...
But, perhaps you have a different viewpoint?You're the only one dancing Sab..and you are the only one who is laughing...
I don't see anything here that is comedic...nor do I see anyone else carrying on as you...you claim age and wisdom..you show neither.
By the way, did you get a chance to look at any of the links I posted? I guess the SOA is all a liberal conspiracy?
Sneak...is that what we need to direct to Juarez? What is going on over there? Why are workers rights activists ending up dead....their killings mixed in amongst the larger news involving narco-trafficking?Hey I think there is plenty of excesses in the news about our not so ethical ceos and bankers that serious oversight is needed! Paying screw-ups bonuses with our bailout money is wrong on every level!
"You're the only one dancing Sab"
Ok, so elaborate on the 'racial theory' you started to talk about earlier.
OK, it would seem that not very many of you all know how the government and the culture in mexico work.
First, everyone or just about everyone makes about 2 to 4 US dollars a day, from doctors to maids. Secondly, they can do this and still live comfortably because everything is extremely cheap there, and healthcare is free. This is because the government there owns and runs the only bread company ( pan bimbo) and gas companies ( pemex), plus they only require one thing of their people (no taxes of any kind) and that is the head of the family must volunteer six months of free labor to the government, and that provides him and his whole family and extended family free hospitals, including any kinds of surgery.
The University of Guadalajara specializes in gunshot wounds and there are many many american students who go there to med school for you can graduate in 6 or 7 years, come up here and take your tests, and be able to put any gunshot wound puzzle back together.
The only people that make more than stated above, are those who own their own businesses, and drug cartels, and of course polititions. the americans are more than welcome for thier tourist money. Rent is cheap, we had a five bedroom house with seperate maids quarters, stables and a place for a large garden for only $64 dollars a month. I loved it thereIt sounds like an absolute utopia! So why are they coming here by the tens of millions? Seems to me that Americans and Mexicans should trade countries.
but we have to have a problem with their working system, even tho they dont because it is socialistic. It seems to me that our government has its nose in our business way more then the mexican government has in their peoples....not that I am condoning socialism. Personally after living there for almost a decade, I don't see what the big problem is except for their messed up elections, and who is to say ours isn't a fixed deal here? Hey dont we need to count Florida's again? It didn't come out right....HA
Led.....I would definitely call the GI Bill a social welfare program of sorts...and its benefits pass on to the children of those who served.... You may not call it so, but I do. I have it, I use it, and it is all money from the government and tax payers..
With this said, following the Civil War, following World War One, the American military forces were not little things...I don't know where you got that idea... But back to my point....the U.S. gov't didn't care....which is why soldiers protested...marching on Washington, and far more... It was Civil Rights for the military...and they got recognition..at least the whites did until the 1960's...over twenty years after the end of World War 2.
I agree with you Led, that our government has not acted as discriminatory towards ethnic minorities as it has in the past.....but this is why I called the Civil Rights Movement the American Tanzimat.... I don't know how permanent a change this will be...
Check out Tanzimat.
I disagree that the GI Bill was enacted to avoid a minidepression....our production was strong, and the world needed our money and products....we were fine...
However, there were some guys...some named Huntington, who had been playing real estate in places like the San Fernando Valley....and they needed people to live in the homes that were built....and the "society of tomorrow" (like Lakewood) needed inhabitants....white ones at least.... The San Fernando Valley....the tax bread basket of the City of Los Angeles, was developed entirely for white Veterans....and Huntington (who's name graces the San Fernando Valley as well on nearby Huntington Street...stood to make a fortune...and they did...its nice to have both business and government working for you......
I agree with you concerning subsidies, but my issue is that costs at educational institutions also continued to rise because, as with real estate...by pushing up the rates many are left behind...another way of keeping "undesirables" out...
This is why from Los Angeles Mission College most students will end up at CSUN or some other Cal State University.....it is quite cheap compared to UCLA.....and which looks better on the resume and has a much stronger alumni association?
The main point of bringing up all this was, however, that major change can be made, and can be beneficial...as the GI Bill was and is... Those who work for the United States, who produce for American markets, for American bank accounts...they deserve to be treated with respect...
But, the United States has not been a nation of respect towards non whites or non Christians over its track record...and its recent "better" behavior is often clouded over by other types of oppressive acts...from Nixon trying to override farmworkers by subsidizing grapes left unpurchased because of consumer boycotts, to shooting American students at Kent State, and quickly, silently, and illegally using the backdrop of the L.A. Riots to deport thousands of people...many citizens....without following federal, state, and local laws.... This is the side of the 1992 Riots that I have not heard anyone mention....but George H W Bush pulled some interesting strings as President...as his wayward son did.....
I'm running off to the L.A. Marathon now....take care Led..No they don't. My dad received benefits from the GI Bill, but I didn't because I didn't serve. While he was in the service and until I was 21, I received Champus benefits, perhaps that is what you meant?
Um, we massively demobilized after the War Between the States and the Great War. World War II was an exception in that we did not massively demobilize, we still kept a sizable army and navy.
I can see why you relate everything to race. My last year in public school in California was the 7th grade. It was 1987 and the state had just instituted a new class on prejudice and discrimination that everyone had to take. I only had one year of the class and most of the introductory stuff was things that any right-thinking person could agree to. Prejudging people on the basis of skin color, ethnicity, etc. is not a smart thing to do. I do think, however, that things like discrimination and prejudice can be taken too far.
For one thing it ignores the fact that in order to correlate all the information a human mind must process, the mind uses certain "shortcuts" when processing things. But as is often said: "Familiarity breeds contempt", so that exposure to different things often times causes a person to change their outlook in view of new information. So much of what we call prejudice is just the human minds way of making sense of the world.
Mike, government in general is shady and reading the history of things government has done in the past is enough to make you puke. So I'm not terribly surprised at the ham-fisted way things are done, especially in Cali.
Thanks for the Tanzimat thing, I'll have to read up on it. I think comparing it to Reconstruction is a bit of a stretch, but I'm sure it makes fascinating reading. I, too, have a suggestion for you. How Rome Fell by Adrian Goldsworthy is a fascinating read on the decline of Rome.
http://www.amazon.com/How-Rome-Fell-Dea … 0300137192
What I particularly enjoyed abut Mr. Goldsworthy's book is how he was very meticulous about what we have evidence for and what is simply conjecture. It's a refreshing bit of intellectual honesty. In some ways I don't think he goes far enough. A quick example is the economic and social effects of having essentially four imperial bureaucracies during the Domitiate and the effects of Rome slowly devaluing the denarii. But like the man says, records were not kept or are fragmentary, especially as concerns economic data. Still I feel pretty confident in my assumptions because of other eras in which we have data like 1920's Germany or Zimbabwe today to claim that devaluing a nation's monetary supply leads to societal chaos and dissolution.
Good luck on your run.
Led...I used to work for the VA...specifically with educational benefits... I personally did the work providing money for the children of veterans...and for spouses.. Dependency is an issue.... As for medical benefits, anyone who is my dependent now is entitled to my VA...
Perhaps your case fell into a special category...I don't know... But I do know that benefits can be used by family members.
Militaries typically demobilize...which is why there were so many instances of disgrunted veterans...officers receiving half-pay....some.....and enlisted being given their marching orders..no pay...no food.....especially after the dependence that military life itself can breed....
I agree with you that government is shady....but so is the corporate side.
The government, however, is the only entity that is obligated to ensure that Americans are being protected.... Corporations have no such requirement...
I am not an idealist by any means... Yet, government, at least our government, is still manipulateable by us......We can enter government through engaging our electorate...you and I...and even Saddie Boy.... Congressmen, Mayors, Presidents are dependent on our support to carry them to office... We are dependent on what corporate interests decide....not vise versa...
I believe that it is important to have a strong government that can stand against the forces within its boundaries that are often contradictory and out to destroy... I look to Theodore Roosevelt...,who used his authority to reign in abuseive management...the man who constructed the precedent that organized labor utilizes today... Was T.R. in his support of workers collectivising a socialist? Was he behaving in an unAmerican fashion?
In terms of comparing Tanzimat to Reconstruction...I never did such a thing... I, instead, placed Tanzimat next to the United States post 1964.
Regarding Spanish being a mandatory language to learn in school...
In support of this, Mexico is our largest trading partner, and increasingly the source of our stuff...Central and South America will also grow.. Learning Spanish would be an excellent resume booster... It also enhances the learning of other languages..especially when coupled with knowledge of English..
Yet...if Spanish is the only choice available at this school I 1) will be very surprised 2) want to know where it is, and 3) don't see why formal complaints are not being made on your part, if you care so much (to smalltown)... availability of teachers can of course an issue...
I attended a junior high that was over 90 percent of Mexican descent, with youth of Salvadorian, Honduran, Armenian (I was the only one), African.....a relatively small number...and Western European...like 10 kids... The total school population was about 3000.....
Spanish and French were both offered...It may be that I never heard of any of those programs. Pity.
The main difference as I see it, between government and corporations, is that corporations cannot imprison or kill you. Since they can't do that, they cannot really compel you to buy their product. Yes, I know government doesn't really produce anything, other than (mostly) useless laws; but the fact remains that companies can't force you to buy their product, they have to convince you.
Theodore Roosevelt was a scumbag. I know you like him because he gave unions a place at the table, but I still stand by my assertion that unions are a big reason why many of our domestic manufacturing companies have gone away.
I'm a bit curious as to what you think about the following article about the Fed and who really controls it:
http://mises.org/daily/4171Mises was a great economist who wrote about conditions in the 19th and early 20th century. If he were alive today he would have nothing to do with libertarian, randian idealogues. He would be a neo-Keynesian like nearly all mainstream economists, conservative and liberal, from Mankiiw to Samuelson and Krugman all of whom agree that effective regulations and social insurance are needed to keep free market economies from self-destructing. The arguments are over what needs to be regulated (e.g., bank deposits insured by the FDIC and Social Security and unemployment compensation) and how best to do it as in the current discussions in Congress.
Led, I read this article and it reminded me of the University of California Regents....
I am also reminded of Secretary of the Treasury Andrew Mellon....
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