Drug wars, illegal activities spilling over, murder, illegal imagration and coruption. Not to mention the easy access for terrorists! What would it take to call Americans to action?
this is one of the reasons why i think the usa would be so much better off trying to annex mexico into a state. this way we wouldn't have to worry about that pesky border problem, and we could better police mexico.
We had our chance "in the halls of Montezuma".
that's true. we also had a chance to take over the freaking world in ww2. personally, from looking at how our country is today, i think we would've been better off just taking over the world.
As in, if you're going down the rest of us are going down with you?
well we might as well, since the usa military is practically always on call to police the world anyway, so it might've been better if we did control the world. maybe we could've stopped tragedies like 9/11 from even happening if we had more control of the situation.
as for the economic recession we're in right now, i can't get into that as it would require me to refer back to a lot of american history that i'm a bit too lazy at the moment to get into. lol. sorry, but i just wanted to be honest with you. lol. however, i can see what your implying here, but lets just agree to disagree.
in the words of rodney dangerfield and eddie murphy, "hey im not a fighter, i'm a lover."
I agree to disagree. This could get into some nasty policy stuff. And puhleez don't go into American history, I've heard it enough
"i think the usa would be so much better off trying to annex mexico into a state"
R U crazy ?
Why Mexicans would want to be Americans ??
Only a few want that.
I wouldn't !!
Glad to hear it, you are more than welcome to stay away. However, there sure seem to be plenty of folks in Mexico dying to get into the US.
And they sure die ! LOL
If you consider that Mexico has 104 million people, not even 1 % wants to be American !
In fact, very few people around the world want. And those who do are not very clever . LOL!
"And they sure die ! LOL"
Some sure do.
Why would you laugh about that?
I'm laughing at you, not at them.
you're so obvious ! LOL!
A very callous and inappropriate attitude. You must be very proud of yourself for being so lighthearted about people dying.
It looks like you don't know how to read! What a pity !
You can't think of nothing else ? It seems you don't have anything to say.
So why are you here ?
To begin a fight?
You're wasting your time !!
If very few want to be Americans then why are they flooding into our borders?
One thing we could do would be to regulate the manufacture and sale and possession of non-sport weapons and put a stop to the flow from the U.S. across the border to Mexico.
The simple answer, legalize freedom! If drugs and immigration were legal there wouldn't be a profit motive with a margin so high, that it's worth killing for!
Of course, you'd have to end the welfare state at the same time.
And who do you think they're making business with ???
Americans need to cease being the #1 consumers of illegal drugs on the planet. If there weren't any users there wouldn't be any suppliers. Also stop supporting the tourism industry in those countries. You'll see how fast they shape up.
On a more cynical note, The drug trade also fuels an underground guns trade. How would gun companies stateside make any money. The mail room workers in the corporate drug structure(street gangs) would have no reason to kill each other anymore and go back to playing basket ball. The booming prison industry would crash. The government would have no alternative but to step in and (bail) everyone out. More big government.
What are we going to do about Mexico?
How did we get California and Texas?.....well?
My mom was almost in that. She was going to go, but changed her mind at the last minute.
Hey are you in Jacksonville? My son's there on spring break.
Jacksonville for spring break?? Nope. Beaches suck. I'm in South Florida. But I went to Atlanta for Spring break.
Well he left his female friends house in Atlanta to go to her families beach place. He won't get in the water he's scared to death of sharks and crabs!(the beach kind) He said if he saw fat people in thongs he'd go blind. I think his computational chemistry is mess'in with his head! He's a p90x fool!
Why go to the beach but not go in the water? There aren't many crabs on Florida beaches because our beaches are sand, not rocky like west coast. Thats mean about the fat people, they deserve to wear what they want. Tell him to drive 5 hours south and go to good beaches.
This past year there were 40,000 new laws introduced in the United States of America.
What good is law if it's not enforced?
Government is out of control.
So what we are going to do about Mexico is exactly what we are doing right now. Nothing will change.
Isn't Mexico a sovereign country? Why would you do anything about it?
Just to control our border so it doesn't spill over. I really don't want any part of their problems.
Well good. The title led me to believe you were planning a meddlesome takeover.
Oh no! We have all the problems we need right now!
Actually a "takeover" (however you want to define that), is the only way Mexico will find peace. The drug cartels running amok are only the tip of more serious problem Mexico faces. The average Mexican makes $2.00US a day. The illiteracy, government corruption, lack of city services (water, sewer, etc), and practically no middle class are only a few of the problems. If the United States were to take a greater role in Mexico's internal affairs, that country would start seeing prosperity almost immediately.
Maybe we should all just start buying Mexican products. If we all did that then there would be a boom down there, plenty of jobs and money. Everything is cheaper there anyway so we'll be saving and also spending less on Chinese products. Plus, the more money Mexicans have the more likely they'll start using and get hooked on their own drugs...there you go drug problem solved. Buy Mexican they're the OTHER Americans
What are we going to do about Mexico?
didnt we trade mexico to the chinese for some fried rice
Here is what's going to happen in Mexico. The "war" down there is primarily between two cartels, but the Mexican government has attempted to keep peace even though it's been warned to keep out of it. Once the warring factions are done, there will be an uneasy truce between the dominant cartel and Calderon.
But here's the clincher: The cartels have already infiltrated every level of government down there. The dominant cartel will demand full representation in the Mexican Congress and will likely get it under a newly-formed party. It will be a "party of the people," you might say. The dominant cartel and its various subsidiaries will continue to manufacture and distribute drugs into the U.S. -- its primary market -- and will also set up legitimate corporations.
Calderon was in Ciudad Juarez -- perhaps the most violent city in the world -- last week telling everybody that all was well. He's now promising new schools in CJ, better quality education, and other perks "for the people." But there are elections there this summer and, with 18,000 dead in three years in Mexico, Mexicans don't believe a word he says. Kind of like Obama here.
There is absolutely no way the cartels will suddenly vanish. They are too entrenched in the cities and in the political system. And the lucrative drug routes into the U.S. are worth billions. Of course, if you take away the bait the fish won't bite. Like, if you take away the jobs the illegals won't come here, and if Americans stopped using illegal drugs there wouldn't be cartels. But that won't happen.
As far as what we're going to do ABOUT Mexico -- nothing. Illegals will continue to pour into the United States. But there is talk of giving them refugee status now that the drug war has permeated the border. Texas is beefing up its share of the border, and armed U.S. militias are taking a more active role. Of course, you've heard of our national forests being used as pot havens by Mexican drug lords. So the only alternative is to totally seal the border. That would only divert the drugs to Europe via Africa, and would dry up the U.S. corporations' cheap supply of labor. And that would upset La Raza's political objective of taking the White House. So, to answer the question: Nothing.
18000 dead in Mexico and the Mexicans dont believe a word he says, kinda like Obama here.
ARE YOU CRAZY? The last I knew, I have'nt seen 18000 dead here! Especially at the hands of anyone affiliated with Obama. And me personally, although I'm not inclined to believe all of anything any polititians say, I trust Obama more than anyone else in our government. Especially Republicans!!!
It's mostly marijuana that's coming into this country. And that's the cash cow for the cartels. I'm not sure if legalizing marijuana would help any. Somebody would still have to supply the weed. Legalizing pot would only make cross-border trafficking easier and legitimize it. The problem is the cartels are so firmly entrenched in every facet of Mexican life that drug dealing has become accepted as a way of life there. Again, the only way to curtail illegal immigration and drug trafficking is to totally seal the borders (plural). Then we'd have a five-year period as Americans suffered withdrawal.
No money in that ! LOL! that's why it's not legalized.
i beg to differ with you tantrum. there IS money in drugs. i don't know if you read forbes magazine or not, but there was some controversy over the top 100 or whatever billionaires of the world. and one of the listed people was a columbian drug lord. there was a lot of controversy about him being named because many of the other listed guys didn't like how it would promote a drug dealer like that. however, since the drug lord was one of the richest men in the world, forbes listed him anyway. point being, there IS money in drugs. therefore, it only makes sense to legalize it, so the government can better regulate it and tax it, so it can help stimulate our economy.
there's no money in legalizing . because governments make business with its traffic. didn't you know that ? illegal makes more money than legal. Everywhere !
that's true. however, it would reduce organized crime down a bit, and it would allow states like california and many others to recover due to the economic recession because of those taxes that would be levied on the drugs. Plus, if it were legal, we could put more regulations on it like an age limit, so our youths today wouldn't be doing drugs.
Like the age limit is keeping our youth from drinking alcohol?
We should treat organized crime the same way we treat enemy combatants. They are enemies of the law and enemies of the state. Problem is, last time a President and his administration became obsessed with eliminating organized crime, he was assassinated as well as his Attorney General brother. Organized crime is entrenched within our own government as it is in Mexico so I don't see an end to this madness.
Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California share the responsibility for securing the US/Mexico border and if it were left in the hands of the States instead of the Feds, I think we might see a better job.
oh but there is ever hear of the pharmaceutical industry?
you know , the ones already selling the legal more dangerous drugs. legal drugs kill more people every year than all illicit ones combined
I think we have a bigger problem with illegal drug traffic than we can reasonably handle, "legalize" within boundries like so many other countries, I mean if you need you crack or whatever go to the two or three states that can permit you access and live there, then If you get caught with it elsewhere... Bang there is a bus ticket to crackland enjoy the raised taxes in crackland.
I think there's a larger question here that probably should be posted as a hub. Why do Americans need illicit drugs?
Perhaps a better way to phrase it would be: Why are Americans DESPERATE for drugs? Sorry folks, but life just isn't so tough out there that we have to block out reality to get through a day.
Prescribed drugs are a different issue. But the hard stuff like crack, coke, and meth are beyond the norm. People who use that stuff need serious psychological help -- not more drugs.
There was a very interesting series by BBC called "Mexico's Drug War 2010" recently. It's a seven-part series and details just how normal drug dealing has become down there.
That this "war" is now spilling into the U.S. is not good -- considering that most of our elected representatives are crooks and would be more than happy to take a payoff. Deep South Texas is rife with political corruption, and is prime fodder for a cartel foothold.
we have a few doctors on trial here in Fla for writing scripts of oxys and roxys to people that overdosed and died . i personally knew a girl that oded . it wasn't the docs fault it was hers. she was so talented too ink pastels paint . crazy artwork . she was cool now shes dead . i don't blame the drugs tho . she was searching so hard to find a peace that i think is unattainable in this life . it sure wasn't Mexico's fault . rest in peace jillian
The relationship between the United States and Mexico has centered on illicit trade, on part of which are drugs. While many aimlessly argue here, the trafficking of people into the nation, for prostitution, for sweatshops, and all kinds of other fun things is rampant......
Not only this, but other products, non drug or person, are also brought back and forth across the border....getting around the tax man..
With this said, while people here are emphasizing the flow of stuff into the United States from Mexico, how many are speaking up about the guns moving into that nation from the United States?
How many are speaking out about the Aryan Brotherhood, and other groups like them, that are deeply involved in the violence and crime that this forum thread applies to?
Mexico's problem is that the United States can't keep its hands out of their business, and that the Mexican government, as the U.S. also, can care less about its dominant Indian population...
This is another aspect that most Americans, in my opinion, overlook...... The European elite in Mexico care as much for the Indigenous Mexicans, of Mixtec, Mexica, Zapotec, Maya (and other) lineage...many of whom still speak their native languages and are separated from the European-centric economy and society...
They care as much as Anglo Americans did about Native Americans in North America.......but it is easier to hide all of this under the "Mexican" catch-all....
As for buying goods from Mexico, we already are.....look at the maquila's in Juarez, Nogales, T.J. and now, more and more, throughout Mexico....
Who is doing business there?
Too bad you don't have enough respect for the people of Mexico than to see them as nothing more than damsels in distress before the big, bad country that gave you everything you have. I guess it makes you feel important to pat the little victims on the head and tell them you really, really understand them.
I have learned from them Sab.... My views in the past were like yours, but then I got to know more Mexican people.....I learned....
It is very simple....look at Juarez yourself, and ask about the role of big business there....where did Juarez come from?
It's too bad you have so little respect for them that you choose to ignore their reality...
Too bad Sab...but expected from you.
"I have learned .....I learned...."
Oh you learned alright. You learned to ape the slogans of some unwashed TA who was in turn channeling some self-important 'radical' professor's line. You learned that this made you feel important too and you learned to internalize it and fuse it to your ego. Too bad you haven't learned to respect the people of Mexico more than your own ego.
It is also too bad that you don't reserve any of the oh-so-charitable attitude you apply to corrupt third world countries for your own homeland; you know, the one that provided you with your freedom, education, and the opportunity to puff and preen and pontificate like this?
It appears Texas has initiated an undeclared state of war. The violence coming from Ciudad Juarez into El Paso has escalated so badly that Texas Governor Rick Perry has activated air, sea, and ground troops -- all controlled by Texas.
Perry calls this "critical elements of the state's spillover violence contingency plan" and is top secret. These steps include:
1. Increased surveillance of border activity by state and local law enforcement, the Texas Border Security Operations Center, and the Joint Operational and Intelligence Centers to ensure the timely sharing of intelligence information.
2. Increased ground, air and maritime patrol presence, and
3. Increased intensity of day and night DPS (Department of Public Safety) helicopter patrol operations along the Rio Grande River, as well as National Guard helicopters to support aviation missions.
Additional resources, not revealed by Perry for security reasons, stand by for rapid deployment. These include DPS SWAT Teams and Trooper Strike Teams, as well as Ranger Recon Teams prepared to reposition based on threat.
The drug cartels' infiltration into every facet of government both in Mexico and South Texas, has prompted Perry to keep the contingency plan secret. Perry has also asked the White House for additional help.
The threat in Mexico is extremely severe. The Mexican government is corrupt to the core, the population is largely illiterate and unskilled making it prime cartel fodder, and Mexico's economy is on the brink of implosion.
For Mexico to achieve internal peace three things must happen: The United States' demand for marijuana must dry up; arms trafficking into Mexico must stop; corruption in government must be eradicated.
It's likely none of these will happen.
There's an incessant bleeding heart mentality toward the lowly and downtrodden. And, to an extent, there's nothing wrong with that. But Mexico is a different situation.
The Mexican people, as a people, are kind and family-oriented. The Mexicans, generally, are fun-loving and love to laugh and sing. But this is their downfall.
Mexico is a prime example -- A PRIME EXAMPLE -- of a country that has let government spiral out of control. Mexico's government is very similar to the United States' republic. People vote their choice of candidate and are then represented in the Mexican Congress. But the people have not held their representatives accountable. The result is rampant fraud and corruption in government -- even to the point of drug cartel members controlling how members of Congress vote.
President Calderon is only now promising new schools and better quality education in Juarez. But that's only after nearly 5,000 people have died in that city alone since 2008.
A people must take charge of their country. There is no other way. It's solely up to the people to keep their politicians in line. The Mexican people are getting what they deserve. They have chosen to run across the border and utilize an extremely generous U.S. system of welfare rather than meet the challenges facing their country.
It's only a matter of time before American citizens get what they deserve for being apathetic.
The ridiculous blathering here that passes itself off as "intellectual discussion" is ridiculous.
I have Sad/TK who is busy reminiscing in his college days...if he had any....
There is another called foreignpress who somehow categorizes all Mexican people into a ridiculous category that has nothing to do with reality.....and then there is Brenda who tags along...while knowing nothing...
The real three musketeers....
Three brains...so little between them.
I'll be spending some more time with my Mexican "happy sing-song" Mexican friends and hope TK can pass the final exam....
Pathetic all around.
Time to put on thinking caps....you'll have to take your hood off Sad....
http://www.elpasoredco.org/TargetInd-Ma … liers.aspx
What spurs events like this to occur?
The caption to this image reads as follows:
"Theatrical re-creation staged in the Plaza de las Tres Culturas, in Tlatelolco, on October 2nd, 2006, of the tragedy of October 2nd, 1968 – Photo by Roberto García, La Jornada"
"....you'll have to take your hood off Sad...."
And what exactly is that supposed to imply, oh enlightened one?
Don't avoid the question please.
And...and... the theatrical (yeah, theatrical is a certain sort's specialty) re-enactment of what? What are you referring to? Don't you realize that no one has ever heard of that event but you? Why lord your special secret knowledge over the rest of us poor ignorant slobs?
What are we going to do about Mexico? mmmmmm.... Not all Mexicans are murderers, drug dealers, rapists, etc. There is the small percentage that make it horrible for everyone. People are entitled to be free from danger, harm, pain and suffering. Many of them want a better life which includes running water, proper sewage, electricity the things we on this side of the border take for granted. There government is corrupt it is not all of the hispanic population who is corrupt. The people are tired of there struggle and want something better so they run to our Country for safety and new beginnings.
My aunt came from Suarez, Mexico in 1962 she met my Uncle when he was in the military, they lived in El Paso Texas. I would not trade my aunt for the World and she taught us about her heritage, how to cook real Mexican food and the language when we were young children.
What we need to do with Mexico is sit down with there government and have talks about what they can do to change there Country while working with the United States. Putting up walls is going to make people run in fear and will only divide us and our relationship. We should not fear all of the people coming from Mexico, we should fear there government.
"People are entitled to be free from danger, harm, pain and suffering. Many of them want a better life . . ."
Precisely, I couldn't have said it better. But . . . WHO is responsible for making this happen? It's the citizens who are responsible. Not another country or a next door neighbor. But the citizens must take charge and make their country what it should be. It can be no other way. So now Mexico is infested with radicalized vermin because the people who elected an irresponsible government decided to run.
"It is also too bad that you don't reserve any of the oh-so-charitable attitude you apply to corrupt third world countries for your own homeland; you know, the one that provided you with your freedom, education, and the opportunity to puff and preen and pontificate like this?"
Sad/TK....I do...which is why I write in support of the right of workers to form coalitions...to be able to hold the power to collective bargain....
I write on behalf of Mexico because that geographic region is being used by companies that have laid off their American workers....by supporting and speaking up for Mexico I am also standing up for the American working class..the outsourced manufacturing....
You do none of these things....you only seem to support your limited worldview......
By taking off the hodd I refered to that ridiculous avatar you use...to put a thinking cap on...put two and two together..
As for the corrupt third world countries, I have written about Nigeria, and have also expressed my thoughts about Mexico...and I point to the School of the Americas....I look to Shell Oil and their financing and arming of troops that then illegally arrest and kill people who stand for their communities....
And you speak against my words....you speak for the School of the Americas...and you speak on behalf of killers...
I wrote against the murders, kidnappings, and rapes of Coca Cola employees in Columbia....and more in Ecuador..trying to gain a better wage from American companies working abroad...killings funded by Coca Cola....
You speak against me.....
As for the country that gave me freedom...I remember the warm pats on the back I received when I spoke as you do now.....and I see the opposition I receive and hostility when I express the views that have evolved through the larger experiences that I have been provided.....
My freedom has been found in the strength that I attained through the study of my past....of Ottoman Armenia...and of the lies that American Presidents like Wilson proclaim.......
What happened to Wilsonian Armenia Saddie? You said you know Armenians (aside from myself of course)..perhaps they can fill you in...
I see that you either represent absolute ignorance crossed with stubborn will..
...or perhaps you have a strong case of denial....or maybe even you have some sort of agenda to push...I don't know....but I have followed your statements over the past couple months..back when you were TKSensei and you have stood in opposition to pretty much everything I have expressed....and that says alot.
That picture I put up before, which you mocked (what a loon), is based off the reality that is graphically depicted here....
So, answer my question Sad........what was behind the Tlatelolco tragedy?
"...I remember the warm pats on the back I received when I spoke as you do now....."
Again with the drama. Please. You get plenty of pats on the back (or wherever) from the radical lefty crowd now. Don't try to play the 'one courageous soul standing alone against an unjust world!' bit.
You've got a few pet topics that you try to shoehorn into any and every topic, and the rest is just the same tired, failed old 'workers of the world unite' nonsense.
I hate to say it, Sneak Rock, but you are once again fairly misguided...
The Hispanic population in many American cities exceeds that of the non-Hispanic. These people came here pursuing the American dream, are on the most part VERY hard workers (something Americans who are now indigenous could re-learn, including myself), and who do many, many menial tasks we seem to think is best left to others...
These people's children are so bright, so ready to learn...brought up in the Catholic Church, often...
You would like them if you really knew them, or had any time to get acquainted...
Everything you say is correct, Paradise7. Except you are forgetting one small thing: The immigrants who come here -- illegally -- cannot support themselves, are illiterate, and have no job skills. They rely TOTALLY on welfare to get by to include the use of emergency rooms for the tiniest sniffle -- all for free. The issue is very complex with blame on both sides. But this country can no longer support tens of millions of "immigrants" regardless of how well-meaning they are. Of course, Obama's amnesty will take care of this batch of 15 million. Then, in a few years, we'll give amnesty to another 15 million. The bleeding heart mentality can only go so far. At some point, Mexico must take care of its own.
I lived in Guadalajara, Mexico from the age of 12 until I was 18 yrs old. Approx. 14% of the population there is American.
The laws there are different, the culture there is different, but they are very family orientated people, and very hard workers. I would dare say that if push came to shove and there was a war, the federal soldiers that they use for a police force also, would be willing, able, and very available. The drug laws there are much tougher than they are here, and the jails are also tougher. If you go to prison there, you must pay for everything you get including water.....
It is my opinion that we could have much worse neighbors than mexicans...so count your blessing for you know not what you have.
Make them the 51st state and put the ones not already on US welfare rolls, on.
Then ship all their jobs to China and give them all free health care and lifetime unemployment benefits.
Just being facetious,please note.
It would be hard to determine what country could be worse. Mexico ranks up there with machete hackings in Africa, or drugs and human trafficking in Eastern Europe, or terrorist training camps in the Middle East. In fact, there is nothing right in Mexico. And the violence continues to escalate daily. This isn't a rant against the Mexican people, who are almost childlike in their innocence. Mexico is a country totally out of control in every aspect imaginable. Mexico's borders, north and south, need to be shut down and the coasts patrolled by NATO. That would seal drugs and guns trafficking. Without money and arms the cartels would slowly wither. Then Mexico could restart its economy with strong direction from the United States, Spain, and other provider countries.
Mexican people who come here illegally can support themselves.....the ignorance of this thread continues...
I suppose foreignpress, that you have not heard of a hometown association (HTA)?
Are you unaware of organizations like the FIOB?
I know many former undocumented, and I know a few who still are.....and not only are they connected through family and friends, but they do not lose touch with where they came from....
Transnational organizations do their jobs very well.....
Read up, or get to know real people instead of using conjecture from within your bubbles.....
Sad....did you want to explain to me how President Wilson affected Armenians...my own family?
Do you want to answer concerning why the Tlatelolco massacre occurred?
Do you seek to find out why the infux of undocumented Mexican immigrants largely come from Oaxaca...and now Chiapas?
From here we can segway to El Salvador and Guatamala...
"Sad....did you want to explain to me how President Wilson affected Armenians...my own family?
Do you want to answer concerning why the Tlatelolco massacre occurred?
Do you seek to find out why the infux of undocumented Mexican immigrants largely come from Oaxaca...and now Chiapas?
From here we can segway to El Salvador and Guatamala..."
Gosh no, those are also things no one but you has ever, ever heard of...
Btw, the library called and said your books were overdue.
...and teacher gave you another gold star on the book report but said you still need to work on your spelling...
"Mexican people who come here illegally can support themselves....."
All of them? I thought you said you knew Mexican immigrants...hmmm...
No answers again Sad....as usual....
I can't help it if I know more about these issues than you...from Wilsonian Armenia to Tlatelolco and the FIOB....
It is not that I am trying to put out "superiority"....it is rather that I don't see anyone discussing relevant information....as you fail to do in nearly all of your postings...
If you know something...share it.
You claimed to be a teacher.....teach!
As for "all" the immigrants....100% of those I know have had a support system of some type...through family and friends...
Are there some that lack connections....I don't doubt it...but I believe them to be in the minority...
As opposed to one-liners...why don't you write something with substance...
Sad....if you don't know...how can you claim to be a teacher?
From your words, you make it seem as though you are aware of what I am mentioning (though I doubt it)....if this is the case, and you are knowledgeable of what I say...your disagreement demonstrates that you would support Mexican troops killing innocent students and workers over listening to the calls for reform from people who are largely ignored by their government...or rather, the government that imposes its rule over them...
Either you are ignorant or complicit......there is no middle ground with the types of remarks that you make....
What is the School of the Americas Sabbie....what does it do? Where does it get its money? Where is this "school" located?
And how many Mexican military elite have been trained there?
Can't use google, eh Sad?
Keep playing ignorant....
Thank you for proving again, that when it comes to support, you stand firmly on the side of governmental murder.
Evidently from you......
Perhaps your clearance rating needs an upgrade...
The Mexican people, through organizations like the FIOB (what does this stand for?) live up to more "American" ideals and standards than the United States or most American citizens.....
Can you explain what I mean by this Sad?
Book reports won't help you here...so don't bother looking to see if I have published about this....
How many Mexican officers, Saddie....have been trained at the School of the Americas?
You really can't seem to figure out how to break out of the little school boy thing, can you?
Come on, grow up.
Before you continue your silly performance further, why not just tell me your opinion - without reference to some global communist uptopia nonsense - about what the US can, should, and realistically might do in regards to our relations with Mexico given the rapid breakdown of law and order there and in terms of drugs and illegal aliens? Give the library card and the ridiculous assumptions a rest and tell me directly.
Sad....so you can't answer questions?
You only throw out frivolous statements and then redirect by throwing a question of your own?
Start by answering something....
I have answered many of your questions....and you have yet to respond to one of mine....
My answer to your question:
"about what the US can, should, and realistically might do in regards to our relations with Mexico given the rapid breakdown of law and order there and in terms of drugs and illegal aliens?"
I ask again...what was Tlatelolco about? What has evolved since?
Mexico's economic base has crumbled....for indigenous peoples....why?
Emigration and drug trafficking increase as money becomes ever harder to get in Mexico...you should know this....
I point, again, to Trans-National Organizations like FIOB....among many, many others....I see that these entities people are and will continue to be taken care of... I look also to the tightening of labor laws on American, Japanese, South Korean, Canadian, and increasingly Chinese sweatshops/maquilas in Mexico...
For all workers here in the United States who are undocumented....they should be enabled with at minimum guest worker status..meaning higher wages...benefits..not the "race to the bottom" exercised by many produce growers, slaughter house operators, amongst others...
I'm waiting for an actual, substantive response to any question I have made Sad......anything at all...
You have shown only your inability to do so...
Again..you may have to take that hood of yours off...
"For all workers here in the United States who are undocumented....they should be enabled with at minimum guest worker status.."
Ok, so, giving you one last chance and ignoring the silly school-boy 20 questions nonsense...
How would you go about doing that? And how would you at the same time prevent a flood of new illegals rushing to get in while this status was being conferred? Would it be permanent? How long? How many? An unlimited number? You don't see any practical obstacles aside from whether or not it is a good idea?
"meaning higher wages...benefits.."
"What benefits? What wages? The US minimum wage or that of each state they are in? Then what do you do with all the 'guest' workers with no work?
"not the "race to the bottom" exercised by many produce growers, slaughter house operators, amongst others..."
How many more times do you think you have to type "race to the bottom" before anyone is impressed? Call up your TA, maybe he'll give you a gold star.
Thank you for including me in your unsolicited tirade, Herr mikelong. What did you have for breakfast? Nails and glass pudding? Regardless, every assertion you have made to "defend" tens of millions of illegal immigrants permeating every crevice of this country cannot be supported.
For every "immigrant" you know with "family support," I am aware of ten who flood our emergency rooms for bandaids then leave without paying. The list of welfare-struck illegals demanding to be taken care is endless. The argument is old. We have no specific numbers of illegals here. But we do see the byproduct of hospitals closing, welfare offices shut down, and Southwestern states struggling to stay afloat.
At the very least, this country should give illegals refugee status. That would allow NATO to intervene and Mexico might possibly be resurrected as an economic force.
An international police force could clean up the cartels within a year. Mexico could then be rebuilt as a multinational economic center, preferably with a strong European influence.*
There's no more time for inane platitudes and dull history lessons. People are dying. And Mexican choppers are already hovering over Texas cities. That's called invasion.
*I say European influence, as no country in the Americas, including the U.S., has any economic sense.
The "flood" came following the destruction of the Peso.....the "wave" of people have followed the American business demand for labor....people don't just show up somewhere Sad...you are smarter than this...or so you attempt to demonstrate...
I'm not convinced..however...
How many millions of Mexicans of diverse backgrounds have been spurred to the northern border to work in American factories and warehouses? From there, how many more head further north?
Now, if better work environments were enabled....like a living wage...like job security..then there wouldn't be more migration to the United States...
The Mexican government, however, like the American government, does not largely value labor....and wishes to undermine any labor-based organization...they will try to get it as cheaply as possible....which is why we are in the situation we are in...
Again...when a government shows that it is more inclined to kill its citizens...why would they remain supportive of it?
As Kent State, the Watts Riots, Moody Park, and so many other American tragedies show....the American government will kill its own as well....
"Race to the bottom".....a term that I have never seen anyone use here...which I would like to see you explain...
Prove that you know something...because so far you have failed...
Again, I have answered the further questions you threw in order to avoid answering my own...
foreignpress.....I haven't met an "illegal" yet who is on welfare....however, I know many who are gaining university degrees, and are more productive in American society than many of their legal counterparts....
For "illegals" on welfare...how many legal Walmart employees are equally on public assistance....how many unemployed workers who's jobs were sent to Juarez are on the dole?
If we, as a nation, were truly concerned about the flow of immigration from Mexico, businesses and government agencies who utilize them (to even build border fences) would be held accountable for their actions, and American companies would have to pay extra fees to have goods made in Mexico sold in American markets.....
These goods artificially drop the price of equivalent American products, ensureing more Americans go onto welfare and other public assistance.....
How many Americans are in those hospital waiting rooms that you speak of...with no insurance......I know members of my own family who have been in this condition.... Without the VA, I would be there too....
What did I have for breakfast?
Nourishment evidently.....others have had a lot of hot air.
".....I haven't met an "illegal" yet who is on welfare...."
Yes you have. Some illegals you have met are receiving food stamps, and many have gone to emergency rooms and received free care. Many of them have their kids in public schools they are not paying taxes to support. Others are taking free or subsidized adult classes and receiving other benefits via community or advocacy groups that are the go-between for them.
"If we, as a nation, were truly concerned about the flow of immigration from Mexico, businesses and government agencies who utilize them (to even build border fences) would be held accountable for their actions, and American companies would have to pay extra fees to have goods made in Mexico sold in American markets....."
Oh yeah, illegal aliens violating our borders are really our fault for not implementing socialist economic policies and practicing protectionism.
If only we could cripple our own economy and drive companies overseas entirely there would be no reason for illegals to violate our borders. Brilliant. Why don't we just burn down every building in the US. That way, illegals will have nowhere to live and won't come here...
Sorry Mike, but you're wrong. It's not the destruction of labor unions that are the problem in Mexico, but the endemic corruption. Here in the States, it's much more subtle, so it's hard for a North American to understand, but if you don't have the cash for bribes or familial connections, you're out of luck in Mexico. The poor of Mexico can't even meet their basic needs and that is what allows the drug trade to flourish and causes people to immigrate here.
That, by the way, says good things about how we do things here in the US. People are willing to come here to make a living because they are allowed to, for the most part, make a living.
I agree Led, it is not the destruction of labor unions that causes a problem in Mexico....it is the fact that independent labor groups cannot exist....and the fates of workers are controlled by corrupted official labor unions....
It is the destruction of the American union labor force, through the transmission of their jobs to foreign nations where independent unionization is illegal......this destoys America...and as a former illegal friend once told me, "when there is a recession in the U.S. there is a depression in Mexico."
I don't use my words here...I have only learned from others...
I agree with you concerning the role of cash and status in Mexico....as was true in the Ottoman Empire...and as is true in the United States...money talks..
I agree with you that poverty is boosting the drug trafficking and violence...you say precisely what I have mentioned a bit earlier in this thread...
But, if Mexicans working in Mexico are able to work with their own government to shape change...and not worry about direct/indirect influence on behalf of the foreign corporations that pay off the Mexican government....then much will change...
And if Mexican workers in the United States who wish to work while keeping their national status are given protections from the U.S. government....then wages will rise..and perhaps more Americans who are unemployed would venture into agriculture, or other industries that artificially lowered wages keep them away from....
I am agreement with you Led....I don't know where our disagreement is..
A more interesting question is: How are these illegals taken care of? More welfare services, or "free" medical care?
Here's what's going to happen. Obama, Pelosi, et al, are very eager to get health care passed. Almost too eager. Obama has even put jobs on hold to get this issue resolved (in his favor), despite his comments to the contrary in his State of the Union.
One key to the puzzle is amnesty. Obama/Pelosi see an immediate urgency in giving tens of millions of illegals amnesty. Once amnesty is passed these illegals will then be taxpaying citizens. And that's the key: Taxation. At present, illegals paying into the state and federal budgets is arbitrary at best.
Imagine 15 million more people being forced to pay into the federal coffers. And an additional 15 million people would go a long way toward paying for a federally subsidized health care plan; that's assuming these 15 million illegals don't abuse it. So, first it's health care then amnesty.
Then there's the Boomers. Some are already retiring. Their healthcare needs could be enormous. Medicare is going broke. Social Security is dwindling too quickly. Here come 15 million newly-amnestied illegals to the rescue. In another few years, we'll see amnesty for another 20 million illegals.* And so it goes.
The fact is, the United States is broke. That's another key to this Obama/Pelosi urgency. There is not enough money to handle projected costs to sustain this country over the next 50 years.
One more thing. Obama is merely a mouthpiece. Who is pushing Obama? Likely it's Pelosi and a few other power mongers in Congress, as well as high-level corporate interests. But it's painfully obvious Obama is way over his head.
*The O/P agenda also includes the North American Union. Might as well. We've already incorporated 1/3 of Mexico's population.
Our disagreement is due to, I think, our differences in the nature of labor. Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to lump all workers together into a group. I see workers as individuals with different educational and skill levels.
Furthermore we differ in the proper role of government. I don't wish to seem patronizing, but your belief that the people and the government can work together to overcome corruption and graft is a bit naive. Unlike any other organization that humanity has created, a government can deprive you of liberty or life. No private company or individual can do that without facing criminal charges. Not even the mob.
Since government has that power, agents of the government are able to engage in corruption and graft that would destroy a privately held company or individual. Is it a good idea for a government to behave in such a manner? No. But government is run by humans who tend to see the short term benefits rather than plan for the long term.
Now I do happen to agree that we need to allow the free movement of labor across the border. This would serve two purposes. The first would be to lower the cost of production of goods and services in this country. That would increase the production of goods and services in this country and lower the price of things that we buy every day. By lowering the price of goods and services, we make it easier for people to live. So that's why I disagree with your "living wage" theory. What we need is more of a "living production" theory.
The second purpose would be to indoctrinate our guest workers with the realities of freedom and choice in America, something they would take back home with them. This would increase pressure on the government to end tacit approval of corruption and vice. By breaking the traditional routes to power like familial connections and patronage, the government will be held more responsible to the people and "official" corruption would decrease. This would, in turn, lessen "illegal" immigration to the point where it would not surprise me if we phased out the guest worker program. It would likely take decades, but the likely alternative is civil war in Mexico and probably an occupation by the US military.
No..."taken care of" in this case means having equal protection under U.S. labor laws. They don't need lawyers...LULAC and other organizations already exist to take care of legal suits....
As I mentioned earlier Foreignpress, Home Town Associations and transnational organizations like the Frente Indigena Organizacion Binacional...or like Oaxacalifornia...are taking care of people..... Support exists..but the local, state, and federal American governments need to recognize that this labor force is not going anywhere....There is too much U.S. demand for illegal Mexican labor....
I would grant amnesty....as Reagan did.... It would only benefit the workers... Illegal immigrants already pay taxes....they pay as much as most citizens...
The only difference would be property taxes...but a great many Americas don't own land to have taxed...
Whenever an "illegal" buys groceries, clothes, or gas...taxes are being paid...his or her purchases are keeping the American economy moving..
As for income taxes, the employers typically deducts taxes as in most other cases....but the undocumented won't be able to collect anything...any refund or social security deductions because of their status...so the American government actually can get free money...
Does this reflect every individual undocumented resident...no....but I argue most fall into this category...
And of those paychecks...how much unemployment deductions are made..that will not be collected because the worker cannot qualify for these benefits?
Arbitrary? I don't think so....
In social security taxes alone, illegal immigrants pay over 9 billion dollars...and they won't get any of it back for themselves...
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/tax … axes_N.htm
"The real question is how many of them pay more than they owe. There are undoubtedly hundreds of thousands of people in that situation," Ford said." (William Ford-economist from Middle Tennessee State University)
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/19/busin … egals.html
As usual, the problem is with welfare. State sponsored welfare is inherently unjust and will always cause contention in a society. Rather than give people the freedom to choose which causes and charities they will support, the government arbitrarily decides who will get support and for what reason. Actually they don't arbitrarily choose who gets support and who doesn't, the political powers that be give that money away in exchange for political support. In the US that means a vote.
Mike, would you support a push to disenfranchise people who take welfare. If not, how do you protect the productive members of society and keep people from choosing to go on the dole instead of working? Because sooner or later, those on the dole will outnumber those that produce. What happens then?
Helping the poor is the problem and protecting the rich is the answer. Incredible.
Ralph, why do you assume that every rich person is an SOB whose only purpose in life is to sacrifice poor children to the altar of evil Capitalism?
How do you square that with the fact that Americans are the most charitable people in the world. Even in the midst of our own economic troubles, private citizens have sent money abroad to help those devastated by earthquakes in countries as diverse as Turkey, Haiti and Chile. What makes you think that Americans aren't equally charitable with their own fellow citizens. You must have a very low opinion of your fellow American. I wonder if you know anything about Americans at all. Incredible.
Is this what you mean by the spirit of charity in America?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ik4f1dR … r_embedded
You might do better to not quote a Center for Progress. We all know Progressive institutions lie and cheat. You also forgot this little thing:
You also might consider the following pictures:
http://hubpages.com/hub/Compare-Garbage … auguration
You attempt to smear people associated with the Tea Party is pathetic Ralph. You can't fight them with rhetoric, so now you descend to outright lies. It's interesting to note that this supposed incident occurred only recently. In fact many of the posts around the Internet are only hours old. Might I remind you that the Dems already got caught once lying about Palin and her supposed divorce. You'll have to do better than to find a single solitary incident to convince most people Ralph.
Like I said...a term that I have only seen myself use....
Can you not read?
Take off your hood!
What you said was that you hadn't seen "anyone" use it, which is obviously incorrect. Aside from that, this bit of your super-secret elite superior radical leftist lexicon has indeed been mentioned before. Sorry if that makes you feel just a little less special.
So, again, you cannot answer to any point I have raised...
I am glad that you so openly brandy about your ignorance...
Take a bow!
Yes Sad.....workers holding collective bargaining is socialism.
They should unite - all over the world - right?
Unions aren't the answer too much corruption. Oversight in buisness and severe penalties for companies and owners who are excessively greedy and don't pay fair and livable wages. Owners can make as much money as they want aslong as they pull their employees up as well.
By the way, the US has chosen to move all the Volkwagon, and Kodak plants and factories to mexico where the labor doesn't cost as much.
There, now I have given you some ammo, attack attack.
Just annex Mexico then no one will be slipping over the border any more.
Girl, I was just joking. By the way all the Mexicans are coming here so we wouldn't be fighting there we would be fighting here in the states.
Hey, I've heard stupider things spouted around here in dead seriousness, I'm sure you have too.
I don't see a reason to fight them here, I mean it's not as if they're violent or anything, La Raza being a notable exception. All most Mexicans want is the chance to make an honest living and send a little back home to help out the family. What amazes me is that we're one of the few countries where that is possible.
Led...we are not one the few countries where this is possible... However, we are the only first world nation directly bordering a second/third world nation...
With this said...
La Raza....... There are small fractions who have agendas that mimic the Aryan Brotherhood or the KKK....but I call this a response mechanism, like the Black Panthers...
People, as I did once, throw up El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan and they think they have a conspiracy......but this is not the case... Nor is it towards LULAC or MALDEF......rather, I look at the aggressor they fight against in the publications of Samuel Huntington, as seen through his article "The Hispanic Challenge."
With this having been said, when I was in Mexico the last time I observed the Humvees, M-16's, and vast variety of other American arms and materiels.....and their military leadership and special units are trained and indoctrinated in the United States in the School of the Americas...now called the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation....with star alumni...check out the list for yourselves....and see what they are connected to...
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/mexico … _3000.html
But, Mexico suffers from an illegal immigration problem too...as Honduran, Salvadoran, Guatamalan and other refugees travel north to escape the fun that this same American tax payer funded "school" et al have made for them...
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebo … p-honduras
Maybe not Mike, but we have one of the more integrated pools of immigrants. Our Muslims for example aren't rioting like they have in France or Germany from time to time over the last few years. Unlike the French or Germans, we offer a path to citizenship few nations can match. I think the US operates under similar principles, but I'm not sure about that.
Racist is racist. No excuses. You either believe we are all human beings with certain inalienable rights or you don't. The former being an American belief, the latter being un-American. La Raza, Black Panthers, KKK, they're all the same, screw them. There is no excuse to hate someone because of the color of their skin, nationality or sex. I do believe it is entirely permissible to hate someone for their actions, however. Just not because of who they were born.
In a way Hunnington has a point. Unlike other minorities, the Hispanics have been told that they don't need to learn the language or the customs of America. Nothing could be further from the truth. Only by learning the language can any minority keep from becoming a second class citizen. Only by adopting the culture of the US can Hispanics keep from becoming a second class citizen.
That being said Hunnington is a racist who sees white "culture", whatever that means, as being superior to all others. In that he mistakenly identifies Anglo-Saxon, Protestantism to be linchpins of the definition of an American. He's full of crap. To be an American all it takes is a belief in the ideals outlines in the Declaration. You have to believe that all people are created equal with certain inalienable rights. Among these are the rights to life, liberty and property. That is the basis of our prosperity and that is what has held us together for over two centuries.
"La Raza....... There are small fractions who have agendas that mimic the Aryan Brotherhood or the KKK....but I call this a response mechanism, like the Black Panthers..."
LOL! There is no bottom to this lefty pot. White supremecist scumbags are just scumbags, but other racist scumbags are really the fault of the white racist scumbags. Come on out and say what you are waltzing around.
Sorry Led, I forgot about the question that I told you I would respond to...
You asked me,
"Mike, would you support a push to disenfranchise people who take welfare. If not, how do you protect the productive members of society and keep people from choosing to go on the dole instead of working?"
I want to understand what you are asking me.... Do you mean to ask if I would support the elimination or cut back of welfare benefits?
No, I don't.
Productive.......there are several ways of defining this word. I would require all businesses who offshore or outsource their businesses, but still sell their wares in the U.S. marketplace to pay additional import fees...with these funds going directly to programs that benefit those Americans who were laid off.
I look at the GM plant here in Van Nuys...the empty buildings...with nothing to replace it... I look to the all but absent aerospace industry... Our economic pillars were taken down, and the roof has partially collapsed because nothing was put up in their place.... The incentive to move...especially to another nation, needs to be eliminated. If they want American markets they should have to do more than have a corporate office here....and then there's Halliburton off in the Caymans...what taxes have they paid? How "productive" have they been for the United States people...aside from personal profits..
These increased prices for so many goods and services will bring back some competitiveness to the local level.
Going back to something TK/Sad wrote, I have not yet someone who was undocumented, or had been formerly, who was on foodstamps or welfare.
My first experience with undocumented persons was through the raging of morons like Rush Limbaugh (who I used to follow) and through a certain friend of mine... His father is a lawyer, as he is now.... When we were in high school I would go over to his house...and they had an undocumented Mexican woman living in their home. She cooked their food, cleaned their home, and did what they told her to do....how much they paid her, I don't know...
But this man and his son (my friend) would argue fervently against illegal aliens...and supported loudly proposition 187 and other anti-illegal legislation and rhetoric...
Hypocrites...like many others who call out against these people...
Another friend of mine recently graduated from UCLA. While she attended school she also worked as an inhome attendant for elderly American citizens. She continues to work feverishly to get legalized, pays all her taxes. Her medical care was, as for any student of any institution of higher learning, covered through student fees..hence she had access to UCLA health care...
Three of my Huitzil's current roommates at UCLA are undocumented...none are on foodstamps or welfare...and each of them, contrary to the stereotype, are from financially well off families from much farther south than Mexico......don't let the blond hair and blue eyes fool you....
You missed my point. My point was that if you accept welfare, you don't get to vote until you're off the dole.
I understand that you feel for the poor and downtrodden, but I don't think you understand the impact of some of your proposed measures. The reason so many companies have moved and there is nothing to take their place is because people cannot hire Americans in manufacturing positions and expect to stay in business. I don't get how to show you that raising the costs of goods and services hurts people, it doesn't help them.
If you raised duties on imports it wouldn't bring those companies back to the US because you haven't addressed the reason they left in the first place. All you'd do is ensure that they wouldn't do business in the US and that would hurt everyone all over the country. It's one of those feel good "stick it to the pigs" ideas that is so destructive among the left.
Also you may have never met someone who was illegal and getting welfare, neither have I, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. People, for example, get their identity stolen every day. You can't expect me to believe the government doesn't get scammed by illegals. Look at how much Medicare fraud there is.
Also I believe I've said before that most Mexicans come here to send money back home or to become citizens. I am in no way opposed to any of that. What I am opposed to is allowing these people in just to put them on welfare, get them dependent on the government and artificially increase the vote to a particular politician. If you don't understand a culture or the language, but are given welfare benefits, what incentive is there to better yourself? Your friends are exceptional people, but you and I both know that not everyone is immune to bribery.
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