Whats taught in school, gay rights, abortion, in God we trust, and other issues like these, should not be left up to just Christians alone to solve.
Christians, Hebrews, and Muslims each should have strong thoughts on these issues. Can we work together to solve these problems, Though we each believe differently concerning God Almighty.
How about the ones who think the idea of a god is just plain ridiculous?
Do they get a say as well?
I believe not, since the majority of Americans believe in God.
So - those who do not believe in a god should not get a say?
And - I guess the majority are Christian - so why would the Muslims get a say?
Kind of makes a mockery of your original post wouldn't you agree?
That is pure assumption on your part, and the very suggestion that an entire group of free thinking Americans should not have a voice in the way their children are educated because the do not worship God is insane.
It's funny how folks will respond to something controversial on here but they won't respond to something funny. The bible says a merry heart works like a medicine but it seems no one will take their medicine these days.
Oh - that was a joke about non-believers? In that case - LOL
You have the hypocritical, holier-than-thou, right wing christian down pat. Good one.
Sorry - I thought you were serious when you said that. My mistake.
No, I'm serious. I posted a funny story the other day and no one responded but you talk about something like this on here and folks come out the wood work, just like a bunch of roaches. lol
I only take offense to having the words "right wing" and "Christian" in the same sentence. I am not a Christian, but I AM right wing. Please don't lump us all together. Read my comment below to get a better idea of what I'm talking about.
I was not talking to you. I was talking to the hypocritical, holier-than-thou, right wing Christian.
Sorry you are offended that there are right wing Christians out there.
I am sure you can come to the same right wing opinions without needing an invisible super being to speak into your head.
Just as a matter of interest - what is your problem with gay marriage? More to the point - what has it go to do with you what other people do?
https://www.cia.gov/library/publication … os/us.html
Protestant 51.3%, Roman Catholic 23.9%, Mormon 1.7%, other Christian 1.6%, Jewish 1.7%, Buddhist 0.7%, Muslim 0.6%, other or unspecified 2.5%, unaffiliated 12.1%, none 4% (2007)
Guess that adds up to a majority...
OK. I will research also. Remember though that 24.7 percent of statistics are made up on the spot!
I thought it was 41.3% of statistics that were made up on the spot?
By the CIA? ---- OH yeah, well I guess they would be unreliable!
I'm not saying for one moment that all those listed as 'Christians' are actually practising their faith, indeed I doubt that you could find 10% of Americans who are actually real believers living for Christ, however the dear old KJV tells us in John 3:16 that WHOSOEVER believes is counted as 'saved' to Christ.... so however you look at things, there are a whole heap of Christians who vote and have rights to dictate how their society should be run.
As in all situations, those who disagree have the right to leave if they cannot beat their opposition at the ballot box.
I did that when I left the UK in 1986, when it was obvious that the socialists were going to regain control.
But many of them are not practicing Christians, I would say most... I made that statistic up.
Fifteen percent of Americans are atheists... that's one in six.
I would argue that they just say they do to avoid confrontation.
bigcountry12577, moral issues is a very complicated issue in the US bscause of too much freedom and this one you specifically mentioned christian, i can feel the heat that this post will generate. hwoever I believe that every body's hand must be on desk to get this solved
I think that what we need in this country is a willingness to listen to the other side, regardless of what the argument is, and for each side to present their argument with the full understanding that the majority rules, and that their argument may not in fact, be represented in the result.
Typical. The problem is not what it taught in public schools, but public schools themselves. Rather than fight over a "public option" in school, let parents choose how their kids are educated. If they want to send their kids to a school in which creationism is taught, let them. Their kids will be the ones to benefit or suffer from the choices their parents make. Meanwhile poorer performing schools will suffer by having parents pull their kids out, so that will provide an incentive for schools to actually, you know, educate kids instead of acting as giant retirement benefits for unionized teachers who can't seem to educate our kids even though we've spend more money each year per pupil since 1970.
Hmmm how about we pass laws that do not establish any religious viewpoint.
Morals.. morals change from generation to generation. even religions change over time or eventually implode. thirty years ago it was morally wrong to live together, wear bikni's and listen to anything other than Lawerence Welk. if you didnt do any of these things you were a heathen. a Godless Commie or even worse.. a godless Commie heathen Democrat LOL. okay I almost forgot that being french was worse than that at the time.
things change. I dont want what others consider to be morals. I can figure things out on my own thanks. Hence Freedom of religion. Free will and individuality.
It doesn't have to be left up to Christians. I happen to be an atheist who does not believe in gay marriage, who happens to believe that the word God used in the pledge of allegiance is fine, who happens to believe that abortion is wrong.
When we put a religious element in, IT is what gets lost in the debate. Morality does not have to be defined by one's religion, and moral acts do not need to be driven by it.
Christians need to get one thing through in their heads. No matter how many times you shove the Bible in my face you will not convince me. No matter how many times you tell me I'm going to hell you will not convince me. No matter how many examples you throw at me you will not convince me. So stop trying to.
If you want to have an honest debate on an issue, have one on the merits of the argument in favor of what you believe is right. But leave the religious aspect out of the argument. It only serves to cloud the real reason something you are arguing against is wrong. If you say "It's wrong because the Bible says so," then you have taken the lazy approach to explaining why it really is wrong, and your argument is lost.
Do you see my point people would rather get mad and fuss and fight then to laugh till you cry? You can call me a bigot and that's your opinion and I'm fine with that. I'm not mad are you?
So - you basically said that any one who does not believe in God should not be allowed to have any input on what is taught in school, and a bunch of other things that you think are to do with "morals."
And you do not expect this to result in an argument?
Plus - You do not think you are a bigot?
And are now accusing some one who called you on this as being mad?
You certainly are a genuine Kristian then - I will give you that. Start a fight and then accuse others of being mad at you. ;lol:
Sorry I missed your hilarious thread, although - I suspect that we might have slightly different ideas of what is and is not funny.
plus he called people roaches. Don't forget that.
As I recall you referred to yourself as a Buddhist, maybe in your next life you will turn into a fly or something. JK JK
I am not mad. I am only pointing out the obvious.
The thought or lack there of that leeds you to believe that following the teachings of the christian or christian like faiths are the only opinions with merit is bigotry
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.
If what you quoted is the definition of what a bigot is, then we must all be guilty of bigotry. the only difference is some are more vocal then others. Do you see my point we each have our own beliefs and opinions.
By the way I glad your not mad and I enjoy visiting with you and each and everyone of yall that will read this post.
Well I will give you credit for being a Christian that understand etiquette.
And yes I agree I think the term Bigot can be applied to everyone myself included.
I believe that in many polls people will list the religion they grew up with, not whether or not they still believe or practics.
So...you didn't want people to respond to this thread?
It is not up to Christians alone - everyone in the USA has the right to vote and/or participate in school board meetings & policy-making. If they choose not to attend or to not have their voices heard, they have nothing to complain about!
The majority of americans do not take those polls. Numbers are used to falsify information every day, 64% say we should have tougher immigration laws and 68% say we need mexican workers even if they aren't legal. Whoever takes the poll phrases the question to get the numbers to support their view.
Everybody who strongly believes in something is entitled to, but history teaches us that we all suffer for the decisions made by the noisiest of the opinionated few. (not indicating any one in specific) truth is We all lose out when somebody gives up any civil liberty, and whoever says we need to give the choice to a select group might look up the worst examples in human history. The Nazi party started with some guys around a table talking about "improving things" to a specific way that the majority thought was right. That didn't go too well.
Which is why we need to end the public school system in the US. School boards have apparently degenerated into factions fighting to indoctrinate our kids. Is this what we really want? How does this educate our kids in the history an philosophy of America and ensure that their generation has it better than those that have come before?
Totally agree, we all need to set the kids straight before this generation resorts to hopelessness. (many of them seem misguided)
I'm not so sure it's hopeless. Kids today aren't too different from when I was a kid. Most of them know they're being fed crap in school, that's why test scores and graduation rates have declined over the years. I think organizations like the 9/12 project have great potential to pick up where the schools have failed. I've been considering some sort of community program that will, hopefully, partner with the schools around here as a sort of extracurricular activity to teach kids more about what it means to be an American.
What I've found working with kids is that they desperately want to know the why of things. I'm personally convinced that's why so many kids are suicides. Without some sort of foundation or reason to live, some kids choose not to. Part of the problem is that parents have mostly abdicated their duties as teachers to their kids, but that might just be a personal prejudice from the types of families I've worked with in the past.
The hopeless statement isn't aimed at them more of an obsevation in agreement with what you are saying. We have given them so little understanding, that my fear is they are all making the modern media, celebs, and whatever they feel they can claim, more important than anything we try to teach them. I see a lot of artificial respect from kids these days. Nothing seems important except for the new blackberry or whatever the next Lady Gaga fad is. (Or whoever)
you know I meant what I said about Christians alone, but as the threading went on I realized that most folks want to dwell on the negative or find something negative about anything. I was just kidding about the roach and fly thing I just wanted to see what people would say and your the only one that picked up on it.
No actually I think we all make it seem worse than it is, but potentially the people we allow to monopolize the control will destroy it. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. And we can improve a great many things by focusing on the similarities in our views first and then working out the differences as friends.
what do you have on your mind? What is a Taoist, is that what Steven Seigal is. Awesome fighting!
The difference between someone who follows the Tao or "the way" and some one who follows Christ is not our difference, I like Christs teachings. Steven Segall is an actor and yes not too shabby. What I have on my mind is that we all have some idea that a change is needed, but our views are all resisting one another's so perhaps an agreement on what should change as opposed to who should lead?
Taoism is a chinese contemporary of Budhhism with an emphasis on the diminishing of ones personal desires to be more beneficial to others. The Tao Te Ching and other materials on the subject are often linked with Zen. As they are supporting systems of philosophy, The central focus being to understand ones self, in relation to existence.
Personally I find the Tao as well as Zen to be very useful in "stilling the mind". As a Christian, I believe those two philosophies help not only understand Creation, but bring you closer to understanding the mind of God.
Kids are smarter than most people give them credit for. Something happens to adults as they get older, they forget that they were ever kids and forget how they once saw the world. Besides media has little influence on kids. They're much more likely to be influenced by their parents or their friends than some "media" type.
Perhaps it's because of the types of families I've worked with, but I don't see why kids should automatically give someone respect just because they're older. Respect is something you earn by giving your word and keeping it. There's no other way to gain respect.
By the way, what's wrong with Lady Gaga? I kind of like her music. It'll be interesting to see if she can pull a Madonna and reinvent herself when the need arises or if she'll just be another fad.
Respect for the parents is a prerequisite to learning all, not just some, of what is there to be taught. And Lady Gaga is not the issue, but if these kids are too caught up with stupid fads, they use them to be cruel to each other. And respect your elders was good enough for me. But I am referring to manners. Without which they cannot succeed.
On a philosophical note try rather than discerning the creators mind, to find the harmony of that indivisible silence, and there you may well experience the creator. (all that is becoming springing forth from emptiness that is not truly empty) I have lots of hubs about it that you might like.
I have to disagree with that. I'd say a majority of parents are clueless and, in the end, don't want to deal with the "hassles" of parenting. In the past, I'd agree with you. But there seems to have been some sort of generational disconnect with the so-called "me" generation. Much like the crop of radicals in our government today, few people realize the implications of the baby boomer outlook and how it has affected the social fabric of the nation.
As for censorship, you're correct. I'd even agree with you about keeping young eyes of inappropriate stuff, although I also think that can be a teaching moment. Like I used to tell "my" kids: "You can learn from the mistakes of others or be the mistake others learn from." What it takes is someone flexible enough to recognize a "teachable" moment and have earned a kids trust to the point that they accept what you say.
I thought that it was some kind of martial art that is why I brought up Steven.
I humbly believe that what is missing is not found in any religion. It is not the fault of the parents or the teachers. I blame the social acceptance of the lowest common denominator. How can anyone raise the bar when some of the most braindead dribble passes for entertaining. We must use the wisdom that is available to everyone to make it available to a generation who does not care about common decency anymore. That is harder to solve, how do you make people care about other people?
Religion is the wrong word I think. Some sort or moral belief system is what is missing. Historically that has been the province of religion and/or philosophy. Now the way a religion or philosophy transmits its message is important. Like the Burning Times or the Gulag, religion and philosophy can go horribly, horribly wrong. Usually because they break some sort of natural law, like trying to force people to believe the same dogma or philosophical view or something equally impossible.
I have to admit that I'm a bit curious as to what you consider "raising the bar". I am under the impression that we'd have a lot of areas of congruence and areas in which we'd disagree. Likewise, define wisdom. Again, I'm sure that our definitions would be wildly different.
As for making people care about others, the short answer is that you can't make people, people have to decide to be decent towards one another. Personally I'm a Christian and it's a central tent of Christianity to consider all other human beings as a brother or sister. That idea has serious ramifications. Why I believe that way is probably personal to me, although others may feel the same way. But my way isn't the only way to reach Truth. At leas as far as we're able to discern Truth. I'm not entirely sure that humans, not being omniscient, can really understand Truth, the best we can do is come to a close approximation to it. That belief of mine, too, has certain ramifications.
Try believing that we had better learn to be responsible, Christianity teaches many things but like all traditions, If nobody owns the mess, nobody cleans it up. Wisdom in this case I define as The understandings of our experiences, and how we prepare others for those experiences is important. Which is why respecting those who have come before us is crucial. The blind lean on the wisdom of those who can see. Such as it should be for children who do not know the dangers out here. We have that obligation, as parents or teachers or whatever we are. To prepare the kids to not be kids. It is a process of maturation and teaching compassion is just a part of it. We shouldn't say its elective. It will never matter unless we stress the importance of it. Raising the bar means not just ambling along without a course, Self discipline is gained by following a path that has markers along the way. I do not mean over structuring things. simply having a direction is good so that the fads are not all that there is. (As is often the case) Children need guidance and not from their friends. From wise people. Hopefully wisdom is not so wildly different for different people. It is unwise to let a child decide everything for themself until they are mature enough to be responsible for they're actions
I guess I'm not as sensitive to the problem as you are because of my belief in natural law. We can either live according to it and experience societal harmony or we can live in opposition to it and experience societal conflict. The fact that we're experiencing so much societal conflict right now should tell us that we're on the wrong track. I think that's clear to both of us.
What I'm most curious about is are we congruent on the issue of natural law.
As an aside, I agree 100% that history is the best teacher. What I don't think most people have is the philosophical framework to correctly understand the lessons history teaches us.
That is why we learn wisdom. And as for natural law, we need only see fish in water to get the big picture. We like they are in a system, it has many perils and many of us are just like those fish. Never too aware and swimming towards calamity. The natural law is not really natural, though we call it that. It is what is but it is a misuse of the water in my opinion. We eat later what we discard now, (in the system we live in) and so the laws we have broken will fix the natural part eventually. (we probably won't like it much) as for the philosophical framework to view history? We define the actions of the past on either their merit to humanity or some mechanism to teach hoe the past was for those to whom it was the present. I have no great love of slice and serve history lessons. Because of that fact. Here is a history lesson yesterday as the result of my not turning off my coffeepot it no longer functions. (which is unfortunate)
Sorry but the fish thing seems to be more ecological nonsense. One thing that leaning too far on ecology does is ignore the natural creativity and inventiveness of humanity. We may live in a system like a fish, but unlike a fish we can understand the system and bend it to our will. At least those of us who comprehend it are able to do so.
BC, Buddhism is an interesting religion. For example, it's entirely reasonable for a Buddhist to follow the teachings of an enlightened person, if they choose to do so. By Buddhist lights, Jesus was such an enlightened person. So you'd be following Buddhist teachings by following the teachings of Christ.
Consider the idea that Buddhism teaches all life to be suffering. Yet the whole point of life is to reach enlightenment or Truth and enjoy nirvana after death. Consider the teachings of Christ. The world is full of sin and wickedness. The whole point of life is to live the Truth as explained by Christ and enjoy heaven after death.
Looking at it that way, there is little difference between the core beliefs of Buddhism and Christianity.
And understanding truth is only important with the designations of conventional truth, or ultimate truth. To discern the truth of a situation works this way as well. We had better learn the difference between what people believe is true and what is actually true. The truth that we experience is far different than any truth we are told about. And while it is difficult to convey has, has merit. The truth of the flavor of a strawberry has little to do with good or bad these are just subjective.
You might be interested in the German terms Erfahrung and Wissen. One means to learn by doing and the other to learn by theoretical knowledge. I first came across the terms here:
http://www.earlytorise.com/2009/12/14/h … asy-2.html
In fact I'd argue that you see Wissen all over the place in forums like this. Most people know what they know and don't really think about what they know. The hold too many assumptions and have ceased to question the assumptions they hold.
That, I think, is what holds people back from understanding ultimate truth, as you put it.
Invariably truth changes. And conventional understanding fails, This wisdom through being truly "open" and experiencing is for me the only way to truth at all. Theories based on that idea are okay at need but eventually we just need the right tools or to put down the tools to experience it. Lao Tzu wrote that the "Tao only manifests when we stop using our tools to chip away at it" Arguing that it was in the absolute present tense only. Science is slowly learning this as well.
No. Truth is eternal, what changes is our understanding of it. Would you agree that in order to have societal harmony we need a prohibition against the murder of other people? One of the truths of a harmonious society is that you cannot murder other people. If you try to set up a society in such a manner, it will be riven with conflict. Prisons are a good example of this.
Personally I don't put much faith in "conventional understanding". Like I said, most people don't challenge their assumptions and it is the assumptions we make that can steer us to Truth or away from it.
You hit the nail on the head when you brought up "How can anyone raise the bar when some of the most braindead dribble passes for entertaining"
Look at the movies these days you cannot take a child to the movies anymore for all the language, sex, and drug use, just to name a few. Look at the movies made back in the mid 1900's hardly any bad language, it was all based on acting and story line. Take the movie cat on a hot tin roof if it was remade today do you think it would be as good as the first or would the story line and acting get lost in all of the Hollywood activism of today?
Yes, Looney toons is great but even that has been politically corrected.
political correctness is the whiny few, something we forget until we have no right to speak freely. (see where I am headed with this?) that is the danger with giving up everyone having a say. And yes The censorship falls under the same heading so we have a rough road as far as policing content, versus banning information. I do not believe in censorship but I do believe in keeping little eyes off the inapropriate stuff.
I'm a 33 yr old white male I have not lived long enough to own a mess as I'm sure you yourself would agree. However I am getting older and with a couple of rugrats of my own I'm becoming more aware of the things going on in our country that I think is a bunch of crap, things that was started some 40 or so years ago. I believe that We the People should have a bigger say on what goes on in our country instead of allowing the high and mighty politicians to dictating.
I feel strongly about that too. (I am also 33) We have to try to understand that the politicians hide behind the system. We have no individuals to blame, instead we call it "the government" We give up rights and give up having a say. (like we usually do) then in the big picture we are extra doomed. Nice meeting you by the way.
you to you seem to be a deep thinker and an intellectual kinda feller. Are you full fledged Buddhist? If so do you believe in God we trust if not tell me why.
The God that we imagine or have written about is not what I believe god is. I personally believe that most people have ideas about God that do not seem to measure up. The bible is a great way to start for many. But to seek God we must let go of our ideas and actually discover. I grew up believing in many ways what the bible taught and now with different eyes the bible teaches differently. The Zen aspect and the Taoist aspect and having spent thirteen years as a person who hated god. Through Zen I learned that that was not the real God. (The one I imagined) and so in the Tao or The way of things. I found faith in the big real everywhere creating always kind of being that God must actually be. (but the bible doesn't quite cover it for me.) not that it doesn't have truth in it but its a tradition, handed down and not experienced anymore.
or does it represent you in your country? I want where I live to have respect and show respect for God.
A lot of that would depend on your definition of God. One way of looking at it is this way. Do you think that a finite being like a human can understand something infinite like God?
I am damn hard to offend buddy, And we should teach every kid about every way so that God can put them where it wants them to start from. (does that make sense?) so they can find their way from the starting gate to where they should be. I meet people who say "Oh I am a baptist but I dont believe what they do" and I say so switch to the one that helps you connect to what you believe god is"
How can you respect something that does not exist?
Pretty pathetic God anyway. It needs respect?
Surely the last 2000 years should have taught you something? I mean - I see you harking back to the good old early 1900s with WWI, the depression and segregation. Just exactly what was so good about them?
What exactly do you want bought back? 'Cause the soppy movies with no swearing went along with some pretty bad stuff. Still - denial - that is the problem with believing the nonsense you believe. It rots your brain.
I cant say if they "full fledged me" But they respect me. And when I was in to witchcraft they respected me. and shamanism, they did too. I have been many religions and they all fail to nail it. (even the christian ones) or we would only need one religion. maybe there are so many so people of different levels of understanding have a place to see it from.
A 'Moral' issue is by definition an individual issue or family issue. There are many different 'answers' to moral problems and no one answer is right. So one the one hand, I disagree witht he premise - on the other hand, I agree that churches working together can be a powerful force for good - or evil.
We have a secular government in the United States. Not associated with any church or belief. The function of good government is to find answers which help society work without imposing unfairly on a minority. Particularly a religious minority. I wrote a hub on this.
In a lot of areas, churches work together in outreach programs sharing resources and serving the needs of man. Jesus fed the hungry and healed the sick before he attended to the spirit. (After feeding them and healing them, he had their attention.) I have to feel that attending to moral issues is a one-on-one function rather than a group or sociatal function.
No Doug, we have a government which butts in what should be personal issues. When the government injected itself into schools, it inevitably set up a conflict between people because the government can only go one way and that means that some people are going to lose out. Government intervention always means less choice. Remember when AT&T was the only phone company? If you were dissatisfied with their service, you were out of luck because they were the only choice. For most people it's the same with the educational system and might be the same with health care soon.
Please - tell me you are joking. AT& T was broken up BY the government! They 'butted' in and consumers benefited enormously.
Public schools are paid for by tax dollars and run by the government.. What were you expecting, public schools run by Franciscian Monks?
The government 'butted in' in the South and said you can't have a segregated school system. The courts have not 'butted in' except when a suit was brought against a state or district or school for attempting to indoctronate students in religion. The courts have ruled that infringes on the rights of parents who don't subscribe to the beleifs (invariably christian conservative) that they are trying to introduce. If you don't like that then it's NOT the only choice.
There are Catholic schools, Baptist schools, private non-religous schools, charter schools, home-schooling from a religious or secular computer-based curriculum. You can't find a time in ALL American history when you had this many choices..
why do you care what people respect
why do you care what people worship
but you already knew that
I assume you are talking to me?
I genuinely don't care what people worship and respect.
I do care when they tell me they want everyone to respect what they respect and think that anyone who does not worship what they worship should not be entitled to an opinion.
Or are you too lazy to read the thread?
It's amazing how out of over 309,998,200 people in the USA and they still point fingers at the Christians and cry and you clowns feed into the hype and garbage and refuse to actually OUTSIDE of your manure filled box
PERFECT EXAMPLE is that the polls showed nearly 70% of the American people opposed gay marriage.
Yet the pro gay is saying its a religious conspiracy
It's time to grow up and stop burning each other ... you people act like you have a say in ANYTHING.
the majority of states oppose gay marriage and one traitor of a judge took it upon himself to insinuate that it was RELIGIOUS - Come on people it is spelled JUSTICE and not JUST US!
the left and right will NEVER GET ALONG again ...
better chance to see the New Black Panther party and the KKK becoming best of friends ...
morals come from character. they aren't exclusive to any one set of people or belief.
Sexuality is a MORAL ISSUE - real people of faith accept the Doctrine of their chosen Holy Book's and where it takes a stand on Promiscuous sex - which just so happens is not JUST Christian.
Homosexually active behavior is a crime which is actually punishable by death in most of the Islamic countries.
Keep twisting facts to look like God fearing people are the ones who you want to pretend are screwed up - when it is the complacency of moral values which are pulling the world into the cesspool of animal behaviors.
When God was taken from society as a whole we got increased gay expansion, more murder, more illegal activities which people think should be made legal since they came around to legalize sodomy.
It's getting worse and worse EVERY YEAR - moral degenerates have this world on a course headed toward DESTRUCTION!
But we are not discussing Islamic countries. We are talking about America. Are you proposing that America adopt laws similar to those in Islamic countries?
How about the young couple recently publicly stoned to death in Afghanistan for eloping?
I thought we were fighting so that we are NOT governed by the Taliban here. Did I miss something?
Now, see... I kind of think that stoning someone to death is immoral. Maybe it's me.
I say, keep all religion out of all public schools and all private schools that aren't specifically schools associated with one religion or another. Being a moral, good, person has nothing to do with religion. One of the most dangerous things in the world is that religious people won't/can't believe that people not believing what their religion teaches cannot possibly be "moral".
I used to know someone who was a foster mother. We both observed how strange it was that children who had been abused (and I mean REALLY abused) so often had parents who faithfully attended one church or another every Sunday. Our theory was that these scumbags hoped to be forgiven by their God if they went to church every week. Thanks - but I'll take American public schools and the kids who attend them to religion-tainted schools any day.
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