What's it going to take?

1. 56

   Sab Ohposted 15 years ago

   To finally get serious about this issue?
   
   
   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36331490/ns/us_news-life/
   
   
   It's not a good situation for anyone on either side of the border.

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      ErictheGatorposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      The illegal immigration problem has been put on the back burner for way too long and the problem just gets worse. Our government needs to secure our border and protect US citizens even if it means putting troops along our border with Mexico. American safety first then immigration reform.

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   2. 60

      Ohmaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Doing something to prevent this kind of tragedy is long overdue in The U.S.
      We keep turning a blind eye to our problems on the Mexican border and it will come back to bite us in the nether regions.

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   3. 0

      kimberlyslyricsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      YIKES, getting serious no doubt

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2. 68

   TheGlassSpiderposted 15 years ago

   Strange, that link took me to an article about the death of the Polish president? But it looks as though this is supposed to be about immigration between the US and Mexico...
   
   
   Either way, I was going to say: Get serious about it? Sab Oh...that might be too much like work!

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3. 68

   TheGlassSpiderposted 15 years ago

   Okay, well I think I found the proper article. And that really sucks. As a matter of fact, that completely deflated my good mood. *grumble*
   
   Although, you are right to share it, Sab Oh...Thanks.

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4. 60

   Jonathan Jancoposted 15 years ago

   Until we stop using Mexico as our deregulated dumping ground for lousy American business that can't compete in a sophisticated market, they're going to be coming here in droves.

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   1. 56

      Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      ..............unbelievable
      
      
      
      That kind of 'blame the US' crap makes me very sympathetic to the 'line up the tanks along the border' crowd. It really does.

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      1. 60

         Doug Hughesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Th fact is - NAFTA never did inything to ensure fair wages or working conditions. The wages factories offer aren't enough for the Mexicans to survive on. Ross Perot was right about the 'sucking sound' of business and jobs... And so the envronment in Mexico is ripe for corruption and violence.
         
         If we want conditions on the Southern border to look more like conditions on our Northern border, we have to see business and commerce also advance there.

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         1. 61

            Padrinoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            We all know that corruption and violence never existed in Mexico until NAFTA!
            
            Ross Perot is loonier than the octomom!

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            1. 0

               cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               
               
               that's pretty loony!

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5. 0

   sneakorocksolidposted 15 years ago

   We need to close the border and keep it closed! The only way it will ever get better is if they stay there and force their government to get a handle on their own discrimination issues between rich and the poor. It is not our problem and as long as we keep letting this happen the corruption will only continue.

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   1. 56

      Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Ok, not that sympathetic...

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6. 60

   mikelongposted 15 years ago

   It's funny how Sab Oh calls out for "what is it going to take"...and when someone puts a viewpoint that he/she/it doesn't agree with it comes down to personal attacks...
   
   Non-Governmental Organizations who are doing the crucial social/political/economic work where governments of both Mexico and the U.S. fail:
   -Oaxacalifornia
   -F.I.O.B.
   
   Ongoing issues north and south of the border that continues to spur both economic/political instability and undocumented immigration
   -far from adequate labor rights
   -political corruption at the hands of big business
   -unequal enforcement of law: businesses are free to use cheap labor while the workers themselves are targeted, arrested, and punished
   
   Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, and others use a logistics warehouse workforce that they know is up to 40% undocumented...even though the "responsible" temp agencies (which grew almost 600% in the Inland Empire over the last 15 years) who are obligated to ensure that all their employees are legal...
   
   Just to keep one's head above water, an hourly wage of 17.48 is required....but Walmart pays the temp agency 10-12, and the agency passes on 8-10 of it to the workers....and a slow economy means less work...less goods flowing in through the ports of LA and Long Beach, and less merchandise moving to the distribution centers for further distribution...
   
   The housing collapse that pushed our nation into this recession/depression was largely due to the inability of Inland Empire families to continue to pay for their homes....a large percentage of these were logistics warehouse workers...
   
   Real discussions involve more than quick quips Sab...but at least you are staying true to your form...
   
   The expansion of the maquila industries both stripped Americans of jobs, while moving a huge population northward, enticingly close to the American border, far from where they actually were born and raised...and then there are the rapes/murders in Juarez...
   
   While American, South Korean, Canadian, and Japanese firms rake in profits because labor is so cheap and Mexico puts up few "regulations", the working classes of both the U.S. and Mexico find themselves in greater competition, and with less to show for their efforts..
   
   In the meantime...Walmart shows increased profits... The true cost of low price....what a con job!
   
   To be responsible in this world we have to look beyond the artificial borders that elites have created for their own enrichment... By enabling Mexican workers to gain a living wage and benefits, and by putting pressure on the Mexican government to reshape its relationship to its people Americans will prosper....
   
   The "us" American and "them" Mexican conflict perspective is both pointless and fruitless...at least in my opinion.
   
   Serious enough?

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   1. 56

      Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      "-Oaxacalifornia"
      
      They serve nice ice cream (just like you serve up your 'pet issue of the month' - but they have much greater variety)
      
      
      
      
      "-far from adequate labor rights
      -political corruption at the hands of big business
      -unequal enforcement of law: businesses are free to use cheap labor"
      
      None of which is an excuse for violating the sovereignty of my country.
      
      
      " while the workers themselves are targeted, arrested, and punished"
      
      You mean the 'workers' who violate the law?
      
      
      "Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, and others use a logistics warehouse workforce that they know is up to 40% undocumented"
      
      You should write to your Congressman to encourage legal action against them.
      
      "... the Inland Empire ..."
      
      The 'what' now? (here we go... )
      
      
      "Just to keep one's head above water, an hourly wage of 17.48 is required...."
      
      Says who? Where? Under what conditions?
      
      
      "....and a slow economy means less work..."
      
      Hmmm...so, anti-business measures would mean even less work, right?
      
      
      
      "The housing collapse that pushed our nation into this recession was largely due to the inability of mortgage holders to continue to pay for their homes...."
      
      
      Yeah, so those who had been 'encouraging' lenders for years to give mortgages to people obviously not qualified didn't really do them any favors after all, huh?
      
      "a large percentage of these were logistics warehouse workers..."
      
      Ok, what percentage, exactly?
      
      
      
      "...and then there are the rapes/murders in Juarez..."
      
      The Mexican government should absolutely do something about that. It is their most important responsibility.
      
      
      
      "While American, South Korean, Canadian, and Japanese firms rake in profits because labor is so cheap and Mexico puts up few "regulations","
      
      
      Companies attempt to make a profit?! Unbelievable! What an outrage! The government of Mexico should immediately throw them all out of the country and close its borders.
      
      
      " the working classes of both the U.S. and Mexico find themselves in greater competition"
      
      
      And competition is taboo in the great collective, isn't it #292008197?
      
      
      "In the meantime...Walmart shows increased profits..."
      
      Another profit-seeking company! Damn them! Who put such an idea in their heads?
      
      
      "To be responsible in this world"
      
      Responsible according to whom? You? The juice and ice cream shop?
      
      " we have to look beyond the artificial borders"
      
      The borders are not artificial. They are quite real, even if certain people willfully violate them.
      
      
      " that elites have created for their own enrichment..."
      
      
      Oh yes, that's exactly why all countries have borders... 
      
      I think you should take your crusade to North Korea and start there. Enlighten them as to your superior world view. Should be easy enough, you share a lot of ideology.
      
      
      " By enabling Mexican workers to gain a living wage and benefits"
      
      "Enabling" them, huh? I think I know what that really means.
      
      
      "by putting pressure on the Mexican government to reshape its relationship to its people"
      
      Go there right now and get on it!
      
      "The "us" American and "them" Mexican conflict perspective is both pointless and fruitless...at least in my opinion."
      
      But "us" are American and "them" are Mexican. All the tye-dyed t-shirts, bandanas wrapped around the forehead, and acusitc guitar music in the world won't change that.
      
      
      
      "Serious enough?"
      
      Not even close.

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   2. 61

      Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Very good post. I agree whole-heartedly.

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   3. 69

      alternate poetposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Hi Mikelong - I have been looking around these forums a few days now, nice to see someone on here not intimidated by gratuitous insults and volume.
      
      Good post.

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7. 60

   mikelongposted 15 years ago

   "-Oaxacalifornia"
   
   They serve nice ice cream (just like you serve up your 'pet issue of the month' - but they have much greater variety)<--Sab
   
   
   Thank you for proving my larger point.
   
   Hopeless is synonymous with Sab Oh...
   
   
   And then there are those who actually take you seriously....
   
   
   Our nation's situation makes more and more sense all of the time..

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   1. 56

      Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      That kinda seems like an insult. Are you trying to insult me?

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8. 60

   mikelongposted 15 years ago

   You'd probably be voting "yes" on California Proposition 16 as well Sab?

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   1. 56

      Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I am not a citizen of the great state of California.

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9. 60

   mikelongposted 15 years ago

   Insult you Sab?
   
   I didn't know I was capable of such a feat.
   
   I thought I was just making an observation.
   
   
   Regarding Prop 16, I figured that you are not from here, yet that should not proclude you from knowing of what said action would do.
   
   I hold opinions on issues that are beyond my state boundaries, as you do.
   
   Would you support Prop 16?

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   1. 56

      Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      "Insult you Sab?
      
      I didn't know I was capable of such a feat."
      
      Yes, insult me. Remember, when you said this? "Hopeless is synonymous with Sab Oh..." That kind of seemed like an  insult to me. If you didn't intend it that way I'd be happy to hear your explanation.

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   2. 56

      Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      "Regarding Prop 16, I figured that you are not from here, yet that should not proclude you from knowing of what said action would do.
      
      I hold opinions on issues that are beyond my state boundaries, as you do.
      
      Would you support Prop 16?"
      
      Well that's different. I suppose I would vote for it if I had the honor of being a resident of the great state of California.

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   3. 56

      Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      YOU, being a resident of California (if you are old enough to vote, I can't be sure) will actually have a chance to vote on the question. How will you?

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10. 61

    JON EWALLposted 15 years ago

    HUBBERS
    
    In 1986 congress passed the illegal immigration law. The law was passed by a voice vote, meaning there was not roll call vote taken to register who voted aye or nay.
    Today many of those congressmen are now senators serving in our government.
    These same people will proclaim that'' our nation  has a rule of law '', big joke and another fraud on the American people.
    
    The solution can be simple
    1 Enforce the law
    2 Stop and imprison violators ( government trespass ) right at the border in view of the violators on the other side
    3 Deny legal citizenship of children born of non citizens
    4 Deny non citizens government entitlements costing the taxpayers some $300 billion/ year
    5.No amnesty for anyone who is illegally here.
    6. Families have a choice to leave their American born children or take them with them when being deported
    
    Until our government resolves the above, no new laws .
    wake up America, stand up for our rights first, sound out to our elected officials.

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    1. 56

       Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I agree with all the above but #3 and #6, that's too far for me.

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11. 60

    mikelongposted 15 years ago

    It is seriously difficult to take you seriously Sab.

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    1. 56

       Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Is that another insult, young man? I know your parents are right there - put them on so I can talk to them please.

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12. 60

    mikelongposted 15 years ago

    I think you can figure out which side of this issue I am on Sab...if I am indeed old enough to vote...
    
    As for the list of items put forward by Mr. Ewall, who has in the past put up completely false information, I believe that if the constitutionally mandated citizenship of undocumented is to be revoked, the citizenship of those who knowingly hire them (and their children as well) should be stripped...and they should be deported to the same nation that their labor force comes from.
    
    Fair is fair....
    
    I love how people continue to ignore the actions of their own countrymen while demonizing the "other"....how xenophobic and nativist..
    
    Repeating the same backward, broken thinking that has continually failed to address reality (like making "abstinence only" a sexual education alternative to learning about condoms etc.) does not do anything productive.

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    1. 56

       Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       "I think you can figure out which side of this issue I am on Sab..."
       
       Why don't you tell me anyway, since you brought it up (repeatedly...)

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    2. 56

       Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       "I believe that if the constitutionally mandated citizenship of undocumented is to be revoked, the citizenship of those who knowingly hire them (and their children as well) should be stripped...and they should be deported to the same nation that their labor force comes from."
       
       Wow, that really, really makes no sense.

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    3. 56

       Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       "I love how people continue to ignore the actions of their own countrymen while demonizing the "other"....how xenophobic and nativist.."
       
       There we go! Fill your quota of code words for the day so Prof. Lefturnskian will give you your gold star and a pat on the head.

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    4. 56

       Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       "Repeating the same backward, broken thinking that has continually failed to address reality (like making "abstinence only" a sexual education alternative to learning about condoms etc.) does not do anything productive."
       
       
       Bingo! The lefty 'Painfully Obvious Change of Subject' has been launched and this thread is complete!

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13. 60

    mikelongposted 15 years ago

    If you back the thinking of the misinformed that is your own choice Sab.  And this country enables you the freedom to delusion yourself as much as you wish...
    
    I live in the city with the highest population of undocumented...and also with one of the highest concentrations of millionaires and billionaires...
    
    In the restaurants (from Armenian places like Burger Continental and the Sahara to Chinese cuisine) largely undocumented immigrants are busy cleaning tables and cooking food...
    
    In the warehouses up to 40% of the workers unpacking truck trailers, sorting Walmart-bound goods, and reloading for movement to the marketplace are undocumented...
    
    Half, if not much more, of the agricultural workers bringing fruits and vegetables to the American and global marketplaces are undocumented...
    
    Los Angeles, the home of the largest textile sweatshops in the nation, rely on undocumented labor...
    
    L.A.'s hospitality industry, from Hilton Hotels to Motel 6 greatly depend on undocumented...
    
    
    These are not hidden workforces....all ICE has to do is show up at a Hilton, or at a Walmart warehouse, and they will find undocumented...but the issue is that ICE will never show up at either of these locations....there is too much money to be made...
    
    Why are the Hiltons not brought up on charges?  Wouldn't their punishment for enabling immigration violations and illegally hiring undocumented set a precedent that other businesses would follow, or face the same stiff consequences?
    
    Isn't it important to first hold onesself up to real standards before running around telling others what to do?
    
    I think so.
    
    By the way....I will vote 'No' on Prop 16... There is no real alternative.
    
    I will stand against the corporate manipulation of government every single time.

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    1. 56

       Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       "If you back the thinking of the misinformed that is your own choice"
       
       There's that classic liberal attitude at work! Anyone who disagrees is misinformed, asleep, duped, blind, or just hasn't had it explained well enough.... 

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    2. 56

       Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       "By the way....I will vote 'No' on Prop 16... I will stand against the corporate manipulation of government every single time."
       
       
       You mean you will stand FOR the misappropriation of taxpayer money - without giving the people a chance to have a say in the matter -  to fund the takeover of private industry. Yeah, that fits your M.O. alright. Obama should be calling with an offer to make you Czar of something or other any day now.

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    3. 56

       Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       "I live in the city with the highest population of undocumented..."
       
       Undocumented what? Oh, you mean ILLEGAL ALIENS. I see.
       
       
       "These are not hidden workforces....all ICE has to do is show up at a Hilton, or at a Walmart warehouse, and they will find illegal aliens..."
       
       Well, give 'em a call! Call your Congressman's office while you're at it. Call your Senators. Call the local police, call the local newspaper and TV stations. Don't just complain, do something!

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14. 60

    mikelongposted 15 years ago

    I'm glad that you again ignore the larger comment to make a pointless remark about a snippet.
    
    Way to be typical...
    
    Good job!

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15. 60

    mikelongposted 15 years ago

    I thought you were the one calling for undocumented to be arrested and deported and such....with the leads I have just given you (as if you didn't know this stuff already) you should be living up to your hype...
    
    
    As for your comments on Prop 16, there is already legal precedent in California demonstrating how communities have already ousted PG&E and opted to choose an electricity provider that offered superior services...
    
    Your misguided "misappropriation" comment demonstrates how little you know of this subject, yet how much you decide to speak regardless...
    
    Way to support a company's attempt to keep localized monopoly...which is what Prop 16 is....
    
    Who is funding this measure, by the way?
    
    Again, it is great to see you show how backward your thinking can be...

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    1. 56

       Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       "I thought you were the one calling for illegal aliens to be arrested and deported and such...."
       
       
       Sure, that too.

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    2. 56

       Sab Ohposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       "As for your comments on Prop 16, there is already legal precedent in California demonstrating how communities have already ousted PG&E and opted to choose an electricity provider that offered superior services..."
       
       
       Well, then there should be nothing to fear in letting people vote on it before spending their money to take over private industry.

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16. 56

    Sab Ohposted 15 years ago

    And you never put your parents on as I instructed. Are they already alseep? That's ok, don't wake them. It can wait.

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