Lynne Stewart, the retarded traitor atty. for Omar Shiek Abdel Rahman was given 28 months plus 8 years.
I think this is great.
And yes I realize it may be tantamount to a death sentence for her.
She isn't running her Leant leftist mouth now.
There is so much venom in you about "left" and "right" points of view.
In this case, it might be more about just breaking the law and justice for doing so.
It is about treason and our lack of dealing with it.
We let spies go home... we don't prosecute anyone for printing secrets in papers or on the internet.
It has to be stopped, its allowance has destroyed this country and we are going to pay for it if we don't start acting like our national security and national interests mean sonmething.
We need to understand that there are certain people in this world which are our enemies. They have been, and probrably always will be. I am tired of treating countries who are not our friends as if we can trust them and those who act on thier behalf.
Comminists, Socialists and Islamic countries never have been our friends and they are not now. I am tired of the progressive Leftist policies of talk and wait till they screw you.... then talk some more.
it annoys me to no end when these people betray their own country on American soil, enjoying all of the liberties others fight and die for.
The thing about it though Cosette is that she really didn't see herself as a traitor. In fact when she had a lenient sentence she crowed publicly that she got off lightly. Now that justice is being done you've got all sorts of people getting mad at people who were satisfied that justice was done and mocking their Christianity - they always go there!
I think more people should be brought up on treason if that's what has happened, and I don't see why no one in authority does.
Spoken like a true Christian. Your compassion and love of your fellow man is truly impressive. You are indeed a role model that all could learn from.
There is only one punishment for treason... it has been then same since the beginning of time.
And yes, I do despise trators.
you'll realize that treason is a nonsense crime when you realize that you aren't owned by the government.
How is an Islamist left-wing. Explain that and maybe I'll read the rest of the thread
It is amazing how much hate these supposed Christians can summon.
I'm a life long atheist, but whether or not Jesus was a real person, a work of fiction, or something in between, I can admire the philosophy attributed to him.
I can also admire those Christians who try to live by that philosophy. It truly would be a better world if most of us just *tried*, never mind succeeded.
But not these two. Filled with hate and anger, lusting for punishment and revenge.
Sad, isn't it?
TMMason, you are a century late. it had been done already in former USSR. They've been chasing spies and cried "treason" for as long as I remember. I am ready to throw up when I hear that again. Do you know, do you have a foggiest idea how many innocent people died in Siberian camps after that word had been said by a "concerned citizen"? I hope, times are different now, I hope, people like you are in minority. I hope that "forgive" is better than "kill". That we should look for friends not the enemies. That together we CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
I don't know what true Christian means.
I don't know what true Islamist means.
But I believe I knoe what a true human being means and I know he can make a difference.
Your post made me very sad.
Yes America is exactly like Russia and we will commence to slaughtering our own citizens just like the Russian leaders.
Give me a break.
If you think we are anything like Nicholas', Lenin's, Cruchev', (not real sure about that spelling, don't care actually.), and Stalin's russia in our actions, then you just don't have a clue about my country.
I don't believe you would come out with something so absurd.
If you think everyone is your friend in this world, then I feel very sorry for you.
And I don't care what my post made you feel... but that was spoken like a true leftist.
ohhh my feelings... whaaa.
Spies exist in this world whether you want to believe it, or just spout the propaganda that they do not, I don't care.
unfortunately they have penatrated and done thier damage to our country by means of policy minipulation and regulatory back stabbing.
Spies are a fact.
Russia would still be pre-WWII if it weren't for thier covert agents and operatives within our govt., military and science facilities. Which provided the mother country with immense amounts of intelligence on science, Atomic Weaponery and all the other goodies we have created, war plans, etc, etc...
And that is just a fact, that is supported by all the records freshly released from all different agancies. NSA. FBI, KGB, OWI, OSS, etc, etc...
Yet don't you know that all those records speak in harmony in thier verification of the spying done by Russia and China in the past 60 years.
Just because the left and the Progressives want to continue to try to hide the treason they supported, and even assisted, in the previous decades, they can not.
Though they have done a hell of a job in the last half a century.
It is out there for all to see... and the truth is mighty ugly indeed.
I don't care who like my talking about the treason commited in the past and still continuing to this day. I am not so blind and stupid to believe the world loves us.
I have listened to the world... and they do not love us, regardless of what you and the Left want to think. Try actually listening to the words of the people around the world and the govts. of the world sometime.
Instead of hearing what you want... you should read them signs they always carry, they speak volumes if you actually do read them and take them at thier word.
They don't all love us... far from it.
Ohh... and you hang spies.
So Lynn Stewart is very lucky she was shown the mercy of a prison sentence.
Too bad for her... next time she won't betray her country to assist the enemy.
you all amaze me... you really think we live in some lil liberal fairy land world, were we can just sit around and all hold hands and sing kumbiya.
Why are you so upset about spies? Don't we have the best ones in the world? And when we catch spies here in our country; we can trade them for our spies. It evens out in the end right?
No, that does not cut it.
You hang spies... and you do not cover them up and protect them as the Left does.
If that is what they want to do... then they can swing with them.
I remember when Karl Rove (it was probably actually Bush and Cheney, but Rove just took the blame for them) leaked the identity of a political enemy's wife to the public domain WHILE she was undercover in another country.
Valerie Plame was one lucky girl to get out of there.
... and then Rove got pardoned (or, he got a piddly sentence, forget which one)...
... and ... now... ... you're worried about treason.
I think "Scooter" took the fall, but was then pardoned, because when a republican committs treason, they get forgiveness.
Just look at all that was forgiven that administration. They have not paid for any of it.
Same as Israel. They spy on us more than anyone...Jane Harman ring a bell? Richard Perle was caught spying for Israel, eh...no big deal.
Yes, as in every issue, the far right has a very forgiving attitutde towards their traitors and criminals.
As Jesus said, "Let those who be without sin, cast the first stone."
And since they tell us that we are all born in sin.....they are breaking the code of their own religion by judging anyone!
Practice what you preach comes to mind.
Chrs, you forfieted your right to speak on this when you ignored the assasination orders from obama.
Everything you say is worthless now.
And that suppossed spy leaked by bush was already known about.
A. She wasn't a real spy
B. Her name was in a magazine interview id-ing her as a cia operative a year or more before this went down.
So both your points are lost and worthless.
You just go ahead and tell us how it is okay for Obama to be assasinating Americans on foriegn soil with no Rights or Due Process.
Alex jones is up the road... you should go play with him.
So "Scooter" was innocent? What a hypocrite you are, TM! I suppose we should have hanged Scooter by your reasoning, right along with those he protected from being prosecuted. What about Oliver North? What are your feelings towards him? Hero?
"A. She wasn't a real spy
B. Her name was in a magazine interview id-ing her as a cia operative a year or more before this went down."
Cite your source or go home.
Sure... here you go Jeff.
She was outed by her husband joe Wilsn. Another of those truths the lefts tries to hide and destroy.
"A month before Bob Novak published Valerie Plame’s name and disclosed that she worked at the CIA in a department that monitored weapons of mass destruction, the gossipy Richard Armitage at the State Department already knew all about her.
When asked how he knew about Plame, Armitage said he knew because Joe Wilson was "calling everybody" and telling them. And by "everybody" Mr. Armitage certainly meant reporters.
With that in mind it is an easy step to suppose that it was Mr. Joseph C. Wilson IV himself who first "outed" his wife as a CIA officer.
And, as Mr. Armitage also suggested, Wilson did so because he didn’t want to be dismissed as some "low-level guy." He wanted to buttress his wildly outrageous (and we now know fallacious) claims against a then popular President at the height of a then popular war.
And what better way to do so than to produce the person who sent him on his mission, and who witnessed the events unfold — his own wife, who just happened to be an expert on weapons of mass destruction.
To see how this may very well have happened, let’s go through the chronology in greater detail."
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/when … erie-plame
The truth is a great thing... and you guys do know I am no Bush fan.
He is a Progressive, you know.
You claimed that Valarie Plame "wasn't a real spy," and that her name was in a news article ID-ing her as a CIA operative over a year before the Scooter Libby thing happened.
I asked you to cite your source.
Instead of linking to evidence that Plame "wasn't a real spy" or linking to that article you mentioned, you link to this thing from Sweetness and Light that accuses Joe Wilson of being the guy who actually leaked Plame's name to the press.
The S&L article is chock full of speculation, but the chronology in interesting, and I haven't yet made up my mind if the speculation is logical or not; I need to read the intelligence report it links to in its entirety first.
In the meantime, you got a link to that article, or evidence that Plame wasn't a "real spy," whatever that actually means?
Thanks Homegirl and pcunix. What you bring here should, indeed, be the focus of our lives.
Her arrogance was her own downfall and she did this to herself. I thought the sentencing was appropriate.
This from someone who has no respect for people who don't agree with him!
It was my understanding that America has the best spies in the world and outside unnamed agencies to execute interrogations, with no boundaries of to whom or where. Israel is almost to par and I understood without these spies how would America ever gather intelligence like an example finding through US intel of weapons of mass destruction, well executed interrogations to American troops and those abroad, oh but right there wern't any in the end.
Truthfully I know little of American Politics and trust nothing I read
But why is this becoming about religion? This makes no sense
Just how I feel
Just to make it crystal clear:
Apparently she did violate the law. It would seem she did so knowingly.
The punishment might be harsh, but only because of her age, so I am somewhat ambivalent.
What I find disgusting is the lust for punishment exhibited by the so-called Christians - one of whom who has now gone to the point of talking about hanging people!
That's ugly. It's disturbing. It unfortunately seems very common among the far right.
Lust for punishment? Who's not telling the truth now? So sad to see someone so judgmental for someone who claims to be so tolerant -- NOT!
You are the one exhibiting intolerance. I am never intolerant.
For those who don't know, Flightkeeper is referring to my opinions of religion. I have said, and still say, that I cannot respect religious belief. I can respect the right to have such beliefs and I will defend those rights, but I do not respect the belief itself.
I do respect and admire the non-religious part of the philosophy attributed to the Jesus of the Christian faiths. I doubt the person actually existed as described and I am quite sure there were no miracles of any kind, but I admire the message of peace and love.
I have known Christians who try to live their lives in that philosophy. I admire them. I do not admire the hatred and venom spewed by those who want to hang people.
Flightkeeper calls that intolerance. I think we all know just how "tolerant" she and her ilk actually are.
Yes, you're so tolerant that now you have labeled me as part of an "ilk".
Oh, how terribly insulting that word "ilk" is!
If I were you, I'd report that. I'll probably get banned for it.
You dont even know what tolerance is, Flightkeeper. It is so foreign to you that you'd never understand the concept.
You don't see an unseemly and emotive lust for punishment here? Because I sure do.
Well you might be seeing something that's not there. I just see a lot of outrage from TM. And he's right, traitors did used to be hanged.
You are right flight...
I am outraged that our country has been turned inside out and backwards in the name of progressive politics and a kumbiya world view.
I am tired of Commie sympathizers and Socialists, Progressives and American haters, who think we are just going to stand around and let them destroy the remainder of our country.
I am tired of them playing the race card, the white guilt card, and the, "ohh your a hater and evil white man", BS...
I am tired of liberals, progressives and democrats on the left, and outright socialists slinging thier slurs and demanding we hold hands and love the world, while the world screws us and blames us for all the ills they have.
I am tired of, and mad at everyone who allows themselves to be cowed down by leftist insults and calls of racism and NAZI, because we are PROUD of our country and it's history, of the things America stands for and has fought for.
I am tired of all the foriegners who cry about us and blame us... when we are the only ones who kept the world from being Russian, Nazi, or Islamic by now.
The world is tiring and repeatative... there insults are going to create a new call for isolationism in this country... and then who will help them.
Let them all have each other for a decade or so... and see who is funny then.
Yeah, I'm tired of their bull as well. But unfortunately we can't shoot them and for some reason they keep staying here even though it's so awful and we're just so pedestrian and unenlightened compared to them. For the life of me, I don't understand why they don't go to Europe since they think it's so cool that everyone goes on vacation for six months and has free health care and they don't seem to mind the taxes.
We were kinda hoping you guys would leave too! I like it just fine here. You guys are the ones always starting the complaining threads. Just mosey on along, I'm sure you'll find somewhere to fit in! Hoo Ha!
You can't shoot them? Then why do baggers feel the need to carry assault rifles to a parade?
You mean the Black gentleman that cnn played up as a white tea partier? CNN got caught red handed lying about that, saying a white racist had a rifle there and the guy was black.
Is that the "bagger" your talking about?
And you do know we as Americans have the unalienable right to keep and bear arms?
We can carry them when and where we want, chrs...
So, why not Scooter? AND Richard Perle...AND Jane Harman.....AND all the dual-citizens we have working in our gvt....Who are they loyal to?
You righties have a lot of nerve talking about loyalty to America....your whole ethos is NOT for this country. Unless you think Global Corporations care about us?? ahahahhaahhahahhaa...laughing forever...
What can you say to refute this logic?
You are a bright and shining example of the mindset of the left.
Nikita Khrushchev would be proud.
I can't understand what Chris is saying most of the time so I don't respond.
You hanfg traitors, PC... regardless of what your lil liberal sensibilities cry about... we hang them.
Ahh, but what to do with right wing traitors, found guilty of treason. Because I assume that you only "hang" leftist traitors?
No Dan, your assumptions really tell me alot about you.
I have continously railed against Progressives and stated over and over that they, Progressives, span all the parties.
So... I would hang 'em all.
As well your reply tells all of us a lot about you.
I don't have such a dim view of humanity. I think the world can be a better place by becoming the answers that one seeks, instead of blaming it on others. Blame means being a victim and taking no responsibility. Taking responsibility of our own lives means we are proactive about making ourselves and the world a better place.
And on this subject of this thread, I still maintain that it's about one person breaking the law and getting some form of justice, not merely a matter of being "left" or "right." Trying to apply "left" or "right" thinking to all situations is absurd.
yea that left right thing.....how about being centred....
i find that some blame others for everything in their everyday life....they don't come up with the solutions or at least try....they just like to complain...and as for politics - they don't even get out there and vote...and when legislation passes they don't agree with, they just get their backs up and don't get out there beforehand and do the work...speaking directly to politicians or the lobbyists to try to influence something they truly believe in...rather sit back and rant when it's all done...and call others left or right or whatever....
I know people like you in real life, and I know people like PC in real life. People like you talk big and mean because you have tiny, scared souls. People like PC have hope for the world because they have big, brave souls and assume others do, too.
This is just my personal observation, of course.
And as well I know alot of folks like you who think philosohic meanderings and liberal wishes of a kumbiya world are the answer to all things.
It is not.
You say, don't address treason because it is such and ugly thing... as if, if we just ignore it they will learn to be in touch with thier feelings and souls and love us as we love them... bwaahahahahah
My scared soul knows damn well there are evil people with ugly intent in this world, and all the lil liberal wishes won't change that.
It is just the attitude you all are exaplifying, that has allowed our country to be transformed to what it is now... and where it is going.
You may think the world is full of flower power loones and we all love and want to cherish each other... but that is far from reality.
I have heard that leftist waa waa the world needs love idiocy all my life, and watched while our counrty was wussyfied in the name of Progressive liberalism and PC madness. All in the attemopt to weaken America so that our enemies can simply walk in the back door... and guess what... now they are here.
I don't care what you all thing about me, or my views... believe me, you all don't matter to me a bit. My itchy ass takes up more of my mind, then you all.
Also, I have heard Lynn Stewart spout her anti-American hate quite a bit on free-speech Tv, and current... so I feel no pity for her.
No, we know the world has ugly, evil people in it. We see them right here in these forums.
And we aren't fools. We just like to TRY talking first. We like to be merciful when we can be. We'd rather convert than destroy.
You are very afraid. I see that and understand it. Maybe someday you can become a better person.
oh yes I am so scared.
And we have talked ourselves to death... and it has accomplished nothing more than allowing our enemies to aquire nukes and other techs they should not have.
So you keep talking as someone aims a gun at your head and I know where that will lead... and end.
And you, currently the most aggressive nation on earth, should have these violent toys ? Especially with aggressive violent people like you forming a significant part of your population - may your god help us all !
His god seems more like the smite them dead type, so I wouldn't look there for hope.
We aren't all like him. Those types make a lot of noise, but they don't have much power.
Unfortunately, we have let our educational systems lapse, so we have far too much ignorance today, and of course far more violently angry people. I know their numbers have increased, but I still think they are not important enough to really worry about.
I sure hope so, anyway.
Thanks for that reassurance I have to admit that out of the twenty or so Americans I have met in the last few months all of them have been predictably opinionated - but generally nice peaceful people. But then they are travelling and on holiday.
Too many of the rational people don't speak up. It is probably because we don't see things in black and white, and have trouble discussing nuance with people like TMM.
But I still think there are more of us. More liberals, more centrists. More good people than not.
So your a good person because you are a liberal/centrist but those who do not hold your beliefs are somehow not good people?
A tad Judgemental.
If you think I'm a centrist, you haven't been paying attention at all :-)
I am so far out of the mainstream that I'm not even a trickle off a creek off a stream off a tributary of the mainstream.
I respect moderates. I am not one.
That is one hell of a huge lie to sling around.
America is the most agressive nation eh?
You know TM for an aggressive nation, I wonder why we don't just use our nuclear arms and go postal on everybody?
Because our Christian morals keep us from world domination.
An act that has been quite within our power for a long time now.
It's a tad more subtle than that. Maybe no nuclear holocosts, but we ARE the aggressors in many wars. Afghanistan, Iraq come to mind, even going back to Vietnam and Korea. We certainly don't make friends easily in the world, and apparently our allies are careful about their stance with us.
Alright, so you ignored when China invaded Tibet, when Iraq invaded Kuwait, USSR invaded Afghanistan and prior to that USSR invaded everyone around them, Turkey invaded Cyprus, Argentina trying to take over the Falklands, countless invasions between various African countries, and a bunch of muslim countries invading Israel several times but we are the most aggressive.
That says a lot about your world view. Yeah, real subtle.
So, as long as everyone else is doing it, it's okay? Relative morality--how... leftist of you.
You don't follow the posts very well do you? Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.
No Psyche... that is thier story, Dan's Pc's, etc... not mine or flights.
That is the issue we have with them and the leftists in this and all conversations.
They seem to think in terms of relative morallity about all and everything.
We are explaining to them that that is not acceptable.
Did you miss Shock and Awe?? That was pretty postal. And what was the reason?? There were at least 5 given....do we know yet?
over 4,000 AMERICANS dead there....you call that a Patriotic thing to do?
Millions of Iraqi's too...including babies. But I know "those" babies don't count.
Chrs your the one who thinks it is great Obama can assasinate any American he wants on foriegn soil without due process.
that is pretty bloodthirsty.
So Daniel, what do you think we should do. I would like to pull our military from Europe, Japan, and South Korea. I think that move would definitely render us less aggressive. What do you think?
I think we shouldn't have gone to war to begin with in these areas, but now that we are there, we have to follow it through because just pulling out and going home will most likely have horrific consequences. Plans currently proposed to withdraw, I don't know enough about to assess.
I do not like traitors of my country any more than you, TM or anyone else. They definitely need to be brought to justice. I'm not concerned about their politics, the judicial systems leanings to right or left. I'm concerned that there needs to be justice brought to such people. Again, not everything is about right and left politics and thinking. We're talking about the basics of people who break the law in a very heinous way, to the detriment of the American public.
Daniel, you said we are aggressive. We will withdraw soon from Iraq and Afghanistan. would withdrawing from Europe, Japan, and Korea would make us less aggressive in your eyes?
Aggressive is how we are perceived by most other nations. I don't have to agree with that to understand it. What I understand is that America plays Big Brother by going in some countries and proclaiming what is right and true and enforcing it on other countries, disregarding in most cases, culture and a host of other things, which only foster hate toward the US.
I don't have to agree with another country's culture or habits, but understanding it does help bring a lot less animosity. Hence, yes, I think America is aggressive and in many cases, unnecessarily so, but not in all cases. I'm not a pacifist. Pacifism doesn't protect a country and its people. But why make billions of people suffer needlessly over aggression, war, and all the goes with it? That's the biggest stupidity of all, based usually on power and ego.
Washington politics is about POWER, MONEY and GREED. Until that stops, we get more of the same.
We have little control over how we are perceived. You seem to think that we make people suffer needlessly. Give me specifics.
Surely you do not believe that over 100,000 Iraqis needed to die? Does he really need to provide specifics that you can't figure out for yourself?
They don't figure things out. They wait to see what the Party Leadership has put out for talking points, memorize those, and then regurgitate them here. It's called "consensus" in their world.
I am so tired of the 100,000s of BS talking points the Left slings around. As if every last civillian casualty is our fault.
They obviously have no clue about how our Army and military fight a war.
We are the only country in the world that breaks its back to bend over and let ourselves get screwed to save a few folks.
You know what. Liberals fight and die for their country, too.
You are as pathetic as FK.
I think we are all well aware of who the pathetic ones are.
But if it makes you feel better, PP, you can call me all the names you want.
Leftists and thier insults do not bother me. It just shows who can actually support thier understandings and facts.
You know TM that was a personal attack, you can report it if you want.
I was well aware when I typed it and clicked "Submit." I'm tired of some conservatives using the military in their arguments and then pretending that they "own" respect for the military. It is divisive and, in reality, disrespectful of the men and women who put their lives on the line.
You, who accuse me of having no respect for the military, have shown them the ultimate disrespect.
I am not like them Flight...
Though they would run to report me, I am not the type.
I am one who doesn't care about personal attacks. It simply shows the true charactor of the one spouting them.
And you probably believe that don't you?
Thats the talking points that the democrats have been using.
Regurgitated here for our pleasure.
Is that 100,000 the same 100,000 children that were killed during Clinton's time or is this a different 100,000? As for that figure, why shouldn't I question the source? If that 100,000 died because Hussein and his armies used them as human shields in the middle of a war, why should we be held responsible? You clearly have no respect for our military and their efforts to conduct a war and try to minimize civilian deaths while alqaeda and hussein's army have no such qualms.
The Iraq War was not a war of necessity, so yes, U.S. policies have caused needless suffering.
The rest of your post is nonsensical and off topic. And, as for accusing me of having no respect for the military, you are showing your disrespect by using them as an emotional tool in your argument. You are pathetic and have no shame. If you knew me and my family, you would be embarrassed and ashamed at that particular accusation.
Just because you think it wasn't a war of necessity doesn't make it so. There were a whole list of reasons for attacking Iraq. You just don't want to accept those reasons.
Again you just want to lay that 100,000 figure at our feet because you can't source it. Name the source or go home as one poster said here to TM.
As for disrespect, you are the one who made the claim that our army killed 100,000 civilians so it's pretty unconvincing that you are outraged when you were the one who made the huge slur against the military. And if you do have people in the military, then you should be ashamed because you should know better.
Yes, and they understand the concept of respecting the military even when our leaders use them for their own self-serving purposes. I know that's a bit too subtle for you to grasp, but give it a try.
The military over-whelmingly votes right all the time... thier may be a few leftists in there that do care about our country.
But I can tell you most of the liberals I see in the military are on the news in Canada, seeking asylum.
I served in the military honorably, and no one who has not been in the ranks should spout about what the military thinks and believes.
You're right. The military is made up of individuals of all political persuasions and many different beliefs. That's why one political party shouldn't try to claim only they respect the military.
"I served in the military honorably, and no one who has not been in the ranks should spout about what the military thinks and believes."
I too served honorably, and as much as I agree with most things you say I do not agree with the statement above.
I served so any U.S. citizen had the right to continued free speech.
I may not like what they say but I will defend their right to say it.
And I agree... but they don't get to claim they now the minds of the military without challenge Jim.
But your statement about they shouldn't be allowed to speak about the military because they never served is what I take issue with.
Let them speak they always wind up looking foolish.
Anyone who pays taxes should get to speak about the military because a huge chunk of where your taxes go is right down the hole that is military spending (and as such is the ULTIMATE example of Big Federal Govt Spending of private people's, and private businesses', hard-earned capital). Plus, anyone who stands a chance of being labeled as an American by anyone who is reflecting on the question "What is it Americans stand for?" has a right to speak his or her mind about the military because, whether you like it or not, it is the military's actions that get seen as representing what average Americans think.
If you read back through the thread, that is exactly what I'm saying. FK was the one who insulted me first by saying that I have no respect for the military. SHE brought the military into the conversation to use as a tool to further her argument and to insult me. It happens a lot on these forums, and I never let it pass if I see it.
You haven't given me any source for the 100,000 and all you're doing is insulting me. You haven't proved your point and all I'm hearing is a lot of fake outrage. There's no need to go further here.
You threw the first insult, FK. I'm only fighting back. Don't like that, huh?
Still won't admit to accusing the US military of 100,000 deaths? Yeah, you should be ashamed of it.
And I gave them the source they requested... check the timeline.
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/when … erie-plame
And I haven't heard one word since.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/ja … aqtimeline
I was low. Satisfied?
No not satisfied. It's an estimate from the WHO and there is a lower report based on press reports according to the article. If you have that much variation in the tabulation, you really don't have any concrete figures. This is over.
That is not a biased source... lolllllll
"An estimated 151,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed in the violence that has engulfed the country from the time of the US-led invasion until June 2006, according to the latest and largest study of deaths officially accepted by the Iraqi government."
And you attribute those deaths to us, not islamic terrorists or the suppossed insurgents.
I did not attribute all of those deaths directly to us. However, had we not invaded Iraq, the count would have been considerably lower.
Do you know how many thousand of people Saddam murdered?
I don't think he had any problem racking up the death toll without us.
The only difference now is it not all innocent people being killed.
We are actually killing the bad guys as they try to kill the good guys and the innocents.
So in your opinion we should have done nothing and left the people Saddam was killing to thier own devises and demise?
Which murdering dictator are we going after next, TM? If what we did in Iraq was so noble, let's do it again. Who do you propose we invade next?
Kill 'em all and let God sort them out?
I think Jesus was the first to say that, wasn't he? No? Right you are, I just checked and he definitely did not say that.
I bet TMM wishes he had.
See the way you take what somneone says and run to the extreme end of the spectrum with it.
That is why no one takes the left seriously, all you all run to the extreme with everything.
I agree with invading iraq... you do not.
I do not agree that we shoud not just attack anyone we want... you do too.
See how easy that is...
If mexicos president started slaughtering mexicans and pulling a hitler do you think we should ignore it? Or confront it? And i use mexico because iot would be right there in our face and unavoidable through thousand of miles of media. Also because there is a good chance something awful will occur there within years. The drug cartels want to own that country and they are hard at it trying to take over.
Oh, my bad, you said over 100,000 Iraqis needed to die. So yeah, you should be ashamed of accusing our military of being responsible for the deaths of OVER 100,000 Iraqis.
Not "we" as in just the US. It's obviously rampant everywhere. Headlines are citations enough, I believe.
Additionally, everyone has some control over how they are perceived. Otherwise we wouldn't need Madison Avenue ad campaigns, PR firms and more. We DO have control over how the US government is perceived, and lying to cover up the ugly truth is not what I'm trying to infer.
Well if we means not just the US and it's rampant everywhere then it seems to be the norm then why do you seem to single out the US as aggressive?
I think you've missed my point. I don't blame the US any more than I blame a lot of other predatory countries. I just think that as Americans it would be nice for us to take responsibility for our crap and try to make the world a better place. If we do so, it may help foster improved relations in other places and lead to better things overall. I don't think America is any more guilty than a lot of other countries. I just think we shouldn't justify any bad behavior or politics just because it goes on in other places as well.
And on that thought, I'm done here.
I understand you have nothing further to say. I disagree with you that we are not taking responsibility. I think that we try to do the best we can given our circumstances but we are a big country with many people and we're not going to agree on everything. Given that I think we should be able to see where each other is coming from and discuss it without insulting each other.
By the way TM, those people don't matter personally to you, so I don't think you should take it so seriously. Sounds like you should go out more and talk with real people who enjoy a good time with you. Don't judge how things are in the US because of the libtards. It's not so bad.
I am well aware of that, Flight... these people occupy absolutely no space in my mind.
And I travel quite a bit... thats the reason my #s stay so low. I don't bother with hubs when I am out and about in the world. Only when I am in Fl with nothing more to do, do i bother with this place.
I just will not speak nice, or lie, to agree with someone because it is easier.
I don't think you should be less than yourself either, but I don't think the libtards that are here on the forums are representative. The loony left are a fringe as far as I'm concerned. As for the anti-american foreigners, what else can they do but complain? They don't have any power in their own countries so they just like to blame us. You'd think with all that free time in their hands they'd be happier. But apparently not.
As for our foreign policy, it's a shambles, what'd you expect with him bowing all over the place? But once we have a republican and not a rino in office, we still won't be liked because everyone out there is a socialist so forget them trying to like us. As for the racists, well we know who they are don't we. It's a lot easier to confront them, it just takes time.
Just enjoy what you can and tell everyone to go jump in a lake.
As hot as it is here in FL, I am about to go down to the river and take a swim.
And yes Flight, I agree...
Of course you do.
It's the Party Line, isn't it?
Funny how our law and order man can't seem to follow the rules well enough to get a score in double digits.
Please don't get in the river again, TM! The last time you went swimming it took them forever to skim all of the ugly off the water! Doh!
You and PP have no nother replies except attacks.
It is funny though that the same ones who spew the insults, are the same ones who cry and report when they get spoken to in like fashion.
Have you reduced them to meaningless attacks about your hubscore? I don't understand why they care so much when you don't.
He made an excuse, Flit. I didn't bring it up. He volunteered his excuse. He don't talk about it, I won't. I could care less if he is just using HubPages as a political hobby.
I enjoy his rants, I really do. He is one of the funniest posters on these political threads!
Randy you said this not long ago right below this post.
"So, your hub score is embarrassingly low because you are gone so much?"
You all just try to pass the blame so much it is habit. You do it in front of everyone as though you cannot be caught at changing the facts.
You all are too funny
Yes, my first post in almost four hours was in reply to your excuse for your score. I quoted you. I did not bring it up! Read back and you will see. When you made the statement I had been working for several hours and only responded long after your post!
So, your hub score is embarrassingly low because you are gone so much? Where did you find this out? Or are you merely assuming this is the case? Really, I want to see where you read this!
I know it because I just got back this week, and as the last few times I left and returned after weeks of being gone... and on one occassion about a couple months... it was the same way.
And what. You think writing for hub-pages makes you an accomplished author?
No offense anyone.
I mean it is an okay hobby I guess for some... but I myself, I don't spend much time on the hub part.
I am happy to just create a mess in the forums.
As much as I would love to attribute your low score to your politics, truth requires me to agree that your assumption is probably dead on.
"And what. You think writing for hub-pages makes you an accomplished author?"
Who mentioned anything about being an accomplished author? I was merely responding to your excuse for having such a dismal score. You opened the door, I responded to your statement!
You are merely assuming why your score is low and it seems lower now than it was a few days ago, (weren't you up to a 4) so your explanation makes no sense.
" It is funny though that the same ones who spew the insults, are the same ones who cry and report when they get spoken to in like fashion."
You have no proof of this statement either, TM! Are you privy to information about who does the reporting other of us do not? And who did you make cry?
Hahahaha your still on my score... that is sad.
I do not worry about your puny score at all! But I do not like to be called a liar! You are more like McCarthy than you know! LOL!
I did notice you avoided my last questions though! Like you always do when you get caught making things up!
You could say something about his score that makes for lively debate.
Hey Jim, my score is higher than yor score. Nyah nyah nyah!
But mine comes from hard work and tiresome sarcastic remarks.
Your right it's not how high the number is it's who can make the better zinger.
Ridicule, the leftist approved debate style.
That and making things up.
Wasn't necessarily talking about you.
Are you the entire left?
Do you think you are the only one?
I was certainly the only poster from the left posting when you made that statement, Jim. It seemed like it was directed to me. Why don't you simply just name those you were referring to?<-another question!
Yes you were the only one posting so its all about you.
As for naming names I don't have to resort to that for who I was talking to to understand.
Apparently you do, because it isn't clear to me and so far, no one else has come forward to protest your accusations. But if you wish to use veiled accusations go right ahead, it suits you.
I wasn't responding to you I was responding to flightkeeper.
There is nothing veiled about my accusation I said some on the left make things up.
Thats pretty straight forward as far as I can tell.
Do I feel the need to justify myself or my statement to you?
Let me think.
No I don't, anything else you would like to discuss?
Jim, you do know that he thinks it's all about him.
I am beginning to see a God complex.
Or maybe a martyr.
I like to refer to it as a "Godwin" complex. You know, expect others to back up their words! Well, perhaps you don't know after all!
Ahhh, an edit, blows the whole joke.
Not really, since you don't feel you have to justify your statements it's hopeless. Not that I expect you to be able to anyway!
"Ridicule, the leftist approved debate style."
"That and making things up."
You don't expect him to answer either, huh?
All partisan wrangling aside - how is it possible that you have a score of 2, surely that is an error, or they have mixed up your hubscore and EQ maybe ?
For goodness sake don't mention his score, CM! Jim and Flit are sensitive about it! Hoot!
I'm not sensitive about it.
I find it comical that a grown man would resort to talking about a score to ridicule someone.
Mine is less than yours should I be taken out back and shot?
Am I less a person for having a lower score?
No - it is your childish political view based apparently totally on Fox news that does that for you.
I didn't ask about his score, Jim. I asked how he knew it was low because he had been away for a few days. He also stated some reported others for something and he inferred it was those from the left. I gave him a chance to respond as to how he knew this and he avoided answering. Nothing out of the ordinary!
Why would I need to ridicule his score anyway? He gains enough of that by his statements here!
Nooooo, you don't resort to ridicule.
What was I thinking.
Let me help you. I'll t-y-p-e-r-e-a-l-slow for you.
Shock and Awe.....military DEMONstration of Rumsfelds dream.
No reason for it, other than to "get" Saddam, or so we were told....AFTER being told it was to avenge 9/11, which Sarah Palin still believed as of 2007.
THEN it was to "promote Democracy". What were the other reasons....it was so long and so many deaths ago.....
I DO know that the first thing our brave soldiers were sent to protect were the oil wells. I DO know that Halliburton got rich beyond measure,as did EXXON and Mobil, and I do know that Blackwater cause havoc, rape and murder while there....as well as being paid 2-3 times as much as our own soldiers.
I also know that the head of Blackwater is a Christian fanatic. With a mission to kill Muslims....
And I know that we "lost" billions of dollars over there....while the righties now squeak and squeal over paying American families.
So you take your pick. What was worth those dead lives?
Shock and Awe was the military strategy in Afghanistan.
Afghanistan doesn't have oil.
Saddam used to be the dictator of Iraq.
We were trying to get Osama Bin Ladin.
It's really too much of an effort for me to connect your dots. Sorry. This is my last post to you.
Afghanistan is intimately tied to oil. I am not saying US involvement is related to that fact, but it IS a fact that the region of which Afghanistan is a part, in particular in terms of building oil pipelines from oil fields to sea ports, is extremely important for oil supplies. Do an info search for Hamid Karzai and you'll get an idea. Again, it does not therefore follow that US involvement in Afghanistan is related to oil, but Afghanistan itself DOES have a definite relation to oil supplies.
No it wasn't - it was specifically the strategy spouted by Bush and Co about its disgraceful blitz of Baghdad.
Afghanistan was the "Oh shit, they are tough little buggers" campaign where cocky Bush and Co convinced you that they could do what the British never could, and the Russians never could - and now the US can't either.
I stand corrected on the Shock and Awe part and Chris was right.
As for the rest, I know it's all an anti-american rant so...whatever.
As for Afghanistan, it's now Obama's war to lose.
Not an anti-American rant - it is an anti-war rant. Claiming that anyone who opposes war is anti-American is just an admission that the US is about the only country creating wars around the world at the moment.
And you find it funny that Obama has inherited the debacle in Afghanistan - maybe your partisan politics has taken you a little too far from decency.
Oh please, it's a smear, stop trying to cover it up. If you're really anti-war you wouldn't have approached it in that snide way because being against war is a serious thing. But you're happy to make the Bush co remarks because face it, you're bigoted towards Americans.
And yeah I do find it funny that Barack is in a pickle, especially when he was campaigning that he was going to take the troops out in a year. Reality hit him in the face and he realizes it's a lot harder than he thought. I can always laugh at a fool.
People are always happy when someone else tries to clean up their messes! And Bush & Co. deserves more than smearing for the disasters they caused. You voted for him, right?
No I am not - I am anti-war mongering and Bush fits that description, recent US history makes the US fit that description. You can't tell the difference because your ridiculous partisan politics has lost all credibility.
The issue of Obama trying to get so many aggressive fools in positions of authority - and their foolish supporters around the country - to allow him to fulfil his campaign promise is one of deep shame to the religious conservative block and the neocons. Finding anything funny about your soldiers and their innocent civilians dying every day is your own shame.
It is only partisan to you because you don't hold the same view and your intolerance is why you start calling the other side names and invalidates your position. I am laughing at Obama not at our military but that seems to escape you. In addition, you really don't find anything positive about America or Americans so it is very obvious. You exhibit the tactical leftist strategies and just smear everybody because you don't have people agreeing with you. Grow up.
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