What is the most memorable event associated with today's date?

1. 61

   pueblomanposted 13 years ago

   Is it the 70th anniversary of the Battle of Britain and the Blitz, when British children were put into the air against the German Luftwaffe with no expectation of survival, on aircraft that were little more than motorbikes with wings, and Britain's major cities were set ablaze while Americans sat around their fat dinner tables discussing whether or not to join the fascists and John Kennedy's father told anyone who would listen that Hitler made the trains run on time, and Americans lent Britain money for second rate armaments at interest rates that we only finished paying off in 2007 . . .
   
   Or is it 9/11?

   replyreport
   1. 80

      Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Given the singularity and unexpected nature of the 9/11 attacks, and the fact that the ensuing conflicts still wage hotly today, it doesn't seem too much of a stretch of reason to see how this particular day would seem to favor the more recent and singular event for active commemoration. 
      
      I'm not sure how you are pinning all of the Battle of Brtian and the Blitz down to September 11th precisely, anyway.  That was more of a whole summer of 1940 sort of thing at the very least.  Which is not to downplay the significance of the loss and sacrifice and bravery and, frankly, tragedy and lots of other things, but again, I'm not sure how or why you have decided that there is some sort of conflict of respect or memory coming due today in particular.  Perhaps there is something I am missing and would be delighted if you would share.
      
      If you have a specific loss or tragedy to share with us, just out with it.  No need to create more strife, even if tiny strife in an Internet forum, when between to the two events so much suffering already went on.  At least that conflict was won and the deaths were, while still deaths, at least ultimately given some form of justice in the end.

      replyreport
      1. 61

         pueblomanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Shadesbreath
         
         Thank you for your reply. My purpose was simply to signal an important commemoration in the UK that is being totally ignored in the USA, drowned as it is in its own grief.
         
         Although 9/11 was a terrible incident and an atrocity, it is possible to put a perspective on it. In fact the total lack of perspective shown by some Americans risks diminishing both the tragedy and the heroism of some of those who died in the minds of non American observers.
         
         The losses of 9/11 were unexceptional if taken within the context of atrocities regularly committed around the world. The punishment exacted by America - the murder of tens of thousands of innocent people by indiscriminate bombing,  has demonstrated vengence on a biblical scale.
         
         You rightly observe that during the Battle of Britain and the Blitz, all of the bombs and killing did not  taken place on the 11th of September 1940. There were many days in that year when the killing exceeded the killing of 9/11 and Americans sat back and watched, or counted their profits. However while they were doing that, the Japanese were preparing for December 7th 1941 "A date that will (apparently) live in infamy".
         
         The parallels between Pearl Harbour and 9/11 are fascinating. Both were very good for Britain. Pearl Harbour because it brought America kicking and screaming into the war and 9/11 because it put an end to Irish terrorism. Previously, organisations such as Noraid had been able to subsidise the IRA to come over to the mainland to blow the legs off of our children while they shopped with their mothers in supermarkets. This was done with the tacid compliance of the American government - impossible after 9/11. After that the Irish Republicans were forced to negociate with the British government.
         
         I have not decided that there is a "conflict of respect" here. There is enough grief and enough respect to go round. There is however a lack of perspective and proportionality that needs to be corrected.
         
         The American Empire needs to assure itself that the world feels as it does, and this is especially true of its vassal states such as the UK. It's important to express other positions, especially as the USA is writing our history at the moment. It is not my intention to "create strife" as you put it. To point out that strife exists seems perfectly reasonable.
         
         Your invitation to "share" my possible loss and tragedy with a bunch of complete strangers is frankly weird.

         replyreport
   2. 63

      AdsenseStrategiesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      This is an unnecessarily divisive post (and I am British). The overthrow of a democratically elected Chilean gov't by totalitarian militarists has been commemorated on this date by Chileans since 1973, but are we going to say that what happened in the US in 2001 is any less tragic? How in the name of God do we measure one tragedy against another???

      replyreport
      1. 61

         pueblomanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Adsense strategies
         
         Thank you for your comment. I had not meant to unnecessarily divisive.
         
         Had I wished to be divisive, I would have commented on the Chilean atrocity myself, an atrocity perpetrated by the American government involving the deaths by torture of many more thousands of innocent people both during the coup and subsequently, than died in the 9/11 atrocity.
         
         This was one of the most disgraceful episodes in the history of the American empire. A government colluding with the Chilean ruling class to assassinate a democratically elected head of state and set up a puppet fascist - General Pinochet - to terrorise the country and commit mass murder until 1990. He was subsequently arrested by the Spanish international human rights judge Balthazar Garzon for crimes against humanity.
         
         In 1973 when  the Americans decided to instigate the coup, the economy of Chile was weak but not fatally so. The sudden withdrawal of American credit caused the economy to collapse.
         
         President Salvador Allende, the democratically elected President of Chile was gunned down at his desk on 9/11, 1973.
         
         He had brought to Chile universal education and universal health care, two pillars of democratic freedom which many Americans are still  too stupid to appreciate.
         
         Is it possible that the 9/11 atrocity was timed to commemorate this event?
         
         It is absolutely outrageous that on this date the American people do not apologise to the Chilean people for the crimes they committed against them

         replyreport
         1. 61

            Ohmaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I do not personally care what you believe or why you believe it but when you make generalized statements like this It appears to me that your only purpose for posting is to pick a fight.
            America is not an Empire it is a Nation, and your opinion that the world is to busy paying attention to America's issues to fully commemorate the equally tragic events in other countries is America's fault how?

            replyreport
            1. 61

               pueblomanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Hi Ohna
               Thanks for your comment.
               
               Non of my statements are general, they are all very specific.
               
               My comment about Americans failing to appreciate that universal healthcare is a  democratic right is very well evidenced especially on hub pages - have you read some of the stuff about pinkoes and socialists?
               
               America is an Empire and has been since 1945 (the end of world war 2) it replaced the British Empire in 1956 (Suez). I don't mind that at all by the way.
               
               America is a global power jealous of its spheres of interest, which have always been Latin America and of course the oil rich arab states.
               
               America is absolutely entitled to commemorate and mourn its dead and its heroes.

               replyreport
         2. 80

            Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Okay, you hate America because it is evil, unlike the saintly Chileans and the saintly English and all the other saintly countries whose governments rained showers of gold and joy on everyone they ever came across then had unicorn parades with fairies flying over head.

            replyreport
2. 68

   lrohnerposted 13 years ago

   Puebloman--And your point is??? The United States has a day set aside to remember and pay tribute to the victims of an atrocious terror attack. The keyword in that sentence, btw, is "the United States." We also have a day set aside to remember those who have have fought for our country in various wars--Veteran's Day. Do you have a problem with that as well? Should we stop acknowledging Easter? Do you have issues with the Easter Bunny? What about President's Day? Should we stop that a well? Please tell us, so that we can make you happy...
   
   I seriously do not understand why so many seem to have a problem with us taking a moment out of our lives to remember some countrymen who lost theirs. How you equate that with us not having any perspective simply blows my mind.
   
   After all, I certainly don't remember the U.S. pissing on your Princess Diana parade when she died. Geez, you could have at least worked JFK's death into the day somewhere...  Sheesh...

   replyreport
   1. 61

      pueblomanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Irohner
      
      Thank you for your comments.
      
      I made a series of very clear points but I've made you so grumpy that you can't read them properly.
      
      To summarise. If you are an Empire as America is,  individual grief resonates through the media and is instantly politicised.
      
      This is a forum for politics right? We are supposed to discuss what's happening? I'm trying to have a discussion.
      
      This has nothing to do with personal grief. I have no comment to make about the grief of those who lost loved ones, in the USA or anywhere else. I wouldn't presume to comment.
      
      I am trying to talk about political events that resonate with this grief.
      
      Looking through what I've written, I see I haven't said anything at all that could possibly construed as pissing on anyone or anything. I've said nothing against the commemoration of 9/11, Veterans day, Easter or anything else. I have simply tried to question their significance in and to the world, which is bigger than America and often has a quite different point of view.
      
      To describe 9/11 as America's single day of private grief as you seek to do, is ridiculously innocent at best and mendacious at worst. Americans cannot be the world's kick-ass policemen when it suits them and transform into poor little victims when a sentimental opportunity arises.
      
      You don't need to ban the Easter bunny or President's day to make me happy. But you don't really want to make me happy do you? This is irony isn't it?
      
      It's a feature of the playground bully that when challenged it immediately plays the victim.

      replyreport
3. 0

   klarawieckposted 13 years ago

   September 12, 2010 - THE US becomes world champions in Basketball.

   replyreport
   1. 61

      pueblomanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      YEEAAAYYY! God bless basketball!!!

      replyreport
      1. 0

         klarawieckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         You picture reminds me of my grandpa. He was a gypsy horseman. I'm not lying to you. It's true. I have an exact picture of him.

         replyreport
         1. 61

            pueblomanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            The picture is an Atavar, not a photo of me, so I guess it could actually be your grandpa. In which case I might owe him a credit. Or even money!
            We have loads of gypsy horsemen down here.

            replyreport
            1. 0

               klarawieckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Where are you at? lol
               
               That would be pretty funny it were my grandpa! lol

               replyreport
               1. 0

                  klarawieckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Oh YOU ARE KIDDING ME!!!! You are in Andalucia! That's where my grandfather was from!!! My husband is from Granada. What a coincidence!!!

                  replyreport
4. 68

   lrohnerposted 13 years ago

   PM--Your sweeping generalizations of the "Americans sitting at their fat dinner tables" in the "American Empire" were absolutely written to incite. And now you are calling me a grumpy liar because I don't agree with your views? You might want to revisit just who the schoolyard bully is here.

   replyreport
   1. 61

      pueblomanposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Iroher
      
      This is not intended to be personal. By using the word "mendacious", which you've apparently looked up,  I didn't mean to imply that you are a liar, only that the statement you made may have been made deliberately to prop up a weak argument, rather than ignorantly.
      
      "Americans sitting at their fat dinner tables" was neither a sweeping nor a generalised statement. The food of British people was rationed in 1940 and until 1956. There were few fat dinner tables here.
      
      The American Empire is a simple statement of fact. You can't surely be so silly as to think it's some benign avuncular institution that's up for freedom and the general good? Ask the people of Chile. Ask the Cubans!
      
      I am so sorry that you feel bullied. I'm astonished that you feel bullied. You seem to be doing all the shouting.
      
      It is true though that I am writing to incite. Is that wrong? I see you are a member of "the Elite". Perhaps you could advise me? I rarely see anything in the fora or in answers that's inciteful or even of interest.

      replyreport
      1. 80

         Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I think you are picking fights with your allies for some reason, and nit picking where people place their focus, creating animosity over others not focusing where you would have them focus. 
         
         As for your comment to my post:  "Your invitation to "share" my possible loss and tragedy with a bunch of complete strangers is frankly weird."
         
         It's not weird, only perhaps my intent was not conveyed well.  My purpose with that was to suggest that maybe there was some personal loss or particular, individual suffering you as a living person of flesh and blood, not a dissembodied Internet persona of ideas, may have had those 70 years gone that brings them up so forcibly now, all these decades later on the anniversary of a much fresher wound that is felt by everyone living now as opposed to that other moment in history for which so few relatvely speaking are still capable of having any personal memory at all.
         
         However, on a larger scope for this thread, you are shooting yourself in the foot, in my opinion.  Your response to Irohner in particular gives evidence of it.  It's not even that your points aren't great ones or that your ideas aren't something that should be brought to people's attention.  Think of it, how many people reading what you are writing about were alive 70 years ago?  They can't possibly have a connection like you might, if you chose to share.  You have a chance to educate us with your real experience (if I'm not assuming too much), but your rhetorical choices are acidic and condescending, and you are failing to win your case because your bitterness is leaking out and blunting an otherwise great set of points.
         
         As for expecting much of value on an Internet forum, well, it's an Internet forum of a very public nature, more so than most.  You can't expect much.  You can hope for more, but expecting it is going to dissapoint.  Part of the reason the open minds don't show up, however, is that too often arguments are not made respectfully.

         replyreport
5. 80

   Mighty Momposted 13 years ago

   Now there's a capital idea. Let's just forget about 9/11 altogether, since in the grand scheme of global atrocities it is relatively minor.
   Instead, we should spend the day apologizing as a nation for crimes we Americans have committed against Chile.
   Expanding on that thought, I'm sure we would not have to research very far to attach dates to all of the major atrocities Americans have perpetrated around the world.
   Heck, I bet we could have an "apology of the month" club -- August for bombing Japan, September would be for Chile, as you have suggested, maybe October would be for Iraq, November for Viet Nam, December for our own Native Americans,etc., etc.
   
   For the record, I sincerely doubt the date 9/11 was chosen for terrorist attacks on the US because of Chile.
   I haven't read this officially anywhere, but 9-1-1 is the number associated with "emergency" -- maybe that's the connection (?)

   replyreport