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Michele Bachmanns radical position on minimum wage

  1. Stacie L profile image91
    Stacie Lposted 6 years ago

    Michele Bachmanns radical position on minimum wage
    By Greg Sargent
    This morning, Michele Bachmann confirmed on Good Morning America that she could support abolishing the Federal minimum wage. Thats an actual substantive position that offers a window into Bachmanns ideology and worldview. But judging by the media chatter today, her John Wayne flub is still being widely viewed as far more newsworthy.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plu … _blog.html
    many Republican members also support this idea...people cant make it on minimum wage now..are they not going to be happy unless every citizen is out on the street?

    Now if Congrsss agrees to work for minimum wage then maybe they'll be more credible...

    1. Uninvited Writer profile image82
      Uninvited Writerposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Hell, why don't we just bring back slavery and be done with it.

      1. Evan G Rogers profile image77
        Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        If you think removing the minimum wage would lead to slavery, then you haven't really thought through the issue.

        In fact, we used to have MAXIMUM wages in our country, and the market found a way around them (employer funded health care).

        So, no, slavery and minimum wages have nothing to do with one another.

        1. dutchman1951 profile image61
          dutchman1951posted 6 years agoin reply to this

          it would come down to indentured servatude, like the Ols Coal Mine Days, about the same thing actualy

          1. Jonathan Janco profile image70
            Jonathan Jancoposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Unofficially, the minimum wage is pretty much gone. Try working in a kitchen thesedays. You either accept the coersion of 'compettitive' pay or starve. Actually, I was starving making that little even working 70hrs a week. If they repealed it for real, it would definitely help gun sales and provide some jobs to aspiring security guards and bodyguards, but that's about it.

          2. uncorrectedvision profile image61
            uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            On the contrary, a Federally dictated price for labor so distorts the market that it is far more likely that some wages in some places would fall while creating more jobs and other wages would rise.  It is even more likely that a more graduated job market would emerge with more levels of pay rise available to workers based on experience. 

            The elimination of the minimum wage would mean more teenagers getting their first job and learning about those things they lack.  Punctuality, commitment, ambition, industry.  It would give a greater incentive to step away from low paying work and create ones own job.  It would create a rising level of expectation among those who have languished at the artificial wage because they can get by without much effort to become more ambitious and have excuses, external to themselves, to keep them down.

            The minimum wage is a mediocre wage and imposes on the minimum wage worker a dehumanizing kind of Soviet mediocrity.  The expectation to better oneself disappears when there is a vast all powerful government dictate that sets all wages at a certain level.  It retards the division of labor and introduces inefficiencies that would not otherwise exist.

            The minimum wage reduces the minimum wage worker to the minimum person.  But that is okay - it makes liberals feel better about themselves.

            1. Doug Hughes profile image60
              Doug Hughesposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              People... examine this argument for any trace of logic.

              "On the contrary, a Federally dictated price for labor so distorts the market that it is far more likely that some wages in some places would fall while creating more jobs and other wages would rise.."

              Real unemployment is  running about 10%. Conservatives want to eliminate unemployment insurance and eliminate the minimum wage. The dynamics which are bad enough now, under the teabagger philosophy would create a subclass of ultra-poor.. and a class of ultra-rich who exploit them without mercy.

              1. uncorrectedvision profile image61
                uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Real unemployment and underemployment is running at over 50% if you are a Black teenager - way to go Barry!!!

                Illogical is a word used by liberals in the same way a teenage girl uses the word immature.

                There is demonstrable and negative effects from both wage manipulations.  Perhaps a little less feeling and a little more thinking would benefit liberals. Never mind that would undermine the ability to say look at what good intentions we have. We have destroyed the educational prospects for millions of urban kids but we did it with the best of intentions and so on.

                1. Doug Hughes profile image60
                  Doug Hughesposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Unfortunately, the wingnut vision of prosperity for black teens involves having them pick crops instead of illegal aliens - for considerably less money and with no pesky workplace regulation. The only thing missing is an overseer with a bullwhip.

                  1. uncorrectedvision profile image61
                    uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    Shame on you.

                    Time and again Democrat policies cripple poor urban Blacks and you trot out your bigotry.  Minimum wage, public schools and the welfare system have created an urban subculture and you want to lay that all on conservatives. 

                    Shame on you.

                    But, as a liberal, you are incapable of feeling shame.

              2. Evan G Rogers profile image77
                Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Actually, unemployment is around 16% - the Federal government redefined "unemployment" about 5 times in the past 30 years to make the numbers look smaller.

          3. Evan G Rogers profile image77
            Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            No, it wouldn't.  There's just no argument that it could.

    2. uncorrectedvision profile image61
      uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Two years before the imposition of a Federal minimum wage the unemployment rate among young Black men was lower than the unemployment rate among young white men.  Following the imposition of a Federal minimum wage unemployment among Black youth has remained higher.  Black unemployment rises faster during economic down turns than White - despite the presence of a minimum wage.

      Michelle Bachmann's opposition to the Federal minimum wage is supported by the basics of Economics and most Economists.  But never mind that - forcing a minimum wage on the Economy makes liberals feel better about themselves regardless of the negative effect it has on employment.

      Minimum wages tend to price those with poor work histories, few salable skills, or no work experience out of the market for starter jobs.  It tends to depress the creation of positions beyond starter jobs and traps employees into dead end jobs.

        It eliminates flexibility in employment.  It compels employers to seek out employees with more demonstrable skills than 15 year-olds looking for their very first job sweeping floors and emptying trash cans.  It prices those basic low skill jobs where people learn the basic work skills out of the basics business.

      The minimum wage is a bad idea but that is okay - having one makes liberals feel better about themselves while pricing teenagers from bad urban schools systems out of the basic job market.  But at least you feel better about yourself.

      1. wilderness profile image98
        wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        There is much truth in what you say.  As a method to guarantee at least a living wage it is a total failure - only a single person living with several roommates could survive on it and then only in the cheapest areas of the country.

        At the same time it prices those without job skills completely out of the market.  Better to hire the Merry Maids with a crew of professionals at just a few dollars more than someone who doesn't have a work ethic, doesn't know how to mop a floor, and probably won't come in anyway.  In this way the beginner to the work force can remain unemployed and draw welfare while having kids every year for the rest of their life.

        Ah well, at least it buys votes.

        1. uncorrectedvision profile image61
          uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          It is more insidious and destructive than merely buying votes.  Liberalism erodes us.  It reduces us to exhibits in a zoo for liberals to point at and tout their compassion.  We were intended to be free not trapped in the liberal utopia of mediocre jobs, mediocre incomes, mediocre educations - mediocre lives.  If one wants to see what the liberal promises look at the gray and grinding world of communism - it is only a matter of pacing not destination.

    3. fit2day profile image76
      fit2dayposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I like that last idea, congress should work for minimum wage. The economy is so bad because all of our hard earned money is being wasted.

      1. uncorrectedvision profile image61
        uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        The Founders intended Congress to be part time and temporary.  They intended that the best and most talented would serve and then go home to be productive again.

        Yet another example of how prescient they were and how sinful we are.

    4. TheSenior profile image60
      TheSeniorposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I am sooo glad that she favors abolishing the min wage - once this is done away with then bus owners can't say by only giving their new hires peanuts that 'I have complied with the law'. 

      I also blame the schools for not teaching students how to run a business and therefore crippling them to only be employees and for installing in those that would run a business that 'just follow the law' - read my hub on Min wage - path to poverty.

      1. uncorrectedvision profile image61
        uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Vital points all.  What people fail to see is that the Federal Minimum Wage is a floor and a ceiling.  It distorts the market, the perceptions of employers and employees.

  2. profile image0
    Sherlock221bposted 6 years ago

    In the words of the song - "It's the same the whole world over, it's the poor what gets the blame.  It's the rich what gets the pleasure, ain't it all a bloomin' shame."

    In an economic downturn, it is always the poor that have to pick up the bill for the rich.  I have read figures, which state that in the past couple of years, the world's richest have become even richer, whilst the poor are suffering.  It is typical of the political elite to expect the poorest in society to pay for their mistakes, whilst they continue to live in luxury.  Reduce the income of the richest, they will hardly even notice it.

    1. John Holden profile image60
      John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Well, that sort of attitude will get you labelled a hater in no time at all!
      Don't you know it is the role of the poor to uphold the riches of the wealthy?

    2. preacherdon profile image75
      preacherdonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Should check out my hub, An Open Letter to Congress and the President. I say the same thing, cut Congress' salary and benefits. Many of them are rich already and getting richer every year. Not only are their expenses paid, but they also paid for speaking engagements and bribed by PACs and lobbyists. And they give themselves a raise each year. Apparently can't live on a lot. Go figure.

  3. lovemychris profile image62
    lovemychrisposted 6 years ago

    "Well, that sort of attitude will get you labelled a hater in no time at all!"

    Or a Nazi Socialist. Or a lazy MF. Or a leant leftist. Or one who has destroyed America.

  4. Evan G Rogers profile image77
    Evan G Rogersposted 6 years ago

    Repealing the minimum wage would be a great idea.

    No, I don't hate poor people.

    1. Barbara Kay profile image91
      Barbara Kayposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I can picture some employers paying $3.00 an hour an hour to hard working adults with skills. Greed never ends.

      1. uncorrectedvision profile image61
        uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        That wage would only work if no other jobs were available, one could survive on such a wage and the employer was a cold heartless monster.  How convenient it is to make your enemy a monster.  Do you have a poster in your basement of a buck toothed squinty eyed hairy armed gorilla like Japanese soldier wearing "coke-bottle" glasses?

        Greed is a rare sin among people not demanding that government constantly increase their benefits by confiscating money for which they did not work.  The typical employer is hardly a monster, but, what ever makes your fantasy comfortable for you.

        1. Barbara Kay profile image91
          Barbara Kayposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          It's not a fantasy. I've worked for a person like that.

          1. Barbara Kay profile image91
            Barbara Kayposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            PS He made a lot of money off the backs of his employees and got audited and I got a big check later because of the money he cheated me out of.

            I had another employer that cheated employees out of money whenever he could. Don't tell me there is no greed.

          2. Evan G Rogers profile image77
            Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            why'd you agree to work for a jerk?

            I worked for a guy in a restaurant who kept clocking me out early while I was cleaning the kitchen. I caught him red-handed.  I came in one last time, told everyone in the store what had been going on, and then proceeded to make sandwiches for all my family and friends, left and never came back. I then proceeded to get a job elsewhere.

            1. John Holden profile image60
              John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              But how many times did he get you before you caught him red handed?

              1. Evan G Rogers profile image77
                Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Probably a few. That's why I helped myself and my family to a free meal.

                That's why I told everyone there what had been happening.

                His store lost a lot of reputation, and he doesn't work there any more. Don't know what happened to him as I was in Japan.

          3. uncorrectedvision profile image61
            uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Were there no other jobs available?  Were you actually chained to a machine or a desk?

      2. Evan G Rogers profile image77
        Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        ... yeah, they'll offer $3.00 an hour, and NO ONE WOULD ACCEPT THE JOB.

  5. TMMason profile image70
    TMMasonposted 6 years ago

    I would think a minimum wage would be best set at the state or local level. There is a lot of difference in the cost of living form one area to another in this country. But I think we do need a minimum wage, that is for sure. And even as of now the fed min wage is not enough to live on.

    1. Ralph Deeds profile image65
      Ralph Deedsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      A number of states do set state minimum wages higher than the federal minimum. My understanding is whichever is higher applies.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages

      I believe that some cities have also established minimum living wages. Perhaps they are only for city employees. Not sure???

      Los Angeles has a living wage ordinance--Here's a link ($10.42 for jobs subject to ordinance.)

      http://bca.lacity.org/site/pdf/lwo/livi … poster.pdf

  6. Stacie L profile image91
    Stacie Lposted 6 years ago

    I found this today...actually there are a few states already with no minimum wage alws on the books..
    check the link
    http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm


    http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.gif

    1. uncorrectedvision profile image61
      uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Did you correlate the no minimum wages states with unemployment rates?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U. … yment_rate

      1. Stacie L profile image91
        Stacie Lposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        according to the page you gave,it is listing seasonal unemployment rates..
        "The list of U.S. states by unemployment rate are statistics that refers to the nation's seasonally adjusted unemployment rate. Below is a comparison of the seasonally adjusted unemployment rates by state, sortable by name or unemployment rate"

        1. uncorrectedvision profile image61
          uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          What do you think "seasonally adjusted unemployment rates" means?

          1. Stacie L profile image91
            Stacie Lposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            this was a response to your reply about..
            "Did you correlate the no minimum wages states with unemployment rates?"
            i usually refer to the minimum wage with full time employment..I know int eh past minimum wage was paid to seasonal workers such  as teenagers in the summer..

            1. uncorrectedvision profile image61
              uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              The current unemployment rate routinely being reported ( or should that be faithfully) is the U-3 figure.  This figure includes part-time and under-employment.  The u-6 number accounts for those who are working below their previous level of employment and part-time workers. 

              A repeal of the Federal Minimum Wage Law is not a radical notion among economists since its repeal would result in increased employment, more flexibility across the entire labor market, lowering some wages for unskilled, beginner jobs and increasing wages in jobs that require experience or skills. 

              Imagine a federally mandated price for fresh eggs.  The government says eggs must cost $5 a dozen.  What happens to egg production?  What happens to surplus chickens after demand falls off?  What possible reason can be given for a price of $5 a dozen in rural Indiana and urban New York City?

              In a giant economy like ours there are billions of economic decisions made every week if not every day.  Think of the ones that you make.  Will I buy breakfast on the way to work?  Do I need gas?  Should I get to work early so I don't have to pay for parking?  How much should I have in my wallet in case I change my mind and want to eat someplace nicer at lunch?  Do I buy a pop at break or coffee or just drink water?

              Every day you make decisions - would you trust the Federal Government of the United States to have sufficient information about your life, likes, wants, finances?  Do you think that IT can make better decisions about all aspects of your economic life than you?

              So why do you think they have enough information or ability to make economic decisions for others -  Like small businesses, the biggest group of minimum wage payers?

              1. John Holden profile image60
                John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                But you are removing those choices from people.
                "I can't afford to buy breakfast on the way to work" "I can't afford to put gas in the car" "I have to get to work early,  can't afford to pay to park the car" "I can't afford to change my mind"

                Those of you who think that the minimum wage prevents employers from paying more are having a laugh, the minimum wage stops employers paying less.

                1. uncorrectedvision profile image61
                  uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  I know the only thing stopping employers from beating their employees and shackling them to their machines are laws against those actions or is it the availability of alternative employment.  The competition for employees has pushed local market wages for beginning positions above minimum wage in several parts of the US.  The minimum wage so distorts the economic decisions made by employers that job creation is retarded as is diversification of wages in a work place.

                  When the State mandates a wage it mandates a price.  When a price is set it works as a floor and a ceiling.  When the State makes a wage it increases the price for some jobs and depresses prices for other jobs.

                  One hires an inexperienced 16 year old to sweep up, empty the dust bins and carry out the rubbish.  Needed work, no skill and no experience required.  One also hires someone to stock shelves and price groceries.  Even more needed work, more skill and some experience is helpful.  This division is distorted by the imposition of a centrally directed wage.

                  Where two different job requirements create two different jobs. Where two different wages can be offered the imposition of the State dictating a wage ends that flexibility.  The inexperienced and unskilled worker who would have benefited from the skills to be learned on a first job and the the desire for self improvement that the next job up engenders is now deprived of both.  Why should one pay a higher wage for an unskilled worker when a skilled worker is available at that price? 

                  The stock boy now is the floor sweeper.  The higher wage forced on the business owner kills one job, flattens wages, job creation and opportunities for advancement.  It wrecks the market for no skill, inexperienced workers.  It holds wages down for that second tier because no skill duties are now folded in with those original duties.

                  The state dictated wage fails to accept the one truth that trumps all others - people are dynamic as individuals, as groups, as employees and as business owners.  A centrally directed economic choice merely creates a series of other choices unaccounted for in the original "State Wage Dictation Committee's" commanded price for inexperienced labor.

                  1. John Holden profile image60
                    John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    In the UK an inexperienced 16 year old does receive a minimum wage, but that minimum is set much lower than that paid to an adult, apprentices receive less than 50% of the adult rate.

                    The age considered to be adult has recently been lowered from 22 to 21, an age when one is old enough to be married, have children and above all, independence. Somebody of this age could be assumed to already have accumulated marketable skills, have a degree, be a time served tradesman and all the rest.

  7. DonDWest profile image66
    DonDWestposted 6 years ago

    Minimum wage needs to be abolished because it's preventing unskilled workers from entering the market? I scratch my head in disbelief every time I come across this conservative argument of the early 1900's. Are we living in the same world?

    Folks, we're an overeducated society, if anything minimum wage needs to reach 20$ an hour.

    The last time I got paid minimum wage was with a company that hired exclusively at or around minimum wage. Our labour force was 85% college educated. I was the only person in my depertment without a college degree. I wish I could say this was an exceptional employer, but most companies around my region were doing the same.

    The only middle class wages here are working for the government. Yet, you believe abolishing the minimum wage will solve the following problems? I'll keep an open mind, but those who advocate abolishing the minimum wage have a lot of explaining to do other than "it stops McDonald's from hiring teenagers."

    1. John Holden profile image60
      John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Funny that doesn't seem to bother McDonalds in the UK one little bit.

  8. rebekahELLE profile image89
    rebekahELLEposted 6 years ago

    I think some want to take us back to that time period..

    The argument has no logic. How does abolishing minimum wage give unskilled workers an opportunity to enter the market of which skilled, educated workers can't even find work. I'm scratching my head along with you. She's looney tunes.

  9. Uninvited Writer profile image82
    Uninvited Writerposted 6 years ago

    But, if they do away with the minimum wagw working people will have to go on social assisstance to survive.

    1. Jonathan Janco profile image70
      Jonathan Jancoposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      No, I have been hearing the desparate rhetoric, already. It'll be more like the rule of the mob. If they do away with minimum wage, and you're rich, you'd best not look like you are unless you're staying in ur ivory tower. If this goes through, the only businessmen who'll be doing well will be illegal gun dealers.

  10. Barbara Kay profile image91
    Barbara Kayposted 6 years ago

    So why don't they try Michigan's minimum wage laws. Teens are set at a much lower minimum wage than adults.
    http://www.minimum-wage.org/states.asp?state=Michigan You may find that many states follow this.

    If doing away with minimum wage jobs improves the unemployment rate, than it means more workers working for less. More people will be living in poverty.

    Michigan's minimum wage for adults is higher than the national minimum wage.

    1. Evan G Rogers profile image77
      Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Barbara - if there's an exception to the rule, then it usually means that the rule is a foolish one.

      The minimum wage isn't a "wage-floor", it's a "minimum-requirement to work".

      It means that you must be worth at LEAST the minimum wage to a prospective employer to get a job. It means that if you are NOT worth the minimum wage to an employer, then the job will cease to exist.

      1. DonDWest profile image66
        DonDWestposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I disagree, if the job is needed, it will be there, doesn't matter if the minimum wage is $5 or $50. Granted, the job might look a lot different depending on the set wage, but it will be there.

        1. Evan G Rogers profile image77
          Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Indeed: if a job is NEEDED.

          How many jobs are needed? ... not many!

          But despite the fact that your argument failed to contradict my argument, I'm sure that what you meant to imply was that jobs, no matter the wage, will exist.

          This is incorrect. For example, making french fries at McDonald's. If a MWage was passed to make the job's wage $75/h, then all the people doing that work would be fired, and suddenly there would be weird "french-fry making machines" at each McDonald's... also, the price of fries would shoot up to $3/small.

          Lower wages means that people with low-hire-ability (teenagers, people just laid off in desperate need for money, mentally handicapped, other) can still have REAL jobs AND people can still buy things for a decent price.

          I know reality sucks, but we don't live in the Garden of Eden.

          1. John Holden profile image60
            John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            But nobody is going to set a minimum wage at $75 ph, that's just silly.

            Big Mac pays a minimum wage in the UK but people can still afford their prices.

            1. uncorrectedvision profile image61
              uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              In the States, one can eat all day everyday at McDonald's for less than three hours minimum wage pay.  It may not be the best option but "fast food" is one of the most competitive markets and that keeps prices low.  If wages were forced up across the entire nation the consequent rise in prices would price even more goods and services out of the reach of minimum wage workers.

              1. John Holden profile image60
                John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                But you are arguing against the minimum wage . . .

                Surely the increased demand for goods would lead to lower, or stable prices rather than raising them!

                1. Evan G Rogers profile image77
                  Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Not necessarily - a lowering of price doesn't mean an equal rise in demand.

                  If salt suddenly cost 1 cent per gallon, ... people probably wouldn't really buy more of it. We pretty much already have as much as we need.

                  The same can be said for fast food and other such services: a lowering of prices doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will start going there more often (there might be a jump, but nothing insane).

                  The real issue is this: If you want to work somewhere, you need to go to the job interview and convince your prospective employer that you're worth the minimum wage AT LEAST to get the job. The higher the minimum wage, the harder it is to do.

                  It's not the easiest thing to do when you're a 16 year old who doesn't know how the world works quite yet.

                2. uncorrectedvision profile image61
                  uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  I am not arguing against a decent wage but against a Government imposed minimum.  I agree with the position that there are employers who underpay their employees.  However, when a floor is set by a central directorate the differences between a bad and a good employer are, artificially, leveled out and a bad employer is given new life. 

                  The competition for good workers, trained and experienced workers, would compel, either, an increase in wages or the employment of an inferior worker(in a qualifications sense)  The employer's responsibility to reward hard work, pay a better wage, provide a better work place and encourage company loyalty are all mitigated by a wage that is artificially leveled out by a central directorate.

          2. DonDWest profile image66
            DonDWestposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            The jobs would be still be there, in your example, you would have to hire people to build/repair the french fry making robots.

            1. Evan G Rogers profile image77
              Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Yeah, I'm sure a kid who's family is poor really has the money and time needed to learn how to repair a sophisticated french fry robot.

              Your argument is ludicrous, please accept this.

              1. DonDWest profile image66
                DonDWestposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Funny, I don't remember whether we were hiring the poor kid or not, a little refresher, your argument: "It means that if you are NOT worth the minimum wage to an employer, then the job will cease to exist."

                My argument was the job wouldn't simply cease to exist, but take on a different form, which you inadvertantly admitted by mentioning high tech robots.

                I wasn't debating whether an entry level candidate would have a chance or not at the newly formed job, merely whether the job would exist or not.

                Besides, I would go on to say that you, like many of your pedigree level of upper crust education, severely underestimate working class kids. I would hire a working class kid to fix machines over a snotty graduate anyday. Poor people have to fix everything imaginable; because they simply can't afford to replace it or hire someone else to repair it.

                1. Evan G Rogers profile image77
                  Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Your argument that the job would take a different form ignores the fact that it would take a year or two of training in order to get this new job.

          3. DonDWest profile image66
            DonDWestposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            What I'm getting at Evan; is that the demand will always be there, regardless of wages. The job might look different, it might be done by different people, might have different technology, we might get oppressive inflation if the wages get too high, but the job in some fashion will be there.

            Provided the demand is genuine, the job will exist. If the demand isn't genuine, as you implied earlier, then I would argue this job shouldn't have existed in the first place. There's no greater fiscal mismanagement than creating jobs you don't need, whether it's $1 an hour or $100 an hour.

            The government of Canada at one time in the early half of this century tried that with "welfare to work" programs. The idea was to take people on welfare and simply put them to work. The conservative brass of course loved the idea, until it reflected horribly on their tax bills. After all, hiring people on for fake jobs can prove expensive.

            1. Evan G Rogers profile image77
              Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              The demand for what? the product?  Yeah, sure, that's fine.

              But the demand for the job won't be there.

              If it costs $15/hour to hire someone to flip burgers at McD's, then that job will likely disappear in a year or two. The same goes for countless jobs out there.

              You'll need a bachelor's degree to flip burgers.

              1. Ralph Deeds profile image65
                Ralph Deedsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                The country would survive the collapse of McDonald's.

                1. Jim Hunter profile image60
                  Jim Hunterposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Would McDonald's employees survive?

                  I thought you were all about the little guy?

                  Guess not.

                2. Evan G Rogers profile image77
                  Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Of course it would - for God's sake I'm using McD's as an example.

      2. John Holden profile image60
        John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Using the oft quoted example of McDonalds and how they couldn't survive if they had to pay a minimum wage, they have to pay a minimum wage in the UK and they survive very well.

        If a job doesn't pay enough for somebody to survive on then it is right and proper that that job does not exist.

        1. Evan G Rogers profile image77
          Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Of course they survive, but your not seeing what isn't there.

          This is a classic case of "the seen vs. the unseen".

          Yes, they still exist; yes, they still operate successfully; yes, they still have a large employee base.

          But they probably could have more stores, more products, more employees, and cheaper prices (even if this does or does not increase demand for the food) if they could pay whatever they wished.

          We "see" the minimum wage and how companies still survive, but we "don't see" the companies that CAN'T compete, or the jobs that DON'T exist.

          Henry Hazlitt's "Economics in One Lesson", and Frederick Bastiat's "The Broken Window Fallacy" (both online in .pdf form for free) explain this fantastically.

          http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html
          http://mises.org/books/economics_in_one … azlitt.pdf

        2. Chaotic Chica profile image73
          Chaotic Chicaposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          "If a job doesn't pay enough for somebody to survive on then it is right and proper that that job does not exist."

          If the job doesn't pay enough for somebody to survive on then maybe the outside economy is making it unreasonably difficult to survive.

        3. Jim Hunter profile image60
          Jim Hunterposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          McDonald's has to pay a minimum wage now.

          1. John Holden profile image60
            John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Thus proving that paying a minimum wage would not entail the immediate collapse of McDonalds.

        4. Evan G Rogers profile image77
          Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          "If a job doesn't pay enough for somebody to survive on then it is right and proper that that job does not exist."

          John, pardon my French, but... Who the hell are you to decide this?

          What if an individual wants more money and is willing to work a cheap job on the side of another job? What if someone just likes the crappy job? What if a kid needs a few extra bucks to help out his poor family, but can only get a $5/hr job? What if COUNTLESS OTHER INDIVIDUAL ISSUES exist?

          You've used the argument against me, so I'll use it against you: it looks like you hate poor people, you corporate fat-cat! you want to take jobs away from the poor and unskilled!

          (I had friends who worked for Mom and pop shops because they loved the people... but they were paid under the table b/c the wage rate was only $5/hr... the store went out of business a few years later).

          John - you want to control the economy. I want the people to decide what is right and what is wrong.

          1. John Holden profile image60
            John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            No, you want the corporate bosses to decide what is right and what is wrong.

            1. Evan G Rogers profile image77
              Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Every corporate boss is the slave of the consumer.

              OH, and you didn't address the fact that your idea would cause countless poor people's lives to be harder than necessary just because YOU think that the job doesn't pay "enough for someone to survive".

              ... enough to survive? The homeless can survive, so technically your own argument is that the minimum wage is 0.

              Clearly your argument is based on relativism - you don't actually mean "to survive", you mean "to have a decent life". But then "decent" is relative. People had great lives, until they discovered they could have electricity in their homes. People had great lives, until they discovered that they could watch people thousands of miles away on a box. People had great lives, until they realized that they could talk with people across the world instantly. People had GREAT lives, until they realized that they could send documents across the world.

              "decent" is always changing, John. And if you REALLY do mean "enough to survive", then the you're for abolishing the minimum wage.

              1. John Holden profile image60
                John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Wow, how to make the poor better off, pay them less!

  11. Jonathan Janco profile image70
    Jonathan Jancoposted 6 years ago

    McDonald's is a criminal organization anyway. They have no business doing business. If it came out how they made the food, what they put in it and why it is marketed to the people they market to, the franchise owners would all be lined up next to the Nazi war criminals and the Hutu generals from Rwanda for promoting genocide.

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      It's crook tucker alright. I'd reckon enough of it would Kill a brown dog on a rope!

  12. fit2day profile image76
    fit2dayposted 6 years ago

    Minimum wage has some pros, but is full of cons too. For one thing it sends inflation through the roof every time it goes up. Think of this scenario

    If I owned a company selling bowls for $10 each and sold 100 a day (bare with me) I had to pay 10 workers $10 an hour who each worked 6 hours a day. I'm left with a $400 profit per day before expenses.

    If I'm made to pay each of them $15 an hour, it may sound good for them, but I'd have to let some go, which would slow down productivity and in turn business or hike up prices which would slow down business, forcing me to lay workers off.

    A good solution is to stop giving all of these politicians control, cut their pay and their benefits, they don't care if taxes hurt hardworking Americans, they'll be fine no matter what the economy's doing.

    1. John Holden profile image60
      John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      So you are saying "let the workers subsidise me"!

  13. Ralph Deeds profile image65
    Ralph Deedsposted 6 years ago

    Michele Bachman is far behind Romney in fund raising. Send her a check if you believe

    --being gay can be "prayed away"

    --Roe v Wade should be reversed

    --the US debt limit should never be increased under any circumstances

    --global climate change is a fiction

    --creationism should be taught along with evolution in public school science classes

    --in abstinence only sex-ed in public schools

    --you have a copy, as does Michele, of "Little Tom's House on the Prarie"

    --have trouble remembering whether it was John Wayne or John Wayne Gacy who was born in Iowa

    --you agree with Michele's praise of the "family values of slavery"

    --the minimum wage should be repealed

    Get those check books out social conservatives and put your money where your mouth is!

    --

    1. Evan G Rogers profile image77
      Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      The slavery-marriage thing is atrocious, but likely true.

      I think that the fact that they're pinning it on Obama is a complete load of crap, though. This problem of destroyed AA families has been in the process for some 50 years (if not longer).

      I know I'm gonna get yelled at for this: but things like the minimum wage, forced segregation at schools (when kids see all their White teachers, and all their students Black... they don't exactly like it...), and countless other foolish measures.

  14. Jim Hunter profile image60
    Jim Hunterposted 6 years ago

    It wasn't long ago McDonald's had 60,000 jobs to fill, they were paying 10.00 an hour.

    They had millions of people apply for those 60,000 jobs within days.

    What does that tell you?

    It tells me that 10.00 an hour is too much to pay.

    1. John Holden profile image60
      John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      It tells me that your economy is in a mess!

      1. uncorrectedvision profile image61
        uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Johnny, have you seen the news from the United States - our economy is a mess.  Under ordinary circumstances, the economy of the United States destroys and creates 7 million jobs per month - plus or minus.  When the economy is healthy, the net production of jobs is around 250,000 per month.  Right now, while we are turning left, our economy is producing fewer than 7000, non-government, jobs on average over the last 18 months.  This is will not sustain even the minimum wage.  For every job created there are scores of people currently unemployed.

        Yes our economy is a mess but, given current conditions in the Eurozone, we are not alone.

      2. Evan G Rogers profile image77
        Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        ...?

        If people are desperate for any work, then a minimum wage law ruins the chances of the lesser-skilled employees.

        BTW, a 10/hr wage rate is about the same that a substitute teacher makes in a good school district... so...

        1. John Holden profile image60
          John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          How does that work then?
          Loads of people queuing up and refusing to work for the minimum wage, insisting that they want less?

          1. Evan G Rogers profile image77
            Evan G Rogersposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            I've had numerous friends work for less than the minimum wage. They worked at a mom'n'pop place called Bear Hugs. The "GREEDY FAT CAT CAPITALIST OWNERS" couldn't afford to pay $7.00/hour, and so they offered $5.75. My friends were more than happy to work for the old couple (all the money was paid under the table to keep the federales off them).

            The business went under a few years later.

            1. John Holden profile image60
              John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Despite being subsidised by your friends!

  15. Chaotic Chica profile image73
    Chaotic Chicaposted 6 years ago

    Minimum wage was originally created to try to help all citizens.  Unfortunately every time the minimum wage got raised, housing got more expensive, retail pricing went up, utilities went up, in short the cost of living rose accordingly to negate the benefits of having a minimum wage to begin with.  It has gotten so out of control that the cost of living across the country makes it nearly impossible for mothers to stay at home raising their children. 

    At this point in time getting rid of minimum wage would cripple millions of families even more than they already are.  The unemployment levels and the state of our economy affects way more than black urban teenagers.  Try looking at rural areas where businesses are packing up to move to the cities.  They are just as hard hit.  We have entire towns becoming ghosts but being out in the country nobody cares.  With the state of the economy as it is now, it is absurd to still say that the gov't is all about keeping the poor black man down.  In this country right now we have the wealthy and the struggling.  There is no more middle class and it doesn't matter where you live,  if you are not making six digits a year, you do not matter.

    Consider how entertainers have no minimum wage and make millions a year yet the people who make the products they use will never see that kind of money in their lifetime.  Consider how our seniors, our veterans, and our children are always the first to have their programs and funding cut while special interest groups attatched to politicians maintain their unjustified padded wallets.

    If the minimum wage were to be abolished there needs to be strongly enforced regulations preventing the market from driving the 'unwealthy' into what another hubber referred to as 'sub-poor'.  The wealthy like their money, there's nothing wrong with that.  The problem is that money has a funny way of breeding greed, thus the reason the oil companies refuse to drop the gas prices when they could do so easily and still make millions.  Ironically, if they dropped the gas prices they'd wind up with billions anyway as more people would take advantage of the lower prices to do more travelling thus boosting the overall economy.

    Minimum wage, like many other gov't programs, has found a way of becoming corrupted and being sent entirely off base.  Eventually the minimum wage probably should be abolished but not without some real thought into the consequences and appropriate actions taken accordingly.

    1. Ralph Deeds profile image65
      Ralph Deedsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      "Unfortunately every time the minimum wage got raised, housing got more expensive, retail pricing went up, utilities went up, in short the cost of living rose accordingly to negate the benefits of having a minimum wage to begin with.  It has gotten so out of control that the cost of living across the country makes it nearly impossible for mothers to stay at home raising their children."

      You forgot to mention that Hurricane Katrina was caused by the minimum wage.

      It's true that "housing got more expensive, retail pricing went up," etc, but these developments had nothing to do with the minimum wage. There are more amateur "economics experts" around than ever before. Opinions on economics are like axxholes. Everybody's got one.

      1. Chaotic Chica profile image73
        Chaotic Chicaposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        My reasoning has come from real life experience.  I have been watching the effect of the rise of minimum wage since I was a teenager getting my first job.  Every time the wage went up, business owners all over griped about how they now have to raise the cost of their products to recoup the losses incurred from having to raise their employee's pay.  And they have.  It has had a domino effect on the economy whether or not anyone wants to reckognize that. 

        No, I am not an economist.  I am simply a person who has seen the ripples.  I am also not such an extremist to draw irrational conclusions based on natural acts of God and I do not appreciate being belittled as an unintelligent person because my ideas do not mesh with yours.  There is absolutely no one event that is singularly responsible for the state of the economy today.  It is the result of many factors and it seems to me that the unregulated rise on minimum wage has contributed.

      2. Chaotic Chica profile image73
        Chaotic Chicaposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        My reasoning has come from real life experience.  I have been watching the effect of the rise of minimum wage since I was a teenager getting my first job.  Every time the wage went up, business owners all over griped about how they now have to raise the cost of their products to recoup the losses incurred from having to raise their employee's pay.  And they have.  It has had a domino effect on the economy whether or not anyone wants to reckognize that. 

        No, I am not an economist.  I am simply a person who has seen the ripples.  I am also not such an extremist to draw irrational conclusions based on natural acts of God and I do not appreciate being belittled as an unintelligent person because my ideas do not mesh with yours.  There is absolutely no one event that is singularly responsible for the state of the economy today.  It is the result of many factors and it seems to me that the unregulated rise on minimum wage has contributed.

        1. Ralph Deeds profile image65
          Ralph Deedsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          "It is the result of many factors.."

          That part of your comment is true. But the minimum wage has little or nothing to do with our current hard times. You are buying GOP employer (McDonalds, Taco Bell) propaganda. A number of thorough economic studies have shown that increases in the minimum wage have little or no effect on employment.

      3. uncorrectedvision profile image61
        uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I agree the in the entire history of humanity there has been more misery, hardship, conflict, war, death, plague, mayhem, murder, trouble, turmoil, and disaster caused by one cause above all others.  It is responsible for Katrina, global warming, Al Gore's weight gain,  Barrack Obama's weight loss and the death of the Dogwood bush in my back yard.

        What has caused such misery for humanity?  I think we know. I think we have been told quite clearly who is to blame for everything wrong with humanity and the world.  George W. Bush.  Just listen to Barry he will remind you.

        1. Jonathan Janco profile image70
          Jonathan Jancoposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Do you pride yourself on being ignorant or is it just your ego? And are you only 12 yrs old or do you jst pride yourself on acting as such? I have genuine curiousty in this.

  16. Jonathan Janco profile image70
    Jonathan Jancoposted 6 years ago

    I'm just saying... you act like a pre-adolescent. If ur not I will start to treat u like an adult. And correspond2u like the child ur. If u want me to start treating u like an intellectual equal, I will be happy to oblige.

  17. Paul Wingert profile image76
    Paul Wingertposted 6 years ago

    Michele Bachmann is plains radical period! She needs her head examined.

    1. uncorrectedvision profile image61
      uncorrectedvisionposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Powerful argument, that.  There is nothing radical about wanting to decentralize the authority of the federal government unless you consider the founders radicals?  Their vision, encapsulated in the Constitution is of a FEDERAL state not a unitary one.  A fixed national minimum wage, or any other interference in the market place, is a drag on the market.  Time to maybe visit a professional and get some head injections of economics knowlege.

 
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