This website uses cookies

As a user in the EEA, your approval is needed on a few things. To provide a better website experience, hubpages.com uses cookies (and other similar technologies) and may collect, process, and share personal data. Please choose which areas of our service you consent to our doing so.

For more information on managing or withdrawing consents and how we handle data, visit our Privacy Policy at: "https://hubpages.com/privacy-policy#gdpr"

Show Details
Necessary
HubPages Device IDThis is used to identify particular browsers or devices when the access the service, and is used for security reasons.
LoginThis is necessary to sign in to the HubPages Service.
Google RecaptchaThis is used to prevent bots and spam. (Privacy Policy)
AkismetThis is used to detect comment spam. (Privacy Policy)
HubPages Google AnalyticsThis is used to provide data on traffic to our website, all personally identifyable data is anonymized. (Privacy Policy)
HubPages Traffic PixelThis is used to collect data on traffic to articles and other pages on our site. Unless you are signed in to a HubPages account, all personally identifiable information is anonymized.
Amazon Web ServicesThis is a cloud services platform that we used to host our service. (Privacy Policy)
CloudflareThis is a cloud CDN service that we use to efficiently deliver files required for our service to operate such as javascript, cascading style sheets, images, and videos. (Privacy Policy)
Google Hosted LibrariesJavascript software libraries such as jQuery are loaded at endpoints on the googleapis.com or gstatic.com domains, for performance and efficiency reasons. (Privacy Policy)
Features
Google Custom SearchThis is feature allows you to search the site. (Privacy Policy)
Google MapsSome articles have Google Maps embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
Google ChartsThis is used to display charts and graphs on articles and the author center. (Privacy Policy)
Google AdSense Host APIThis service allows you to sign up for or associate a Google AdSense account with HubPages, so that you can earn money from ads on your articles. No data is shared unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Google YouTubeSome articles have YouTube videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
VimeoSome articles have Vimeo videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
PaypalThis is used for a registered author who enrolls in the HubPages Earnings program and requests to be paid via PayPal. No data is shared with Paypal unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Facebook LoginYou can use this to streamline signing up for, or signing in to your Hubpages account. No data is shared with Facebook unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
MavenThis supports the Maven widget and search functionality. (Privacy Policy)
Marketing
Google AdSenseThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Google DoubleClickGoogle provides ad serving technology and runs an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Index ExchangeThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
SovrnThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Facebook AdsThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Amazon Unified Ad MarketplaceThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
AppNexusThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
OpenxThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Rubicon ProjectThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
TripleLiftThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Say MediaWe partner with Say Media to deliver ad campaigns on our sites. (Privacy Policy)
Remarketing PixelsWe may use remarketing pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to advertise the HubPages Service to people that have visited our sites.
Conversion Tracking PixelsWe may use conversion tracking pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to identify when an advertisement has successfully resulted in the desired action, such as signing up for the HubPages Service or publishing an article on the HubPages Service.
Statistics
Author Google AnalyticsThis is used to provide traffic data and reports to the authors of articles on the HubPages Service. (Privacy Policy)
ComscoreComScore is a media measurement and analytics company providing marketing data and analytics to enterprises, media and advertising agencies, and publishers. Non-consent will result in ComScore only processing obfuscated personal data. (Privacy Policy)
Amazon Tracking PixelSome articles display amazon products as part of the Amazon Affiliate program, this pixel provides traffic statistics for those products (Privacy Policy)
jump to last post 1-6 of 6 discussions (72 posts)

We have lost sight of the important issue in health care.

  1. Josak profile image61
    Josakposted 6 years ago

    With all the controversy about Obamacare we have forgotten the real facts and issues. Here is a reminder of them. (links at the bottom.)

    According to Harvard university studies 45 000 people die yearly in the United States because they are uninsured medically.

    According to the OECD America has the third worst Years of potential life lost index in the developed world, being beaten by countries like Poland, Slovakia and New Zealand and only ahead of Mexico and Hungary.

    According to the WHO the US spends 6719$ per person on health care (before Obamacare)  for a life expectancy of 78 and 26 doctors per 10 000 people, Cuba spends 671$ (pretty much a tenth) per person for a life expectancy of 78 and 59 doctors per 10 000. The UK Spends 2815 for more nurses per person, more hospital beds per persona and a longer life expectancy by two years.

    The system before Obamacare is just not working at all, private ownership of health care has failed an has been abandoned by basically all developed nations.

       http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/ … hs-a-year/
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog … orld-obama
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_p … _life_lost

    1. Marisa Wright profile image97
      Marisa Wrightposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      It's hard to explain to Americans just how horrified most Australians, Brits and Scandinavians are at the heartlessness of Americans.

      When we listen to the news about Obamacare, the message we're hearing loud and clear from Americans is:  "if you're poor and sick, it's your own fault, so you can just suffer - or die".

      1. Josak profile image61
        Josakposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Agreed, in most developed countries it is unfathomable that you might die for lack of health care.

      2. innersmiff profile image72
        innersmiffposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Good day from an un-horrified Brit!

      3. innersmiff profile image72
        innersmiffposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Good day from an un-horrified Brit!

        1. John Holden profile image59
          John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Yeah, I bet you're one of the ones begging Cameron to introduce American style health care to the UK!

          1. innersmiff profile image72
            innersmiffposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            No I'm begging for freedom and personal responsibility.

            1. John Holden profile image59
              John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              How ever good the health care in any country is, it's only as good as the recipient.
              I'm perfectly free to take responsibility for the number of cigarettes that I smoke and the amount of booze that I pour down my neck.
              And I didn't have to beg anybody for that freedom.

              1. innersmiff profile image72
                innersmiffposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Exactly, as liberty promotes. I wouldn't suggest compelling another to pay for your bad health decisions, however.

                1. John Holden profile image59
                  John Holdenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  But I've worked for around forty five years, most of them in good health, never seeing even my doctor. That's about 45 years when I've willingly been paying for the health care of others.

                  You know, it's a bit like driving your car, you hope that you never have to claim on your compulsory insurance but you feel more secure knowing that if you do you won't end up bankrupt.

            2. Josak profile image61
              Josakposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Tell me, how much do you have in your bank account, if you were hit by a car tomorrow would you have enough to pay your medical bills? Upwards of 200 000$ sometimes.

              I had a rock load fall on my arm when I was working as a miner, total cost of repair was more than 150 000$ if the company had not been forced to pay it I would have lost my home, my car, everything I had ever worked for (not to mention most of the use of my arm) in one fell swoop due to no fault of my own. This is the reality you want for your country?

      4. profile image0
        Sooner28posted 6 years agoin reply to this

        It is what it is.  America is really slow to change.  We'll get there eventually though.

        1. Josak profile image61
          Josakposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          I hope so.

          1. profile image0
            Sooner28posted 6 years agoin reply to this

            I am optimistic!  As long as we don't destroy ourselves before, Justice can win in the end.

    2. profile image0
      JaxsonRaineposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Potential life lost, when taking into consideration America's obesity and diabetic rates, shouldn't be much of a surprise. Those two factors account for a tremendous amount of deaths, and have nothing to do with healthcare.

      You have to always ask if something is correlation or causation.

      1. Josak profile image61
        Josakposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        As mentioned in another forum we were discussing in a few minutes ago, several countries doing better on the years lost index have obesity problems just as severe, like Australia and New Zealand or the UK.

        1. profile image0
          JaxsonRaineposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          No.


          Obesity
          United States - 35.7%
          Australia - 20%
          United Kingdom - 23%

          1. profile image0
            JaxsonRaineposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            ?

            1. Josak profile image61
              Josakposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              http://www.theage.com.au/national/nine- … -2tjv.html
              http://www.japantoday.com/category/worl … ion-us-2nd

              According to both these sources Australia is the "fattest" nation in the world, what are your sources?

              1. profile image0
                JaxsonRaineposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Overweight is not the same thing as obese.

                http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/ … ve/obesity

                1. profile image0
                  JaxsonRaineposted 6 years agoin reply to this
                  1. Josak profile image61
                    Josakposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    Our sources seem to contradict each other but it seems to be that the difference must be relatively small.

  2. Cagsil profile image81
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    ? roll

    1. Josak profile image61
      Josakposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      ?

      1. Cagsil profile image81
        Cagsilposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Didn't expect you to understand. hmm

        1. Josak profile image61
          Josakposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          My mind reading skills are weak, I was expecting an actual reasoned response to the facts but instead I got emoticons tongue

          1. Cagsil profile image81
            Cagsilposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Everyone wants Health Care. Everyone can get Health Care.

            I have no issues with Obama placing specific restrictions on Health Care Industry as such as "no one can be denied Health Care".

            I have a problem with the Government getting involved with the Health Care Industry, because as in the past, the Government has proven it cannot handle it's own house, much less anything else. These people are so pathetically stupid, it's not even funny.

            Secondly, in order to pay for it? It won't be paid for at all. Universal Health Care actually stays intact(providing the Supreme Court allows it to), then the U.S. will be dead as a Nation inside of 2-5 years.

            It will crush the only thing holding up the Economy presently. When it does this, then you will complain that it was corruption in Government which made things and you would be partially correct, but not in the frame of mind you would think.

            There's already corruption in Government before Universal Health Care and has for the longest time. So, now you want the Government to manage a Health Care System for every single citizen in the Country? Completely absurd.

            The fact that people are forced to buy products from other companies, paying their ridiculous prices because we don't have a choice in the manner. As these prices continue to go upward, as with Gas, Food and other things also increasing in pricing, you want to force people to buy(using taxes?) to pay into a system a corrupt Government will operate/govern/manage?

            You know, it is already absurd(Government) and you want to make it more absurd, instead of making it better.

            1. Josak profile image61
              Josakposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              If pretty much all the other developed nations in the world can handle it I am sure our government can too. As shown Universal health care is often much much cheaper than non universal health care, just look at the stats I posted above on the matter, the health care system in the US is ridiculously expensive. According to treasury expenditure estimates and independent economic review Obamacare would actually save money.

              1. Cagsil profile image81
                Cagsilposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Then you're obviously not paying attention to the things the Government already fails at.
                Yes, it's ridiculously expensive, but don't blame just Health Care Industry because it's NOT the only cause to prices.

                1. profile image0
                  JaxsonRaineposted 6 years agoin reply to this
                  1. Cagsil profile image81
                    Cagsilposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    roll

                  2. Josak profile image61
                    Josakposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    Yeah doctors get paid less in countries with public health care, but strangely have a higher job satisfaction.

  3. Bob Zermop profile image90
    Bob Zermopposted 6 years ago

    Universal healthcare is an excellent idea. It just shouldn't be mandated by the government.

    Of course i support healthcare being make available to everyone; who wouldn't? Yeah, I'm willing to pay more taxes so my fellow Americans don't die from easily curable causes that aren't their fault. Are some of you far right-ers really not willing to do that?

    But mandated by the gov? How can you justify that? The private sector will provide competition, improving both the quality of the gov healthcare and healthcare in the private sector. Yes, it's expensive, but I guess freedom is. Prioritize.

    1. profile image0
      JaxsonRaineposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      There are ways to make it work, but adding trillions more to our debt isn't the answer.

      America could go bankrupt the way we are going. We could turn into Italy or Greece. Our spending has GOT to change or we're going to be in much more pain than we are now.

      1. Bob Zermop profile image90
        Bob Zermopposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I agree. Reform should take place slowly and carefully, keeping in mind reality and priorities. But before we start anything, we need a clear goal in mind. That's the major problem we Americans can't seem to pull together as a country. IS IT SO DAMN DIFFICULT??? big_smile

        I smile, but it's true.

      2. Josak profile image61
        Josakposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        According to Treasury and independent review Obamacare would save money, not cost money.

        1. Bob Zermop profile image90
          Bob Zermopposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Money is not the only or to me even the major concern. the mandate is the single biggest problem I have with Obamacare. Can't think of a reason good enough to justify that even coming close to outweighing the loss of liberty.

    2. kerryg profile image86
      kerrygposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Most single payer systems I know of have government health care available for everyone that covers pretty much anything an average person could need, and then private insurance for those willing to pay extra for extra perks. That seems like the most reasonable system to me.

      1. eternals3ptember profile image60
        eternals3ptemberposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Yeah I don't know why people assume that it's meant to force you into some plan you don't want. National healthcare wouldn't obliterate private industry, it would just be there as a net for those who don't have private.

      2. Bob Zermop profile image90
        Bob Zermopposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        This seems fair to me, though I think it would be far better if the gov healthcare wasn't mandated, though if it was of decent quality I wouldn't think many would refuse it.

        1. Josak profile image61
          Josakposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          In Australia they have full public care for everyone automatically and the option of going to semi private care if you can afford it for the luxuries like single occupant rooms and such. I think that is the best system.

          1. Bob Zermop profile image90
            Bob Zermopposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Is the public health care mandated? like said previously, this is the biggest problem i have with this.

            1. Josak profile image61
              Josakposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Mandated? I am not sure how it meets the definition, It's just automatic, any Australian citizen or permanent resident can go to a hospital, clinic or doctor and get free health care. That is included in their taxes. The obvious problem is that if is not mandated/automatic then people who do not pay for it will have no cover which means we have to be OK with letting people die because they did not pay for insurance otherwise no one will get it and the whole system falls apart.

              There is no loss of liberty just a small tax hike.

            2. Bob Zermop profile image90
              Bob Zermopposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              What I meant was "is worker's insurance necessarily provided solely by the gov?" I never knew that about austrailia's healthcare, very cool. Definitely what we should aim for here in the States and in the world in general, but will take time to pull that together. Semi-quoting someone from above - would happen faster if we didn't waste money killing others. just saying.

              1. Josak profile image61
                Josakposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Yeah I shudder to think that we could have accomplished health care wise with the money we spent in Iraq and Afghanistan. I know New Zealand also has the same health care system, I believe several others do too.

              2. Bob Zermop profile image90
                Bob Zermopposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                The problem with getting that here is the States is that we're not in a position to get there anytime soon, and I don't trust our gov to hand them my health. So we 're left with just going at reform slowly.

                1. psycheskinner profile image83
                  psycheskinnerposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  That's quite the condemnation of US government. Let poor people have no healthcare at all, rather than everyone have a system run by the government. Makes sense only if the government is completely incompetent (arguable) and you are not poor or otherwise disqualified from insurance (which is largely a matter of fate).

                  1. Bob Zermop profile image90
                    Bob Zermopposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    No, much better than forcing some to go without is to give them the option of public healthcare, as pitiful as that might be right now, needs lots of improvement. I mentioned the gov's incompetence as further reason against a mandate.

  4. profile image0
    JaxsonRaineposted 6 years ago

    "As it turns out, Americans have a better survival rate for 13 of the
    16 most common cancers. Among men, an American has nearly
    a 20-percent better chance of living for five years after being
    diagnosed with cancer than his European counterpart. American
    women stand a 7.2-percent better chance of living for five years
    after a cancer diagnosis than their European counterparts. "

    "And most states force residents to buy one-size-fits-all insurance
    packages that include all sorts of services that only a small slice
    of the population needs. The average state imposes 38 mandates on an individual health insurance policy. In 2007, there
    were 1,901 different mandates nationwide. These extraneous
    mandates increase the price of basic insurance by as much as
    50 percent."

    http://www.pacificresearch.org/docLib/2 … _Myths.pdf

    1. Josak profile image61
      Josakposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      This is getting way too specific, it's clear that overall US health care is a disaster the WHO has affirmed this. Not to mention that our health care costs close to three times as much as the Average European health care.

    2. Bob Zermop profile image90
      Bob Zermopposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Have to say, agree with Josak. specific stats don't capture America's healthcare system in general, which in comparison to the world is really quite pitiful. I don't think, no matter in details whether there are disagreements, that AMerican healthcare could do with some improvment. Just trying to find out where we should go.

  5. Bob Zermop profile image90
    Bob Zermopposted 6 years ago

    Pulling together a couple of threads from above, it seems like most people who've checked in on this forum are basically in agreement about the goal. All people should have basic healthcare available to them and the government should be the one to provide that healthcare, though in the process of creating an Austrailian-esque healthcare-for-all society worker's healthcare should not be mandated by the gov. We should aim for this by prioritizing and cutting down unnecessary funding (I'm thinking wars). Disagreements or tweaks?

  6. profile image59
    geordmcposted 6 years ago

    As it stands if you are a single white male you won't qualify for healthcare whether you need it or not. I know this to be a fact since there is a three year waiting list in my state. If some one has children under 18 they will move the single man down to the bottom of the list.

 
working