What makes so many men think that women owe them sex?

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   TessSchlesingerposted 3 years ago

   Like many other women, I can add my name to the 'me too' movement. I faced sexual harassment for a good 40 years.
   
   Harvey Weinstein is far from being the only jerk that thinks his fame and fortune is reason enough to rape and harass women sexually.
   
   QUOTE: “We believe the evidence will show that the defendant used his power and influence to gain access to his victims and then commit violent crimes against them,” Lacey said in a statement. Lacey’s office created an entertainment industry sex crimes taskforce in the wake of the 2017 Weinstein scandal and the #MeToo reckoning in Hollywood. If convicted, Weinstein faces up to 28 years in prison, prosecutors said. He is expected to be arraigned at a later date.
   
   https://www.theguardian.com/film/2020/j … rges-metoo
   
   Incels (involuntary celibate males) have said that they see no reason why beautiful women shouldn't be forced to give turns to every man. They seriously believe that because men have 'urges,' women should open their legs to them.
   
   QUOTE: In the past few years, a subset of straight men calling themselves “incels” have constructed a violent political ideology around the injustice of young, beautiful women refusing to have sex with them. These men often subscribe to notions of white supremacy. They are, by their own judgment, mostly unattractive and socially inept. (They frequently call themselves “subhuman.”) They’re also diabolically misogynistic. “Society has become a place for worship of females and it’s so f***ing wrong, they’re not Gods they are just a f***ing c**-dumpster,” a typical rant on an incel message board reads. The idea that this misogyny is the real root of their failures with women does not appear to have occurred to them.
   
   https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultu … the-incels
   
   When I was a Christian, I told a pastor how distressed I was over men constantly approaching me with their lewd suggestions. His response? "You must expect that and appreciate that. You are a beautiful woman."
   
   Yup.
   
   Why do you think so many men think it's okay to force their 'attentions' on women?

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      dashingscorpioposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Incels actually hate women!
      
      Oftentimes they are socially inept or choose to pursue women who are out of their league. They find it difficult accepting rejection and moving on.
      Many of them con themselves into believing they are "nice guys" and therefore they are {entitled to have sex} with women of their choosing.
      
      As you noted it's also common for them to subscribe to white supremacy beliefs and nothing angers them more than seeing white women with men of color. They feel they're being overlooked for something less than them.
      
      As for the rest of men in most countries men are taught that (they) should be the aggressors who pursue, woo, court, or seduce women rather than expecting women to come onto them.
      
      Perception is reality. There's a thin line between romantic and sexual interest. Generally men only ask women out whom they find "attractive".
      
      Women on the other hand might say yes to going out on a date with men they have NO romantic interest in simply because they have no plans.
      
      This can lead to miscues because some men believe women also only say "yes" to dates because they are romantically/sexually attracted as well.
      
      Every woman should know in advance there is a reason why a man chose (her) instead of the woman with two teeth, creator skin, and a unibrow.
      At some point he (hopes) to have sex with women he dates!
      
      It's not as if money was burning a hole in his pocket and he just wanted to go out with ANY woman. Knowing this can help women decide yes/no.
      
      It's been said men fall in love with their eyes and women fall in love with their ears. However with age comes wisdom: Men learn everything that glitters is not gold and women learn actions speak louder than words.
      
      I suspect there will always be hormonal differences between the genders. Teenage boys are always going to be looking forward to not being virgins.
      Some girls/women are just as into having sex as men.
      
      Because the onus is on (men) to initiate sex in most societies and very few women are going to ask them to have sex the man is expected to risk being rejected. Ultimately in most instances it's up to the woman if sex happens.
      
      Having sexual urges and engaging in flirtatious banter are not in of itself a horrible thing. Your pastor made a valid point, being a beautiful woman is likely to draw a lot of male attention whether it's wanted or not.
      
      How is a man to know whether he's got a shot or not unless he makes a play? It's not as if beautiful women walk around hitting on men!
      Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Trying/risking rejection isn't a sin.
      
      Not every girl gets asked to dance, go out to dinner, or is proposed to.
      I imagine there's unattractive lonely women who'd gladly swap places.
      One person's "curse" is another person's "blessing" I suppose.
      
      Men shouldn't be demonized for pursuing women.
      Women shouldn't be demonized for rejecting men.
      Each of us is entitled to have our own dating/mate selection process.
      
      It's when a woman has made it clear she's not interested and men refuse to move on is when things have gone too far. No one should be forced!
      
      Men and women will probably never behave and think alike.
      
      
      
      

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         TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         I disagree that because one is a beautiful woman, one should be open to every Dick, Tom, and Harry.
         
         Do you have any idea how frustrating it is having 30 or 40 men EVERY SINGLE DAY OF YOUR LIFE hit on you?
         
         Please believe me, it's not pleasant. And some of them get extremely angry when you say no.
         
         How does a man know if a woman is interested? She'll let him know.
         
         In my experience, some men read the cues better than others. It's a matter of education.
         
         It's true that a woman will go out with a man because he asked her, and she has nothing better to do.
         
         It's also true that when a woman says no, he will beg and tell her he only wants to be friends. I believed that for a long time until it became apparent three times that it was a lie. They were hoping that if they were friends, it would lead to more.
         
         I don't think the fact that if a woman is gorgeous that it gives men the right to approach her. I think etiquette was developed for a reason.
         
         In my youth, etiquette still existed. The 70s killed it.
         
         That still doesn't answer the question why a great many men force themselves on women, and the more powerful and moneyed they are, the more they think it's okay to do that.
         
         You ask "How is a man to know whether he's got a shot or not unless he makes a play?"
         
         Because if he is not her social and intellectual equal, then she clearly will not be interested. Because if he doesn't bring as much to the table as she does, she is not interested.  Because if she isn't looking at him in a way which sends a message, she isn't interested.
         
         The idea that he has nothing to lose if he asks her might sit very well with men, but believe me, at a certain level of beauty, some women begin to hate men for their constant aggression.
         
         I'm one of them.
         
         I will never forgive men for a lifetimes' worth of harassment.

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            dashingscorpioposted 3 years agoin reply to this

            I did write a lengthy response but for some reason it appears to be deleted.
            From what I can tell, you and I are not actually in disagreement.
            
            A man should move on after being told "no".
            
            As I stated; "No one should be forced!"
            We all have a right to choose who we will spend our time with.
            In a world with over 7 Billion people rejection just means: Next!
            
            Harassment like so many other things are in the eye of the beholder.
            Several years ago I did a radio show with a female host who told me her deceased husband asked her out (10 times) before she agreed to go out with him. They were happily married for 50 years.
            
            She was from an era that believed men should "work" for a yes.
            Today most women would call that harassment or stalking!
            
            "I don't think the fact that if a woman is gorgeous that it gives men the right to approach her. I think etiquette was developed for a reason."
            
            If no one ever initiated a conversation there would be no courtships.
            Approaching someone isn't the problem. Not moving on after rejection is.
            
            There are also women who complain about men being "too intimidated" by their beauty or success to approach them and list it as the reason why they're not in relationships. I suppose we all have our crosses to bear.

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               mustangman1posted 3 years agoin reply to this

               Welcome to Hubpages 
               
               They are all in favor of freedom of speech, until the read or hear something they don't like.

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                  TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                  Freedom of speech is the right of a citizen to say something about the government without being arrested or killed.
                  
                  Freedom of speech has nothing to do with social etiquette or news media banning certain forms of speech. Nor has it anything to do with some people not wanting to talk or hear others. We have the right of association.

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                     mustangman1posted 3 years agoin reply to this

                     Nor has it anything to do with some people not wanting to talk or hear others.
                     
                     Oh but it does.  There is no law that says you cannot be offended.  And just because you do not like it means there is anything wrong with the statement.  The statement could be offensive or just a view you don't like.  A perfect example of this is religion.  All claim to be true, but that is BS.
                     
                     Because you don't like what I say, doesn't mean others wouldn't want to see it.  This is the danger of censorship, you select only writing that you like.   Then why have a section to post in?

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                        TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                        That's not what I'm saying.
                        
                        I often tell people on social media that I'm not interested in their social media and I subsequently block them (my right of association).
                        
                        I cannot be forced to listen to them if I don't want to listen to them.
                        
                        If others want to listen to them, that's their right of association.
                        
                        Also, if you understand that the brain chemistry of 95% of people is physiologically that of a follower, and that followers are easily influenced by words, then you know just how dangerous advertising is. Advertising is just a form of legally acceptable brainwashing. Social media is a powerful form of brainwashing.
                        
                        Religion is is the ultimate form of brainwashing.
                        
                        When you say that people should be allowed to say anything, you're basically allowing humanity to be brainwashed to do what a few people in power want them to do.
                        
                        There is nothing sacrosanct about human speech. We don't allow people to do exactly what they like. Why should we allow people to say exactly what they like. Words have as much power as any weapon of mass destruction.

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               TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

               I'm 68. I grew up in South Africa. At that time, the only way you met people of the opposite sex was by formal introduction.
               
               I honestly still prefer that.
               
               I will never talk to any male who is not formally introduced to me. It's called a pick up line, and in my culture, at that time, it simply was not done.
               
               I do realize that today it's the norm, and that it has been a norm for a very long time. I simply will not associate with men who approach me without a formal introduction. I have a very low opinion of them.
               
               I stopped dating when I was 25, and for the most part I have been on my own. I realize that is not everybody's choice.
               
               I run as fast as I can when any man shows any interest in me. I have certainly never moaned about men being too intimidated by 'whatever.' I do know that you are right, though.
               
               This is unique to me, of course. But it has nothing to do with my question.
               
               I'm interested in why so many men (not only rich men) think that they have a right to approach any women they are interested in. Examples are whistling at women in the streets. Saying hello to them or passing comments as they walk past, etc. These are all approaches.

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                  dashingscorpioposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                  "I'm interested in why so many men (not only rich men) think that they have a right to approach any women they are interested in. Examples are whistling at women in the streets. {Saying hello to them}.."
                  
                  While whistling at women and blowing a car horn at them are immature "cat calls" I have to say that simply saying "hello" is should be a far cry from being offensive to anyone.
                  
                  Speaking to strangers isn't anything "new". Everyone has done it.
                  I assume it's okay with you if two women say hello to one another.
                  And yet you may not know her sexual orientation or interest in you.
                  Thanking someone for holding a door open and so on are courtesies.
                  
                  Although I have very little knowledge of South Africa customs and mores.
                  I'm guessing when you were in your 20s in the 1970s there were bars, nightclubs, and discos where young single people went to meet new people for cocktails, dancing, and romance.
                  
                  In the U.S. Playboy Magazine begin publishing in 1959, there was a sexual revolution in the 1960s, Rock & Roll, counter drug culture, hippies, birth control pills made it possible for women to have sex on par with men without the fear of getting pregnant, young couples began cohabitating without having gotten married, women began burning their bras and demanding equality not only in the workplace but in all areas of life including removing the "double standards" when it came to sexual behavior. In the 70s there was the disco craze which was featured in movies like "Saturday Night Fever".
                  
                  I guess I find it somewhat hard to believe South Africa was "left behind" and untouched by what was going on with the youth in the U.S. and Europe.
                  Unless you lived in a small village I would think it would be hard for you to have not seen these major changes between genders in the 60s and 70s.
                  
                  Out of curiosity I just did a Google search to see if there were online dating sites and apps in South Africa and to my surprise there are!
                  
                  Single women post photos and create profiles for (unknown men) to contact them for possible dates!  Apparently things aren't much different there. Many women are indeed open to having unknown men contact them. https://www.visahunter.com/articles/the … th-africa/
                  
                  I also saw an article where the male strippers Chippendales tour appeared in South Africa in the past as well. Apparently some women there are willing to pay to see men strip. Maybe it's not all that different from the U.S.
                  
                  You have every right not to want to date or not enjoy speaking to men without a formal introduction. However if we as a society begin to call saying "hello" a form of sexual harassment we're going off the deep end.
                  
                  Even in the U.S. there has been somewhat of in-battle between groups of (women). There are the "Traditionalist women" & "Progressive women".
                  
                  The "traditionalist women" would love to turn the clock back to the 1800s in many ways. They enjoyed the formality of courtship and being seen as "special". Then there are the "progressive women" who want to be seen and thought of as being "equal" to men in (all areas of life) in including having premarital sex, paying for dates, dressing provocatively and not being judged. Progressive women in 2020 may initiate flirting and dating or even propose marriage.
                  
                  They don't want to return to the passive ways of the past.
                  Traditionalist women feel the progressive women ruined things.
                  
                  {Men have no idea which type of woman they are encountering!}
                  
                  The majority of "baby boomers" (our generation) born in the late 1940s thru early 60s are the ones who pushed society to make many of the socially acceptable changes we now see in place.
                  Each generation is socially more liberal than the previous one.

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                     TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                     In the 70s, there were certainly bars, discos, and pubs, etc. One was escorted there by a man. And one did not go there to meet other people. Or at least, the people I grew up with didn't. 
                     
                     I have seldom been out in a group of women - in fact, I don't think I have ever been out with a group of women. I would never, never, never go to any place to meet people.
                     
                     In South Africa, I certainly knew about what was happening in the rest of the world. I thought hippies, etc. were very weird people. I went to an all girl's school for 12 years. We were not permitted to socialize. We stayed inside the school walls, and if we set foot outside, we were expelled. It was almost like a nunnery.
                     
                     I never spoke to other women (or anybody) as I probably had severe developmental disabilities.
                     
                     But even so, today I know many women of my age who would not go out in a group of women, and who would only be escorted by a man to various places.
                     
                     A man's intent when he says hello is the same as that of a woman. Women do not walk by you in the streets and say hello. Or say things like "Hello, baby." It's the way it is said.
                     
                     I have never wanted to been as 'special.' And as I've spent the last few years reading chick literature, I've learnt a great deal about what my gender wants. Romantic women's lit outsells every other form. Women, it appears, want to be married to rich, powerful men (the hero is always rich and powerful), and he always thinks she is the most beautiful woman on earth.
                     
                     I find that hilarious. And stupid.
                     
                     No wonder men have such a battle meeting women's expectations. I've read the research as well. Women want rich men.
                     
                     I would never pay for a date. If someone asks me out, they pay.
                     
                     Funny thing about dressing provocatively. I always used to wear cleavage. When I arrived in the States, men thought that was a message to them. When I realized that, I stopped wearing it. I was absolutely disgusted that a form of dressing elegantly was thought to be a sexual message. I have never dressed to attract men. I dress for the sheer elegance and beauty of it. If you do some research, you'll find that women dress for women.
                     
                     That habit was probably formed during my school days where there were no boys or men about. All our teachers were women. I grew up in completely female surroundings. However, women loved clothing, and I suppose I came from rich enough surroundings to wear the world's most expensive name brands. My mother also had incredible taste. So every evening, when we wore civies, I would get lots of compliments from other girls. That's why I always dressed beautifully. It has nothing to do with dressing provocatively for men.
                     
                     I loathe the changes that my generation made to society. I never wanted to work and have a career. I simply wanted to get married and be a housewife. It never happened.
                     
                     Yes, each generation is socially more liberal than the previous one, and they're all on antidepressants, believe in non-existent gods to forgive their sins (what is a sin, anyway), and vote for people like Trump. The fact that they're more liberal and and increasingly less educated isn't a happy thing.
                     
                     I don't wish to live in a society where I cannot conduct my life, and I am definitely glad that I can conduct my own life. I just don't want to be approached by men who have sex on their mind.
                     
                     When I was my mid 40s, there were three guys who said that they just wanted to be friends. I had explained to each of them that I wasn't interested in them. I was glad for the friendship. When one is on the autistic spectrum and the victim of chronic abuse, and one has never had any friends, then it's a truly welcome offer.
                     
                     At some point, each of them asked me if we could 'move on to the next level.' My jaw dropped. I just looked at these guys and said, "You said you just wanted to be friends. There is no next level." That was the end of our 'friendship.'
                     
                     I have never attempted to be friends with men since then. I now know they are liars.
                     
                     When I came to America, every single man I went out with in the first few months, started talking about sex on the first date and asking me if I was first date girl or a third date girl. I didn't know what they were talking about and asked.
                     
                     When I was told that it meant did I sleep with a man on the first date or the third date, I was horrified.
                     
                     In any event, I decided I would never date an American man. The vulgarity was beyond me.
                     
                     I don't like talking about sex. It's personal. One man told me that if I wore cleavage that it was a signal that I wanted sex. I was appalled. It's just pretty, that's all.
                     
                     I deeply resent the fact that men see me as a woman and a sexual being before they see me (if they ever see me) as anything else. I finally understood what women were talking about when they said they were seen as a sex object.
                     
                     To be honest, I had some of this when I lived in the UK as well. However, it wasn't as loud, or maybe I just didn't notice. I know that one man told me, in all seriousness (the father of my daugher's friend), that he wasn't interested in a relationship with me, but was interested in sex. I didn't even know what to say to him. I was just quiet.
                     
                     Then, at some event, a year or two later, he said to me that 'the rules' don't work. I didn't know what he was talking about. He kept saying that. I eventually found out by asking someone that it was a book advising women to pay hard to get.
                     
                     This is what he thought my disinterest and aversion to his thoughts meant - that I was playing hard to get.
                     
                     I do not even remotely pretend to understand men. I do know they make me feel like a whore. They seem to think I must be happy if they call me beautiful, and that this will somehow soften me up for what they are thinking.
                     
                     I am not a piece of meat for men to take out their sexual needs on, and I cannot look at a man in real life without being very wary of them. I keep my distance, and I would never, never, never, at this point of my life, ever allow myself in anyway whatsoever to allow them to become friends with me - except on the internet.

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      Fred G Sanfordposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I don't know. What makes some women think men owe them money?

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         TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         I have absolutely no idea. The number of women who married my father for money was sad. Evil stepmothers. And he could never see it.
         
         A guy married my mother for money as well. Jerk.
         
         I once read a study that women prefer a good looking man to men with money. I would go with that.
         
         That wasn't the question, though.

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            Fred G Sanfordposted 3 years agoin reply to this

            It's the same kind of question, and one you are probably more qualified to find the answer to.

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               TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

               No, it's not. When I grew up, men did not hit on women. It would have been considered improper. There was a very definite etiquette. And women have always married for money. Marriages were frequently arranged, and the ideal was always a rich man.
               
               This 'romance' bit and marrying for love is a very new concept - about 150 years old at the most. In some cultures today, marriages are still arranged, and if the guy can't provide for the women, there is no marriage.
               
               In South Africa, where I currently live, the women's family still has to provide a bridal price.

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                  Fred G Sanfordposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, actually it is. Women marry for money, men marry for sex. That's why rich & famous men don't need to marry. So once again, when women stop expecting money from men, perhaps men will stop expecting sex from women. But there are plenty of women who object to any gender roles or expectations being placed on women while simultaneously placing expectations and gender roles on men.

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                     TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                     Interesting comment.
                     
                     Men are driven biologically (testosterone) to want sex at a far greater intensity than women do.
                     
                     Women will stop wanting men for money when they are paid the same amount and have the same type of power. In South Africa, there are matriarchal societies. It's interesting to watch.
                     
                     Women needing money is a a result of poverty. The only thing that would ever get me to marry a man was if he could provide for me. It's not fun living of $300 a month. However, I basically couldn't bring myself to do that because I have never been able to sell myself. I would rather be poor and have my independence than marry a wealthy man and have to put up with him.

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                        wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                        Can't speak for South Africa, but in America women are paid the same as men for the same job.  While it is true that the average wage for women is less than for men, that's because they tend to congregate in the lower paid jobs - choose a higher paying career and they won't see that.

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                        Fred G Sanfordposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                        What wilderness said. In the U.S. the wage gap is largely a myth. Women don't seek out rich men simply because of poverty...there are plenty of women who just want to live off of someone else. And then there could be biological reasons too, although we don't like to admit they exist.

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                           TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                           Obama did some research and found that men and women were equally paid. However, women didn't negotiate as hard for higher wages, and they also took less stressful jobs.
                           
                           That is true.
                           
                           However, I am writing from a global perspective as I never live in one country for long. I have been in South Africa for four years. In two months, I go back to the UK, then to Portugal. I come back to South Africa for a week. I then leave to go back to the US for three months. Then I go back to South Africa for four months. Then I go back to Europe (probably Portugal or Spain) to live.
                           
                           The poorest section of the population internationally, including America, are single women (divorced) with children. If they don't find someone to help pay the bills, they live in poverty.
                           
                           My income is about $300 per month. I'm fortunate that I have a sister and a daughter to help me. I would never, never, never take a penny from a man. I never have, and I never will. I supported my ex husband and then divorced him because he didn't contribute to the home.
                           
                           He thought I should work because he wasn't very good at it.
                           
                           And, yes, there were time in my life when I earned a lot of money. I never stayed long, though. The sexual harassment and malice was too stressful and upsetting.
                           
                           So, back to the point.  Women have children. They cannot look after a house, raise children, and hold down a stressful high end job that earns sufficient money to provide for them.
                           
                           So, yes, women marry for money. They look for men with money because the purpose of dating is to marry (believe that or not). While men might only be interested in sex, women also give sex in order to find marriage, and marriage to a man who can provide for them is essential for the sake of survival.
                           
                           That said.
                           
                           This is off topic. I understand that men without money are frustrated because women aren't interested in them - particularly if they are not that attractive.
                           
                           The question I asked is why men think it's their right to hit on women that are just minding their own business. It's like sales calls. They call you at all times of the night in order to sell their goods - as if their goods and needs must come at your expense, and it's their right.

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                              wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                              Men "hit on women" because the culture has trained them to do so.  If society had trained women to hit on men, and men to sit quietly until they did, they would be doing it instead.

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                                 TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                                 Thank you. That's the first decent answer I have had from you in the four years I have been on this site.
                                 
                                 So, essentially, men are socialized to do so. And men are not taught to be aware of whether a woman is interested or not.
                                 
                                 Okay, so now, although I don't get much of it anymore, there's still a reasonable amount of it in my life.
                                 
                                 How do I stop it.

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                                    GA Andersonposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                                    mmphff, mmphff...
                                    
                                    GA

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                                    savvydatingposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                                    Deleted
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                              wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                              "The poorest section of the population internationally, including America, are single women (divorced) with children. If they don't find someone to help pay the bills, they live in poverty."
                              
                              I don't know that I would agree with this outside of some hard statistics.  I would think that single mothers, that had never been married, are on the average in worse straits than divorcees.  Far too many have never had a job and have no salable skills; that's going to tip the average considerably.

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                                 TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                                 Then I suggest you go and do the research. Opinions are worthless - including my own. I only write things that can be shown to be true. If there is no evidence for it, and if there isn't a link from a reliable source, I accept it. And I change my view when adequate evidence is provided.
                                 
                                 But I do not have one bit of respect for opinions. You either provide reliable academic accepted evidence or I don't accept anything you say.

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                                    wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                                    If it is true, then show it.  I am not responsible for showing that your opinions are factual.  We agree: you either provide reliable academic evidence or I don't accept anything you say and you provided nothing at all.
                                    
                                    Make sure your source concerns itself with divorcees vs never married mothers.

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      Stephen Traylorposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Tess, I couldn't agree with you more.  I am sorry for the unfortunate answer that pastor gave you.  But I believe that for many, if not most men, sex is a privilege to be earned through relationship, and from my point of view, marriage.  Women are to be respected, not ex-pected.

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         TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you. In my later years, through the web, I have become very good friends with a good few males - just through conversation. So I'm well aware that what you say is true.
         
         In real life, I still cannot bear for men to come near me.
         
         I know that for the latter part of my life, women do not understand why I won't date or get involved with men. It is totally beyond them. When I was living in San Diego, Jewish Community Services kept trying to hook me up with men saying things like "You are so pretty that you can easily find a man." Actually, I've even had the owner of the hotel where I currently stay say that to me.
         
         Nobody can understand why I won't go near men.
         
         It's essentially because I've never known men to like me. They just wanted to sleep with me because of my looks.
         
         That happened enough times for me not to trust men. And, yes, there was (and is) something wrong with me. I' austistic - high functioning - and I faced terrible abuse growing up, so I had no social skills. All men wanted to do was sleep with me.
         
         Nobody liked me as a person/human.
         
         I think it's terrible that it doesn't occur to men that if you're going to sleep with a woman, you need at least to like her or treat her as a human - not a thing.

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            Stephen Traylorposted 3 years agoin reply to this

            To say nothing of like, loving you, serving you, and respecting and deferring your leadership and relational skills.  Perhaps you will bump into a man whose life is all about you, instead of him.  Look for "shy" men who are afraid to approach you because of your beauty, who have a more passive sexual identity - that is they are not interested in making you theirs, but are more interested in adoring you and serving you, but men who are capably in a career.  I know because I am such a man, but I am married to a beautiful Woman who is fulfilled and happy in the relationship.

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               TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

               Oh, I'm 68, so I'm not beautiful anymore. It's very good to be anonymous now. My life is over in that regard.
               
               I'm just curious about why so many men think it's okay to push themselves on to women where there is no invitation from the women, why they think that it's okay.

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                  Stephen Traylorposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't really know.  I can't relate to it. My sexual self-image is framed in such a way that Women are to be revered and respected.  I have no frame of reference to understand pushing myself on to a Woman. That can only come through invitation.

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                  Stephen Traylorposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                  In all your years, have you not bumped into any men who were docile and didn't approach you, but just seemed in awe and easy to manipulate?

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                     TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                     I don't particularly like people who are docile, who are easy to manipulate, and who are in awe of me. Too weak.
                     
                     I like human beings who are rational, strong charactered, not shy, give other people space, don't impose themselves on others, don't try to influence others, highly informed/educated, and who can speak truth to power without fear. I like people who can sum up people accurately and fast.
                     
                     I don't need people to be in awe of me, to adore me, or love me. I just need people not to invade my space, not to insult me, and not to harm me.
                     
                     Basically, the way I sum up both men and women is identical.
                     
                     Men who whistle at women in the streets, who create excuses to talk to women they 'want to get to know,' who mansplain in order to impress, who touch without permission, who squeeze your hand to death in order to make sure you understand their strength, who tease one in order to find out what you feel, etc. all step past acceptable lines.
                     
                     I find it very difficult to interact with weaker people.
                     
                     I know that some of those lines are acceptable to some women.
                     
                     They are not acceptable to me.

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               TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

               A women in London told me that my kind of looks knocked men for a loop, and that they couldn't see past them.
               
               I'm not looking for men. I will never go near a man again.
               
               I don't want a man to adore me or serve me. Ugh. I don't like anyone adoring me or serving me. That sounds needy. It's too much for me to carry.
               
               I like people who are independent, don't need me, just enjoy the topics we talk about.
               
               I went out with a guy in Houston, and he started laughing within 30 minutes to an hour. I asked him why he was laughing at me. He said he had never met another woman like me - that I talked about completely different things to other women.
               
               I asked him what other women spoke about. He said relationships, their children, family, etc. I can't imagine talking about things like that. What on earth for? They're boring. I'm certainly not interested in other people's relationships and their families. I don't know them.
               
               I want to talk about geology, climate change, economic systems, biology, and the sciences.

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   mustangman1posted 3 years ago

   Being male, I object to your statement.  I never thought any woman owed me sex.  If you are writing about rich a powerful men exerting their power to get sex that is something else.   But even this abuse of power usually has something of value the woman wants.  In Hollywood, it is being cast in a movie.  In the case of Donald Trump, it is access to his connections or maybe being a wife.   Do I think it is right?  There are a lot of things I don’t think are right, but exist.  For those men who rapped women, I have no sympathy for them or for what punishment they get.  They knew they were doing wrong, and now it is time to pay.  I will not defend rats.
   
   Your use of Incels to me is an exaggeration based upon a few extremists.   In any case, why do you care?  They are not interested in you or you in them.  They are the ones leaving you alone.  You should be praising then.  Your complaint is with the rest of the men in society.
   
   A writer to your article stated,” Women on the other hand might say yes to going out on a date with men they have NO romantic interest in simply because they have no plans.  It's not as if money was burning a hole in his pocket and he just wanted to go out with ANY woman.”
   
   I noticed you didn’t say a thing on this.  Why?  If you were interested in someone and you were footing the bill, wouldn’t you want to know if that person wanted to be with you vs going out because you were paying for it?   Where is integrity and honesty of women that you demand of men? 
   
   Concerning your second writing, I call BS.
   
   “Do you have any idea how frustrating it is having 30 or 40 men EVERY SINGLE DAY OF YOUR LIFE hit on you?”
   
   I will take the average of 35 X 365 x 40 = 511,000 men hit on you in 40 years.  That comes to 4.375 men hitting on you each hour of an 8 hour day.  You may have had the looks of Christine Brinkley when 20, but I highly doubt you have her looks at the age of 60. 
   To me, you sound like the professional woman full of herself.  You dated Alpha Males i.e. rich, dashing, influential, extremely handsome along with being arrogant, self-centered, rude and selfish.  You chased these men, who would not commit to you, while passing up “good men” because they did not meet your standards.
   
   Now, you are angry.  But rather than accept you are the cause of your unhappiness, it is men, especially those Alpha men who wouldn’t commit to you all the while ignoring or friend zoning the rest.

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      TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Wow.
      
      And you know this about me, because?
      
      The reason I haven't responded to anyone is because I live in a different time zone to you (the southern hemisphere), and I have only just opened my laptop now.
      
      I sound like a professional woman full of herself?
      
      Interesting
      
      I've been a croupier (roulette dealer), casino dealer (8 other games), receptionist, secretary, computer programmer, web designer, business to business sales rep, interior designer, decorator, writer, author, editor, buyer, credit controller, public relations officer, hotelier, business owner, invoice typist, administrator, head hunter, personnel consultant, and more things than I can think of. Which one was professional?
      
      Mostly I was struggling just to stay alive. I couldn't hold down any job because I was so unhappy with the constant sexual harassment and the bullying at work.
      
      I didn't know at the time that I had Asperger's syndrome (on the autistic spectrum). It was hell.
      
      I dropped out of the corporate environment in my mid 40s.
      
      At one point, my fear of men was so great that if they came into one yard of my presence, my entire body was shaking.
      
      So, if one goes to a club, or a dance, and you are there for three or four hours, and virtually ever man who asks you to dance is hitting on you, that mounts up in numbers. You might think that is pleasant, but remarks like "You're the kind of girl I want to put my * into" add up.
      
      
      But I'm really curious as to why you think I was a professional woman?
      
      Care to elucidate?

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         mustangman1posted 3 years agoin reply to this

         These words are yours as sad as they are.
         
         I stopped dating when I was 25, and for the most part I have been on my own.
         
         I run as fast as I can when any man shows any interest in me.
         
         In real life, I still cannot bear for men to come near me.
         
         It's essentially because I've never known men to like me. They just wanted to sleep with me because of my looks.
         
         And, yes, there was (and is) something wrong with me. I' autistic - high functioning - and I faced terrible abuse growing up, so I had no social skills. All men wanted to do was sleep with me.
         
         Nobody liked me as a person/human.
         
         With your writing, I now know of your background.   Why did I think you were a professional woman?  Some professional women are self-centered and think men find them very desirable, so they reject most men for years, only to be baffled as to why they are single later on in life.  Thus, the refrain, “Where are all the good men?”  You are not this woman.
         
         I can see where an unstable child hood along with being autistic, which makes interacting with people difficult and with stunning looks would make the person you are.  But I see no value in blaming men for your issues.  The vast majority of women want to be in a man’s company and vise verse.

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            TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

            Clearly, there is a misunderstanding somewhere.
            
            What has my being a 'professional woman' got to do with what I wrote.
            
            What has anything I wrote got to do with your response?
            
            It doesn't relate.
            
            You don't make sense.

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   Randy Godwinposted 3 years ago

   Perhaps because they paid for it beforehand. I assume you meant all women, even prostitutes?

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      TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      What are you talking about? Have I missed something?

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   Onusonusposted 3 years ago

   How about all the ladies who expect a free ride from men?

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      TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Agreed.
      
      But I'm not talking about ladies.
      
      And the fact that you are justifying the way men treat women by the way some women respond to men is not an answer.
      
      It has been socially acceptable (and the agreed upon method) for three or four millennia that women are the property of men, and that fathers look for the richest man in the tribe to look after their daughters.

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         Onusonusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         I am going to talk about the ladies. I see tons of women always taking advantage of men trading affection and sex for gifts and security. They act as though men owe it to them. They act like they are so strong and independent, then turn around and quit their jobs as soon as they can get their meat hooks into the nearest available sugar daddy.
         
         It's a two way street, it takes two to tango, and the women aren't all sweet and innocent victims of the so called "patriarchy". they play the game just as much as the guys do and when they loose, they get the luxury of calling foul and getting all the sympathies the world has to offer.

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            TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

            As per the answer I gave Fred Sanford above.
            
            So, let me put it to you this way. Telesalesman are allowed to call you at all times of the night to sell you anything they want to sell you because they want to earn a living?
            
            Because of that, men can hit on women that aren't interested in them, day and night, simply because women are are courting and are looking for men who can provide for them when  they have children, justifies them in hitting on them? Men are allowed to sexually harass women, because women are looking for men who can potentially support them when they have children?
            
            Sorry, that's bs.
            
            What is true is that women are not interested in men who don't have the capacity to support them if and when they have children. As more women than men hold down jobs, and as most women have men in their lives, it's complete bull that all women resign as soon as they have a boyfriend. They don't.
            
            If you want to make that statement, then show me the statistics. A handful of women who do that is speaking for the entire gender.
            
            However, virtually all men hit on women. I want to know what gives men permission to walk up to women and introduce themselves just because they are interested.
            
            If you can't answer that question, you're suffering from your own anger that women aren't interested in your because you, personally, don't have money.

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               Onusonusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

               It is simply a lie to say that virtually all men hit on women. It is a stereotype perpetuated by radical feminists, and I never justified any wrong doings that some men might be guilty of.
               
               The real problem is people like you who constantly pit the sexes against each other when in reality general life at home, on the streets, at work, and in the market place women are safe and so are men. They work together professionally, and in most cases leave each other alone. This is the rule not the exception in America.

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                  TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                  Wow. You don't know a thing about me. For a start, I am not a feminist. I loathe feminist women. I read the papers and I see what happens to other women, so I know that what has happened to me is not unique. I don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that. I also read the stats.
                  
                  I was never safe at work. I consistently had men put their hands one me and make lewd suggestions to me.
                  
                  Nothing more to say to you. Wilderness actually answered the question. Men are socialized to believe it's okay to hit on women.
                  
                  Bye.

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                     Onusonusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                     Victim status achievement unlocked. And you say you're not a feminist? You sure sound like one. Also I don't believe that you were "never safe" at work. Perhaps things are different in South Africa, but in the States it is rare for a woman to be in danger of abuse at the work place. That is except when you are conditioned to perceive every interaction with men as a threat.

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                        Randy Godwinposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                        Or unless Donald Trump is there as well.

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                           Onusonusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                           Donald, or Bill, or Hillary, or Big Johnson. Except Donald wasn't the one who was impeached for using an intern's vagina as a humidor.

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                              Randy Godwinposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                              Correct, Donnie used them as a hand strengthener.

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                                 Onusonusposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                                 Hand strengthener? Weak.

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                           Live to Learnposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                           Lol. I bet you had no problem with Clinton's rape accusations but you imagine crap with Trump.
                           
                           What a joke.

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                              Randy Godwinposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                              Oh, you're one of those who disbelieve a multitude of women who claimed he groped them? Okay....
                              
                              Never mind he bragged about doing so.

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                                 TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                                 None so blind as those who want justification for supporting a particular evil. That is why they always attack ethical people.

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                                 Live to Learnposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                                 Women were actually raped by Bill. Big difference.
                                 
                                 I have no time or sympathy for women who claim to have been ' groped' who wait years to speak out, only commenting when a person's public status changes.
                                 
                                 And, to be honest, complaints that it happens because 'I'm so pretty' fall on deaf ears. My experience in offices working with women is that beautiful women who maintain a professional demeanor and a business attitude are treated completely differently from women who view their looks as a business asset. The second group cries harassment. The first group never has that problem. There's a correlation.

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                              TessSchlesingerposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                              I had plenty of problems with Bill Clinton's and I would never support Hillary Clinton. She should have left her husband. Your problem is that if someone doesn't see it your way, you project the worst possible interpretation on it. And you have no evidence for what you say.

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   Randy Godwinposted 3 years ago

   Because some men pay them for it.

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   TessSchlesingerposted 3 years ago

   It seems some people here don't understand what false equivalence is.
   
   They also seem to justify men hitting on women just because they want to because women marry for money.
   
   Two wrongs don't make a right.
   
   And it doesn't answer my question.

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   TessSchlesingerposted 3 years ago

   The inability of hubbers to answer a question is quite astounding. They wouldn't get  very far on a Mensa test, anyway.
   
   The reason I asking what gives men permission to hit on women is so that I can find a solution and stop it in my own life.
   
   Thanks for your off-topic responses. Bye.

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   TessSchlesingerposted 3 years ago

   Sorry. You are the one without a formal education.
   
   I'm already absolutely sure of my facts. I've done the research a thousand times. You've never done any. You couldn't hold the 'opinions' you do if you had ever read an academic text book or a piece of research. You value money and status above knowledge and study. I have no respect for business.
   
   It is irrelevant whether a single parent mother is divorced or not. I was divorced. I never received a single penny from my ex husband. I brought up my child on my own. There is a very high percentage of divorced women who battle to get payments from their ex husbands.
   
   Sure I could go spend an hour finding all the research for you. I don't have the time or the inclination.
   
   You will remain ignorant for the rest of your life because you don't research anything before you open your mouth.
   
   For a moment there I thought you had something worthwhile to say.
   
   My error.
   
   Goodbye.

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      wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      "Sorry. You are the one without a formal education."
      
      LOL  This from the person that never posts without facts to back it!  (I have a BS in Chemistry from a state university).
      
      "You've never done any."  Again, from one that that claims factual knowledge...but hasn't a clue what research I've done.
      
      "I have no respect for business."
      
      I know you don't respect the activity that puts a roof over your head and food in your belly.  But I don't know what it can possibly have to do with researching a topic...unless your research is showing that houses spring forth from the ground like bananas.
      
      "Sure I could go spend an hour finding all the research for you."
      
      Yes, you could provide links to the research that gave rise to your opinions (as you demand that others do).  But it's too much trouble...because you haven't done any, have you?  Just assume that your opinions are always right because they fit within your twisted version of morality.

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