Was The Death Of Jesus A Substitution Or A Ransom?

1. 64

   PhoenixVposted 8 years ago

   Was The Death Of Jesus A Substitution Or A Ransom?

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2. 74

   Oztinatoposted 8 years ago

   His death was an very complex possibly infinite phenomena that
   was explained by the cultural milieu of the time according to their understanding. Many religions and cults were practicing human and animal sacrifice but JC changed this into self sacrifice of an altruistic kind. Prophetically speaking the blood and sacrifice symbols were able to instantly alter entire indigenous cultures as they nearly all used blood symbols.
   In our time the ideas of self sacrifice and compassion are directly related to JCs philosophy and manner of death.

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3. 56

   The0NatureBoyposted 8 years ago

   When we read John 3:19 we find "this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil" which suggests it was neither a "Ransom" nor "Substitution" but extinguishing the light of truth that the world would be able to run its course. 
   
   Had the world had accepted Yoshua called Jesus' message all of the prophecies to come after his day would have been negated.  When we read where he got up in the temple and read from Isaiah he did not read the entire passage because the rest of that prophecy is to be fulfilled by the second messiah.  Many of Daniel's, Ezekiel's, Jeremiah's and Isaiah's, to name a few, prophecies would not be happening today to usher in the end of the world.  The story of Israel coming out of Egypt would not be a symbol of how the world ends and so many other prophecies would have been eliminated.  Thus, he discarnated and resurrected to save the world until time for its termination.

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4. 53

   Author Samposted 8 years ago

   "Substitution"? No. The death of Jesus is a "Ransom".
   In answering this question, I think the bible should be our bases. So what does the bible says?
   First. "subtitution" is the act of exchanging one thing in place of another. While "Ransom" is a price paid to buy back what have been lost.
   In "substitution" nothing is lost that needed to be buy back, thus no price is involved. But in "Ransom" something is lost and a price is needed to be paid.
   
   Adam lost "perfect human life" both for his children. So "a perfect human life" was needed to buy back what Adam lost.
   
   So Jesus paid not just ransom but 'a corresponding ransom' to buy back for Adam's children what their father lost.
   Ephessian 1:7 says. "by means of him we have the release by Ransom" (NWT)
   
   Jesus had the power to avoid being killed. But he willingly submitted himself to be killed because he knew his death is the price needed to be paid.
   Even when Pilate wanted to release him, he refused to answer his question because he do not wish to be released. Thus, he his death was a ransom in exchange of our own life because we are the ones deserving death

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   1. 52

      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Substitute:  I Cor 46 "However, that was not first which is spiritual,but that which is natural..."

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   2. 60

      Kiss andTalesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      But the time of his arrival
      Has been passed , and now all the fulfillment he said would happen as he sits in Kingdom power is happening,  again rejection of him has not stop his progress
      or his rulership.  the last days we are living them.

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   3. 52

      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      K&T: "Sitting in Kingdom power" is obvious. Utilizing what He sent us (Holy Spirit) is MOST important! 
      
      Yes, this is "the last days" so read Hebrews 3:15 (which comes through "man" sometimes) "Harden not your heart!"

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5. 60

   Kiss andTalesposted 8 years ago

   The death of Jesus was a substitute to replace Adam our fleshlyFather.1Co 15:45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
   Adam sold us into sin and death, the Last Adam/Jesus paid for our future entrance into the New Heavens and earth he will return our future paradise
   Where Adam close the door.
   Jesus paid his life as a ransom for our lives, he was without sin, he had did nothing to deserve death, but he paid for us with his perfect body,
   The difference why a sinful human
   Can not buy his self out of sin and death because he carries the mark himself.
   some one has to pay for him as well
   That is why no human man is God or
   the missiah who can not say they do not sin.
   If they where born of a human Father and mother. They could not be the perfect sacrefice. They could not be The missiah.
   Jesus came directly from the Heavenly Father even thought a human female Mary birth him.
   So he could be the perfect substitute for Adam, as a Father for us.
   and the perfect ransom as a prince of the true God who's value money can not buy.
   The Answer is he is both.

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   1. 52

      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      K&T:  You're right with the exception that Jesus came fm the heavenly Father but THE SPIRIT (GOD;Eph 4:4-6) whose NAME is JESUS (I Tim 3:16) !
      
      Natural has been "substituted" for Spiritual! Too many Scriptures validate  He was a "ransom!"  So bo

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   2. 60

      Kiss andTalesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Norine that is your belief. But according to what the bible says which is my belief
      Jesus was born, of a woman, God our Father  was never born, he is of eternal
      Jer 10:10 But Jehovah is truly God. He is the living God and the eternal King.

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   3. 52

      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      K&T: How do you explain I Tim 3:16 "...GOD was manifested in the flesh...received up into glory?"
      
      Jesus is ALSO "eternal" (Rev 1 "...alpha & omega, the beginning & the end..." Explain if not SAME SPIRIT (Eph 4:4-6) with MANY GLORIES simu

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   4. 60

      Kiss andTalesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Do bibles cross reference Norine,  and why do you put all your precious eggs of faith in one translation of The King James.
      His translation uses God, when other translations simply  uses the word (He )
      Not just one translation but more then 3 I see

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   5. 52

      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      K&T: "Men" translate "new versions" of how "they perceive" bible.  Again, "Don't get hung up on translations but allow HS "guide" U!  How does ur I Tim 3:16 read?

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   6. 60

      Kiss andTalesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Norine again the bible was written under holy spirit now you want to change it because you are limited in your knowledge and education . There is more then one spirit when you support the tiniest white lie
      You support the Father of the lie , satan

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   7. 52

      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      K&T: If don't believe we NOW live under NC, HS sent n Jesus' name, there is no more law except The 10 "coming unto Christ" (for babes), He NOW "writes laws in hearts & minds, we should "observe apostles" & follow Paul; Then Gal 1:6-9!

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   8. 57

      firework23posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Kiss and Tales: you reminded me of a neat scientific fact I felt obligated to share. When a woman becomes pregnant her blood never touches the blood of the fetus, it is protected by the umbilical cord (it filters so nutrients pass but not blood)

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   9. 60

      Kiss andTalesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Great point shared fireworks , the fact that Jesus was God's son , only Marry carried him for birth. He being God's first born Angelic son.

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6. 79

   dashingscorpioposted 8 years ago

   It was mostly political.
   The older traditional Jewish religious followers felt threatened by the rise of this new "cult" that Jesus was leading. They thought if they had the Romans crucify him it would put an end to his influence.
   Jesus was viewed as committing blasphemy by proclaiming he was the son of God but more importantly he was harsh on how the church was being run. Non-conformists or those viewed as a threat to the "status quo" have always been at risk of being killed/silenced even in our own political history.
   It is clear to the Jewish people even today that the Messiah has not yet come. I'm told they believe the Messiah will be a mortal man, born of a normal man and woman. He will be a man very learned in all sections of the Torah, and he will be a very righteous man. He will be of the undisputed scion of David through his father. He will become uncontested ruler in the Land of Israel over all the People of Israel, that is, all Twelve Tribes of Israel. He will have at least one son, who will be king after the Messiah dies a normal death at an advanced age.
   With that as belief you can see why people of that era were upset when Jesus essentially proclaimed he was the Messiah by riding into Jerusalem on a donkey as prophets had predicted.

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   1. 52

      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Dash: Did Jesus LIE in Jn 4:25-26 ? (v26) "...I that speak unto thee AM HE!"  Why do people invent their own "preconceived ideas" of the Word when IT IS WRITTEN!
      
      Sam:  Typo!  I left off Chptr.  Sorry!  Should read I Cor 15:46!

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   2. 79

      dashingscorpioposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Norine there are differences between the Torah and the Bible.
      From a Jewish point of view the Messiah has yet to show up. There is no amount of pointing to scriptures that will change one's religion or beliefs. To each his/her own.

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   3. 60

      Kiss andTalesposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Dashing I am glad you brought that point up
      Because really the word of God has been through different translations some more bias to their religious faith and background.
      While many accept Jesus as the arrived Messiah , many do not.

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   4. 52

      Norine Williamsposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Dash: Well, If they don't "believe" the Messiah died & sent Holy Spirit to "guide us," their "faith" is limited!  If they're "waiting" to be 1 of the 144K, they wait in wrong belief (in vain)! One MUST "believe" ALL or lost! 
      
      K&T:  Yes, "bi

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7. 51

   celafoeposted 8 years ago

   scripture says it was both  so I say both

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