The Lord the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob! The Creator! One who has made all things! Listen Intently! The Lord did not have a mother or father here on earth. Those chosen for the task (Joseph and Miriam) were his earthly guardians. Yes, Miriam birthed him but remember, she was a virgin, there was no sexual contact. It was a spiritual process. The Holy Spirit gives scriptual reference to it's validation.
A very valid point Rhonda. I would also add that God gave us the Father-Son analogy to help us to differentiate between His presence in Heaven being simultaneous with His presence in the flesh upon the Earth. This is possible because He is omnipresent. The truth is that Yahshua was actually God the Father Himself:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Similarly the Holy Spirit is a reference to the Father's presence when that presence is on the Earth. There simply is no trinity.
The concept of the Holy Trinity is used by man to make the difficult concept of Father, Son, Spirit more relatable. There is a trinity in all of us. Flesh, mind, spirit - Father/mind, Son/flesh, Spirit/spirit or soul. Whether you believe in an Almighty God figure or just an almighty collective consciousness, there is a trinity.
Trinity? From The Matrix? False.
No! Neo IS the one, perhaps you should watch The Matrix again.
trinity is false and so is the Muslim rejection of The Son of God false. Satan always find the way how to keep people away from the truth.
Those who have The Son of God they have life those who reject the Son of God can not have right relationship with God either so they can not have life.
Sorry, I don't agree. Joseph for certain was not the biological father of Jesus, but Mary was the biological mother of Jesus. I do not believe she was simply a surrogate.
Jesus had to be born of the flesh, so that he would have to endure what every human on earth has and had to endure: Pain, hunger, thirst, fear, aging and death. Jesus had to walk or ride mules wherever he went, he didn't transport himself anywhere as a spirit would do.
If Jesus had been made purely of spirit, then he would have been as one, and never would have experienced any of these human traits. After all, how do you crucify/put to death a spirit ? I don't believe that can be done.
In Scripture (Acts 15:15-18) “The Lord prediction through the words of the prophet Amos that the Lord Yeshua “a Jew” will die to renew the broken contract from David and in-turn, the New Contract, to include the Gentiles.” This scripture allows understanding to God's purpose of plan. Remember: It had to be an Israelite to die under the curse.(This allowing purpose of God being born in the flesh); for it was the Israelites whom sinned against God and a Jew in-turn to sacrifice for the sin.
The Holy Spirit says: As noted: In Scripture (Colossians 1:16) “The Lord being the creator of all things.” Remember: God is not a Man! God thoughts and ways are that beyond the comprehension of man. The Lord is the Creator. He is God. Reguarding Miriam, (He raised himself up from himself). He Created his life in Miriam and also was her Creator, being the Creator of himself. (He raised himself up from himself). Miriam was and is not the mother of the Lord the Messiah. Miriam was told by God messenger she would conceive a child (A child), not a son. The Spirit said “A Son would be born” meaning: The Almighty Son. Not the son belonging to Miriam. As noted: In Scripture (Isaiah 9:6) “The Holy Spirit speaks of the child Messiah “Son of the Almighty.” God did not inform Miriam as others that she would conceive a (son) but she would conceive a child, one being the awaited Messiah, The savior of the Jews. Miriam, through lost of faith, lost sight of the message from the angel and clung to the Messiah, the Lord as though, her son. And through this created great stress and suffering upon the heart. In Scripture (Isaiah 7:14) The Holy Spirit says: “A child shall be born to a virgin! And she shall call him Immanuel (meaning: “God is with us).” The Holy Spirit did not and do not imply, the child Messiah being the son of Miriam but being the Son of God. What the Spirit is referring to when saying: A Son is giving! Is meaning, a Son being giving from the Almighty Father; (A Son is born) meaning: (God Almighty Son). As noted: In Scripture (Hebrews 5: 5-9)“referenced by the Father” (The Almighty gives honor to his begotten Son.”
God did not choose Miriam but created her for the task, which is why it was spoken to Moses long before: As noted: In Scripture (Acts 7:37) “That a prophet will be raised from among the people of Israel much like himself.” Moses was refering to the Lord Yeshua. Miriam is the vessel used for God plan of purpose (His own future creation). Joseph and Miriam were his earthly guardians. As noted: In Scripture (Luke 2: 41-49) “Miriam and Joseph become frightened of the Lord (the child Messiah) absense and when found; he addresses them of: “Did not, you know I would be in my Fathers house!” Here, now, the Lord is there, confirming his position but Joseph and Miriam are beginning to lose the original message (they did not understand); But God gives understanding in his mercy, for she is a female (having the mother instincts).
These Scriptures review: Further confirmation from the Holy Spirit: In Scripture (Mattathiah/Matthew 12: 46-47) “The Messiah reply toward Miriam his earthly guardian and those known as his brothers and sisters upon their arrival to speak with him out of fear from the rumors said against him; concerning the dangerous plot against him, brewing from the Pharisees and Jewish leaders' their actions all being manipulated by the anger and confusion from Satan).” The Lord statement concerning their visit confirms his position through his reply. He not only addressing Miriam shortsighted faith but also addressing his position of all those belonging to him. Remember: The Lord is the creator (Man being a gift to him from the Father).
It was the Gentiles whom has giving such honor to Miriam, there is no word or books of reference by the Holy Spirit giving of her name. Miriam was giving the task of God as is many of his prophets and sevants. It is man whom brought this about and continue to foster this untruth, being done by their unknowing behavior and practiced from pagan beliefs. There were crowds whom tried to honor this behavor toward some of the disciples: As noted: In Scripture (Acts 14:5-18) “Paul and Barnabas being praised as gods and their actions against the behavior.” It is ritual behavor common to the former belief, which has been fostered by men of no honor, being a tool for Satan to manipulate confusion, thus, God allowed for those today, being used by God to test that of his will.
The Holy Spirit gives warning of such behavior: In Scripture: (Jeremiah 44) “God speaks to Jeremiah of his anger against the Israelites for their behavior in worshiping and sacrificing cakes to “The Queen of Heaven” and other idols.”and as noted: In Scripture (Ezekiel 8:1-18) These Scriptures review: “The examples of the Israelites practice of Idol worship, God anger and wrath against such evil practices.” The Israelites began to worship Idols with their neighboring enemies (the children of Babylon). Therefore, breaking the covenant with God. As noted: In Scripture (1Kings 9:9) The people of Israel abandoned the Lord their God who brought them out of the land of Egypt; they worshiped other god's instead. That is why the Lord has brought this evil upon them.” And also as noted: In Scripture (Hebrews 3:7-10) “Since the Messiah is so much superior, the Holy Spirit warns us to listen to him, to be careful to hear his voice today and not let our hearts become set against him, as the people of Israel did. (9) though they tried his patience sorely; he kept right on doing his mighty miracles for them to see. (10) God says, “I was very angry with them, for their hearts were always looking somewhere else instead of up to me, and they never found the paths I wanted them to follow.” This message is for those today!
Those whom continue to teach and speak of this as being what is not true are lying against the words of the Holy Spirit, which did not say such beliefs to Miriam nor inspire such messages to those in the writing of the scrolls (scripture). Believing God to be the child of a woman on earth, demise his authority as God, thus he, being seen and thought of as (a man), thus, angers God. The Lord Yeshua the Messiah is Lord! The Creator! One who has made all things! Listen Intently! He is the Son of the Almighty. (Miriam is not the wife of the Almighty nor his mate). In Scripture (Hosea 11:9) “God says: “For I am God and not a man;” Therefore, The lying against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable against those knowing the truth and great punishment against those unknowing.
Miriam for a short while lost sight of the original message just as those of others before her and those today; it is common behavior, for Yohanan/John the Baptist too, faltered for a moment: As noted: In Scripture (Mattathiah/Matthew 11:1-6) “Yohanan/John the Baptist torment while imprisoned and his questionable message sent out to Yeshua, as in question of him being the true Messiah; Yeshua response sent back to Yohanan/John the Baptist.
Sometimes the trials are so great against the heart that one for a short while lose focus; but God strength and power always prevail. This is why God do not allow for earthly attachments of those appointed as farmers of his crop (It's God will). Earthly attachments bring forth confusion and one may lose sight of God's reality.
Rhonda - a bit long but well written and studied. IMO, there is one caveat. Man can comprehend the ways and mind of the One. We are created in his image AND LIKENESS, which means we are like him in every way. Humans just seem to want to focus on everything else but getting their minds and hearts and spirits right. It's only at the point of right perfection in all areas that we become one with the One. This is not beyond our scope.
Sure YAHWEH God did not have father of mother. God is Spirit and always was, is and always will be.However Son of God did proceed from God's Spirit and had a mother Mary. So God was the Father of Yahshua The Messiah and Mary was mother. Not in any physical way but through His own Spirit by which Mary came into conception.
because the "lord god" does not exist
That's right. Joseph wasn't too happy when he first got the news. He got over it.
Here is the story of Mary and the birth of Jesus and more...
(This is) a recital of the Mercy of thy Lord to His Servant Zakariya. (2) Behold! He cried to his Lord in secret (3) Praying: "O my Lord! Infirm indeed are my bones, and the hair of my head doth glisten with grey: but never am I unblest O my Lord, in my prayer to Thee! (4) "Now I fear (what) my relatives (and colleagues) (will do) after me: but my wife is barren: so give me an heir as from Thyself― (5) "(One that) will (truly) represent me, and represent the posterity of Jacob; and make him, O my Lord! one with whom Thou art well-pleased!" (6) (His prayer was answered): "O Zakariya! We give thee good news of a son: his name shall be Yahya: on none by that name have We conferred distinction before." (7) He said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son, when my wife is barren and I have grown quite decrepit from old age?" (8) He said: "So (it will be): thy Lord saith, `That is easy for Me: I did indeed create thee before, when thou hadst been nothing!' " (9) (Zakariya) said "O my Lord! Give me a Sign." "Thy Sign", was the answer "shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three nights, although thou art not dumb." (10) So Zakariya came out to his people from his chamber: he told them by signs to celebrate Allah's praises in the morning and in the evening. (11) (To his son came the command): "O Yahya! Take hold of the Book with might": and We gave him wisdom even as a youth. (12) And pity (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity: he was devout (13) And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious. (14) So Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)! (15) Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. (16) She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them: then We sent to her Our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. (17) She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah." (18) He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son." (19) She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" (20) He said: "So (it will be): thy Lord saith `That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': it is a matter (so) decreed." (21) So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place. (22) And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: she cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! Would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" (23) But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; (24) "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: it will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee. (25) "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man say `I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being.' " (26) At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). they said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! (27) "O sister of Aaron! thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" (28) But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" (29) He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; (30) "And He hath made me Blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (31) "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; (32) "So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! (33) Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. (34) It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it "Be", and it is. (35) Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight. (36) But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the Unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a momentous Day! (37) How plainly will they see and hear, the Day that they will appear before Us! but the unjust today are in error manifest! (38) But warn them of the Day of Distress, when the matter will be determined: for (behold) they are negligent and they do not believe! (39) It is We Who will inherit the earth, and all beings thereon: to Us will they all be returned. (40)
Chapter 19 - Maryam.
Translation - Yusuf Ali
How many years after the event did the koran write this?
So, the information it gives, (600 yrs later) is more accurate, or authoritative than the New Testament, written by contemporaries.
And you base your faith on the koran's version, WHY exactly?
I'm a firm believer in the Quran and i know they are the words of God through Mohammad. In my opinion God would know better than contemporaries.
Exactly, God would know better than let 600 years pass by before giving His message. Therefore it is unlikely that the Quran comes from God.
The Jews can say exactly the same to the christians ... God would know better than let 1300-1400 years pass between Moses and Jesus before giving his message, and just like you they reject the Bible.
where do you think the Quran came from?
I think the Quran came from muhamed's own mind.
you can believe what you believe, but fyi ,,, Mohammad was illiterate ... i doubt he knew all the stories of all the previous prophets before his time with such detail and relay them in a poetic style which baffled the poets of his time.
Being illiterate does not mean he didn't know about previous prophets, that's just a fallacy. Many people were illiterate then, books were not yet invented, hence stories were either put into scrolls or told through "chinese whispers"
Even if poets were baffled then, no one is baffled now.
Your arguments are very weak.
This comment shows your lack of understanding also!
The Old Testament actually predicts, through both prophecy, and typology, the coming Messiah, (Jesus Christ)!
The fact that the (majority) of Jews don't believe this only shows their blindness, (as the Book of Romans so clearly points out.) It does not negate it.
In other words, just because these Jews don't believe, doesn't mean it's not so. Again, further study on your part would be helpful.
There are hundreds of instances that point to Jesus Christ as being both, Messiah, and God in the flesh. Not just a prophet, as claimed by Islam.
there is an instance in the bible which i've mentioned before about Jesus talking about another prophet after him. but the people on that forum said it was talking about the holy spirit, even though it did not make that much sense to me. I guess it's all about interpretation at times. with this i can say the same about christians as you did with the Jews ... i.e. that they do not believe which shows their blindness...
Did Jesus ever claim in his own words that he was God... or did people who saw his miracles make him God? ... did he ever say something on the lines of "worship me, my father in heaven and the holy spirit which is within yourselves guiding you to the right path" ... i don't think he did but please correct me if i'm wrong.
I recall no such a statement. Perhaps you can give me your reference for this.
He did say, that one will come in his own name, whom they will receive, "For I have come to you in my Father's name, and you have rejected me. Yet if others come in their own name, you gladly welcome them". John 5;43 (this is believed by many scholars to be referring to the Antichrist). It certainly makes no prediction to Mohammad.
ABSOLUTELY He did. He was condemned to be crucified by the Jewish Religious leaders for EXACTLY that claim.
Surely you would know this!
Here's just one such a claim; "I and the Father are one." John 10;30
Ok, two.. Matthew 26; 59 "Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, so that they might put Him to death. 60They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two came forward, 61and said, “This man stated, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.’” 62The high priest stood up and said to Him, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?” 63But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.
65Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy; 66what do you think?” They answered, “He deserves death!”
He, Jesus sitting on the Throne, SON of God. Caiaphas couldn't believe his ears. This Guy just ondemned Himself right before us. He MUST die for this. (my paraphrase).
Jesus. Just mere prophet. I think not!!
Christians say exactly the same thing about the Bible.
What makes one correct, and the other not?
You have NO MORE evidence that Mohammad was (more) correct
than Christians have that (the many) writers were correct..
Which is accepted in common law, even today?
The testimony of ONE, or
The testimony of MANY?
Surely, no-one would be justly convicted of anything on the account of one!
Over, the total testimony of several (witnesses).
This is in effect what our whole disscussion is about.
but isn't it the word of God against the word of people? obviousely God's word would be more reliable than a thousand people put together.
we have "ahadith" which are accounts of contemporaries talking about what the prophet Mohammad said and did during his time, but we still look at the Quran first then back it up with the hadith. the hadith is the account of many but even those many believed in the word of One.
That may be so, if God came down from Heaven and spoke audibly, so we can all hear Him.
However, that did not happen. Both the writers of the Bible, (esp. New Testament) and Mohammed received the message from "someone, or something". Since both came through a man (or men), we have to determine whether in fact they were speaking from their own, or from divine inspiration.
My argument is, therefore, that the Bible (esp NT), being written by many, speak of THE ONE, in such a unified way, that "faking it" would be near impossible.
I suggest further study, on your part.
This is BLIND faith, based on fear.
From what I've seen, Muslims are WAY TOO sensitive about the prophet Mohammed. He cannot be "offended" or else violence breaks out as a result. This is not good, and does nothing to promote peace, which is what so many Muslims claim it preaches.
Furthermore, the muslims here have often said that the Koran came to correct the mistakes of the Bible. However, this is also a false claim, because it corrects nothing. recognises nothing in the Bible as authoritative, or valid. So, in effect, it seeks to replace it altogether. This would make God look like a demented old man, who forgot what he said in the first place, so he has to redo it, to get it right.
oh i have seen hundreds of people in the last year or two who presently can say with complete unitiy about a living person today, almost similar words to what people said with unity about Jesus. they kiss his feet, prostrate in front of him, and all the other good stuff ... half of them have gone to the extent that they call him god. I've seen this personally with my own eyes ... all this is also done under the name of Islam which is totally wrong ... so however unified the decision is i will always remain doubtful.
Yes i agree that muslims are sensitive about Mohammad. They truly love him ... if you have a child or a sibling or parent or a partner who you truly love ... can you just watch people abuse them as they wish? We don't care about ourselves as much as we care about the Prophet Mohammad. you are right in saying that it does not promote peace, but aren't we allowed to defend our religion when provoked ... anger levels are different between individuals, some will use their speach others will use their fists.
the Quran has similar stories as the Bible doesn't it? talking about Moses Abraham, Jesus, Mary, Gabriel, Lot, Noah and more. We believe in the other books as well ... I follow the Quran with the thought in mind that it's the latest version. Whenever there is a new edition of a book out in the market, people will only refer to the latest version because they think it has all the previous important stuff as well as some new things. you rarely need to refer to the old versions if you have the latest.
This does not cut it. It (the Koran) may be a later writing, for sure, but it is NOT the latest version (of God's revelation) by ANY stretch of anyones imagination!
It may be lots of things, but a version of Biblical text, NEVER.
If it were, then the differences and contradictions of the two are so huge, that even the simplest of minds can see they were not authored by the same person (in this case God).
God almighty has ONE Law, and it does not change.
That is a huge problem as it only shows how conflict and wars start. The fact that the Quran supports and condones lying and fighting others makes it that much worse.
arksys - this is very interesting. I've been waiting for someone to bring something to compare from the Quran. It's a bit much to absorb in one reading. Is it saying basicly the same thing as the Bible?
It's a little different ...
It basically talks about Mary having Jesus with the help of the Holy Spirit (Gabriel) Mary was told not to speak to any human for the next 3 days. when people asked Mary where the baby came from as she was unmarried and pure ...
But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" (29) He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; (30) "And He hath made me Blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (31) "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; (32) "So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! (33) Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. (34)
While pasting this it just came to me ... probably a coincidence but interesting for me. verse 33 says "the day I die and i shall be raised up to life(again) " ... the age of Jesus when he was called back by God was 33. and he will come back in the same age ... and in heaven everyone will be the same age ... 33.
That is interesting because I've often heard the question about what age we will be in heaven. Just one caveat: Gabriel was not the Holy Spirit but an archangel. THE Holy Spirit was god himself.
thats also where we differ.
muslims believe that the Archangel Gabriel is the holy spirit. and the christians believe the holy spirit is with every believer guiding them to the right path. I think in Christianity, it comes from when God made man and breathed into mud/clay, a part of HIS spirit and man came to life...
All of us in the know agree Mary and Joseph were only guardians.
The Real parents of our Lord were Fred and Wilma[the cave persons?]cause they were around Way before Mary and Joseph....so THERE!
is this the weed thread?
The lord has decided to have another child....but this time through Carmen Electra...Non virgin but hotter!!
God has no need for guardians or surrogate mothers of any child he creates. Why go through impregnating a human female, using her body as a surrogate, if this child was never meant to be human in any way, shape or form?
God could just have simply put Jesus right here on earth as a grown man to start doing what Jesus did best: Preaching, teaching, performing miracles and then dying for us, with no conceptions, salutations by an angel to announce the upcoming pregnancy, an actual pregnancy, and then a birth.
God wanted Jesus to become flesh, a human. How do you do that? By having a human parent. It was also stated that Mary and Joseph both descended from the blood line of King David, and we all know that God very much favored David, from the time he was a shepherd boy that became a king until his death.
Why mention bloodlines at all if Jesus was not going to be related whatsoever to Mary, the woman who bore him?
Jesus was human and biologically related to Mary. Since he is descended from Mary, he is also a descendant of King David.
Trinitarians are foolish they deny the son of God is rightful spot they worship him when he didn't come to be worshipped he came to save and to glorify his father but as usual Christians follow the doctrine of men not of the Creator and this is the truth
I'm not Christian. I'm Jewish, Messiah Jew. I'm very familiar with Islam. Those of my family are Jewish and some are Muslim. Through both you and my ancestry we are cousins. The children of Abraham, whom journeyed from his land (Nahor, Iraq) when God told him to leave his people behind, so that he could fulfill his blessings upon him. You, being from the descendants of Ishmael; the son from his second wife (Hagar).
Joseph and Mary were not the parents of the Lord God
Mary was sure mother of Jesus whom the Christians believe as a god or son of god; and which he never was.
Later when Mary married with Joseph; so this way Joseph became Jesus' father under the eye of the Law.
I love you brother, or sister (you never know on the net). Your persona has been an honest seeker here. You did not question the deity of Wankan-Tanka (giver of life) when I told you of the Sioux and how they believe every molecule of the creation is holy ground. I do not know from where you hail. This is an American effort. As such, it is bad form to directly contradict or demean another's faith. I could say that Mohammed was a delusional, self-contradictory power freak . . . but I would never do that. I am pleased to listen to the tenants of your faith and understand why you are such a good neighbor.
Humility, love and patience is the key! Remember: All are worthy of hell, even those of good works. This is why God allows the sun to shine upon all. Ignorance is the stronghold of rebellion and stubborness enhances sin but love and patience breaks down walls of contempt.
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